born again Christians

[yasureubetcha]

Will do. Good idea guys (not that prayer is ever a BAD idea .)

[buckner]

Wow was planning on reading everything but kinda to long and boring to read it all...

I'd like to address the question about Good people of other religions going to heaven.. Yes. The Jews are the choosen people they will be going to heaven as long as the individual person is good. I believe the same case with other religions as long as the individual is good then infact he will goto heaven. My friend is a muslim, he respects Jesus Christ(he believes hes only a profit) But all n all he believes almost the same things as christians do, Don't kill, don't steal, Ect. Just because he is of a diffrent religion doesnt mean he should be condemed. I find it disrespectful towards other religions when we claim to be the only right relgion and all others are going to hell, When ever I hear anybody preaching on TV, the radio, or even the streets, one of the first things they say is everyone is going to hell accept christians, but the jews are the chosen race and religion.

As for John Kerry not gettin communion, although I disagreed with Kerry one day agreed with him the next and then disagreed with him again, my gosh he flipped around like a fish, I'd have to say it was wrong for the catholic church to intervine, I heard that they said if they voted for Kerry it would be a sin, and I disagree with that, i believe it would be a mistake but thats my own personal belief and I respect those who believe otherwise. The reason however your bishop may have denied him, is because he supports abortion.
Ever since the 2004 election theres been huge ammounts of info on the morality of Abortion. I believe Abortion to be a sin, and I believe it to be the slaughter of innocent children, yet others belive its a womens right completely forgetin about the childs right.

A little back info on Abortion... Many abortion clinics were set up in urban areas around black communities, several chains of abortion clinics were set up by those with ties to the KKK. Their Goal was to get single mothers of the blackrace to get abortions and eventually destroying the black population in America over time. However now the clinics are more for everyone, but are found more in urban areas. I've seen reports on how abortion clinics were placed on CNN and Fox News during election time. Abortion Clinics are both racist and against the christian religion, which i nthe ten commandments says thall shall not kill, therefore don't kill kid! however the racial issue of it took a backseat as it appears more white women are getting abortions now, It is still a sin and it is still wrong.

As for the foundation of our laws. I realise that the laws may be based on Roman laws, however as someone said rome became corrupt. Our founding Fathers wished to improve upon their laws, and our foudning fathers were very religious(atleast a good portion were) I believe they based the government on christian laws and ideals in hoping that they wouldnt become corrupt however they made it clear that there wasa seperation in chruch and state, but the Voice of the church is no longer beign heard, which I believe is why we are becoming corrupt, there is no religious(any relgion would really do) voice reaching out and saying hey wait a minute 13 year hookers are wrong, mass murder of children is a sin, ECT. We hear it on the news, and they always show the christians no body likes doing it, by that i mean the "We're right your wrong" christians the ones that never listen to other sides and give christians a bad name.

So any scripture 2 back up ur belief that good people go 2 heaven just off the top of my head (i will not rant ) "I am the way the truth the life no man cometh 2 the Father but by me" "I am the door by me if any man enter in he shall be saved" "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." those are just a few verses that support that only people who ask Jesus 2 forgive their sins will be saved.

[Jace021903]

Wow first time that I have ever saw this thread My granddad just got diagnosed with cancer yesterday so please pray for him. Also my brother is in Iraq outside of Baghdad.

So sorry to hear about your granddad. I will keep him and your brother in my prayers.

Jace

[buckner]

thanks

[Jace021903]

Wow was planning on reading everything but kinda to long and boring to read it all...

I'd like to address the question about Good people of other religions going to heaven.. Yes. The Jews are the choosen people they will be going to heaven as long as the individual person is good. I believe the same case with other religions as long as the individual is good then infact he will goto heaven. My friend is a muslim, he respects Jesus Christ(he believes hes only a profit) But all n all he believes almost the same things as christians do, Don't kill, don't steal, Ect. Just because he is of a diffrent religion doesnt mean he should be condemed. I find it disrespectful towards other religions when we claim to be the only right relgion and all others are going to hell,

Whew, there's alot going on in that paragraph.

You may want to go back and read a post by Easter Lily a few pages back--she does a good job of explaining how God will judge the nations of the world based on Romans 1 and 2.

None of us have any disrespect toward other religions--I am very pro-religious freedom. No one should be forced to follow any particular religion.
I have chosen of my own free will to believe the Bible. And the Bible is very clear about the way to heaven. We didn't make this stuff up.
Someone just posted several Bible verses so I will just add a couple:

"About whom else has he said, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

"Neither is there salvation in any other for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

"That at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2:10-11

Seems pretty clear to me.




The Jews are indeed God's chosen people. "I will bless them that bless you and curse them who curse you." Gen. 12:3. Jesus offered salvation first to the Jewish people; He presented himself as their promised Messiah and they rejected him. Jesus wept over them.

"Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you under my wings as a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not."

The very early church was made up entirely of Jewish converts. We as Gentiles wouldn't even have the Gospel except God called the apostle Paul to almost single-handedly take the Gospel to the rest of the world.




If you believe that good works will get you to heaven, how many do you have to do to achieve that goal? If you are someday standing before God, what would you say to convince him to let you in?

Because the Bible makes it very clear that good works don't count--not for salvation.

"All our righteous acts are as filthy rags."

Instead, God offers us...Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

mercy (mercy=not getting what we have earned--eternal separation from God)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us."

and grace (grace=getting what we have not earned--eternal life.)

"For by grace are you saved, through faith, it is the gift of God, not from works so that no man may boast."



God has a plan and his plan involves Christians telling others about the Gospel, but it also involves God's spirit moving on the hearts of people and them searching for him--some will accept and others will reject it. But God will never reject anyone who truly wants to find him.

"He rewards those who diligently seek him."

"He is not willing that any should perish".... but he also gave us free will.

The Bible calls God a "righteous judge." We may not understand God's plans because, "his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways," but we can trust him to sort it all out.

I like this comparison: Trying to get our brains to comprehend the mind of God is like trying to teach trigonometry to an ant--we just don't have that
capacity.

The book of Romans deals with alot of questions of whether God is fair or not. "What shall we say then, is God unjust? Not at all!"

You might find it interesting to read. I would also suggest using a good commentary to read along with it unless you have done a lot of Bible study. If you want a recommendation for a commentary let me know.

Take Care,

Jace

[buckner]

I saw Joel Olsteen on larry king live and i have lost all respect for him

[Jace021903]

Wow, I am long winded tonight...


But I just got this email and I thought it went along with some of the conversations that we have had about the Ten Commandments and the basis of our government.



By Andy Rooney

DID YOU KNOW? As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?
As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?
There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW?
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

DID YOU KNOW?
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

DID YOU KNOW?
Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law--an oligarchy....
the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?
The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!! "

Okay, that last part was a bit harsh, but interesting information all the same.

Jace

[spg_1983]

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!! "

lol and the inherent bigotry and intolerance of christians rises up again! ive just been lurking instead of posting but after this bit I just had to say something. thank you for reaffirming the fact that christians are intolerant zealots! also where is the source for your data? because according to the national census organization, the number of people that believe in your god is actually only 50%

[Darth Buddha]

lol and the inherent bigotry and intolerance of christians rises up again! ive just been lurking instead of posting but after this bit I just had to say something. thank you for reaffirming the fact that christians are intolerant zealots! also where is the source for your data? because according to the national census organization, the number of people that believe in your god is actually only 50%

Exactly. And even that number surely includes faiths other than Christian.

Moreover, just because the majority thinks a thing doesn't make it right. The Bill of Rights was created to limit the ability of the majority to do things through the government.

After all, one could argue that a majority of Germans voted in the election that brought the Nazis to power.. one might even suspect that a majority of Germans were fine with what happened to the Jews. Does the mere fact that a majoirty feels a certain way make it right? Did the fact that a majority of Romans felt their religion was right mean they were correctd to put their religion in their state, and suppress the Christians? Do you now want to be Rome?

There is such a thing as the tyranny of the majority. That is especially true when you add that most caustic of beliefs, the one that a group of people has that they, and they alone, have the one true revelation.

To those Christians who understand and respect the separation of church and state, I salute you. To those who do not? I fear you. You remind me of Bin Laden, Pol Pot, and every religious intolerant on the face of the planet. I assure you, they wouldn't understand the separation of church and state either.

Did you know: George Washington wasn't a Christian?

Did you know: Thomas Jefferson wasn't either?

Since quoting the 86% number and thinking it means something clearly shows you don't understand the idea, I refer you to this thread to attend to some issues you missed in your education.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...son#post283984

I made several posts in a row to get all the content in... so follow it until the end. Maybe it will help open your eyes, maybe it won't, but at least you won't be able to say you haven't been given opportunity to learn.

Sometimes I think Christians need to be hammered on by another Rome for a century or two, or weighed upon by some orthodoxy they don't agree with like that which drove so many (Christian) religious minoriities to the shore of this country. Maybe THEN they'd remember why keeping the government and religion separate makes sense. As is now? Seems to me that they want to become the Christian equivalent of Iran... a religious state.

[spg_1983]

Exactly. And even that number surely includes faiths other than Christian.

your right it does. that includes christians, jews and muslims who all believe in the same god, and actually its less than 50% i forget the exact number, ill try to find the report later but im heading out for the day soon.

