General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Gategrrl]

First, shippers don't see it that way. In fact, we feel that until recently, Jack has been the more openly shippy of the two.J.

No kidding. I've never seen Jack respond with any kind of interest beyond that of Superior Officer to a younger less experienced officer. Or, later, respond at all.

Second, is this just your opinion, or is this the way anti-shippers feel in general? I'm not being sarcastic here; I ask, because there seems to be a certain inconsistency of opinion. If, in fact, Jack does not harbor shippy feelings toward Sam ("unresponsive to her as an ice cube")--as your comment suggests you believe--then how could ship be responsible for interfering with Jack and Daniel's friendship (or any other friendships on the show), as has been repeatedly claimed? There's no ship on Jack's part and thus could not have any effect on Jack and Daniel's relationship.

Heh. We could get into a meta-argument here. It interferes because the writers seem unable to write both in the same episodes. Seems like some sort of blind spot. If they were able to, then I don't think there'd be a tug-o-war between different fan-camps. Kinda like in the first seasons.

Oops, forgot to answer your first question! Of course there's an inconsistency of opinion. Everyone has different feelings about the show, even folks who don't like the ship, or even despise it. I can't claim to answer for anyone else, cuz I'm me: I'm not a crowd. But, having said that, I know a fair number who've never seen Jack show any kind of extra caring for Carter than he shows for all his team.

Another example of inconsistency: there were a ton of anti-Jack comments after "Grace", that his behavior was disgraceful and ridiculous, and all because Sam was missing. Leaving aside the fact that I don't agree in that assessment of Jack's behavior, if ship is all in Sam's head and Jack doesn't care at all, then I guess there would have to be another reason for Jack's presumed disgraceful behavior in Grace, wouldn't there?

Hm. Grace is not one of my favorite episodes, and was extremely disappointing. As character development for Carter, it failed miserably. IMO, of course. Others love it. Of course Jack cares about Carter. He doesn't have to be IN LOVE with her to care. Just as he doesn't have to be in love with Teal'c to show concern when Teal'c was trapped in that battle simulation in Avatar. Or in love with Daniel or Hammond or any other person on the base, in order to care for them. Anti-Jack comments? Is commenting on Jack's behavior, as portrayed in the show, commenting on Jack's worth? From what I remember, Jack's behavior was baffling, rude, perplexing, and out of character. Maybe he'd had news of his ex-wife's father dying and didn't tell anyone how much it upset him. Perhaps Sarah, his ex, broke a dinner date with him that night. Maybe his honkin' big truck was repossessed. Who knows? So many things happened off-screen last season. Who's to tell?

Third, are you seriously suggesting that Sam is making it all up?

Making all what up? Her romantic "relationship" with Jack? From my position, yeah. It's all in her head. Which is why to she's kinda pathetic to me. Everyone has faults and character flaws. Too bad TPTB chose a waffling Love Life for Carter. It's so cliche, as Jack would say. And uninteresting.

Fourth, RDA said that the "titilating tapdance" between Sam and Jack would need to be addressed. I guess *he* doesn't think it's all in Sam's head.

So? And? But? Therefore? Good for him. Guess he didn't want hate mail going his way either, like the hate mail goes to AT aka her character's morals. Hate to think of the reaction he'd get if he expressed a desire to end any kind of "ship" with Carter. I don't think he wants to be put on the chopping block like AT is. Poor woman. Taking the blame for all TPTB's indecisiveness and inconsistent characterization.

Fifth, as to putting Sam first, for many shippers, she's their favorite character. And besides, we know that Jack would say, "Ladies first."

Traditionally in fandom, the character who's actor is higher in the credits in a pairing is listed first: so, it would be J/S, and S/J would be the pairing of Sam/Janet. I don't think all those female fans are into femslash. Or are they? Hmmm.

[Shipperahoy]

I personally use both S/J and J/S and have given no thought as to any kind of deeper purpose behind it. I probably use S/J more just because I see it more around here.

