General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Shipperahoy]

Brihana, I do see where you're coming from. The events of the second half of season 7 did not sit well with me either, and belive it or not I'm not just refering to Chimera. Although the EvoII stuff didn't stick out to me the way it did to you, there were other aspects of the way ship made Sam behave in late Season 7 that made me uncomfortable. And I too remember fondly the days when the ship was subtle and it wasn't such a volitile issue in the fandom. I actually wasn't online in the early seasons, I came online just at the end of season 5, but ship wasn't as touchy an issue then. Season 7 has served to make it so and I think that was a bad call on the writers parts.

My personal brand of shippiness has always been of the sublte variety with the hope that they would somehow be together in the end. I'm not trying to speak for anti-shippers but I have a feeling that if they had kept the ship on that subtle level not as many anti-shippers would be so dead set against a somewhat shippy resolution. Despite the faults though I do still want to see them together at the end. Sometimes I feel guilty for wanting that if it means that so many people will end up unhappy, but I still want it. I just hope that, if they do it, that it will be done in a way that doesn't make anti-shippers want to vomit or crawl under their couches.

[Dani347]

Well, just speaking for myself, I'm vehemently anti-J/S ship. I don't want a kiss, an invite to go fishing, or anything. I realise I'm totally stubborn and uncompromising, but since I don't run the show, what I want isn't going to affect what happens in the least (especially since I believe tptb are a bunch of J/S shippers anyway). I also don't think these writers can write team and ship. It's one or the other with them. So, I'll probably end up unhappy.

If they can find a way to make it really subtle, so that if someone says, "Wasn't that a great shippy ending?" and I'm saying "Where?" *eyes dart around, but find no sign of ship* then, maybe.

[keshou]

Brihana, I do see where you're coming from. The events of the second half of season 7 did not sit well with me either, and belive it or not I'm not just refering to Chimera. Although the EvoII stuff didn't stick out to me the way it did to you, there were other aspects of the way ship made Sam behave in late Season 7 that made me uncomfortable. And I too remember fondly the days when the ship was subtle and it wasn't such a volitile issue in the fandom. I actually wasn't online in the early seasons, I came online just at the end of season 5, but ship wasn't as touchy an issue then. Season 7 has served to make it so and I think that was a bad call on the writers parts.

I've never been a J/S shipper -- well I liked the UST in seasons 1-3 -- but the second half of season 7 did a lot to push me from disinterest to distaste. I'm still trying to view it as just a minor thread on the show but it's difficult when it starts becoming the focus of so much talk on all the forums. It's especially difficult when the ship starts causing Sam to behave in ways that make me cringe (several times in the last half of season 7). And I like Sam.

My personal brand of shippiness has always been of the sublte variety with the hope that they would somehow be together in the end. I'm not trying to speak for anti-shippers but I have a feeling that if they had kept the ship on that subtle level not as many anti-shippers would be so dead set against a somewhat shippy resolution. Despite the faults though I do still want to see them together at the end. Sometimes I feel guilty for wanting that if it means that so many people will end up unhappy, but I still want it. I just hope that, if they do it, that it will be done in a way that doesn't make anti-shippers want to vomit or crawl under their couches.

I didn't really mind the subtle stuff or the scenes open to interpretation. Death Knell was a good example of subtle ship that worked for me. I loved the S/J scene at the end. I still think I can live with a subtle resolution if they can find a writer in the writer's room who can write it. Something fun, in keeping with the characters and the journey they've been on. And then have a good old-fashioned action/adventure team ending. If they end with just Sam and Jack, I'm going to be really disappointed.

[majorsal]

As a J/S shipper I would have to say that I would rather see them make it abundantly clear that J/S will never be rather than to leave it up in the air.

I don't want it left up in the air at the end, but if it happened *pleasenopleasenopleaseno*, they might follow it up in one of their movies.

Sally

[majorsal]

As I said in the Affinity thread (and I do apologize for going so way OT over there), I'll believe it possible until the credits roll on the final episode. To me, it's not a matter of whether or not it can be done, but whether or not TPTB will care enough about all of their fans - not one group or the other - to actually do it.



To steal a line from Star Trek and modify it to apply: The satisfaction of the many outweighs the satisfaction of the few.

No, making every single fan out there happy isn't possible. There are those who will be "happy" with nothing less than everything they want - there are those who are not and will never be willing to compromise, no matter what is at stake.

It's a matter of numbers, quite simply.

