General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[LtLisa]

//Finally, about Sam/Daniel? I could cope with that. There's plenty of chemistry, there's no uncle/niece vibe, there's no 'sir' issue, and there's a believable amount of compatibility. Pretty much ditto with Sam/Teal'c. I don't especially want it, but I wouldn't find the basic idea a turn-off. I'd just wonder what the point would be. Would it enhance the SF and adventure stories? Would it be easy to keep interesting? Would it be kept in the background and hardly ever require drippy music? I doubt it. So on balance, I'd rather not. But it wouldn't make me go bleee in the way that S/J does//

see, I really couldn't cope with that...it seem almost incestuous to me. Daniel especially is like a brother to Sam...Teal'c too. (IMHO of course)

[Dani347]

I don't want anyone on SG1 to be shipped or slashed with anyone else on SG1. I've never seen any romantic feelings among any of them. However, I have never understood the argument that Daniel (and now Teal'c) are wrong for Sam because they're so especially brotherly, and it would be tantamount to incest. First, they aren't related, so no matter how it comes off, there wouldn't be a single thing wrong with it from a moral sense. Second, exactly what makes Daniel and Teal'c so much like brothers to her and not Jack? I mean, it can't be the Science Twins thing, because that only pertains to Daniel, not Teal'c.

Again, I repeat, I don't want Sam with anyone on SG1. And, the show doesn't need Sam with anyone to show character development, make them more human, show weakness, or anything. The only thing ship is necessary for is to show romance. Nothing else.

[marimba26]

I think you misunderstood. I've never intruded on a Jack/Sam thread because I respect those who believe in that ship and wouldn't try to argue against their beliefs. On the old Delphi forum I experienced a number of unpleasant incidents from a few bullies and thugs who delighted in flaming those of different opinions even on a thread that was specifically stated to be only for those who agreed with the subject of the thread. At one time I did think the Jack/Sam UST was cute and well-done but Season 7 turned it into something very annoying and unpleasant and far beyond what I've always loved about the show.

Okay, I can see how I might have misunderstood that, sorry! It does still bother me when people flame though. There's been a bit of drive by posting over on both the shipper and the anti-shipper thread of late and that bugs me because there's no reason for it other than to cause problems and I think the fandom doesn't need any more problems.

I agree that there were some real problems with Season 7. Personally, I'm glad they've dropped a lot of the angst for this season. While I love the pairing for many reasons, I'm not a huge fan of angst. To me, if there was one point that I would have changed shipwise in S7, it would have been to reduce the angst or don't bring it up. I thought the angst was fitting in Death Knell when Jack thought she was dead. I also thought that some angst was in order for Lost City when Sam thought Jack was going to die.

However, when she tried to tell him her feelings twice in Lost City without succeeding, I was frustrated. Why have her try twice if he's just going to shut her down? I have some theories but then this post would *really* be a book. I was kind of confused at that though. Why bring it up twice if there won't be culmination? Once would have been sufficient (though I've had about enough of confession interruptus LOL). It's frustrating for the shippers who just want a resolution at this point, it's frustrating for the people who are ambivalent because they don't care, and it's frustrating for the antis who were basically content as long as they could ignore it and get on with their lives.

The only way they could be really together is if one of them left the military. If there is a Season 9, Jack could retire (to cover RDA leaving), they could have a long vacation together, Sam would come back to the SGC VERY happy and the show could go on. We would have the subtle use-your-imagination method of ship that worked so well before and the show would be back to action/adventure mode again.

True. Honestly, this would work for me with one condition. After all the time TPTB spent on this, I would like (Skip this part, Shadow, don't want you to vomit ) one good, in this universe, non drug-induced, non alien-influenced, shipper-fainting kiss. Just one. Ten seconds of your lives antis and you'd be rid of me forever! (Not a bad trade-off, eh? ) Then the show could go on without another shippy moment because I would know that they were together. I'm not asking to see a wedding, I don't need a bedroom scene (Chimera had too much of that--we didn't need to see the bedroom thing to get the idea)--I just want to know they're together. I've got fanfic to fill in the blanks. Much like you D/J shippers do--nice thing about that, endless possibilities.

