General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Gategrrl]

It's interesting reading the comments about JM favoring the J/S shippers because I've read some fans comment that TPTB are catering to the other side. Why was the ship named the DJ? Because they were catering to the Daniel fans. Why were the script sides changed for Prometheus Unbound? Because they were catering to the comments from the Daniel fans. Really, they can't win at this point.

Interesting comment there. As I understand, and I don't read the sides directly, the sides themselves were "roughs" and a work in progress. It's supposition and unfounded conclusions on your part to accuse TPTB of rectifying a logical problem with a script-in-progress on a group of fans that TPTB have pretty much ignored or belittled consistently.

It's catering to "Daniel" fans to have an Asgard ship named after him? They named one after Jack -- I suppose they'll get around to naming one after Carter, too. To be honest, with the love affair the PTB seem to have with Carter, I'm amazed they didn't name the ship Samantha Carter -- but then, I think they were trying to get away from J&S shippy connotations at that point, since Carter was talking about Pete earlier, etc etc and so forth. Oh, and the pun would have been bad beyond belief. Frankly it would have better had the issue of a ship name not come up in the first place.

But otherwise, I agree, that the producers and writers should keep their noses out of fan sites and stay with magazine interviews only. It's amazing they have any feet left at all. I don't know how they can speak around so many toes in their mouths.

[ShadowMaat]

Interesting comment there. As I understand, and I don't read the sides directly, the sides themselves were "roughs" and a work in progress. It's supposition and unfounded conclusions on your part to accuse TPTB of rectifying a logical problem with a script-in-progress on a group of fans that TPTB have pretty much ignored or belittled consistently.

Forgive me for being a little stupid, here, it's been a long day, but are you saying you think Kes meant what she said in that text you quoted? Because I thought Kes was supplying the "fandom" answers to the questions posed, not her own personal views. When something shippy happens, the anti-ship people say it's because TPTB are catering to shippers. When something Daniel-centric happens, the anti-Daniel people say it's 'cause TPTB are catering to Daniel fans. Whenever Pete's in an ep, shippers say it's because TPTB are kow-towing to the anti-shippers. I'm painting in very broad strokes, mind you, but I think that's the gist of what Kes was saying- no matter what the producers do, some group isn't going to be happy and is going to accuse TPTB of favoring the "other" side.

A agree whole-heartedly that they can't win no matter what, however, I can't help feeling that they brought at least some of the ship/anti-ship mess on themselves. If they'd kept things subtle, shippers would have complained, but probably in a more general way. anti/non-shippers, as a general rule, would probably have gone right on ignoring the hints. But TPTB decided to make ship canon and they decided to play the sides off one another and that has opened up an extremely unpleasant can of worms, IMO. Now there are rabidly vicious pro- and anti- fans who will settle for nothing less than everything for their respective sides. Things feel a lot more antagonistic these days. There seems to be a lot more demanding going on instead of, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice...?" or "I wish..."

So yeah, they can't win, but they aren't exactly blameless in this particular mess, either.

[DarkQuee1]

In your opinion it hasn't. In mine, and Ali's, and many other people's, it has done both. Your opinion is no more or less valid than ours, and vise versa. You cannot state that it hasn't destroyed anything when to so many people, it has.

Being somewhat inconsistent here, aren't we? *Your* opinion is as valid as mine, but mine obviously is not as valid as yours, since I'm not allowed to state that it hasn't destroyed the friendship because others think is has. Clearly, everything we post in this regard is our opinion. So, if it makes you happy: ship has not destroyed the friendship, IMO.

MOre importantly, other than the fact that you don't think that Jack and Daniel are spending as much screen time together, on what do you base the claim that this is the result of ship? Did Jack ever indicate that he was not going to spend as much time with Daniel because his heart now belongs to Sam? Unfortunately, RDA's reduced schedule means that there is just less time for him to spend in general and that can have an effect. You're complaining because you think his limited time is going to scenes with Sam and I guess you think that if ship were ended tomorrow, he wouldn't have scenes with Sam, all of his time would go back to banter with Daniel.

