Listen (3404/804)

[rushy]

By "not just any TARDIS", I presume they meant its' personality, not superpowers.

"Once upon a time, RTD was in charge of those rules, but he's gone. He's totally gone! Do you know who that leaves? Me! The rules of Doctor Who are mine and THEY WILL OBEY ME!!!!" - Steven Moffat, 2011.

In all seriousness, I liked going to Gallifrey, but I didn't like the lack of a proper explanation behind it. Being such a monumental moment, it should've been more focused.

[Gatefan1976]

It's very easy to follow rules... just go with what makes the most sense.
Having Gallifrey be accessible to time travel isn't. Besides, there's only been one set of rules about Gallifrey and that's that going back is a big no-no. Moffat's just being ignorant here. I just don't know how to explain this away. That doesn't happen a lot.

If the Barn from Day of the Doctor is the same barn they went to in Listen, and that Barn is on Gallifrey, why did the Daleks not attempt to stop the Doctor from using the Moment. They were surrounding the entire planet............

[The Flyattractor]

The way I understand it is that the Time Lords won't or can't come forward as that breaks the First Law of Time.

The Time Lords can't look in to "Their OWN Future". The rest of the Universe of Time is an open book for them. At least it used to be that way be fore it got RTD/Moffat'ed

[rushy]

The Time Lords can't look in to "Their OWN Future". The rest of the Universe of Time is an open book for them. At least it used to be that way be fore it got RTD/Moffat'ed

Again, Genesis and Dark Eyes. Plus, you'd think they'd make the end of all existence an exception.

The Daleks didn't try to stop the Doctor because of the sky trenches still defending parts of the planet, plus they didn't know where to find him or exactly what he was going to do.

[The Flyattractor]

Again, Genesis and Dark Eyes. Plus, you'd think they'd make the end of all existence an exception.

The Daleks didn't try to stop the Doctor because of the sky trenches still defending parts of the planet, plus they didn't know where to find him or exactly what he was going to do.

"Genesis" involved the several possibilities of Several Futures. And I don't recall what "dark eyes" was about......other then it was the RTD/Moffatt era and thus all rules were very RUDELY being ignored.

[Blencathra]

Dark Eyes is a Big Finish production, written & directed by Nicholas Briggs, and has nothing to do with Steven Moffat or RTD.

[Blencathra]

Let's face it... none of the adventures set on Gallifrey make any sense if the Time Lords can hop backwards and forwards in their own time stream.

For instance, in The Deadly Assassin we have a whole story about the Doctor trying to prove he didn't assassinate the President. Why didn't the Time Lords just nip back and have a look at who did it? In The Invasion of Time, why didn't the Time Lords have a look into their future, see the Sontaran invasion and prevent it? Or see Omega's attacks or what happened to Borusa? Or prevent the Time War?

But then as Rushy says there is Genesis of the Daleks, but that happened on a different planet.

The only thing that makes sense is if the First Law of Time applies only to Gallifrey itself. The question is whether the Time Lords can't or won't break the First Law. Personally I think it is won't , as it is too deeply entrenched in their psyche. They can't bring themselves to do it.

It is still questionable (as others have said) whether that barn is on Gallifrey at all, and as Clara isn't a Time Lord does she have to obey the Laws of Time?

Oh and another thing... we don't yet know if there will be Consequences resulting from Clara's actions.

[Gatefan1976]

Ah HA!!
Found some stuff. I dunno if you wrote compiled this Blen, but the symbol looks........... Familiar

http://meshyfish.com/~roo/docwho1.html

Just pay attention to the colour code at the beginning

(the bit I am interested in in this case is the laws of time)

[Blencathra]

Ah HA!!
Found some stuff. I dunno if you wrote compiled this Blen, but the symbol looks........... Familiar

http://meshyfish.com/~roo/docwho1.html

No, I didn't write it. I just like the Seal of Rassilon symbol.

[Gatefan1976]

There's a ton of stuff on the site, plus a link to a 240 page tech manual on the tardis
Goodly stuff.