As for Grace, I didn't see anything inappropriate with Jack's behaviour. He was upset because Sam was missing. He didn't break any regs or do something irrational that put others in danger or anything, he was just worried. Personally I was surprised that people were upset with it because I saw it as one of those ambiguous things that both sides could be happy with. Anti-shippers could see it as concern for a team mate with no romantic implications and shippers could see it as concern for the woman he loves.

[Madeleine]

(replying to Dani who said - I paraphrase - that Jack is not shippy at all towards Sam.)

Second, is this just your opinion, or is this the way anti-shippers feel in general?

I can't speak for all of us, but I know enough who feel that way that I run out of toes

I'm not being sarcastic here; I ask, because there seems to be a certain inconsistency of opinion.

But it only really matters if the inconsistency comes from the same person, right?

If, in fact, Jack does not harbor shippy feelings toward Sam ("unresponsive to her as an ice cube")--as your comment suggests you believe--then how could ship be responsible for interfering with Jack and Daniel's friendship (or any other friendships on the show), as has been repeatedly claimed? There's no ship on Jack's part and thus could not have any effect on Jack and Daniel's relationship.

In the later part of s7 the writers were so keen to inject S/J ship that they filled RDA's schedule with Jack & Sam scenes, complete with shippy music. He spent very little time with Teal'c and Daniel. That's where I feel S/J ship is detrimental to Jack and Daniel's (and Jack and Teal'c's) friendships.

Maybe I'm overreacting; I'll know after s8. I don't know yet whether the move towards using as much of Jack's screentime as possible with Sam or Guest Stars is a trend or a blip. It's certainly got the potential to go either way.

But the amount of scenes together and the shippy music have no bearing on how Jack acts with Sam. He still seems just as embarrassed and wishing-he-were-elsewhere during the 'shippy' scenes as ever, to me.

Another example of inconsistency: there were a ton of anti-Jack comments after "Grace", that his behavior was disgraceful and ridiculous, and all because Sam was missing. Leaving aside the fact that I don't agree in that assessment of Jack's behavior, if ship is all in Sam's head and Jack doesn't care at all, then I guess there would have to be another reason for Jack's presumed disgraceful behavior in Grace, wouldn't there?

I thought his behaviour was disgraceful. How dare he not appear to care about someone on his team being missing. How dare he not even show an interest in Daniel's suggestion for a search plan. But what does his lack of commitment to rescuing Sam have to do with ship?

Third, are you seriously suggesting that Sam is making it all up?

I don't know what Dani was suggesting. I know Sam isn't making anything up. Since Grace she's been making it very clear that her feelings for O'Neill are having an effect on her behaviour. So I know they are real. She says in Grace that she doesn't know how he feels for her, so there's not much 'making it up' going in terms of her imagining he feels the same, either.

Fourth, RDA said that the "titilating tapdance" between Sam and Jack would need to be addressed. I guess *he* doesn't think it's all in Sam's head.

That just bemuses me. If he thinks there's something there (as opposed to thinking there's a tendency among the writers to write shippy scenes, which is another possible interpretation of that), then why does he put emotion and spirit into his scenes with Daniel, Harry Maybourne or Hammond and not with Sam? It's a puzzle.

as to putting Sam first, for many shippers, she's their favorite character. And besides, we know that Jack would say, "Ladies first."

I didn't realise that S/J was the official term and J/S was a noromo construct! I tend to alternate, on the grounds that if I vary things like that then people will be less likely to read anything into which team member I put first in any list

[Jafana]

As for Grace, I didn't see anything inappropriate with Jack's behaviour. He was upset because Sam was missing. He didn't break any regs or do something irrational that put others in danger or anything, he was just worried. Personally I was surprised that people were upset with it because I saw it as one of those ambiguous things that both sides could be happy with. Anti-shippers could see it as concern for a team mate with no romantic implications and shippers could see it as concern for the woman he loves.

I share your confusion Shipper, and I think that for the most part the best kind of ship is the ambiguous type. That way, everyone can interpret it anyway they like. I mean, they're going to do that anyway, so if the writers or the actors can find a very ambiguous camera shot, or touch or look then we can all be happy. Anti-shippers can see it as friendship, shippers can see it as more, and those with apathetic feelings can ignore it completely reading nothing more into it. And I think that's what makes it a great show. Until recently there hasn't that much overt ship. I think it should stay that way.