Well, that's your opinion. I disagree on that, too. Sam is now CO of SG-1, and just as Jack had scenes with Hammond that did not involve any other members of the team, no reason to assume we wouldn't still see those.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any sources for your claims that the deterioration of the Jack and Daniel friendship was done at Mr. Shanks' request? Because that's a new one by me, and I'd really like to see it.

I came into the fandom (and the show) after it had been on Showtime for three years, and I bought every back issue of the British SF magazines I could to catch up on everything. There was a print interview with MS in which he indicated that he asked them for two things: to put an end to the Sha're storyline and to make Daniel darker. TPTB complied with both requests. A later interview indicated that after a while of the arc, he had asked them to lighten Daniel up again--and we got AP and the end of the arc, and a turn around.

I only keep interviews with RDA, so I don't still have it in my hands. However, you can ask MS at a con or on a chat/Q&A about it. I have no reason to assume he would not tell you the same thing he told the interviewer.

It was a T-shirt worn by a woman in the audience that made Mr. Shanks uncomfortable, wasn't it? One person made one glaring error in her choice of clothing - and it was one that she was made well aware of, both by Mr. Shanks and by her fellow slash fans.

I'd hardly use that as the basis for a rallying cry of "Blame the evil slashers!"

There has been more than one T-shirt. There were photo manips and other things. As for saying that TPTB finding out about slash has had an effect--and I don't think they were aware of it in the early years; I don't care what was in ST fandom, these guys are relatively new to this kind of phenomenon. In fact, RDA had to have slash explained to him in a chat about three years ago; he was not amused--let me refer you to OS. I lurked on an entire thread in which this was heavily discussed and any number of OS posters held the same position.

Plus, we have the statement from MS about the scene change. Perhaps you think he's making it up, too?

After all, canon or not, Mr. Shanks continues to do the "Gay Daniel" on stage at conventions. He talks about it with a smile on his face, and he has a remarkable sense of humor about it, as does Mr. Judge.

You can't say he doesn't know his audience. <<bg>>

To couple that with calling attention to the fact that Teal'c and Jack still interact with each other physically is simply ludicrous - or were you not aware that Jack/Teal'c slash is just as real as Jack/Daniel slash is?

But a whole heck of a lot less, isn't it?

There is no more canonical 'ship between Sam and Jack than there is canonical slash between Jack and Daniel. Everything is subtext.

We will have to disagree on that. I think that what they've put in the show goes way beyond "subtext." Simply because you don't choose to accept it does not make it not there. And if TPTB follow through, well, like R2D2, they made a "fair move".


J.

[brihana25]

Being somewhat inconsistent here, aren't we? *Your* opinion is as valid as mine, but mine obviously is not as valid as yours, since I'm not allowed to state that it hasn't destroyed the friendship because others think is has.

I'm not going to play that game with you. Sorry.

MOre importantly, other than the fact that you don't think that Jack and Daniel are spending as much screen time together, on what do you base the claim that this is the result of ship? Did Jack ever indicate that he was not going to spend as much time with Daniel because his heart now belongs to Sam? Unfortunately, RDA's reduced schedule means that there is just less time for him to spend in general and that can have an effect. You're complaining because you think his limited time is going to scenes with Sam and I guess you think that if ship were ended tomorrow, he wouldn't have scenes with Sam, all of his time would go back to banter with Daniel.

And once again, you've gone from answering what I said to claiming that you know what I'm *really* thinking. I really hope you're not trying to make a living as a psychic, because you're really not very good at it.

Exactly when did I outline how *I* think J/S has destroyed the team? Exactly when did I say anything about how much time Jack spends with who? Exactly when did I complain about how RDA's time on the set is spent? Exactly when did I say that I want him to spend all of his time bantering with Daniel?

Oh, that's right! I didn't.

Assume much?