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, it would be a great way to bring Jack/RDA back for a special guest appearance.

I think a movie would be awesome! Not only would I see it (several times if it's good), I'd drag my *gasp* non-Stargate friends as well!

Within the Trek universe history, a couple of decades had gone by between the end of TOS and Star Trek: The Movie. The characters were older and had moved on with their lives within Starfleet. I was referring to storytelling time, not real time.

Gotcha, point taken. I like Star Trek--just not the Trekkie that my hubs is.

What all new plot line? Do you know something I don't know?

Gads, I wish!! I was just meaning an original story or even a new villain. The possibilities in the Stargate Universe are infinite! One of the things I love about this show--a new adventure every week!

Ship is wonderful when it's done with a very light touch. The reason we Daniel/Janet shippers have such a strong sense of who the two people are, why they should be together and how wonderfully their relationship has evolved is because Michael and Teryl made it that way on screen.

This pretty much describes how I feel about Jack and Sam so I understand completely. I love the way RDA and AT play off each other--the small looks are often the best--I just love the way she looks at him in Beneath the Surface when he's just shot out the glass. It's subtle but says so much to me.

It didn't need the overtness and ponderous angst that the Jack/Sam ship has now.

I'm not a huge fan of all the angst we've gotten lately. I much prefer it when they smile at each other (loving this season--lots of smiles).

Those of us who write Daniel/Janet ship fiction are very proud of our beliefs, our feelings and the work we've created.

As you should be! You write D/J fic? Cool! Where?

I sincerely hope that the Jack/Sam ship has a worthwhile and worthy resolution whether it's at series end or in a movie.

Gads, me too! From your lips to TPTB's ears! Wish they'd go ahead and get it overwith though--I think a lot of folks would be a lot happier to not have to worry about it any more!

[marimba26]

<snip>
Yeah, this always caused a ruckus for most every TV show I can remember
where there was a male and/or female lead who had great chemistry with
someone of the opposite sex. Heck, whenever MacGyver got a girlfriend,
the writers or TPTB got nasty letters. Poor Mac! Fans wanted him celibate
for 7 years. Fans wouldn't even let poor Chuck Connors ("The Rifleman" from
the 50's) get a girlfriend or a new wife. I would think TPTB welcome and
even fan the flames of such controversy, as it keeps some sort of buzz going
about the show, good or bad -- the endless debates at least show that
people are still interested in one way or another.

OzGirl

That's interesting, Oz! I hadn't thought about it like that. I guess the sure fire way to stir up debate in a fandom is to ship somebody. Gads! The ruckus over Ross and Rachel was HUGE. First the fans wanted them to get together. Then when they got together, the fans wanted the angst back. Then when they got the angst back, they wanted them back together again! Oy! I won't even bring up Mulder and Scully...

[marimba26]

I don't want anyone on SG1 to be shipped or slashed with anyone else on SG1. I've never seen any romantic feelings among any of them. However, I have never understood the argument that Daniel (and now Teal'c) are wrong for Sam because they're so especially brotherly, and it would be tantamount to incest. First, they aren't related, so no matter how it comes off, there wouldn't be a single thing wrong with it from a moral sense. Second, exactly what makes Daniel and Teal'c so much like brothers to her and not Jack? I mean, it can't be the Science Twins thing, because that only pertains to Daniel, not Teal'c.

I'm replying to you Dani but it's also a reply to Madeleine's (sorry if I misspelled that, I can't look just now) post as well. The wonder twins thing--I always thought that was a rather silly notion and I confess to having seen the basis for the Daniel/Sam shippers, it just isn't my preference. That said, the last time I watched "Children of the Gods" (a few weeks ago), I think I finally saw where the wonder twin thing came from! When Daniel and Sam are talking in the cartouche room they both steadily get more excited then there's a break in the convo and I couldn't help but think "Wonder Twin Powers, Activate!"

Gads, does that date me or what? Does anyone here even remember Superfriends?

Again, I repeat, I don't want Sam with anyone on SG1. And, the show doesn't need Sam with anyone to show character development, make them more human, show weakness, or anything. The only thing ship is necessary for is to show romance. Nothing else.[/QUOTE]

[Madeleine]

OzGirl, sorry for overreacting to a comment that was meant lightheartedly. I'll try and be less touchy.

