General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[stargate barbie]

Ok, I haven't read all eight pages of this, so forgive me if I repeat something.

I actually like the episodes quite a bit where they have to deal with their little angsty love issues, but what do these guys have in common outside of their work? Heck, what do they have in common inside their work? I don't find them a terribly realistic match. IMHO, Carter needs to hook up with another brain, and Jack needs somebody with a comparable sense of humor.

we don't really know that much about what they have in common outside of work, but they do have some things in common. we could speculate based on what we've seen so far. inside of work, they have, guns, stargates, fighting bad guys, discussing silers latest injuries , and several other things. they do have to work quite closely together. jack has a brain, he's actually quite smart. he just doesn't like science, other than astronomy. and sam does really seem to appreciate his sense of humour, and does have one of her own.

besides, you ever hear the term opposites attract?
also i've got lots of friends that i don't really have that much in common with. its all part of the fun of expanding ones horizons and such

_________________________
this is all just my opinion. i save my dictatorship tendancies for important things. like my plot to take over the world.

[ShadowMaat]

Dragging this thread to the fore again just because I can.

It seems to me that some people have a tendency to confuse ship and shippers. If I say I hate ship, that doesn't automatically mean I hate shippers nor does it mean that I think that the thoughts/opinions of shippers are any less valid than my own. All it means is- now, see if you can follow along with me, here- I. Hate. Ship. See? It's that simple. It doesn't say Shippers and it never will.

I hate the way that Sam/Jack ship is currently being portrayed on the show (that, folks, is what is known as a "qualifying statement"). I think that it is destroying the show- or, at least, it's destroying the show for me. I can no longer enjoy the show because the Sam/Jack ship- which I hate- has become too prominent for me to ignore it.

Does this mean that I want ALL ship to end, immediately, and never be mentioned again? Well... that would be unrealistic for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that ship is now, blatantly, already there, so ignoring it at this point would be too jarring to the continuity of the show. I may hate ship, but since it's there I think (unfortunately) it has to continue or TPTB are in danger of looking even more foolish (to my eyes) and they will seem dangerously inconsistent. One minute Sam and Jack are totally in love, the next they're just co-workers/good friends? No. That doesn't really work for me. Once you start down that path, there is no turning back.

As for shippers... contrary to popular belief I do not want to see them all wallowing in abject misery from a lack of ship. In an ideal world, TPTB would find a way to maintain a balance so that BOTH shippers and anti-shippers could be happy with the focus and direction of the show. In my opinion, S7 screwed any chance of that ever happening and TPTB have made it abundantly clear- to me- that they fully intend to carry through with ship come hell or high water and damn anyone who doesn't like it. Fortunately, most of the shippers I know tend to be a little more rational about it. Some of them even agree with the anti-shipper complaint that ship has become too blatant.

I don't want shippers to suffer, but I don't see why anti-shippers should have to suffer in their stead. I have seen Pro- folk ask Anti- folk why they should have to "give up" what they like just to make the Anti- folk happy. But doesn't the argument work just as well in reverse? Why should Anti- folk have to give up what THEY like just to make the Pro- folk happy? The answer is simple: no one should have to give up anything. There is something called a compromise. Say it with me, folks, "Com-pro-mise". Maybe that does involve a bit of "giving up", but it comes from BOTH sides, in fairly equal proportion. Mostly, it's a matter of "settling".

I may hate ship, but I would be willing to settle for having it continue if it became less blatant and if the storylines focused on actual plots and not ship. Likewise, I would hope that shippers would be willing to settle for the more subtle form of ship instead of expecting Sam and Jack to "get it on" in an ep.

I, personally, don't think that that's a tremendous sacrifice to make for either side. Whether or not something like that might actually happen is another argument entirely, and not one I'm willing to go into at the moment.

Can people get what I'm saying and understand the distinctions I'm trying to make? Obviously I can only speak for myself and not ALL anti-shippers, but I think it's fairly safe to say that- for the majority at least, Anti-shippers are no more "against" Pro-shippers than Pro-shippers are "against" Anti-shippers. Can we at least all agree on that?

[Shipperahoy]

I don't want shippers to suffer, but I don't see why anti-shippers should have to suffer in their stead. I have seen Pro- folk ask Anti- folk why they should have to "give up" what they like just to make the Anti- folk happy. But doesn't the argument work just as well in reverse? Why should Anti- folk have to give up what THEY like just to make the Pro- folk happy? The answer is simple: no one should have to give up anything. There is something called a compromise. Say it with me, folks, "Com-pro-mise". Maybe that does involve a bit of "giving up", but it comes from BOTH sides, in fairly equal proportion. Mostly, it's a matter of "settling".

I may hate ship, but I would be willing to settle for having it continue if it became less blatant and if the storylines focused on actual plots and not ship. Likewise, I would hope that shippers would be willing to settle for the more subtle form of ship instead of expecting Sam and Jack to "get it on" in an ep.