[Dani347]

Okay, if we're going to get exact, any implication that there might be a chance for ship between Jack and Sam has resulted, imo, in a lack of caring that I saw between Jack and Daniel. (And, I won't bother with a long disclaimer on what I mean by caring. Believe whatever you want.) Anytime they put the cards on the table, regardless of whether or not I think Jack plays along, results in my having the impression that Jack having an attitude of barely knowing Daniel was alive, and worst, not caring. So far, they haven't been able (to me) to have J/S ship (I'll use the combo I'm used to. I think everyone knows who I mean) and J/D friendship. Other shows have managed ship and friendship, but this one either can't or doesn't want to. And, if I had my way, the one that would get sacrificed is the ship, every time.

[the dancer of spaz]

Okay, if we're going to get exact, any implication that there might be a chance for ship between Jack and Sam has resulted, imo, in a lack of caring that I saw between Jack and Daniel. (And, I won't bother with a long disclaimer on what I mean by caring. Believe whatever you want.) Anytime they put the cards on the table, regardless of whether or not I think Jack plays along, results in my having the impression that Jack having an attitude of barely knowing Daniel was alive, and worst, not caring. So far, they haven't been able (to me) to have J/S ship (I'll use the combo I'm used to. I think everyone knows who I mean) and J/D friendship. Other shows have managed ship and friendship, but this one either can't or doesn't want to. And, if I had my way, the one that would get sacrificed is the ship, every time.

Uh, I think you basically just said that Jack/Daniel friendship has been sacrificed in the name of Sam/Jack romance, right? While it's not as blatantly obvious and heavy, almost to the point of being the Jack and Daniel Comedy Hour (gross exaggeration, by the way), like it was in, oh, say, Seasons 1 through 5, I'd have to say that I respectfully disagree with that sentiment.

If one does not want to think of Sam and Jack as a modern-day Romeo and Juliet, than think of them as friends, and consider this observation:

In Season Seven's Grace, Jack acted irrationally. Yes, I agree. He was VERY worried about Sam being out in the cosmos all alone, without any back-up from SG-1. Some might call this "shippy behavior."

However, back it up a year, and you're watching Jack deal with Daniel's death in an equally irrational way, to the point of ignoring his own feelings, as well as the feelings of his friends.

Bring it forward two and a half years, and you'll see Jack being VERY agitated in a recent episode of the eighth season, when it looks like Daniel's life is being held in the balance. This ep will remain unknown for potential spoiler-prevention purposes.

And there are more instances than these. Try "Fire and Water" - for Daniel; "Entity" - for Sam; as well as many others that have presented themselves throughout the series.

My point is, when Daniel and Sam are involved, Jack tends to kind of LOSE it. And it's not when they're in peril AROUND him; no, it tends to be when they're THERE and he's HERE. Teal'c, for some reason, must seem like he can handle himself when he's in trouble elsewhere, because I don't remember Jack acting like that for Teal'c. Nevertheless, we all know that the bond Teal'c and Jack share is very deep.

However, the relationship between Jack/Daniel and Jack/Carter has always been a source of speculation for fans for years... until now. Daniel and Sam ARE Jack's weak spot, whether anti-shippers want to recognize that or not. For the discussion's sake, Sam might not just be Jack's weak spot because of some canon-induced romance. She was his friend, IMO, before they started caring about each other, and he was hers. That was established early on in season one.

Problems occur, however, when SOME Daniel fans and SOME Daniel/Jack friendship fans become threatened by impending Jack/Sam friendship or Sam/Jack romance. Rather than appreciating the Daniel/Jack moments that have filled our screen for MUCH longer, these fans lash out - and mostly against the Sam character.

But that's besides the point, I suppose, isn't it?

I'd like to think that we'd all at least CONSIDER choosing the team above any one or two characters. This show was developed first and foremost as Stargate SG-1 - not Stargate: Love Circle of Fate, not Jack and Daniel's Merry Adventures, and certainly not The Stargate Bashing Hour. I do have my favorite MOMENTS, and my tendencies to side with other characters, as that has been made quite clear, however, I'd like to think that fairness and objectivity is involved when we think about the series.