If each of them found a different significant other once and for all, and then these weren't mentioned much, except in passing ("Brunhilde dropped me off at work today, and she made this cake!"), would that straighten things out for you? I guess it's too late for the show to redeem itself?

I'd like that. Although yes, I suppose it's a bit late for it now. Speaking generally and not just about Stargate, Mentioned In Passing is a nice way to deal with a character's personal life; it would let me feel that they were happy at home with someone to wake up to, it wouldn't impinge on all the SF that I like to see. It isn't vastly different from the character *not* having a SO, except for the enhanced confidence I have in the show not doing a "Teach me about the thing you earthlings call... Love" scene - or of course not Shipping two main cast-members that I find incompatible.... Worf and Troi would *never* have happened if she'd married the nice young man she was supposed to and then kept him in The Cupboard Of Absent Characters for six years, saying the occasional "Have to dash, I'm supposed to meet whats-his-name in Ten Forward soon", or something.

But mostly what I like about your scenario is that she's called Brunhilde

[Dani347]

Just jumping in here. I know I'm behind, and I've been mostly silent,
because to me the debate is rather useless in that nobody's mind is going
to be changed much. But what the hey.

Well, I don't think it's a matter of changing minds (can't happen). Just airing views.

Yeah, this always caused a ruckus for most every TV show I can remember
where there was a male and/or female lead who had great chemistry with
someone of the opposite sex. Heck, whenever MacGyver got a girlfriend,
the writers or TPTB got nasty letters. Poor Mac! Fans wanted him celibate
for 7 years.

And, this shows just how differently I think. First, while I certainly never wrote nasty letters while watching Macgyver, I didn't care if he had a girlfriend or not. It didn't seem important to me. If he would have gotten a long term one (as long as she didn't interfere with the whole Macgyver aspect of the show) I wouldn't have objected, but having one/not having one, so what? Second, although I only consider the whole thing when it's brought up (like now) I wouldn't have thought he was celibate. Just because we didn't see a girlfriend? We don't see their entire lives. Even though I only get a glimpse of SG1 outside the base (I mean when they're on earth) I know they have some semblance of lives outside, even if I don't see it. And, the only way I would spend any time thinking "does this one have a significant other or not" is when they call attention to it.

And, I still can't help feeling that a lot of this is because Sam is female. Which producer or writer said something about them feeling something like unnatural love and hate because of being so closely tied and spending so much time together? I'm assuming they all feel like that. But, why is it that this closeness is signified as close friends and surrogate family (which is a truly important bond, and shouldn't be thought of as lesser) among the men, but when Sam gets close, she's gotta feel romantic (and, I still say the only reason I can see that these 'feelings' came for Jack is because he's the lead character). Why can't she just feel close to all her teammates like brothers? I know it doesn't seem that way to some, but it certainly seems to come off that way to me.

[OzGirl]

And, this shows just how differently I think. First, while I certainly never wrote nasty letters while watching Macgyver, I didn't care if he had a girlfriend or not. It didn't seem important to me.

It never bothered me, either, when Mac got the girl. Didn't make him any
less "eligible" in my fan fantasies! LOL I think many fans sort of take
"ownership" of their favorite character. (My character is like this, and
by God! Don't mess with him, writers! ) I guess some fans get jealous
or upset when their own fantasies get trampled. Thus the nasty mail.
I hope I've never gone *that* far in my fandom!!

But I do enjoy seeing some little moments of the personal lives of favorite
characters, whether that involves boyfriends, girlfriends, relatives, old
enemies, whatever.

I like to know, "What does this character do when he's not doing the
role for which he is known?" That's just a thing for me to keep
my interest up. I could imagine all sorts of stuff. So let's say the
writers want to show a piece of Jack's personal life, just for kicks.
If I had a choice of seeing a.) how he makes really tasty spaghetti,
b.) how he enjoys his beer bottle collection, or c.)that he has a
girlfriend, well the thing that adds interest to many shows for me is
romance. So I would choose c.)