I only keep interviews with RDA, so I don't still have it in my hands. However, you can ask MS at a con or on a chat/Q&A about it. I have no reason to assume he would not tell you the same thing he told the interviewer.

So in other words - you don't have any proof. Maybe someone else will happen along who will.

As for saying that TPTB finding out about slash has had an effect--and I don't think they were aware of it in the early years; I don't care what was in ST fandom, these guys are relatively new to this kind of phenomenon.

Jonathan Glassner was not "new" to anything, nor was Brad Wright. Do you think there was no slash in 21 Jump Street fandom? No slash in Voyager fandom? No slash in Highlander fandom?

They were not stupid, and they were not naive. They knew it would be out there, and it didn't seem to bother anyone for the first three years.

Plus, we have the statement from MS about the scene change. Perhaps you think he's making it up, too?

You mean his statement on the Fallen DVD that Jack and Daniel standing around in towels would have been a really stupid time to talk about Jack's dead son? He did not say, "We changed it because it would have been taken the wrong way by the slashers." He said, "We decided that it was inappropriate."

And it would have been. He was absolutely right about that.

But a whole heck of a lot less, isn't it?

I think we're done here.

[DarkQuee1]

And no, it's not your fault if you do get it, and you shouldn't feel guilty for that, no matter how miserable those of us who don't agree with you are left feeling in the end.

Gee, it really sounds as if you're not trying to make us feel guilty, doesn't it? <<G>>

What I'm saying, what I've been saying all along, is that TPTB are wrong in the way they've handled this. They were wrong to choose sides. They were wrong to endorse one section of fans over another. And if they decide, in the end, to please one group of fans and leave the rest hanging out to dry, then yes, they're wrong.

See, that's the problem. *They* didn't make it choosing side, you did. They didn't choose sides; they put a story thread into the series in the beginning (and, I know, you don't think so, but I do think it was there from at least Broca) and they are following through. They gave you plenty of warning that they thread was there. It's not their fault that the warnings were ignored.

Validation. Proof that they do love each other as much as you think they do. Proof that you're right. Proof that everyone who has ever disagreed with you about it is wrong.

Because that's exactly what getting them together will do. J/S shippers (not all of them, and not necessarily you specifically) will finally be able to say, "See? We told you so! We're right and you're wrong. Nyah nyah."

"He who is giddy thinks the world turns 'round." Shakespeare, 'Taming of the Shrew'.

This is an insulting assumption with nothing to support it. (Perhaps you are confusing ship fans with certain other fans who have already engaged in that kind of behavior?)

The ship fans I know will be very happy if Sam and Jack get together. And we have no problem with your getting proof that Jack and Daniel are very good friends, either.

We don't see why they are mutually exclusive.

And it will happen, if Jack and Sam get together. You think the fandom is divided and bitter now? Wait until one group or the other has that kind of power over the rest of us.

I don't think it *can* get more bitter and divided. Oh, yes, I think there are people out there who will get even nastier than they have already been, but the fandom is totally fractured now.

And what "kind of power"? I'm sorry, but that's absurd. If Sam and Jack ultimately get together we can--what?--order you around? The ship is one thread among many. Daniel still has a story arc--and it sounds as if it could be a very powerful one. Teal'c still has the Jaffa revolt to resolve. Ship has no affect on those storylines at all.

The only thing is does affect, if Sam and Jack get together, is that it means that Jack and Daniel won't be snogging behind a tree.

There will be nowhere in this entire fandom that will be safe from the backlash - the militant J/S shippers will lord their victory over we losers

I must live a sheltered life. I've meet passionate shippers, but not any militant ones. I haven't met any who seek to "lord" it over anyone, either.

And why do you assume you will be a loser? My personal sense of self-esteem is not tied up in whether or not two fictional characters get together. Is yours?

and we'll strike back at them just as harshly.