By the end of the show, wouldn't it be nice to say that we didn't FLAME anyone in an effort to achieve/disprove Sam and Jack ship? Wouldn't it be nice to say, "Hey, that great show had a fantastic run, with fantastic people behind it, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to see it, at least," or something to that effect?

I know that, after all of the time I've invested into this show, day in and day out, JUST AS A FAN, that I would like to do just that.

[Gategrrl]

[QUOTE=Gategrrl]
Gee, a more-holier-than-thou 'tude towards others who have left the fold... whups, missed the smiley face at the end there. Were you really kidding there? Or is that a real attitude amongst J&S shippers?[ /QUOTE]

by Darkquee1
Not holier-than-thou at all. I was merely responding to threats that the anti-shippers would be doing their best to make shippers miserable. Be assured, that if someone does try to engage in that behavior with me, I will most certainly put them on ignore. I see no reason to indulge them.

Threats? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! How could a person who dislikes/despises the J&S ship threaten someone else on a well-organized forum such as this? Boggles the mind, it does. I think with mods on patrol like Madeleine and Gypsy and Majorclangor, that's not likely to happen.

And of course, placing someone on ignore is a time-tested solution. Of course, it would mean you'd have to place this entire thread on ignore if certain spoilers come true later on in the season.

But hey -- Trust the Powers That Be, right?
(no)

[TameFarrar]

By the end of the show, wouldn't it be nice to say that we didn't FLAME anyone in an effort to achieve/disprove Sam and Jack ship? Wouldn't it be nice to say, "Hey, that great show had a fantastic run, with fantastic people behind it, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to see it, at least," or something to that effect?

I know that, after all of the time I've invested into this show, day in and day out, JUST AS A FAN, that I would like to do just that.

Well said Dancer very well said

[Gategrrl]

Uh, I think you basically just said that Jack/Daniel friendship has been sacrificed in the name of Sam/Jack romance, right? While it's not as blatantly obvious and heavy, almost to the point of being the Jack and Daniel Comedy Hour (gross exaggeration, by the way), like it was in, oh, say, Seasons 1 through 5, I'd have to say that I respectfully disagree with that sentiment.

So, you think there was too much Daniel and Jack in the first five seasons, and not enough of Sam and Jack.

If one does not want to think of Sam and Jack as a modern-day Romeo and Juliet, than think of them as friends, and consider this observation:

In Season Seven's Grace, Jack acted irrationally. Yes, I agree. He was VERY worried about Sam being out in the cosmos all alone, without any back-up from SG-1. Some might call this "shippy behavior."

Some. Others might call his "worry" pretty destructive and UNcaring. He wanted to give up. What's romantic about THAT? Come to think of it, Jack's been more of a giver-upper when it comes to ALL of his team lately (Zero Hour). It's making him look like a fool.

However, back it up a year, and you're watching Jack deal with Daniel's death in an equally irrational way, to the point of ignoring his own feelings, as well as the feelings of his friends.

Hmm. His best friend passed on, he was upset, and he shut down, while Carter kept at him, ignoring how he might be having to deal with it. Jack's not the talking type. Of course, that's my opinion.

Bring it forward two and a half years, and you'll see Jack being VERY agitated in a recent episode of the eighth season, when it looks like Daniel's life is being held in the balance. This ep will remain unknown for potential spoiler-prevention purposes.

Yes. He was.

And there are more instances than these. Try "Fire and Water" - for Daniel; "Entity" - for Sam; as well as many others that have presented themselves throughout the series.

Jack's a caring kind of guy. His team is important to him. That much is clear. That is, when he doesn't give up on them. Spoilers not given.

My point is, when Daniel and Sam are involved, Jack tends to kind of LOSE it. And it's not when they're in peril AROUND him; no, it tends to be when they're THERE and he's HERE. (snipped material about Teal'c).

Okay. Again, Jack cares about his friends.