Assuming that J/S shippers constitute 1/4 of the overall fanbase: there are those who would be left satisfied with an ending that is "open" to J/S ship - that is to say one that doesn't completely shut it down, but doesn't completely validate it either. From what I've seen here on GW, that's a rather sizable percentage. In addition to those, there are even more who would be, though not satisifed, not made miserable by it.

Building on the 1/4 assumption, that means that 3/4 of the fanbase is either invested in another ship/slash pairing involving Sam and Jack (J/D, J/T, J/Sara, S/D, S/T, S/P, etc) or simply don't care who ends up with who in the end.

And out of those J/S fans, how many would be made completely and totally miserable by an open ending? Relatively speaking, there'd be a handful. And there would be a handful of people in each of the other pairings that wouldn't be any more satisfied with an open ending than those J/S shippers - there are J/D slashers that won't be satisfied until J/D is realized onscreen, there are those S/D shippers that won't be satisifed until S/D is realized onscreen, and so on and so on - but that is an amazingly small amount of people out of the 3/4+ of the fanbase that could and would be left satisfied with an open ending.

But if TPTB have the possibility - and they do - of making the largest number of fans the most satisfied with the show in the end, the best way to guarantee the largest amount of satisfaction is to leave the ending as open to interpretation as the beginning was.

I wasn't around the online fandom in 1997, obviously. I've not even been part of it for a year yet. But tell me honestly - weren't ship discussions in the early seasons (Sam loves Daniel - no she doesn't, Sam loves Jack - no she doesn't, Sam loves Teal'c...) a lot less heated and a lot more enjoyable back when no one was "with" anyone onscreen? Back when every episode had the possibility of making the majority of the fans happy? Back when every look, every line, every passing glance, was open to interpretation rather than being *explained* to us as "Oh, look... that's *love* in her eyes right there..."?



The only thing I think they should be committed to 100% is making their fans happy. And no, like I said, it's never going to be possible to make every single fan happy because, again, some people just aren't going to be happy with anything less than everything *they* want, and to h*ll with anyone who doesn't want the same thing.

As an ex-J/S shipper (who, somehow, was able to ship Sam/Martouf and Jack/Sara right alongside them) who at one time wanted their sacrifices for each other to be rewarded in the end, I would rather see them leave it open for me. If EvoII had been left open to interpretation, I could still believe that the expression on Sam's face was one of concern for both Jack and Daniel rather than "love in her eyes" for only Jack and not giving Daniel even a passing thought. If Grace had been left open to interpretation, I could still believe that Sam believes herself to be a strong, independent woman who could, in the end, go to Jack because she *wants* him, not because she *needs* a man to be happy. If TLC had been left open to interpretation, I could still believe that Sam would always put Jack's best interests ahead of her own and would never try to put him in a position of having to deal with *her* feelings while he should have been getting *his* life in order before he died.

If Season Seven had been left open to interpretation, I'd still be a J/S shipper. And yes, I'd most likely still be shipping S/P alongside them (because I happen to think S/P are adorable together) because I would still believe that, in the end, I would be left with an ending that would allow me to think that J/S could be together, and I wouldn't have had to suffer through an entire season of watching Sam behave like a teenager in heat before then.

I think it's you that said on the Affinity thread that you shipped a pair on some show and that when they got together the show ruined it? And you said you were on lists for that pairing, and really worked hard to bring them together *letter writing and such*? Were you thinking about other ship pairing fans when you did this - like if it's fair to them? Or did you just enjoy your preferred pairing and didn't take on the whole responsibility of pleasing every single ship fan of this show? In other words, did anyone try to make you feel guilty or wrong for loving/wanting your favored pair? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to point out that you did then what I'm doing now, so why is one wrong but the other right?

Sally

[majorsal]

Bringing this over from the Affinity thread. This is a reply to Bri's post.

Originally Posted by brihana25
Why does everything have to be one-sided? Why should the J/S shippers be given the ending they want when no other fan group in the world would get anything out of it? Who decided that the J/S shippers are the only fans that deserve to be happy at the end?

I can't -I won't- take responsibility for making sure all the other ship pairing shippers are happy and fulfilled. When I used to really be into the show ER, I shipped for Susan/Doug. And as any fan of the show of then will tell you, the ptb never shipped them together. *I* might have liked the idea, but the show never went that way. They went Doug/Hathaway. And I never complained that D/H shouldn't be because it interferes with my preferred ship pairing. I also didn't complain when the two of them went off together at the end (of their story arc). Was I bitter that I didn't get Susan/Doug? No. Did it ruin my fun in pairing them off after Doug and Hathaway ended together? No. I also didn't begrudge the ppl that did enjoy it.

