General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[ShadowMaat]

I don't think you're trying to lay the blame at the feet of shippers, but I sort of get that vibe from the last couple of paragraph. I just thought you should be aware of that.

I'm not, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I know that the writers are a bunch of shippers, so if anyone's to "blame" it's them, but I'm honestly curious if shippers could have been happy with the show if TPTB hadn't ramped up the ship in S7. Whether that includes Pete or not is up to you (general you). I'll get to that later, maybe.

I'm gonna drop the rest of whatever I was attempting to say in that paragraph because I can't explain it adequately and because the logic of it is probably wrong.

[GateGipsy]

...because the logic of it is probably wrong.

hee hee couldn't help picking up on this...Shadow admitting to being illogical? **rubs eyes** surely not!

[ShadowMaat]

hee hee couldn't help picking up on this...Shadow admitting to being illogical? **rubs eyes** surely not!

I'm still on cold medicine, so I have to admit the possibility that it's making me a little incoherent... or more incoherent than usual.

[Shipperahoy]

I'm still on cold medicine, so I have to admit the possibility that it's making me a little incoherent... or more incoherent than usual.

Excuses, excuses.

[ShadowMaat]

Excuses, excuses.

Hey, I'll use whatever works- and people are gullible. They'll believe almost anything.

"My grief over the treatment of Pete is clouding my judgement."

The best lies contain a grain or two of truth... Maybe even more than a few grains.

[stargate barbie]

ok i've briefely skimmed through here, and i'm not saying that there SHOULD be ship in most shows, just that there tends to be. and it is not my belief, it just seems to be the general norm. especially in sci fi shows that follow the 'formula' of a show like sg-1.

i'm gonna shut up offering my thoughts here for a while i think, because i seem to be annoying or at least bugging some people with my opinions on the current lines of discussion. maybe i'm not expressing myself adequately here, but it is not my intent to challenge, or start arguments, just to attempt to let people into my thoughts on the subjects, and the thoughts of some other people i know who are not online.

[bcmilco]

I wasn't talking about her attitude to her job, just to the colonel and the general. I agree that she does her job well for its own sake and out of personal pride and professionalism, not for pats on the head. She'd do a good job regardless of who her CO was, but I do think she takes a little extra pleasure in doing a good job when it meets with the warm approval of a senior officer held by her in high regard.

Yes, but who doesn't like to hear that they did a good job, especially if it's coming from someone you respect? To me it just seems normal, especially if you take so much pride in your work

In *this* thread? Are you a bit loopy or something

Not completely loopy, because this one's short

[Liebestraume]

Up thread the popularity of Law and Order was used to argue how a TV show does not need romance to succeed. I do not disagree with this line of reasoning. However, having been a veteran viewer of the said show, I also find myself understand very little about its main characters as individuals. Nor do I seem to care, because what brings me back week after week is the intricacy of its plot. To me, that is the staple of a successful plot-driven show.

IMHO SG-1 is of a different breed. The team's fantastic exploits notwithstanding, the human drama -- that of the main characters and how others people impact them -- is what makes their story compelling. Thus far, every other type of relationship, from family to friends to adversaries, has enhanced the character drama. So, even as a noromo who is usually ambivalent about 'ships, I have to ask this question: why must romance not have a place on this show?

Moreover, I'll concede that I am partial to the main characters. I followed the show because I wanted to know how the past shaped these people, and I look forward to the new season because I care about what the future holds for them. To me, the secondary characters are more or less plot-devices, whose presence merely to further "story of the week" or the personal journey of the main character(s). As such, if a romance were to become a permanent arc on the show, I'd prefer it between the main characters.

That is not to say SG-1, or every character-driven show, must have a 'ship. In fact, too often romantic entanglement is brought in, as a rating stunt or to string viewers along, but adds nothing to the character development. However, on rare occasions some writers have managed to (pleasantly) surprise me; so I'd like to keep an open mind as to the possible direction for the J/S relationship (and hope TPTB does it justice whichever way they decide). As of now, the only thing blatant between them is their friendSHIP. And I quite enjoy that.

[SallyK]

IMHO SG-1 is of a different breed. The team's fantastic exploits notwithstanding, the human drama -- that of the main characters and how others people impact them -- is what makes their story compelling. Thus far, every other type of relationship, from family to friends to adversaries, has enhanced the character drama. So, even as a noromo who is usually ambivalent about 'ships, I have to ask this question: why must romance not have a place on this show?

The problem with romance in a team show, is that by its very nature it is exclusive, it excludes those outside the chosen pairing. It pushes one relationship at the expense of the others. The first three seasons showed friendship between all of the team members, but the attempt to introduce a romance excludes all others. For example, in the first three seasons Daniel and Sam were good friends, in fact, I would have said that they were closer than Jack and Sam were. Suddenly we get season 4, Divide and Conquer and Daniel and Sam hardly exchange a word not directly related to the peril of week. As for the Jack and Daniel friendship, the heart of team and the show, I don't think I need to go in to the problems that the pushing of ship has created for that in the last season.