However, the relationship between Jack/Daniel and Jack/Carter has always been a source of speculation for fans for years... until now. Daniel and Sam ARE Jack's weak spot, whether anti-shippers want to recognize that or not. For the discussion's sake, Sam might not just be Jack's weak spot because of some canon-induced romance. She was his friend, IMO, before they started caring about each other, and he was hers. That was established early on in season one.

Okay. Here's where we veer off into the badlands. Two assumptions: You assume that anti-J&S shippers think Carter is unimportant to Jack. That is not true. She obviously is, and I think it's ungracious to imply that a whole category of fans think that it isn't so. The other assumption: that they care for each other more than they should. That's a J&S shipper's assumption. Jack seemed pretty damned uncomfortable around Carter for many episodes in the beginning. Frankly, he still does. IMO.

Problems occur, however, when SOME Daniel fans and SOME Daniel/Jack friendship fans become threatened by impending Jack/Sam friendship or Sam/Jack romance. Rather than appreciating the Daniel/Jack moments that have filled our screen for MUCH longer, these fans lash out - and mostly against the Sam character.

Okay, here's the volcano. Here I thought SOME J&S shippers were threatened by Daniel's very presence, that he was a distraction for Jack, and takes Jack's attention away from Carter! Um, I don't feel threatened by the J&S ship, btw. I think it's pathetic, a loser of a "storyline" and shows Carter in a most unprofessional and unflattering light, but I'm not threatened by it.

Let me get this straight, and tell me if my summary of your views in your post are correct. I don't want misunderstandings. So, there was too much Jack and Daniel friendship stuff in the first five years. There was so much Jack and Daniel interaction, that Jack and Daniel fans should suck it up and let Carter have her day in the sun with her Hero Jack? Is that it? Then, Daniel came back, and now Daniel fans are threatened by the very shadow of Star-Crossed Lover's Romance between a General and his subordinate officer. In the Airforce. ?????? I don't get the transition here. The NonJ&S shippers I know hate the ship more for the fact that it's ruined a great character -- Sam Carter, and made her into a character template for a Boons&Mill or Harlequinn Romance drivel novel. Oh, and the reasons Dani pointed out.

But that's besides the point, I suppose, isn't it?

Nice time to have a dig at Daniel fans and Jack&Daniel fans, and then go on to ask for clemency and good vibes.
This is the SHIP DISCUSSION THREAD. Not the Bash at Daniel and his fans Thread.

By the end of the show, wouldn't it be nice to say that we didn't FLAME anyone in an effort to achieve/disprove Sam and Jack ship? Wouldn't it be nice to say, "Hey, that great show had a fantastic run, with fantastic people behind it, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to see it, at least," or something to that effect?

There's flaming, and then there's discussion. Flaming shouldn't happen here. So that's a false worry.

Are you really trying to say, "this thread is here because of some disgruntled Daniel fans who've had more than enough time with their two favorite characters together but we poor deprived J&S shippers deserve more time with OUR two favorite characters together, so be quiet, those of you who don't like the Ship, and lump it"?

I know that, after all of the time I've invested into this show, day in and day out, JUST AS A FAN, that I would like to do just that.

That's wonderful. And I, who spend a lot of time with it also, would like to look back on this wonderful show after its ended its run, and think, "Gee, how wonderful my favorite show ended with the team together, Jack still a General, Daniel doing the archeology that he loves, Carter married to Pete and happy and doing her thing and solving techno puzzles, and Teal'c a leader of his Free Jaffa people. And with all of them with their honor intact."

Not sure what you mean by the "Just as a Fan" bit. Were you expecting to be hired at Bridge? I'm not sure what you meant by that. We're all fans. Puzzled here.

[Dani347]

Uh, I think you basically just said that Jack/Daniel friendship has been sacrificed in the name of Sam/Jack romance, right? While it's not as blatantly obvious and heavy, almost to the point of being the Jack and Daniel Comedy Hour (gross exaggeration, by the way), like it was in, oh, say, Seasons 1 through 5, I'd have to say that I respectfully disagree with that sentiment.