Many others would not! As long as any personal glimpses don't
dominate the series (This week: The ongoing saga of Jack's
struggle with his dog's heartworm!), I say go for it. Show me.

I really wouldn't mind seeing O'Neill get a girlfriend. Maybe I project myself
into that role! (Hubba, hubba.) Who knows? I'm a software engineer,
not a psychiatrist! But I'm also a romantic.

Second, although I only consider the whole thing when it's brought up (like now) I wouldn't have thought he was celibate. Just because we didn't see a girlfriend? We don't see their entire lives.

I know. The "celibate" thing was an exaggeration. Just because you
don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. How many times do we
see anybody on any planet go to the bathroom? I rest my case.
I simply find glimpses of characters' social lives somewhat interesting.
[See above.]

And, I still can't help feeling that a lot of this is because Sam is female. <snip> But, why is it that this closeness is signified as close friends and surrogate family (which is a truly important bond, and shouldn't be thought of as lesser) among the men, but when Sam gets close, she's gotta feel romantic (and, I still say the only reason I can see that these 'feelings' came for Jack is because he's the lead character). Why can't she just feel close to all her teammates like brothers?

I have to agree that it seems to happen frequently for female characters,
or even real life females, like myself, who work among mostly men. There
is a social undercurrent that asks, "How can she be a "friend" for so long
and not have had sex?" That's too bad. If Jack hugs Daniel or touches
Teal'c's face with a reassuring gesture, it is friendship. If Jack hugs
Sam or even dares to touch her face -- has he ever??? Only in the
Jolinar episode, that I can think of -- then they must be sleeping together.
Whoa!! But that's our society, I guess. One TV show maybe isn't going
to change years of social psychology, unfortunately. IMO!

[marimba26]

And, this shows just how differently I think. First, while I certainly never wrote nasty letters while watching Macgyver, I didn't care if he had a girlfriend or not. It didn't seem important to me. If he would have gotten a long term one (as long as she didn't interfere with the whole Macgyver aspect of the show) I wouldn't have objected, but having one/not having one, so what?

I think the crucial difference between these other shows mentioned and Stargate is the level of emotional investment that we've all put into it. Personally, this is the most invested I've been in a show. I've never participated in an online fandom, formed friendships which began from common love of a show, or had lengthy debates about an aspect of a show before. I think the fact that we're all here discussing a subject we all feel passionately about (whether it be for or against) shows the level of emotional investment that we have ALL put into Stargate.

Second, although I only consider the whole thing when it's brought up (like now) I wouldn't have thought he was celibate. Just because we didn't see a girlfriend? We don't see their entire lives. Even though I only get a glimpse of SG1 outside the base (I mean when they're on earth) I know they have some semblance of lives outside, even if I don't see it. And, the only way I would spend any time thinking "does this one have a significant other or not" is when they call attention to it.

True. If they hadn't called attention to it in the first place maybe none of us would be having this discussion. A point brought up earlier in the thread concerning Daniel and Janet was that this wasn't the case for them. Many Daniel/Janet shippers point to this as a good point because they can imagine what they want and I agree to a certain extent with that idea. I probably wouldn't have noticed anything between Jack and Sam if I hadn't seen D & C (I am a bit slow when it comes to subtleties ).

And, I still can't help feeling that a lot of this is because Sam is female. Which producer or writer said something about them feeling something like unnatural love and hate because of being so closely tied and spending so much time together?

I don't remember reading anything like this but if you ever run across it, would you please PM me the link? I'd love to read it!

I'm assuming they all feel like that. But, why is it that this closeness is signified as close friends and surrogate family (which is a truly important bond, and shouldn't be thought of as lesser) among the men, but when Sam gets close, she's gotta feel romantic (and, I still say the only reason I can see that these 'feelings' came for Jack is because he's the lead character). Why can't she just feel close to all her teammates like brothers? I know it doesn't seem that way to some, but it certainly seems to come off that way to me.

As far as Sam being a woman, I'm not sure how to answer. To me there have been myriad problems in television as a whole when an all-male writing team tries to write women. I think this has showed up in Sam's case a number of times and not just where it pertained to ship. I remember reading somewhere that, after the pilot was picked up, AT asked the writers to "write her like Daniel". I'm trying to remember where I read that but if it is true, it sounds like she had some issues with the way they were writing Sam early on.