Dear Lord. Shadow is that you? Compromise? You think that TPTB could work out a way to make both shippers and anti-shippers happy? <touches Shadow's forehead> You don't feel warm. Well, I certainly want whatever happy pills you're on. I feel somewhat responsible for this lighter more optimistic side of you. See how insidious it is? While your sarcasm was rubbing off on me my belief that TPTB could do a storyline that doesn't completely alienate a section of the fandom was rubbing off on you. Sniff...I feel so proud.

[ShadowMaat]

Dear Lord. Shadow is that you? Compromise? You think that TPTB could work out a way to make both shippers and anti-shippers happy?

Now now, Shipper dear, before your ego gets even MORE inflated, I never said that TPTB were capable of making compromise and I frankly don't think they're interested in trying- I just said that a compromise is what is needed.

[Shipperahoy]

Ah, that sounds more like the Shadow I know and....know. And omnipotent beings can't have inflated egos. And I still think that they could do it if they really tried. La, la, la, la, la, la, la. (skipping back off to the happy land)

[ShadowMaat]

Ah, that sounds more like the Shadow I know and....know. And omnipotent beings can't have inflated egos. And I still think that they could do it if they really tried. La, la, la, la, la, la, la. (skipping back off to the happy land)

Ah, but WOULD they try?? Because I don't think they would. "Compromise" is another word missing from their dictionary... along with "Subtle" and a few other important words.

[stargate barbie]

Com-pro-mise.

well there's a start.
but yes i do think that compromise could work here. i was perfectly happy with the more subtle ship. i like the occasional bit of overt but for the most part i just like to know that these people have a specialy relationship, and two of them just happen to be in love. i really don't like to see one episode being completely devoid of ship and the next one full of ship. it just doesn't make sense. thats not balance, it just comes across as indecisiveness to me.

i like the relationship between all the characters to be subtle in fact. i don't think anybody needs sam and daniel friendship moments shoved in their face every few episodes, just so we know they're good friends, for example. we just can tell by looking at how they interact with each other. like jack and daniel relationship. we don't have to have it shoved in our faces every other episode, and everybody can have their own interpretation of how their friendship works. its pretty much cannon that they are friends, the depth of that friendship is open for interpretation. some people think they have a friendship based solely on an antagonistic relationship, some think they hate each other but tolerate each other, some think they're like bunny rabbits

anyway, to get back to my main point, we shouldn't have to have any relationship on the show have a marching band and a parade exclaiming its existence all the time just so we know its there.
having said that, i'd still love to know that at the end of the series, sam and jack are together. i just don't want them playing tonsel hockey every other scene. once a season is fine!

[ShadowMaat]

Since the issue of "equality" in relationships was recently brought up on another thread, I figured I'd address it here.

Whether or not Sam and Jack are "equal" in their relationship is only partly related to the issue of rank, as far as I'm concerned. Of much more importance (to me) is the mentality of the people involved.

For example: Sam and McKay are on more or less equal footing in terms of education and scientific standing. However, McKay sees himself as being far superior to Sam and until or unless he is willing to admit that he isn't, I can't see them ever having a lasting relationship.

Now, Jack understands that Sam is far smarter than he is, but I still don't get the feeling that he treats her as an equal. He tends to look down upon her intelligence and only really seems to appreciate it at all when it comes in handy for whatever crisis they're facing... and then only for as long as it takes to solve the crisis and gods forbid she should try explaining anything to him. I personally do not feel that he gives her the respect that she deserves and that his "mentality" regarding their social ranking is very unequal. I don't think he will ever admit to it, either, and as long as he doesn't, I think that the two of them would be an unsuitable match.

There are far more reasons why I object to Sam/Jack ship, the biggest of which is that I think they have no sexual chemistry, no "spark", but since the issue of equality was raised, I figured I'd give my own interpretation of the matter.

[bcmilco]

Interesting post.
I thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the pot

Now, Jack understands that Sam is far smarter than he is, but I still don't get the feeling that he treats her as an equal. He tends to look down upon her intelligence and only really seems to appreciate it at all when it comes in handy for whatever crisis they're facing... and then only for as long as it takes to solve the crisis

All I can say is I've never felt that way.

and gods forbid she should try explaining anything to him.

I've always seen this more as an objection to her timing then her actual explaination. Off the top of my head Allegance. When she tries to explain how she'll make the invisible guy visible, that was a really bad time, while she's explaining it someone else could be getting killed and the allience is falling apart around them.

At the time all he needed to know was that it could be done, not how. Not excusing his less then polite way of doing it, but I think part of his frustration comes from wanting to be doing not talking.

Also we see in "Matter of Time" that Jack went out of his way to ask Sam to explain wormholes to him, but they also weren't in the middle of a "situation" where time was a factor. It was at a time when, IMO, an expliation would make more sense.

I personally do not feel that he gives her the respect that she deserves and that his "mentality" regarding their social ranking is very unequal.

The few times we've seen them in "social" situations I've gotten the feeling that he treats her with a lot of respect, and very much as an equal. At work however he is the boss.