And, that's your perogative to disagree. I won't tell you you're wrong, because who am I to tell you how to see things? But, my views still stand.

If one does not want to think of Sam and Jack as a modern-day Romeo and Juliet, than think of them as friends, and consider this observation:

Bring it forward two and a half years, and you'll see Jack being VERY agitated in a recent episode of the eighth season, when it looks like Daniel's life is being held in the balance. This ep will remain unknown for potential spoiler-prevention purposes

.

I'll say that so far, season 8 has been much better than season 7, where I felt the J/D friendship was all but gone. Of course, there's been no blatant ship either.

And there are more instances than these. Try "Fire and Water" - for Daniel; "Entity" - for Sam; as well as many others that have presented themselves throughout the series.

However, the relationship between Jack/Daniel and Jack/Carter has always been a source of speculation for fans for years... until now. Daniel and Sam ARE Jack's weak spot, whether anti-shippers want to recognize that or not. For the discussion's sake, Sam might not just be Jack's weak spot because of some canon-induced romance. She was his friend, IMO, before they started caring about each other, and he was hers. That was established early on in season one.

I really wish that there was a cease and desist in the way people make replies to anti-shippers. As if things anti shippers don't agree with (or some don't, since I don't speak for all) are facts, chisled in stone and written in blood, that anti-shippers just refuse to see. Lets just say that people interpret things differently.

Problems occur, however, when SOME Daniel fans and SOME Daniel/Jack friendship fans become threatened by impending Jack/Sam friendship or Sam/Jack romance. Rather than appreciating the Daniel/Jack moments that have filled our screen for MUCH longer, these fans lash out - and mostly against the Sam character.

Problems for who? And, I don't care about how much longer it's been there. There's no quota on friendship. It should still continue, and if I feel that it isn't, I'll speak out, and if I feel that J/S ship is the reason, I'll speak out.

I'd like to think that we'd all at least CONSIDER choosing the team above any one or two characters. This show was developed first and foremost as Stargate SG-1 - not Stargate: Love Circle of Fate, not Jack and Daniel's Merry Adventures, and certainly not The Stargate Bashing Hour. I do have my favorite MOMENTS, and my tendencies to side with other characters, as that has been made quite clear, however, I'd like to think that fairness and objectivity is involved when we think about the series.

Why does it matter if someone finds one relationship the most compelling out of all of them? Focusing on the Jack and Daniel friendship (which I will not apologize for being primarily interested in) is in no way eliminating the team. Imo, they managed to show Jack and Daniel being close friends (best friends, imo, but feel free to have your own opinion on that score) and to show them being close friends with Sam and Teal'c. They haven't (again, mo) managed to show ship with Jack and Sam and still show Jack and Daniel being friends. And, just for reference I've felt that the whole ship, actual, implied, dreamed, or whatever version, took hold in the second half of season 7. (BTW, I've always found the friendship between J/D to be much more than just fun, although it has its place. It's also warm, serious, touching, (especially season 2)

And, Stargate isn't the Kissy Kissy Praise the Show to the Skies and Never Say Anything Critical Hour either. If I feel there's something good to say, I'll say it. If I feel there's something wrong, I'll point it out. Stargate is a creative endeavor, and since the beginning of time, creative endeavors get criticized as well as praised.

[Dani347]

And, lest you think Jack and Daniel's friendship are the only reasons I have for disliking J/S ship, let me also reiterate that I don't think Jack and Sam have any chemistry, or anything in common aside from being in the military, if they were the only two people on earth, I couldn't see them getting together. It doesn't work for me at all on any front.

[the dancer of spaz]

This is kinda hard, because there's a lot of quotes, but I'll do my best.

So, you think there was too much Daniel and Jack in the first five seasons, and not enough of Sam and Jack.

Not at all. I like Daniel and Jack scenes. Like I stated in my previous post, it was a gross exaggeration - mostly for sarcastic purposes. I like the way the creators have handled all of the characters over the course of the entire series. In my mind, the relationships between the four main characters have evolved for a reason. Sam and Jack and Sam and Teal'c weren't nearly as close as Daniel and Jack or Sam and Daniel, or any other kind of combo you can think of - and this happened for at least four years. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been this way, it just means that it's relatively different now, AND that that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Some. Others might call his "worry" pretty destructive and UNcaring. He wanted to give up. What's romantic about THAT? Come to think of it, Jack's been more of a giver-upper when it comes to ALL of his team lately (Zero Hour). It's making him look like a fool.