Is that a threat? If so, you should have known better than to put it in writing! <<g>>

I guess you could say that J/S is my ex-husband-ship. As much as I once loved it, I now loathe it because to me it seems the entire thing is one big, huge game that I never wanted to play.

I guess I have a hard time thinking that you were ever strongly into Sam/Jack ship. Among other things, Sam/Jack shippers *never* call it "J/S"; it's always, "S/J" Unlike some other fans, we put Sam first. <<BG>>

And I don't see your complaint with Evol2 or TLC--in what way did they forego their duty to be with each other? Jack didn't refuse to go to Daniel's rescue so that he could be on the mission with Sam, for example. And both he and she did everything they needed to in TLC to obtain the knowledge and deal with the enemy.

It seems more to come down to, you didn't like that Jack was spending time with Sam, when you wanted him to be spending it with/or angsting over Daniel.

And if that happens, and when the "losers" react in anger, TPTB will say "Oh, well, that's what the shippers wanted..."

Personally, I think TPTB will blame the people who are "reacting in anger". Or, overreacting, if you prefer.

If J/S happens onscreen, it will destroy this fandom. And no, it won't be your fault. It won't be my fault. But we will both pay for it as if it is. You won't be allowed to enjoy your happiness, because I'll lash out in anger from my misery. You'll strike back at me, and I'll strike back even harder. And in the end, no one will win, and everyone will be miserable.

More threats. Are you trying to scare us into agreeing with you? Won't work.

And, we *won't* be miserable. We will just have you on ignore.



J.

[Shipperahoy]

I do realize that this an extremely touchy topic and people have strong opinions on it but let's do try to keep things civil. I haven't seen any forum rules being broken but I can tell that people are starting to get a little riled up so let's just take a step back and a deep breath.

Ommmmmm........ommmmmm......ommmmm. I really wish that I had a meditating Buddha gif.

[brihana25]

Ommmmmm........ommmmmm......ommmmm. I really wish that I had a meditating Buddha gif.

I prefer the Garfield mediation mantra myself.

Chrome.... chrome.... chrome... bop bop-a-loo-bop!

[DarkQuee1]

Exactly when did I outline how *I* think J/S has destroyed the team? Exactly when did I say anything about how much time Jack spends with who? Exactly when did I complain about how RDA's time on the set is spent? Exactly when did I say that I want him to spend all of his time bantering with Daniel?

Oh, that's right! I didn't.

But that's my point. You have made an allegation: ship destroyed the friendships. But you haven't backed it up with anything in any of the episodes. What, precisely, in the episodes themselves--the only thing that is canon--says that Jack's feelings for Sam have in any way diminished his feelings for Daniel or Teal'c?

And if there isn't anything in the show, then aren't you getting worked up over nothing?

Assume much?

So in other words - you don't have any proof. Maybe someone else will happen along who will.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that this was poorly worded and you are *not* trying to call me a liar.

I think we're done here.

On this, we agree.


J.

[ShadowMaat]

Ommmmmm........ommmmmm......ommmmm. I really wish that I had a meditating Buddha gif.

OK, not Buddha but as close as I can get. We'll see how long the link works before the "no hotlinking" vultures attack...

People in general seem to be on very short fuses lately. I had no idea that "August People" was a world-wide phenomenon. How depressing...

If you guys want to fight can you please take it to PM so you don't drag the rest of the thread down with you? Thanks kindly.

[keshou]

Forgive me for being a little stupid, here, it's been a long day, but are you saying you think Kes meant what she said in that text you quoted? Because I thought Kes was supplying the "fandom" answers to the questions posed, not her own personal views. When something shippy happens, the anti-ship people say it's because TPTB are catering to shippers. When something Daniel-centric happens, the anti-Daniel people say it's 'cause TPTB are catering to Daniel fans. Whenever Pete's in an ep, shippers say it's because TPTB are kow-towing to the anti-shippers. I'm painting in very broad strokes, mind you, but I think that's the gist of what Kes was saying- no matter what the producers do, some group isn't going to be happy and is going to accuse TPTB of favoring the "other" side.