Here's a scenario for you to ponder - after all these years of build-up, let's say you do finally get your validation.

I don't need a validation, I just want them together. Maybe I don't know what you really mean by validation?

Sam dumps Pete, and she and Jack get together. You'd be happy, right? Thrilled?

Yes.

Then Sam leaves the SGC, abandoning all of her work, and her team, to go settle down with General Jack and have a couple of babies. She stays at home, cooks, cleans, and raises kids - that's it.

Why would she leave the SGC? If Jack retires, she'd still be able to do everything she's done before. If they want babies, she could take off some time from gate travel and return to it if she'd like. Heck, she could just concentrate on the science aspect of her career and still be able to be at the SGC. Getting Jack doesn't mean she has to lose the SGC or her science career.

Would you still be happy? If the realization of your dreams resulted in Sam walking away from hers?

Like I said above, why would she have to quit?

Because with the opinion these particular writers seem to have of women, that's not outside the realm of possibility. After all, these are the same writers that had Sam come to the "amazing realization" that she absolutely cannot be happy without a man.

You're talking about Grace, right? I felt her realization was that she wanted to have at least a trace of a normal life. And that included having companionship.

So you'd like to see Sam and Jack share a kiss, and go off fishing together in the final scene of the series. I've heard quite a few J/S shippers say that this is how they want the series to end. With a scene of Jack and Sam, alone, going off together.

There's just two little problems with that.

Remember those two other guys? Daniel and Teal'c? Where exactly are they? After 8 years (or 9, or 10, or whenever the series ends), are they not allowed to be in the final scene of the series?

And people still say that a J/S ending won't destroy the team?

It wouldn't necessarily have to be the last scene of the show. And let's face it, for Sam and Jack to get together, something has to change - one retires, one transfers, etc. So the team would be changed anyways. But I think you're referring to the four of them being together, whether they're on Sg-1 or not, right? So let's say that Sam and Jack kiss and agree to go fishing. Then the scene moves on and shows THE final scene to be Sam, Jack, Daniel, and Teal'c all together, all caring for one another, all being the family that they are. If 'that' happened, would you still dislike Sam and Jack ending up together?

Because I will tell you right now that if it turns out that Daniel and Teal'c aren't in that final scene, and if all four of them don't go off together at the end, I will never watch another episode of Stargate again. I will sell my DVDs, I will sell my books, I will delete all Stargate bookmarks, and I will destroy all of my videos and stories.

Because Stargate SG-1 should end with SG-1, not with Sam and Jack.

I don't want THE last scene to exclude the four of them either. S/J doesn't mean dump the four friends.

I was a J/S shipper. I loved Solitudes. I loved D&C. I loved WOO. I loved BtS. And there was a time when I wanted nothing more than for Sam and Jack to end up together at the end.

That all came to a screeching halt after EvoII. When I watched an episode that I had been eagerly anticipating for almost six months, and I saw Sam more concerned about making mooney eyes at Jack than she was about rescuing Daniel, I realized just how wrong J/S had suddenly gone.

I don't want this to come off harsh - please believe me- but you couldn't have been much into S/J ship in the first place if you could have become this angry and bitter and against it as you are now. I care about Daniel too, and I didn't feel that Sam didn't give a hayhoo about Daniel's fate in that ep. So much of it has to do with writing, directing, editing, etc, and I've seen the show drop the ball before, so to speak, in scenes that had nothing to do with/concering ship.

And even worse was when I realized that I, as a J/S shipper, was going to be used against every other fan on the planet and when I realized that my happiness was going to be used as a justification for destroying everyone else's.

... I don't even know how to respond to this. The writers have shown that Jack cares about everyone on his team, and the the team cares about one another. When the show highlights that two of them have sexual feelings for one another, why does that have to mean that the other relationships suddenly become invalid?

Bri, I'm not evil for liking/wanting S/J ship *which I know you're not saying*. If other fans feel slighted by things, it's not S/J ship's faults. Wanting them to end up together doesn't mean I want everyone else to get screwed over. I know without a doubt that there will be Jack-Daniel scenes, Jack-Teal'c scenes, Teal'c-Daniel scenes, etc - and I'm not begruding the fans of those pairings because of my desire to see Sam and Jack end up together.

It took me exactly two episodes - EvoII and Grace - to go from being a J/S shipper to being vehemently opposed to anything that even remotely hints at it. Because as happy as it would have made me even 8 months ago to see J/S together, the games TPTB have been playing have pushed me to the point where I am now angry that they ever ever put it out there for me to see.