*snip*

Hmm. His best friend passed on, he was upset, and he shut down, while Carter kept at him, ignoring how he might be having to deal with it. Jack's not the talking type. Of course, that's my opinion.

*snip*

Jack's a caring kind of guy. His team is important to him. That much is clear. That is, when he doesn't give up on them. Spoilers not given.

*snip*

Okay. Again, Jack cares about his friends.

Not to nitpick or anything, but do you realize how contradictory all of these statements are? You made them in between your references to my post, and I'm having a hard time reconciling what you're trying to say. First, you say that he's a "giver-upper" with all members of his team, and then you say that Jack's a caring kind of guy. While I'm a firm believer in the theory that Jack conceals his feelings out of habit and necessity, I don't think that means that he wants to give up all the time. Personally, I saw no evidence of that in Grace - but rather, that he has a hard time dealing with circumstances outside of his control. Concerning Grace, Daniel likes to help people, he's very close to Sam, and he wanted to do what he does best: Think outside the box.

Okay. Here's where we veer off into the badlands. Two assumptions: You assume that anti-J&S shippers think Carter is unimportant to Jack. That is not true. She obviously is, and I think it's ungracious to imply that a whole category of fans think that it isn't so.

Again... A bit confused. Didn't you just say that Jack showed feelings that resemble that of "uncaring?" I could be wrong. Also, let me just clarify that I'm not stupid enough to blame an entire category of fans for behavior I've simply been witnessing in a choice few for the past year and a half. I know very well that Sam's existence does not involve being unimportant to Jack. However, it would seem that a few people (no matter how few or how many) would like to assume that she is.

The other assumption: that they care for each other more than they should. That's a J&S shipper's assumption. Jack seemed pretty damned uncomfortable around Carter for many episodes in the beginning. Frankly, he still does. IMO.

Um... Do I need to quote Jack in "Divide and Conquer," or what? Sam NEVER said she cared about Jack more than she was supposed to. That was all Jack. And however one wants to analyze and dissect that statement, it means that he cares for her. Just like he cares for Teal'c. Just like he cares for Daniel. It is my belief that his love for her is different, but that doesn't mean a thing write now. Canonly, there has been too much evidence to show that Jack does have feelings for Carter, and vice-versa. The only difference is, he conceals his feelings a lot better. Or, at least, I'm led to believe so.

Here I thought SOME J&S shippers were threatened by Daniel's very presence, that he was a distraction for Jack, and takes Jack's attention away from Carter! Um, I don't feel threatened by the J&S ship, btw. I think it's pathetic, a loser of a "storyline" and shows Carter in a most unprofessional and unflattering light, but I'm not threatened by it.

I don't feel threatened by any of the characters, because I like them all. Each character plays an intricate role in how we perceive the show, whether it is more negatively or positively for each individual fan. I've always said that I like Daniel, and I do. In fact, I wish it wasn't all about who we like more, because the team is what brought me to the show, what kept me with the show - the ship, that I perceive to exist, came shortly after... Anyone who is literally threatened by any aspect of the show, should probably work on that, though, because I don't think it's particularly healthy. ;P

Let me get this straight, and tell me if my summary of your views in your post are correct. I don't want misunderstandings. So, there was too much Jack and Daniel friendship stuff in the first five years. There was so much Jack and Daniel interaction, that Jack and Daniel fans should suck it up and let Carter have her day in the sun with her Hero Jack? Is that it? Then, Daniel came back, and now Daniel fans are threatened by the very shadow of Star-Crossed Lover's Romance between a General and his subordinate officer. In the Airforce. ?????? I don't get the transition here. The NonJ&S shippers I know hate the ship more for the fact that it's ruined a great character -- Sam Carter, and made her into a character template for a Boons&Mill or Harlequinn Romance drivel novel. Oh, and the reasons Dani pointed out.