A agree whole-heartedly that they can't win no matter what, however, I can't help feeling that they brought at least some of the ship/anti-ship mess on themselves. If they'd kept things subtle, shippers would have complained, but probably in a more general way. anti/non-shippers, as a general rule, would probably have gone right on ignoring the hints. But TPTB decided to make ship canon and they decided to play the sides off one another and that has opened up an extremely unpleasant can of worms, IMO. Now there are rabidly vicious pro- and anti- fans who will settle for nothing less than everything for their respective sides. Things feel a lot more antagonistic these days. There seems to be a lot more demanding going on instead of, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice...?" or "I wish..."

So yeah, they can't win, but they aren't exactly blameless in this particular mess, either.

Yes indeed, what Shadow said. *thanks Shadow* Not my personal opinions being expressed, simply relating some of the more wonky things I've heard online.

I also agree with Shadow that TPTB aren't going to win any Nobel prizes in handling fandom but the rabidly vicious (I like that phrase!) pro- and anti- fans haven't helped anything either.

IMO TPTB seem to be trying to throw both groups some bones in season 8 and everyone may end up happier than they might believe at this point. But who knows.

I now return you to the more interesting .....er.....discussions going on.

ommmmmm.......ommmmmmmm......ommmmmmmm

[majorsal]

Had it turned out that my "pairing" would have been realized in the final scene of the final episode ever, I'd have been railing against it - because as much as ER has always been about who's sleeping with who, it has never been the story of whether or not Carter and Abby would end up together.

I understand, but I don't see how if it 'had' been the last scene of the last ep, that it would have negated the rest of the show and it's characters into not being important or vital.

What I'm saying, what I've been saying all along, is that TPTB are wrong in the way they've handled this. They were wrong to choose sides. They were wrong to endorse one section of fans over another. And if they decide, in the end, to please one group of fans and leave the rest hanging out to dry, then yes, they're wrong.

First off, I appreciate how considerate you've been about my feelings and thoughts. *hugs*

I've never felt that S/J ship was done or created because a bunch of fans wrote to them and said 'we picked out two ppl on the show, and we want sam and jack together!'. As you said earlier in your post about Carter and Abby - "And yes, I wrote some letters and yes, I ran a website about them. Did that have anything to do with the fact that they finally got together? Probably not, since the writers had been planning to get them together anyway." - I feel that the writers have been planning, to some sorts, to bring Sam and Jack together. From my eyes -and many other shippers- the ptb have been shipping them since the beginning. So I can't feel that they're trying to please one group of fans over another, because I think they're just going along with the same plan they have been playing for years. I 'do' feel, though, that the ptb were taken by surprise after D&C by just how many ppl wanted/liked S/J ship, so that might have been the beginning of actually thinking about resolving the ship with them 'together'.

Validation. Proof that they do love each other as much as you think they do. Proof that you're right. Proof that everyone who has ever disagreed with you about it is wrong.

Because that's exactly what getting them together will do. J/S shippers (not all of them, and not necessarily you specifically) will finally be able to say, "See? We told you so! We're right and you're wrong. Nyah nyah."

And it will happen, if Jack and Sam get together. You think the fandom is divided and bitter now? Wait until one group or the other has that kind of power over the rest of us. There will be nowhere in this entire fandom that will be safe from the backlash - the militant J/S shippers will lord their victory over we losers, and we'll strike back at them just as harshly.

You're right. There's ppl on both sides of our factions that will lord it over the other. I, myself, came after D&C aired, so all I knew about things was what other shippers told me. As time went on, and I started venturing out in fandom on my own... I figured out who the harshest players are, on both sides. I'm not too thrilled with having to inherit the legacy of this fighting either. If Sam and Jack get together at the end, certain ppl will strike out. If they don't, certain ppl will strike out. And THAT'S what I hate about this fandom more than anything else.

Those things we love the most also have a tendency to become those things we hate the most when we feel betrayed by them.