[Shipperahoy]

Now, Jack understands that Sam is far smarter than he is, but I still don't get the feeling that he treats her as an equal. He tends to look down upon her intelligence and only really seems to appreciate it at all when it comes in handy for whatever crisis they're facing... and then only for as long as it takes to solve the crisis and gods forbid she should try explaining anything to him. I personally do not feel that he gives her the respect that she deserves and that his "mentality" regarding their social ranking is very unequal. I don't think he will ever admit to it, either, and as long as he doesn't, I think that the two of them would be an unsuitable match.

I don't think that he looks down on her intelligence, just her long winded way of explaining things when a simple answer would suffice. That's part of what I like about them. He keeps her from going overboard and getting too involved in whatever scientific theory that she happens to be spouting at the time. It's pretty obvious that he doesn't really care about the how's and why's so much as the what's and that seems kind of normal for a military man. And she helps him to look at answers other than blowing stuff up. And I don't think that Jack's all that stupid. I don't think that you can become a colonel if you're a complete moron. I'm a big fan of opposites attracting.

I'm kind of curious about why the age difference bugs people. It's only about 12-14 years right? It doen't seem that big of a deal to me and I am curious as to what exactly about it squicks some people out.

[stargate barbie]

yeah i would guess that the age difference between characters is about 10 years, and probably more like 15 between the actors but thats more speculation than anything. i don't see the big deal. they are both adults who know (more or less) what they're doing. sean connery has acted with women (as his love interest) who were 29 years younger than him and its rare that people make anything out of things like that.

i don't think that either of them sees the other as being better or worse than the other. at this stage they are good friends who trust and like each other, and i don't think people can get to that stage in a friendship or working relationship if there are issues like that between them. he takes in and listens to her advice in a situation if he sees the need for other opinions. he respects her and her opinions, and that is one of the things i quite like about them.

as for the chemistry thing, hey, its all a matter of perception i guess. personnally the chemistry that i saw between them from the get go was one of the things that turned me into the shipper i am today.

[keshou]

The age difference doesn't bother me. Very true to life actually, from my experience and observation divorced men around Jack's age often date women 10-15 years younger.

I also don't think Jack dismisses Sam's scientific technobabble because he looks down on Sam's intelligence. Jack is just a bottom-line type of guy and is usually operating in a position where time is of importance in getting to a solution. He often cuts Daniel off in the same manner. I think he's probably pretty impressed by her brain power, I mean he called her a "national treasure". Jack has got good gut instincts, something Sam doesn't always have. Those can be more of an asset in a crisis situation than all the intelligence in the world. They kind of balance each other out in that regard.

My biggest problem with Sam/Jack has always been the romantic chemistry, just didn't see the romantic spark once they started escalating the ship in season 4. Saw lots of awkward scenes. But I realize I'm probably in the minority on this.

Next biggest problem is the inequality in their ranks. Sam calls Jack "sir", has to salute him, has to follow his orders. All that kind of squicks me out when I think of them having a relationship. Again, I realize I'm probably in the minority on this. Maybe if I saw the romantic chemistry this wouldn't bother me so much.

Hopefully they can find some way to please everyone, don't know if it's possible. At this point I wish they would pile all the mail from the "pro" and "anti" factions in the corner and come up with an imaginative vision for ending the show, a vision that stays true to the precepts they began the show with.

I won't mind a subtle Sam/Jack resolution as long as I'm still seeing the things I enjoy: team adventures, good interaction between all the team members, good stories, believable villains, consistent characterizations and interesting character development for all the team members.

[stargate barbie]

i would really not be a happy shipper if they were to just ignore or discard the ship in the last few episodes. if they were to resolve it in a way that just indicated that they were going to abandon the relationhship or show that the feelings have changed. basically if the sam/jack thing doesn't end with some form of happy ship, i'll be pretty bothered.

however, if they were to turn it into the sam and jack show, and forget that they even have friendships with the other guys, i would absolutely hate that. if they did another chimera, with sam and jack especially, but really with any characters, i'd hate it. for an entire episode that is.
sg-1 is about the four of them. and the bum kicking action. with the occational character development episode and character development moments thrown in throughout the actiony episodes.

one can never please everyone completely. i think the key word here is compromise.
or maybe the key phrase is shut up and let the writers do what they want, but that just doesn't sound as nice for us, does it?

[ShadowMaat]

i think the key word here is compromise.

Ah good, you remember what I taught you.

At this point, I'm resigned to being upset with however they choose to end the series because I know, deep down, that it's going to be chock-heavy with ship and that there will be no compromise whatsoever for those who don't wish to see Sam and Jack together.

The show is very decidedly TPTB's and they are rather definitely (IMO) marking their territory in this and many other regards... even if it means pissing all over the fans while they do.

[bcmilco]

The show is very decidedly TPTB's and they are rather definitely (IMO) marking their territory in this and many other regards... even if it means pissing all over the fans while they do.

Your use of visual imagery is always so... entertaining?