There have been very few SG-1 eps written by women which is a great loss for SG-1 IMHO. It doesn't even look like Amanda will get to direct again after Resurrection--which makes me very unhappy because, while I didn't think much of the ep (mainly because I thought it was a neat idea that didn't fully come to fruition), I thought Amanda did a beautiful job directing. I thought the shots fit the mood of the scenes and were extremely well done.

[Mar9645]

I agree that there were some real problems with Season 7. Personally, I'm glad they've dropped a lot of the angst for this season. While I love the pairing for many reasons, I'm not a huge fan of angst. To me, if there was one point that I would have changed shipwise in S7, it would have been to reduce the angst or don't bring it up. I thought the angst was fitting in Death Knell when Jack thought she was dead.

I liked the moment at the end of Death Knell when Sam rested her head on Jack's shoulder and he protectively and affectionately put his arm around her. That spoke volumes about their relationship on many levels.

True. Honestly, this would work for me with one condition. After all the time TPTB spent on this, I would like (Skip this part, Shadow, don't want you to vomit ) one good, in this universe, non drug-induced, non alien-influenced, shipper-fainting kiss. Just one. Ten seconds of your lives antis and you'd be rid of me forever! (Not a bad trade-off, eh? ) Then the show could go on without another shippy moment because I would know that they were together. I'm not asking to see a wedding, I don't need a bedroom scene (Chimera had too much of that--we didn't need to see the bedroom thing to get the idea)--I just want to know they're together. I've got fanfic to fill in the blanks. Much like you D/J shippers do--nice thing about that, endless possibilities.

As I said, leave-it-to-the-imagination sublety always works best, in episodic TV anyway. Fan fiction is where we writers have free rein and readers like you can enjoy it ALL.

This pretty much describes how I feel about Jack and Sam so I understand completely. I love the way RDA and AT play off each other--the small looks are often the best--I just love the way she looks at him in Beneath the Surface when he's just shot out the glass. It's subtle but says so much to me.

I'm not a huge fan of all the angst we've gotten lately. I much prefer it when they smile at each other (loving this season--lots of smiles).

In Proving Ground, when Jack is ranting about the trainees and says something really contradictory, Sam does that little 'you know you're wrong' smile. That look has improved over the years and works so much better than the in-your-face angst that showed up in too many Season 7 episodes.

As you should be! You write D/J fic? Cool! Where?

I have four stories on Gateword's fan fiction site: Gifts, The First Time, Aftereffects and Last Day with three others in various stages. I'd also recommend works by Isabelle Ashe (fabulous!), SaraC and Michelle Lunsford, also on the Gateworld site. There are other sites and other writers out there. Try a Google search for Stargate SG-1 fan fiction.

Gads, me too! From your lips to TPTB's ears! Wish they'd go ahead and get it overwith though--I think a lot of folks would be a lot happier to not have to worry about it any more!

The last five episodes of Season 8 that we don't know about yet are the key. Let's hope TPTB accomplish what you and the rest of the Jack/Sam shippers want/need to happen. Whatever they come up with won't satisfy everyone though. The important thing is that there's a worthwhile story arc resolution and that it's worthy of the two characters and the excellent actors who portray them.

[Shipperahoy]

There has been an interesting ongoing debate over in the Affinity thread that I think would be better suited here. Is there a way that TPTB could end SG-1 that would would allow all party's to be, if not completely happy, then at least content?

Personally, I don't think so. I think that whatever is done someone is going to feel shafted. If J/S end up together shippers will be happy but most everyone else will hate it and vice versa. Even if they go the ambiguous route like has been suggested, with maybe the possibility of J/S but left really vague, there will still be people who are unhappy. Personally I think that whatever is done TPTB should committ to it 100%. If they're going to tick people off no matter what they do then they should just go gung ho. Resolve it completely one way or another. As a J/S shipper I would have to say that I would rather see them make it abundantly clear that J/S will never be rather than to leave it up in the air.