I can kinda relate here, with Jag and Harm/Mac ship. I was pretty into that ship, but in it's fourth season I started losing some interest. It was mainly because I'd gotten a computer and found Stargate fandom, but it was also because I was getting irritated with the way the ship was being written on the show. By the end of that season, I basically said screw it and left. I now see maybe one to three eps of that show a year now. And from what I've heard/read/watched, the ship between Harm and Mac is written even worse. I don't know if I can really call myself a shipper for them now. I don't know, maybe I was a half-a$$ed shipper for them to begin with, if I could drop them so easily. I 'almost' want Harm to end up with Harriot, or Harriot to end up with Mac. All I know is I got fed up and left -them and the show- and I can't do that with Sam and Jack.

If TPTB go the J/S route, they will be intentionally giving the J/S shippers their happiness at the expense of everyone else.

But what If they're just following the storyline they've been writing for years? What if the writers aren't looking at it like which side wins, but just that they're resolving a storyline that's been playing since the beginning. I don't like S/P ship, but I know they're not doing it personally against me as an S/J shipper.

If J/S happens onscreen, it will destroy this fandom. And no, it won't be your fault. It won't be my fault. But we will both pay for it as if it is. You won't be allowed to enjoy your happiness, because I'll lash out in anger from my misery. You'll strike back at me, and I'll strike back even harder. And in the end, no one will win, and everyone will be miserable.

I think this fandom is kinda messy to begin with, and it's all on our perspective sides. 'We're' the ones making it miserable. Now, to be honest, I don't play in other fandoms -won't because of the displeasure in this one- so I don't know if it's this bad for them too.

If Sam and Jack get together at the end -fishing invite or whatever- I won't be going to anti-shipper places and flaunting it. I 'will' be able to enjoy my happiness, as long as I don't tread in places that aren't exclusively S/J ship. Though I'll prob hear bragging from some shippers that'll say, 'see, we told you it would happen, so you should have had faith and not whined about it.' So in that aspect, I guess I 'will' have to deal with it.

I just really can't believe that the pbt are trying to set us against each other, and that if they give a shippy resolution to S/J ship, it'll be 'purposely' at the expense of anti-shipper fans. I'm not taking it personally that there's S/P ship, even though I'm suffering through it. As much as I understand what you're saying and getting at, I can't believe the pbt are doing it on purpose. Not only is it mean, it would be destroying part of their show -fandom and the franchise.

Sally

[Gategrrl]

Forgive me for being a little stupid, here, it's been a long day, but are you saying you think Kes meant what she said in that text you quoted? Because I thought Kes was supplying the "fandom" answers to the questions posed, not her own personal views.

Was that so? If so, I didn't catch that. I really hate this format; I can't just click on a number and go back the post I originally responded to without searching through loads of other posts! (grumbles)

[majorsal]

<snip>

[...] but I'm sure as heck going to try and be happy for the majorsals and shipperahoys of the world if they get their happy ending. I know this is important to them.

Hey... thanks.

Sally

[Gategrrl]

I guess I have a hard time thinking that you were ever strongly into Sam/Jack ship. Among other things, Sam/Jack shippers *never* call it "J/S"; it's always, "S/J" Unlike some other fans, we put Sam first. <<BG>>

And, we *won't* be miserable. We will just have you on ignore.

J.

Gee, a more-holier-than-thou 'tude towards others who have left the fold... whups, missed the smiley face at the end there. Were you really kidding there? Or is that a real attitude amongst J&S shippers?

And I suppose the reason it's S/J is becuz the "ship" is all in Sam's head, and Jack is as unresponsive to her as an ice cube?

[Gategrrl]

Yes indeed, what Shadow said. *thanks Shadow* Not my personal opinions being expressed, simply relating some of the more wonky things I've heard online.

My bad, then, sorry Kes.

I didn't realize you were writing down views not your own: that doesn't negate how idiotic they are, nor my own opinion of it.