This would be a problem with any romance between the main characters. There are of course the other problems that apply specifically to this relationship, but I'm sure you've heard them before.

As of now, the only thing blatant between them is their friendSHIP. And I quite enjoy that.

Oh, how I wish I could see it that way. I used to be quite happy not seeing ship, pointing out that there was no on-screen evidence for it. Sadly, Sam's behaviour since Grace has eliminated that comfort for me. I still see it as completely one-sided, but I can no longer ignore it altogether.

SallyK

[stargate barbie]

Up thread the popularity of Law and Order was used to argue how a TV show does not need romance to succeed. I do not disagree with this line of reasoning. However, having been a veteran viewer of the said show, I also find myself understand very little about its main characters as individuals. Nor do I seem to care, because what brings me back week after week is the intricacy of its plot. To me, that is the staple of a successful plot-driven show.

IMHO SG-1 is of a different breed. The team's fantastic exploits notwithstanding, the human drama -- that of the main characters and how others people impact them -- is what makes their story compelling. Thus far, every other type of relationship, from family to friends to adversaries, has enhanced the character drama. So, even as a noromo who is usually ambivalent about 'ships, I have to ask this question: why must romance not have a place on this show?

Moreover, I'll concede that I am partial to the main characters. I followed the show because I wanted to know how the past shaped these people, and I look forward to the new season because I care about what the future holds for them. To me, the secondary characters are more or less plot-devices, whose presence merely to further "story of the week" or the personal journey of the main character(s). As such, if a romance were to become a permanent arc on the show, I'd prefer it between the main characters.

That is not to say SG-1, or every character-driven show, must have a 'ship. In fact, too often romantic entanglement is brought in, as a rating stunt or to string viewers along, but adds nothing to the character development. However, on rare occasions some writers have managed to (pleasantly) surprise me; so I'd like to keep an open mind as to the possible direction for the J/S relationship (and hope TPTB does it justice whichever way they decide). As of now, the only thing blatant between them is their friendSHIP. And I quite enjoy that.

you are way better at this than i am.
i think what i was trying to say before, was that although i don't find it neccessary, most shows, or at least most popular shows, do tend to involve ship on some level. more than that, a lot of shows that run for a number of years tend to include some kind of romantic entanglement between main characters. some shows do this better than others.

so far, i think TPTB of stargate have handled ship pretty damn well. i know there are many who would disagree, but personally i think, with a few minor exceptions so far they've done a pretty good job of maintaining the quality of the show, where many have failed. when they started to up the ship a smidge in season 4, i started to get worried that they were gonna moonlighting the show. that didn't happen, thank god!

believe me, i tend to be pretty picky about ship in tv shows. i've gone off entire shows in the past partially because of how such things were handled, and i've been a shipper for previous pairings on other shows, and have gone completely off the pairing because it was handled poorly in my opinion.
i hope this is more clear than i was before, and less offensive.

[ShadowMaat]

so far, i think TPTB of stargate have handled ship pretty damn well. i know there are many who would disagree, but personally i think, with a few minor exceptions so far they've done a pretty good job of maintaining the quality of the show, where many have failed.

I disagree with this opinion so thoroughly that I don't think there are enough words to describe it. The ship? On Stargate? Handled well??! Not from where I've been sitting. But hey, to each his/her own.

Bad writing ruined Stargate for me. The fact that ship was part of that writing only makes it that much worse. And that's MY opinion.

[stargate barbie]

The problem with romance in a team show, is that by its very nature it is exclusive, it excludes those outside the chosen pairing. It pushes one relationship at the expense of the others. The first three seasons showed friendship between all of the team members, but the attempt to introduce a romance excludes all others. For example, in the first three seasons Daniel and Sam were good friends, in fact, I would have said that they were closer than Jack and Sam were. Suddenly we get season 4, Divide and Conquer and Daniel and Sam hardly exchange a word not directly related to the peril of week. As for the Jack and Daniel friendship, the heart of team and the show, I don't think I need to go in to the problems that the pushing of ship has created for that in the last season.

This would be a problem with any romance between the main characters. There are of course the other problems that apply specifically to this relationship, but I'm sure you've heard them before.



Oh, how I wish I could see it that way. I used to be quite happy not seeing ship, pointing out that there was no on-screen evidence for it. Sadly, Sam's behaviour since Grace has eliminated that comfort for me. I still see it as completely one-sided, but I can no longer ignore it altogether.