We've talked before on OS, so I know you're feelings on things pretty well *referring to 'games'*. Why I survived Susan/Doug on ER not getting together was because those ptb never hinted at it. I wasn't waiting for 'the' scene to make all my waiting worth while. I am on Stargate, though, and it's because the powers 'gave' me that desire. And they've fed it for years. I want to see a shippy resolution for them, just like I want to see the resolution to Daniel's ascension ordeal, or Teal'c's resolution to the 8 year struggle for independence from the Goauld and independence for all Jaffa. These are storylines that have been on-going, and really need to be addressed. Like S/J. It's just another arc that needs to be addressed (even though I'm obsessed on it to no end) . And wanting that resolution doesn't mean I want everyone else to suffer or not enjoy what they love. I can't take the responsibility for making other fans happy with this show, especially if it means I have to lose something so they can feel it's fair because they did too. I've been waiting 8 years for this one storyline to resolve. And I'm not wrong for wanting it. Or wrong for expecting it. It would be real nice to stop feeling like I am.

Sally

[majorsal]

But I feel that because they (tptb) started it, those who supported the S/J ship should get a proper ending. A *clear* suggestion that they are together would be sufficient. But not a *take it either way you want* ending.

Oh, that would be so nice! *understatement*

Sally

[Ali888]

'I don't want THE last scene to exclude the four of them either. S/J doesn't mean dump the four friends.'

Unfortunately, when TPTB decided to push the J/S from the start of S4 onwards, the 'four members of SG1 as friends' thing went out of the window. Teal'c had hardly anything to say and do, except in a handful of episodes. Jack went from someone who frequently asked Daniel if he was alright, sometimes ruffled his hair, patted him on the shoulder or coined silly nicknames but always listened to Daniel and admitted that Daniel was often right, to someone who didn't even seem to like Daniel. He told Daniel to "shut up" in front of a room full of strangers, in The Other Side, told him to find another solution in Scorched Earth, then never acknowledged that Daniel did just that and generally got annoyed at pretty much everything Daniel did eg in Entity. That of course is in the episodes where Daniel actually had contact with the rest of SG1. There were several episodes where Daniel had hardly any contact with the rest of his team or had so little to do that he needn't have bothered to be there.

No, if Jack and Sam get together at the end I will lose all interest in the show. I wouldn't have liked the ship anyway but if TPTB had managed to do it without destroying the team and the J/D friendship I would have accepted it. The whole thing has been so badly handled that the whole thing has left a very nasty taste in my mouth.

[DarkQuee1]

'I don't want THE last scene to exclude the four of them either. S/J doesn't mean dump the four friends.'

Unfortunately, when TPTB decided to push the J/S from the start of S4 onwards, the 'four members of SG1 as friends' thing went out of the window. Teal'c had hardly anything to say and do, except in a handful of episodes. Jack went from someone who frequently asked Daniel if he was alright, sometimes ruffled his hair, patted him on the shoulder or coined silly nicknames but always listened to Daniel and admitted that Daniel was often right, to someone who didn't even seem to like Daniel. He told Daniel to "shut up" in front of a room full of strangers, in The Other Side, told him to find another solution in Scorched Earth, then never acknowledged that Daniel did just that and generally got annoyed at pretty much everything Daniel did eg in Entity. That of course is in the episodes where Daniel actually had contact with the rest of SG1. There were several episodes where Daniel had hardly any contact with the rest of his team or had so little to do that he needn't have bothered to be there.

No, if Jack and Sam get together at the end I will lose all interest in the show. I wouldn't have liked the ship anyway but if TPTB had managed to do it without destroying the team and the J/D friendship I would have accepted it. The whole thing has been so badly handled that the whole thing has left a very nasty taste in my mouth.

Ship didn't destroy anything and it didn't affect the friendships. The changes in second half of season 3/first half of season 4 between Jack and Daniel was the result of a Daniel-arc, not ship. MS had asked them to kill off Sha're and make Daniel darker. TPTB did what he asked and between FIAD & AP, the two bookends of the arc, we saw that one result was Daniel sniping at Jack. You cite "The Other Side" and SE, but I didn't see those eps the same way. Daniel had every right to ask questions in TOS--he was free to do so in a way that Jack, responsible for the mission, was not--but he was dead wrong in the way he went about it. Jack asked DJ to talk to him "later"; Daniel totally missed the point or refused to acknowledge it, and continued to basically challenge Jack's command in front of the people with whom they were negotiating. He gave Jack no respect in front of the others. Do you think that Makepeace, Reynolds, Edwards or, for that matter, Hammond, would have waited as long as Jack did before telling Daniel to "shut up"? Hell, no. They might very well have shipped Daniel back through the gate. (In civilian life, do you think that Daniel, if he worked for a corp., could have gone on a negotiating mission with a VP of the company--and a colonel is the equivalent of a VP--treated him the same way, and still have a job when they got back? Not likely.)