[warmbeachbrat]

lol and the inherent bigotry and intolerance of christians rises up again! ive just been lurking instead of posting but after this bit I just had to say something. thank you for reaffirming the fact that christians are intolerant zealots! also where is the source for your data? because according to the national census organization, the number of people that believe in your god is actually only 50%

Um, I think if you read the post carefully, you will find that it is a quote by Andy Rooney (an avowed curmudgeon) who is sometimes over the top and does not choose his words carefully. Who knows where he got his figures--it's not the point of the post. It's also not entirely fair to not quote Jace's comment about that last sentence of Rooney's being a bit harsh. I believe the main point of the post was the interesting things that came before.

At any rate--Christians are constantly told to shut up and butt out, so I hardly think telling someone else to shut up is bigotry--rude and obnoxious, perhaps, but not bigotry.

[warmbeachbrat]

To those Christians who understand and respect the separation of church and state, I salute you. To those who do not? I fear you. You remind me of Bin Laden, Pol Pot, and every religious intolerant on the face of the planet. I assure you, they wouldn't understand the separation of church and state either.

....

Sometimes I think Christians need to be hammered on by another Rome for a century or two, or weighed upon by some orthodoxy they don't agree with like that which drove so many (Christian) religious minoriities to the shore of this country. Maybe THEN they'd remember why keeping the government and religion separate makes sense. As is now? Seems to me that they want to become the Christian equivalent of Iran... a religious state.

Bin Laden? I hardly think Christians are running around blowing up innocent people these days. Christians want a chance to share their faith not force it on other people.

Pol Pot? Please! His regime was atheistic not religious. Communism and its attendant atheism were responsible for 100 million deaths last century. It just isn't a valid comparison.

Believing you are right does not turn you in to Bin Laden (or Pol Pot)--it is believing that others must believe as you do to the point of death that does. No Christian I know believes any such thing. Christians want others to believe in God, but force nowhere enters the picture. I don't believe God wants to be worshipped or followed by unwilling people. I'm sorry that history and misguided people didn't get that. Comparing fellow countrymen to Bin Laden or Pol Pot seems a little over the top to me.


I sincerely hope you were engaging in a little hyperbole referring to Christians being hammered by another Rome. Persecution, torture, martydom and death seem a little extreme to wish on other human beings. I don't think anyone should suffer as Christians did under Rome--but maybe that's just me.

There are Christians all over the world who are being persecuted, tortured, and killed at this very moment (many in Islamic and atheistic countries). My heart breaks for them and for those people that afflict them. Maybe if you had read further down the thread you would have seen Jace's post about a friend of hers who was shot in Brazil for his faith.

Christians absolutely do *not * want to become a religious state like Iran. As I said before, Christians want a chance to share their faith, not have to hide it away as if it's something shameful. Like it or not, much of this country was founded by religious people. Much of our heritage--buildings, founding documents, monuments, commemorations--have a religious history or component. It is not that Christians want to establish the ten commandments everywhere, it's that we don't want our history taken from us and its memory eradicated from our nation. To indulge in my own bit of hyperbole--scouring the countryside and taking down the ten commandments and crosses, etc. that have been there for a good long time reminds me of the Taliban destroying the buddhist statues in Afghanistan.


Sorry to be so long, but you packed a lot into that post that I wanted to respond to.

[spg_1983]

Um, I think if you read the post carefully, you will find that it is a quote by Andy Rooney (an avowed curmudgeon) who is sometimes over the top and does not choose his words carefully. Who knows where he got his figures--it's not the point of the post. It's also not entirely fair to not quote Jace's comment about that last sentence of Rooney's being a bit harsh. I believe the main point of the post was the interesting things that came before.

At any rate--Christians are constantly told to shut up and butt out, so I hardly think telling someone else to shut up is bigotry--rude and obnoxious, perhaps, but not bigotry.

ok thats my bad, i should have edited the quote header to reflect that that was andy roony speaking and not jace, ill do that now, but my comments remain unchanged, where is the supporting documentation for any of it? i know jace didnt say it, andy rooney did, but since andy rooney is not what i would call and unbiased or informed source, there needs to be some actual documentation to back up those facts.

[puddlejumper747]

thank you for reaffirming the fact that christians are intolerant zealots!

Even if they were, that speaks absolutely nothing about the objective truths that they believe in. It simply demonstrates that, unfortunately, the majority of Christians you've met (online?) either aren't truly behaving in the most Christian-like manner, or simply aren't conveying the tone of their messages properly over the internet.

[spg_1983]

Even if they were, that speaks absolutely nothing about the objective truths that they believe in. It simply demonstrates that, unfortunately, the majority of Christians you've met (online?) either aren't truly behaving in the most Christian-like manner, or simply aren't conveying the tone of their messages properly over the internet.

it has nothing to do with the internet, having been raised catholic and then waking up and rejecting it, and being a political activist i have seen, and interacted with more than my fair share of christians that i can make a fully informed opinion.