[brihana25]

There has been an interesting ongoing debate over in the Affinity thread that I think would be better suited here. Is there a way that TPTB could end SG-1 that would would allow all party's to be, if not completely happy, then at least content?

As I said in the Affinity thread (and I do apologize for going so way OT over there), I'll believe it possible until the credits roll on the final episode. To me, it's not a matter of whether or not it can be done, but whether or not TPTB will care enough about all of their fans - not one group or the other - to actually do it.

Personally, I don't think so. I think that whatever is done someone is going to feel shafted. If J/S end up together shippers will be happy but most everyone else will hate it and vice versa. Even if they go the ambiguous route like has been suggested, with maybe the possibility of J/S but left really vague, there will still be people who are unhappy.

To steal a line from Star Trek and modify it to apply: The satisfaction of the many outweighs the satisfaction of the few.

No, making every single fan out there happy isn't possible. There are those who will be "happy" with nothing less than everything they want - there are those who are not and will never be willing to compromise, no matter what is at stake.

It's a matter of numbers, quite simply.

Assuming that J/S shippers constitute 1/4 of the overall fanbase: there are those who would be left satisfied with an ending that is "open" to J/S ship - that is to say one that doesn't completely shut it down, but doesn't completely validate it either. From what I've seen here on GW, that's a rather sizable percentage. In addition to those, there are even more who would be, though not satisifed, not made miserable by it.

Building on the 1/4 assumption, that means that 3/4 of the fanbase is either invested in another ship/slash pairing involving Sam and Jack (J/D, J/T, J/Sara, S/D, S/T, S/P, etc) or simply don't care who ends up with who in the end.

And out of those J/S fans, how many would be made completely and totally miserable by an open ending? Relatively speaking, there'd be a handful. And there would be a handful of people in each of the other pairings that wouldn't be any more satisfied with an open ending than those J/S shippers - there are J/D slashers that won't be satisfied until J/D is realized onscreen, there are those S/D shippers that won't be satisifed until S/D is realized onscreen, and so on and so on - but that is an amazingly small amount of people out of the 3/4+ of the fanbase that could and would be left satisfied with an open ending.

But if TPTB have the possibility - and they do - of making the largest number of fans the most satisfied with the show in the end, the best way to guarantee the largest amount of satisfaction is to leave the ending as open to interpretation as the beginning was.

I wasn't around the online fandom in 1997, obviously. I've not even been part of it for a year yet. But tell me honestly - weren't ship discussions in the early seasons (Sam loves Daniel - no she doesn't, Sam loves Jack - no she doesn't, Sam loves Teal'c...) a lot less heated and a lot more enjoyable back when no one was "with" anyone onscreen? Back when every episode had the possibility of making the majority of the fans happy? Back when every look, every line, every passing glance, was open to interpretation rather than being *explained* to us as "Oh, look... that's *love* in her eyes right there..."?

Personally I think that whatever is done TPTB should committ to it 100%. If they're going to tick people off no matter what they do then they should just go gung ho. Resolve it completely one way or another. As a J/S shipper I would have to say that I would rather see them make it abundantly clear that J/S will never be rather than to leave it up in the air.

The only thing I think they should be committed to 100% is making their fans happy. And no, like I said, it's never going to be possible to make every single fan happy because, again, some people just aren't going to be happy with anything less than everything *they* want, and to h*ll with anyone who doesn't want the same thing.

As an ex-J/S shipper (who, somehow, was able to ship Sam/Martouf and Jack/Sara right alongside them) who at one time wanted their sacrifices for each other to be rewarded in the end, I would rather see them leave it open for me. If EvoII had been left open to interpretation, I could still believe that the expression on Sam's face was one of concern for both Jack and Daniel rather than "love in her eyes" for only Jack and not giving Daniel even a passing thought. If Grace had been left open to interpretation, I could still believe that Sam believes herself to be a strong, independent woman who could, in the end, go to Jack because she *wants* him, not because she *needs* a man to be happy. If TLC had been left open to interpretation, I could still believe that Sam would always put Jack's best interests ahead of her own and would never try to put him in a position of having to deal with *her* feelings while he should have been getting *his* life in order before he died.