On any number of threads, I've discussed my feelings on SE and I won't go into detail here. Suffice it to say, I feel it was more luck than brilliance that saved the day--and the fact that TPTB changed the set-up at the end of the ep to have a happy ending, instead of the original much more realistic and hard-hitting ending.

Again, I have no idea which Entity you watched. I didn't see Jack "pretty much annoyed" at everything Daniel did--Jack was no more amenable to Sam's belief that they should talk to entity than he was with Daniel's. He broke in on Daniel's conversation with the entity, because, at that point, he realized that he was dealing with an alien counterpart of himself--a being who was there to destroy the SGC and who told them that it had nowhere to go if it left Sam--and he knew that the only way to save both a member of his team *and* ensure the safety of his base was to force the entity to sacrifice itself for its planet. Exactly the same choice the he, himself, would have made. In the ep, Daniel actually acknowledges subtlely that is was the right move, by pointing out that Jack had forced the entity to put Sam into the computer and let itself get killed.

After AP, I saw a turn-around. Daniel didn't like what he saw in the mirror that Shifu held up to him and things changed immediately. I saw them back to arguing like equals again, rather then with contempt. And exchanges like the one in "Enemies" and those in "Threshold".

Even more, there's absolutely nothing in any of those eps to support any claim that any feelings that Jack had for Sam in any way affected his relationship with Daniel. You are projecting onto the show what you want to feel was the fault, rather than acknowledge the deliberate darkening of Daniel--made at MS' request--and the fact that it caused a rocky patch in the friendship between Jack and Daniel.

And if they stopped having little physical touches between Jack and Daniel, look to slash for that. There is no canonical slash--even in subtext--in this show, and when slash fans started pushing photo manips on the actors at cons, it hit the fan. MS himself made it clear that they've backed off from some things so as not to be grist for the slash mill.

Notice, they haven't stopped physical touches between Jack and Teal'c (the most recent being the end scene in Avatar, which was a great scene.)

And, not surprisingly, we don't agree on Teal'c's role. IMO, Teal'c has had increasingly more to do as the show went on. Especially in season 6, when he was mentoring the new kid on the block.


J.

[DarkQuee1]

If they would just tell the science fiction, action adventure stories that are what Stargate SG-1 is all about, there wouldn't be room for all this silly ship.

I don't agree. Yes, it's about SF and A/A, but it's also about creating a complex universe, about the internecine power struggles revolving around the gate, about the web of allies and enemies, and, above all, about the characters and the various characters relationships. If it weren't, I would still be here after 8 years. I'm not a 16-year old male, and I'm afraid that nothing but shiny ships and things that go boom don't do it for me.


J.

[brihana25]

Ship didn't destroy anything and it didn't affect the friendships.

In your opinion it hasn't. In mine, and Ali's, and many other people's, it has done both. Your opinion is no more or less valid than ours, and vise versa. You cannot state that it hasn't destroyed anything when to so many people, it has.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any sources for your claims that the deterioration of the Jack and Daniel friendship was done at Mr. Shanks' request? Because that's a new one by me, and I'd really like to see it.

And if they stopped having little physical touches between Jack and Daniel, look to slash for that. There is no canonical slash--even in subtext--in this show, and when slash fans started pushing photo manips on the actors at cons, it hit the fan. MS himself made it clear that they've backed off from some things so as not to be grist for the slash mill.

Notice, they haven't stopped physical touches between Jack and Teal'c (the most recent being the end scene in Avatar, which was a great scene.)

It was a T-shirt worn by a woman in the audience that made Mr. Shanks uncomfortable, wasn't it? One person made one glaring error in her choice of clothing - and it was one that she was made well aware of, both by Mr. Shanks and by her fellow slash fans.

I'd hardly use that as the basis for a rallying cry of "Blame the evil slashers!"

After all, canon or not, Mr. Shanks continues to do the "Gay Daniel" on stage at conventions. He talks about it with a smile on his face, and he has a remarkable sense of humor about it, as does Mr. Judge.

Slash has existed since Star Trek TOS. It has existed in every single fandom I have ever been a part of. There is no one involved in this show that doesn't know, that hasn't known since day one, that there was going to be a slash contingent.