Uh... cool. I guess you TRIED to get what I was saying, but I have to say that, for the most part, it was wrong. Sorry. Sorry if I offended anyone. I don't make generalizations. I just go off what I see, just like everyone else. And I don't think any of the characters have canonly been ruined, mistreated, or trashed.

This is the SHIP DISCUSSION THREAD. Not the Bash at Daniel and his fans Thread.

You're kidding!

Are you really trying to say, "this thread is here because of some disgruntled Daniel fans who've had more than enough time with their two favorite characters together but we poor deprived J&S shippers deserve more time with OUR two favorite characters together, so be quiet, those of you who don't like the Ship, and lump it"?

Uh... In short, no.

Not sure what you mean by the "Just as a Fan" bit. Were you expecting to be hired at Bridge? I'm not sure what you meant by that. We're all fans. Puzzled here.

I meant that the time we've all devoted, JUST AS FANS, does not compare to the amount of time, effort, and energy that the creators, directors, and actors have put into it. And I think that we should all act accordingly.

[Shipperahoy]

I have to say that despite whatever ship may or may not be there that the personal relationships between the 4 are all a matter of perspective. People are beginning to talk in unequivocals here and I think it should be kept in mind that everything is a matter of opinion.

Despite being a shipper I personally don't place Jack's relationship with Sam above any of the other inter-team relationships. I don't think that Jack cares for Sam more than he cares for Daniel or Teal'c I just happen to think that he cares for her in a different way. Many people people feel that S/J ship can, anywhere from interfere with all the way to destroy, the team. I think that it's a fine line. I happen to think that S/J ship can be done in a way that doesn't ruin the team. I don't think they did that in the latter half of season 7 and I was just as unhappy with it as many of the anti-shippers.

I do get very very tired of generalizations. I keep hearing things like shippers don't like the Jack/Daniel friendship or anti-shippers don't like Sam and it makes me want to bang my head against the wall. I also think that's why threads such as these are a good thing. If people just hide out in their perspective corners than misconceptions such as these won't get cleared up.

[Dani347]

I meant that the time we've all devoted, JUST AS FANS, does not compare to the amount of time, effort, and energy that the creators, directors, and actors have put into it. And I think that we should all act accordingly.

Okay, what are the guidelines for "acting accordingly"? And, what does how much time the people involved in the show have to do with anything? I don't think I've criticized them on the amount of time they put in (although, I don't think that or anything about the show is a sacred cow that can't be commented on). I've criticized them on aspects of the finished product that I don't like, and that's the rights of the fans. I plan to write for a living. I expect to get praise and criticisms for my work. I don't expect that everyone who criticizes will also be writers, and yet, their opinions on what works or doesn't for them will be perfectly valid. And, these people have been in the business awhile. If they can't take that people don't love everything about what they do, maybe this is the wrong business for them. But, I don't think they feel like that, or they never would have lasted as long as they have. Here (where not one person associated with the show has to read if they don't want to) they're confronted largely by fans, who even if they don't like some things, do (or have) liked the show. They also have to deal with professional critics, some who don't have any qualms on personal attack, don't try to smooth things over, and have no hesitation in saying just how bad they think the show is. And, no, I don't have any examples of critics who feel that way, but since nothing is ever 100% wholly loved by everyone, I'm sure there are people who feel that way.

[the dancer of spaz]

Okay, what are the guidelines for "acting accordingly"? And, what does how much time the people involved in the show have to do with anything? I don't think I've criticized them on the amount of time they put in (although, I don't think that or anything about the show is a sacred cow that can't be commented on).

That's OK... I didn't mean you personally. That was just more of a general statement that apparently was more ambiguous than I intended.

I don't think there's a set standard of guidelines for this "acting accordingly" concept. I just know that, personally, I have a line drawn FOR ME, which I plan never to cross, when it comes to criticizing other people's work, and FOR ME, some people have crossed it. It doesn't make them bad people or anything like that, it's just a bolder act than I would most likely take.

And, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, everyone's opinion is valid. Thank God!