[rushy]

Of course the barn was on Gallifrey. Orange planet, hello?
The Time Lords didn't break the laws of time in any classic stories, because the fate of the universe or even an alteration in established timelines wasn't happening. But in New Who, there's no answer.

Genesis saw them try to change the future in which the Daleks ultimately conquered the universe. A possible future, not a determined one, but it still counts.
In Dark Eyes, the Time Lords alert one of their members that his next incarnation will turn to the Daleks in the future.

[Coco Pops]

Hey you know who might have written "Listen" on the blackboard.


The Master

[rushy]

I get the feeling Moffat doesn't like singular antagonists(Davros, the Master, the Cyber Controller etc.)

[Nth Chevron]

I think the Doctor in this knew what would happen and what was going to happen, which is why he actually listened to Clara and stayed in the TARDIS. Clara was linked to the TARDIS telepathic circuits though a physical connection or hardline i suppose, the Doctor is almost always linked to it due to timelords having some psychic abilities, i think he just wanted to literally see what was going on in her head, via TARDIS proxy sure but still i am sure he could have "spectated" on what was going on between TARDIS and companion.

The implications of what happened were staggering to me when Clara entered that barn.

The whole episode started when the Doctor became fixated on the irrational fear that every child has at some point of something being in a dark bedroom you couldnt see and couldnt hear but was making the hairs on your neck stand up.

Forward to the barn scene, the Doctor is hiding in the barn, under the covers, afraid of the dark, or maybe something else, maybe he actually saw one of the "listeners" and thats what drove him under the blanket.

Clara hears his parents coming and hides under the bed, becoming the very thing that the Doctor is seeking with a fair amount of zeal for him, not his usual curious/eccentric demeanor.

Tbh the whole thing held some "personal quest" kind of thing for Clara, i dont know if the Doctor has seen something on the horizon and wants to expose her to it as a type of training so she remains useful to him when the crap hits the fan.

On the thought of it being something of the Doctor made manifest - remember that between 12 and 13 incarnations the Valeyard is made manifest from his darker natures, which are getting some exercise this series, maybe the whole thing is a side effect of receiving another regeneration quotient from the time lords that is stronger the closer to the initial regeneration (like the Docter being able to heal himself shortly after regenerating from his original set, same with River in "Lets kill Hitler") and then dies down inside of him for awhile until its culmination of the Valeyard.

tl;dr version - great episode, loved it

N.C

[Gatefan1976]

Of course the barn was on Gallifrey. Orange planet, hello?

No, orange sky.

That sky looks blue to me........

The Time Lords didn't break the laws of time in any classic stories, because the fate of the universe or even an alteration in established timelines wasn't happening. But in New Who, there's no answer.

Genesis saw them try to change the future in which the Daleks ultimately conquered the universe. A possible future, not a determined one, but it still counts.

TIMELORD: Ah. Welcome, Doctor.
DOCTOR: What's going on? Don't you realise how dangerous it is to intercept a transmat beam?
TIMELORD: Oh come, Doctor, not with our techniques. We Time Lords transcended such simple mechanical devices when the universe was less than half its present size.
DOCTOR: Look, whatever I've done for you in the past, I've more than made up for. I will not tolerate this continual interference in my life.
TIMELORD: Continual? We pride ourselves we seldom interfere in the affairs of others.
DOCTOR: Except mine.
TIMELORD: You, Doctor, are a special case. You enjoy the freedom we allow you. In return, occasionally, not continually, we ask you to do something for us.
DOCTOR: I won't do it. Whatever it is, I refuse.
TIMELORD: Daleks.
DOCTOR: Daleks? Tell me more.
TIMELORD: We foresee a time when they will have destroyed all other lifeforms and become the dominant creature in the universe.
DOCTOR: That's possible. Tell on.

Foreseeing does not require time travel, just deduction.

In Dark Eyes, the Time Lords alert one of their members that his next incarnation will turn to the Daleks in the future.

I can't answer that as there are no transcripts, so I will take your word for it.

At any rate, the point I am trying to make here is that -only on Gallifrey- can you not travel back and forward in time at. Weather that is due to the laws of time being "local law" or Genetic coding in the time lords or more akin to a "law of nature"