To blame the slashers for the lack of physical contact is simply inflammatory and insulting. To couple that with calling attention to the fact that Teal'c and Jack still interact with each other physically is simply ludicrous - or were you not aware that Jack/Teal'c slash is just as real as Jack/Daniel slash is?

There is no more canonical 'ship between Sam and Jack than there is canonical slash between Jack and Daniel. Everything is subtext. The only thing about Sam and Jack that is canon is that she's been crushing on him for eight years and that she's apparently refusing to let that go. Oh, and also that he cares for Carter more than he should, and he would rather have died than lose her... but then again, weren't Daniel and Teal'c prepared to do the exact same thing for both Jack and Carter? Weren't they willing to stand in the cave and die themselves rather than escape while they had a chance? And would Jack have left either Daniel or Teal'c standing behind that barrier and run away to save his own hide, or would he have stayed with them just the same?

What exists on screen is chemistry between the actors, not feelings of "love" between the characters. And trying to push the friendship chemistry between Ms. Tapping and Mr. Anderson (which is fantastic) farther than it can go and trying to force these two characters to "love" each other is making them both look ridiculous.

All in MHO, of course.

[Shipperahoy]

Very Minor Season 7 spoiler
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Most ship fans do feel that the fact that Jack and Sam have romantic feelings for each other are canon. I respect that others choose not to see it so and I can understand why but for me that's how it is. And I certainly don't see it as one sided at all. I don't see Sam "crushing on her boss" for 8 years. In fact, up until the latter half of season 7 most of the ship seemed to be coming from Jack's side IMO. I think that the way the ship was handled cast Sam in a certain light that was perhaps not flattering to some people. I personally didn't feel it was in Sam's character to be intimately involved with one man while still openly expressing feelings for another. But it doesn't make me think that her feelings are unreciprocated.

While I don't think that S/J is detrimental to the Jack and Daniel friendship per se it does factor in to their screen time. If TPTB decide to focus on Sam and Jack then, with RDA's limited screen time, that means that there won't be as much Jack and Daniel interaction. I've said before that I think that they could work both aspects into the show if they manage their time right and don't focus to the point of exclusion on the S/J ship. And I don't think it has anything to do with the slash contingent. I think that the lack of touching since Daniel's return was used to convey the fact that Daniel was gone for a year and maybe isn't exactly the same Daniel that he was before. I think that it has gotten better as time has passed. At least, that's the way I like to see it. I think that they were great together in New Order.

[brihana25]

I think it's you that said on the Affinity thread that you shipped a pair on some show and that when they got together the show ruined it? And you said you were on lists for that pairing, and really worked hard to bring them together *letter writing and such*? Were you thinking about other ship pairing fans when you did this - like if it's fair to them? Or did you just enjoy your preferred pairing and didn't take on the whole responsibility of pleasing every single ship fan of this show? In other words, did anyone try to make you feel guilty or wrong for loving/wanting your favored pair? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to point out that you did then what I'm doing now, so why is one wrong but the other right?

Apples and oranges, sweety.

The show I shipped for (one that you know very well, apparently ) was a shipfest from the very beginning - who's sleeping with who, who's secretly in love with who, will Mark tell Susan he loves her before she's gone forever?

Did I think about them? Certainly I did. Some of my best friends in the fandom were shipping the female of my pairing with different men, and some of them were shipping the male of my pairing with different women - some of them had already seen their pairing realized, some never did - some of them wrote letters, some of them didn't - some of them were upset, some of them were fine with it. And yes, I wrote some letters and yes, I ran a website about them. Did that have anything to do with the fact that they finally got together? Probably not, since the writers had been planning to get them together anyway.

But it wasn't the series finale. At the time, we knew we had at least two more years to go - we've gotten two more since then. Had it turned out that my "pairing" would have been realized in the final scene of the final episode ever, I'd have been railing against it - because as much as ER has always been about who's sleeping with who, it has never been the story of whether or not Carter and Abby would end up together.

Before Carter and Abby, I was very into Carter and Lucy. But it couldn't happen on the show, because Lucy was Carter's student, and he would never have violated his oath or abused his position like that. They had one stolen moment of weakness and a whole lot of UST, but it never went any further because, quite simply, they were both too honorable to let it.

But no, no one ever really tried to make me feel guilty about it. We debated it, hotly, but I don't remember anyone trying to make anyone feel guilty about it. And that's not what I'm trying to do to you either, believe it or not.