SallyK

in D&C i didn't see sam and daniel as having any real need or opportunity to speak on a personal level. jack and daniel were just as close as ever.
i find that a tv show will not have a conversation between two characters just to show that they are still friends, if it doesn't benefit or further the plot of that particular episode or arc. teal'c didn't have much interaction with anyone in D&C either. it wasn't neccessary. a tv show only has 40ish minutes to get a whole story told. thats precious time.
in season 7, i think that they are just as close as they have ever been, and that is displayed when neccessary. however, a whole lot happened in terms of character development with sam and teal'c in particular in season 7. maybe becuase the schedules of AT and CJ were more permitting, who knows? teal'c became more human over the last few seasons, and that needed to be shown, so perhaps that is why he got more of the personal moments, plus daniel is still regaining some of his memories. in chimera sam and daniel were just as close as ever. in grace her interaction with her image of daniel was pretty easy going and relaxed. (a shippy episode, some might say ) in fallen, it was sam and jack who helped to convince daniel to come back with them. etc...

if i tried or wanted to i might be able to see most of the overtly shippy scenes as friendship. and the lesser shippy scenes, like in death knell, can definitely be seen as friendship, same goes for the end of evolution and the hug in heroes 2. the fact that i've seen ship from the start means that i'm more likely to see a scene as shippy, but in death knell, for example, i just saw that as a friend comforting a friend (due to my interpretation of their relationship i could see a deeper meaning to it) after a very trying ordeal.

"it excludes those outside the chosen pairing"
i don't see why it should. each one has a different relationship with each other one. just because jack and sam have one kind of relationship doesn't mean that it excludes daniel or teal'c from having a deep meaningful friendship with them. in my own group of friends, certain people have paired up with each other and nobody else feels excluded when we are all together.
when jack took teal'c to jello wrestling (possibly with daniel) i doubt if sam felt excluded, because that was their friendship time, which was unique to them.

"It pushes one relationship at the expense of the others."
why? it shows one relationship, while in another scene they might show a meaningful personal scene between two other characters. in grace they showed moments between all the team, individually.
in fallen they showed moments between every one
in evolution they showed moments between jack and daniel, in their little friendshippy guy like way.
in chimera their were some sam and daniel moments.
in heroes there were some sam and teal'c moments.
in lost city there were some very nice all team moments.
in birthright(?) there were some great jack and daniel moments.
i could go on, but most people probably stopped reading a long time ago.

if i'm misinterpreting your meaning here, please clarify. thanks. and if you survived to the end of this post, Congratulations! there should be a cake

[Shipperahoy]

I don't think that ship has ruined Stargate. I think that J/S have a lot of chemistry and I enjoy them onscreen together. In fact I don't think that the show is ruined at all. What I do think is that they way the ship was written this last season has taken away from the Daniel and Teal'c storylines and away from the basic storylines to a degree. I think that there is definately a way for the writers to write S/J ship without making it the focus of the entire show. I like the ship but I would also like to see more Daniel storylines and definately some Teal'c storylines and I wouldn't mind if they used the Stargate every now and then either and if I have to give up some of the more overt ship to get that then I'll deal with it.

Although I still say that they writers can find a way to make it all work. I'm awfully optimistic lately. I really don't know what's wrong with me.

[stargate barbie]

I disagree with this opinion so thoroughly that I don't think there are enough words to describe it. The ship? On Stargate? Handled well??! Not from where I've been sitting. But hey, to each his/her own.

Bad writing ruined Stargate for me. The fact that ship was part of that writing only makes it that much worse. And that's MY opinion.

thats fine. i understand that you've been unhappy with the way a lot of things have been handled on the show, the ship being prominent on the list.

but please. for the love of anything you hold dear. please. tell me that you didn't like how they did it on moonlighting or on voyager. please!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
just for curiosity, what precisesly about how the ship was handled did you not like. from a writing, directing, producing, general point of view. what would you change. i know mostly what i'd do differently, but i'm curious about you. don't die from shock or anything here , but of the anti shippers who post around, i generally tend to respect your opinions (except your pete loving tendencies ), more than most. maybe its the sarcasm and our mutual love of mckay? i don't know.

nb. no offense meant to anyone else here. i swear!!!!

[ShadowMaat]

Although I still say that they writers can find a way to make it all work. I'm awfully optimistic lately. I really don't know what's wrong with me.

Tsk tsk tsk. You'll learn better soon enough.

Maybe YOU think the writers can recover and maybe, for you, they can, but TPTB have taken something I've never really liked and made it SO obnoxious and SO overt and SO in-your-face that what was a simple dislike to me is now a full-blown frothing-at-the-mouth loathing of anything even remotely resembling ship. Because of that, they can't back off, not for me. My entire viewing experience has been tainted by their- in my opinion- atrocious writing and their moronic handling of the situation.

The writers will never give up overt ship. They are too enamoured of the coupling and too in love with their "handling" of it to bother changing. And if they did back off? It makes them look even more incompetent. One minute, Sam is ready to give up everything she is just to jump Jack, the next they barely even glance at each other as they pass in the hall? No. I don't buy that. But then, fortunately, I don't have to buy it, do I? I can write the final chapter of Food Server Diaries without ever having to watch an ep of S8.