If Season Seven had been left open to interpretation, I'd still be a J/S shipper. And yes, I'd most likely still be shipping S/P alongside them (because I happen to think S/P are adorable together) because I would still believe that, in the end, I would be left with an ending that would allow me to think that J/S could be together, and I wouldn't have had to suffer through an entire season of watching Sam behave like a teenager in heat before then.

[ShadowMaat]

Oh, I know I'm not gonna be happy no matter what. It's already "too much" so I doubt things are ever going to get any better. I'm guessing TPTB are going to throw the shippers a huge fat WHOPPER of a bone in the finale which will prove "conclusively", once and for all, that Sam and Jack are doomed/destined to be together. If the producers go that route, it will effectively ruin the entire series for me.

If they decide to go the cutesy route and only allude to a possibility (like the famous fishing invitation), that won't work for me either because I'll know that they're going the cutesy route and that they're doing it to imply ship without fully committing to it. That's almost worse because it taunts shippers and it patronizes non-shippers.

If they make no reference to it at all or imply that nothing will ever happen between them, well... On the one hand I'd love it- or I'd want to love it. But on the other, it would probably be the worst choice of all. They'd be denying the existence of something that a majority of online fans (at least around here) know is "real" and it would SEVERELY piss off every shipper in fandom. I don't want that, either, and not just because some of my best friends are shippers. It would be just as brutally unfair to them as a 100% total ship resolution would be unfair to the anti-shippers. There's also the fact that I frankly don't trust TPTB and even if they were stupid enough to go with a 100% ship-free finale, I'd expect it to be ladled on twice as heavy in any movies or miniseries.

[Bucky]

Following the "needs of the many" argument, I suspect that TPTB will be best off with a clear, but restrained ending with S/J together.

I'm guessing wildly here, but I suspect there are probably about 1/16th to 1/8th of the total viewership who are intense S/J shippers who will not be happy unless they see Sam and Jack doing what Sam and Pete did: Date, kiss (several times) and wake up in bed together. Similarly, there are probably equal numbers who will be burned with even an ambiguous hint that S/J will be together at the end. And I also suspect that the cutsey 'go fishing' ending that ShadowMaat complained about is not going to make anyone happy.

Everyone else is in various degrees of wanting/not wanting S/J ship. EG, I'm not in that "intense" group, but I still see myself as an S/J shipper--I'd be happy with a clear suggestion they would be together, but I don't have to see them waking up from a wild night of passion. I'd like a *kiss,* but if leaving out a kiss would mean a clear statement that they are together, then I'd rather have the clear statement.

I still think the vast majority of viewers--most of whom are not online--don't really care about ship one way or the other. If it's not there, they don't miss it; if it is there they don't mind--it's just another part of the show. So I think it would leave more fans feeling good about the show if the concluding episode establishes that Sam and Jack will be together and if that point was just a PART of the conclusion--NOT the point of the conclusion--just buried somewhere in the final episode. Assuming the rest of the concluding episode was good, then, I think most fans would say "okay" about S/J and the shippers would say "HOORAY!"

Bucky

[blueiris]

Following the "needs of the many" argument, I suspect that TPTB will be best off with a clear, but restrained ending with S/J together

-I'd be happy with a clear suggestion they would be together, but I don't have to see them waking up from a wild night of passion. I'd like a *kiss,* but if leaving out a kiss would mean a clear statement that they are together, then I'd rather have the clear statement.

Bucky

I consider myself an intense shipper, in that I really enjoy the ship and want it to be resolved in a positive manner, but not to the point of saying I hate a character or will not watch if something anti-S/J happens (although I wouldn't be happy, not one little bit). But I feel that because they (tptb) started it, those who supported the S/J ship should get a proper ending. A *clear* suggestion that they are together would be sufficient. But not a *take it either way you want* ending.

And speaking as someone who hasn't been on-line very long, I am a shipper, and of those that I know that watch and are not involved in on-line fandom, which is exactly 4 people, 2 would be considered shippers, and the other 2, while not exactly shippers, feel that there is attraction between Sam and Jack, and just consider it understood and have no problem whatsoever with it.