I'm talking about the writers, honey, and how they treat their fans. Not about whether you should or shouldn't feel guilty for seeing or enjoying J/S - because, quite frankly, you shouldn't. You should be as free to enjoy J/S as I should be to enjoy J/Sara and S/P.

Neither one of us really feels free to do that though, do we? I know I sure don't. I say I enjoy J/Sara, and suddenly it's all a front because I *really* want J/D together - despite the fact that I am not even remotely into slash.

So no, you're not wrong to want it. And if you get it, no, you won't be wrong if you enjoy it. And no, you're not wrong to work for it, if that's what you decide to do. And no, it's not your fault if you do get it, and you shouldn't feel guilty for that, no matter how miserable those of us who don't agree with you are left feeling in the end.

What I'm saying, what I've been saying all along, is that TPTB are wrong in the way they've handled this. They were wrong to choose sides. They were wrong to endorse one section of fans over another. And if they decide, in the end, to please one group of fans and leave the rest hanging out to dry, then yes, they're wrong.

They're wrong, Sally. Not you.

I don't need a validation, I just want them together. Maybe I don't know what you really mean by validation?

Validation. Proof that they do love each other as much as you think they do. Proof that you're right. Proof that everyone who has ever disagreed with you about it is wrong.

Because that's exactly what getting them together will do. J/S shippers (not all of them, and not necessarily you specifically) will finally be able to say, "See? We told you so! We're right and you're wrong. Nyah nyah."

And it will happen, if Jack and Sam get together. You think the fandom is divided and bitter now? Wait until one group or the other has that kind of power over the rest of us. There will be nowhere in this entire fandom that will be safe from the backlash - the militant J/S shippers will lord their victory over we losers, and we'll strike back at them just as harshly.

And that, more than anything, is why I'll leave if it happens. I cannot stand it when people treat people like crap because of fictional characters. I'm real. You're real. My pain, and your pain, mean a h*ll of a lot more to me than whether Jack is sleeping with Sam, or Sara, or the whole friggin' SGC.

I don't want this to come off harsh - please believe me- but you couldn't have been much into S/J ship in the first place if you could have become this angry and bitter and against it as you are now.

That's not harsh at all, but you're wrong.

Those things we love the most also have a tendency to become those things we hate the most when we feel betrayed by them. The night CotG premiered, I turned to my husband and said, "Oh, those two have the hots for each other." I adored Solitudes. I adored WoO. I adored BtS. But when EvoII and TLC rolled around, I realized that the thing I loved most about J/S - their dedication to their duty and their friends above themselves and their feelings - had been betrayed, and I hate it because of it.

I guess you could say that J/S is my ex-husband-ship. As much as I once loved it, I now loathe it because to me it seems the entire thing is one big, huge game that I never wanted to play.

... I don't even know how to respond to this. The writers have shown that Jack cares about everyone on his team, and the the team cares about one another. When the show highlights that two of them have sexual feelings for one another, why does that have to mean that the other relationships suddenly become invalid?

They don't become invalid - they become different. What man could order the woman he loves to sacrifice herself? What woman could choose the life of a friend over the life of the man she loves?

I have friends that I love dearly - but if given the choice between saving one of them, and saving my husband - guess who wins? Guess who lives?

But, that wasn't what I was talking about.

If TPTB go the J/S route, they will be intentionally giving the J/S shippers their happiness at the expense of everyone else. And no, I am not saying that's the J/S shippers' faults. Not at all. TPTB have placed us - all of us who are in any way invested in this show, online or off - in a position where we will either win, or we will lose.

And if that happens, and when the "losers" react in anger, TPTB will say "Oh, well, that's what the shippers wanted..."

If J/S happens onscreen, it will destroy this fandom. And no, it won't be your fault. It won't be my fault. But we will both pay for it as if it is. You won't be allowed to enjoy your happiness, because I'll lash out in anger from my misery. You'll strike back at me, and I'll strike back even harder. And in the end, no one will win, and everyone will be miserable.

And they will sit up there in their nice little offices, and they will laugh their fool heads off about it.

[Shipperahoy]

What I'm saying, what I've been saying all along, is that TPTB are wrong in the way they've handled this. They were wrong to choose sides. They were wrong to endorse one section of fans over another. And if they decide, in the end, to please one group of fans and leave the rest hanging out to dry, then yes, they're wrong.

I see what you're saying but it seems unrealistic to say that TPTB shouldn't committ to a particular storyline. If it wasn't ship then there would be another aspect of the show that a section of the fandom doesn't like. They can't let that be the be all and end all in their decision making process. No matter what they do somebody is going to end up angry. I really don't understand the "choosing sides" thing. The ship aspect was something that they decided to pursue and whatever they do with it not everyone is going to love it. I don't think that they're sitting there thinking "Who shall we side with? The shippers or the anti-shippers?".

You think the fandom is divided and bitter now? Wait until one group or the other has that kind of power over the rest of us. There will be nowhere in this entire fandom that will be safe from the backlash - the militant J/S shippers will lord their victory over we losers, and we'll strike back at them just as harshly.

That's unfortunate. But, I'm sorry to say, that even now there are militant people on both sides who are unable to be civil. I don't think that having Sam and Jack together on the show will change that for the better or the worse. It's an unfortunate state of affairs. I've never thought of the ship issue as a power struggle. It's something that I enjoy that I would like to see brought to fruition eventually. I would certainly never go the "nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah" route.

[brihana25]

I really don't understand the "choosing sides" thing.

Well... I want to say this carefully, because I know there's a very good chance that this might come out wrong, or seem like an accusation, and it's not one.

GW is quite a bit more ship-friendly(???) I guess I'd say than other boards. There are certainly a lot more J/S shippers here than in other places (which in and of itself is weird to me, having never seen a fandom reach the point of needing seperate forums for seperate points of view). I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, the presence of J/S shippers here... it's just a fact. There are more J/S shippers on GW than on any other major board in the fandom.

And where does Joe Malozzi post?

I understand that Darren has worked very hard to bring GW the recognition it has garnered from TPTB, and I think that's fantastic. I do, seriously. I think it's amazing that any member of TPTB would even bother to come to a forum to answer questions from the fans, just because he wants to, and I think it's great that the members of GW have that chance, however small, to interact with him directly.

But that Mr. Malozzi posts here, where the J/S contingent is so much larger than any other, where it is most certainly larger than anywhere else... whether or not it's intended that way, it most certainly can appear that he's choosing to listen to the J/S shippers and ignore everyone else.

TPTB of ER never came to our boards at f4f. Never. Or at least, if they came, they didn't post. Because if they had, and if they posted in the Luby thread but not the Carby one... it would have just been a really really bad idea.

That's unfortunate. But, I'm sorry to say, that even now there are militant people on both sides who are unable to be civil. I don't think that having Sam and Jack together on the show will change that for the better or the worse. It's an unfortunate state of affairs. I've never thought of the ship issue as a power struggle. It's something that I enjoy that I would like to see brought to fruition eventually. I would certainly never go the "nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah" route.

I know you wouldn't. And neither would I... not that I expect I'll get the chance, because I very much doubt that Jack and Sara will reconcile and I very much doubt that my faith in Sam/Pete will prove to be justified.

And yes, there are the militant fans on every side of every pairing imaginable. There are team fans who are rabidly against any and all romance, period. There are J/S fans who are on some kind of holy quest for True Love. There are J/D fans who will defend their OTP to the death... well, maybe not death, but pretty gosh darned far.

I don't want to hate anyone over a pairing. I will not hate anyone over a pairing. I will not treat anyone as lesser than myself over fictional characters on a television show. You won't either. Neither will Sally. Neither will JoLeigh. Neither will a thousand, or a hundred thousand, other J/S shippers out there.

But just as there are fans out there who will hate you for believing in J/S, there are fans out there who will hate me because I don't any more. And even worse, I'm an admitted "traitor to the cause," so I don't imagine those particular people have a very high opinion of me at all.

Just yesterday, I was blasted and basically called a liar for saying I like Jack/Sara. Apparently, I have ulterior motives that I wasn't aware of, and Sam is a threat to the relationship I *really* want - whatever that is, because I still don't know, being under the impression that when I say I like Jack/Sara, I *mean* I like Jack/Sara.

I don't know why ship is such a big issue in this fandom. I really don't. I've never seen anything like it before, and I thought I came from a fandom with "ship wars" of epic proportion. In a fandom for a show that is nothing *but* ship, when you've got pairings ranging from canon to UST to implied to unconventional as all h*ll, you expect a little bit of animosity at times. But no matter how bad we got, we could still talk to each other. We could still be friends with each other. We congratulated each other when our ships went canon, and consoled each other when they went bad.

The thing with us, I think, was that we never stopped being people to each other. And I think to some people in SG-1 fandom... well, to some J/S shippers, I'm not a person. And to some J/D slashers, you're not a person. And to them, Jack and Sam or Jack and Daniel are more important than we are.

I don't know quite why it is that way here (the fandom, not the forum), but it's really kinda sad that it is.