General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Dani347]

I am at a complete loss here how to have a discussion here in this thread.

Easy. you say how you feel. And, here, it can be either pro ship or anti ship or neutral.

As for Shadomaat's examples, she (?) seems to do what I do. Pulls out analogies that may not directly relate to the show letter by letter. Which may be why I don't have a problem with them. A farmer and his pig? Just a way of saying that forbidden relationships aren't always romantic or good. And, for some people just because Jack and Sam would be forbidden doesn't mean it would be good storytelling.

talking civilly about the reasons and what not behind why they saw things differently. What they felt added and subtracted from the show.

Have you sensed some uncivility? I admit I'm extremely passionate about how I feel, maybe to the point of being volatile, but I can't see that I or anyone else has been uncivil.

[TameFarrar]

I was also saying that, for me, arguing about the Regs seems pointless because there are too many ways for the various parties to argue it as a way of to "proving" their points.

This we can agree on.

You don't have to "discuss" my post at all if you don't want to. I was simply making a statement/posting my observations.

I realize that Shadow.
But I would really like to see more of both parties talk a bit more because there really are not as many divergent points as both anti shippers and pro shippers might think. But as I read through this type of thread I get turned off by that type of comment and then just don't comment period which defeats the whole purpose of the thread in my eyes. So this time I spoke up. And because I do post along side you in other threads I felt you would treat my post with respect, Thank you.
Too many feel that any *neutral* ship thread will become a shooting match and I would like to show them it is not. That both sides can *discuss*. I saw that in earlier pages but it had begun to deteriate (can't spell today).I also realize that by my calling you out I am just as guilty. So Its a merry chase I think.

[TameFarrar]

So start one and see if anyone joins in.

If nothing else Shadow You do make me laugh these days!!!!

btw...I did....just go up

[ShadowMaat]

Too many feel that any *neutral* ship thread will become a shooting match and I would like to show them it is not. That both sides can *discuss*.

I'll cry guilty on that, then. I saw Jaffa's post as being a statement declaring that Regs get broken and that means it's OK and that ship should happen on Stargate because it's only natural for it to happen. Being the sort of person I am, I replied with a statement of my own in which I tried to directly contradict what Jaffa said. I don't appreciate being told that I should allow ship to happen, so I found examples to refute it.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss the subject as long as someone doesn't try and tell me what I should think or finds examples to "prove" that their view is the correct view.

Yes, it's perfectly likely that Jaffa didn't intend her (his?) post to come across as anything other than an opinion or a "pointing out" of a situation, but I read it how I read it and that's that.

While I don't think Sam and Jack have any chemistry, I wouldn't have minded if the subtle ship had continued. Being naturally inclined to see into things and being in this fandom, I did "see" occasional moments between them, I just ignored them because they didn't work for me.

However, as I've said many times before, ship has now become a three ton pink elephant sitting among the ducks: it's almost impossible to ignore and I take severe umbrage at being forced to recognize it. And that's how I see it: blatant, unmistakable, and shoved down the throats of the unwilling.

Ship doesn't NEED to be obvious, the fans who want to see it are going to see it no matter what. So why upset the fans who don't want it? Why not let the ship stay in fics? What is gained by its addition? Because from where I'm sitting, the only thing blatant ship has "added" is to make the characters less enjoyable for me to watch and it makes Sam seem weak and over-emotional. Jack... he seems colder and more distant than ever. This is supposed to be GOOD for the show? How?

[bcmilco]

People may not want to discuss the regs, and feel free not to, but I always thought it was proven. Straight from Sam's mouth in Heroes:

Even if there was potential for something more ... and I'm not saying that there is err ... our military positions, and the very nature of our jobs wouldn't allow for it.

In black and white (or blue and white, I'm quoting from the Gateworld transcript of Heroes1). So, my arguments as far as the regs go don't have to do with the real life ones, they have to do with the ones that are established on the show, and that all the way up to Heroes, Sam herself has said exist.

Going strictly by what they've insinuated in the show, and leaving out RL regs. I agree: That being in a romantic relationship while they are in their current possitions is wrong. However, and again I'm going by what they've showed us in the show, it's not wrong for them to have feelings for eachother and that doesn't preclude the possibility of a relationship near the end of the show.

When the show ends, I can't see them doing a TNG where they go on like they were before, especailly considering that's what Atlantis was made for. Maybe this is the shipper in me, but I've always seen the show ends with 4 good friends parting ways, and moving on. Teal'c going to lead/take part in what ever the Jaffa are currently doing, Daniel getting his own team or department to continue his research and his quest for knowledge, and J/S going off to Minnesota.(I'll let TPTB work out all the fine details )

And, yeah, I'd like to think Sam still has enough integrity to not go against them while she's naming them as a reason why the pairing can't happen.

I agree, and as hard as I find it I think that's why she tried/is trying to move on with Pete, because she does respect the military too much.

Part of what makes Jack 'Jack', and Sam 'Sam' is their respect and honor, and their devotion to duty. And for me that conflict between duty, honor and love does make it a great story to tell.

[Dani347]

Ship doesn't NEED to be obvious, the fans who want to see it are going to see it no matter what. So why upset the fans who don't want it? Why not let the ship stay in fics? What is gained by its addition? Because from where I'm sitting, the only thing blatant ship has "added" is to make the characters less enjoyable for me to watch and it makes Sam seem weak and over-emotional. Jack... he seems colder and more distant than ever. This is supposed to be GOOD for the show? How?

Couldn't say it better myself.

[bcmilco]

Ship doesn't NEED to be obvious, the fans who want to see it are going to see it no matter what. So why upset the fans who don't want it? Why not let the ship stay in fics? What is gained by its addition?

I didn't come into online fandom until mid-s7. Seeing Jack and Sam in s1-3 sparking off eachother as much as I saw I sat there and said, "why the hell haven't they done something about it?!?!" For me, it seemed like the logical and natural next step for them to aknowledge it and make it more blatant, and I'm assuming that it was for a majority of the viewers because I keep hearing how the show is getting more and more popular each season. And considering that the majority of those fans don't follow the show online, and don't read fanfic and dont do all the things that fans do, it makes sense, to me, that TPTB would continue to show the S/J relationship, and even bump it up a few notches, as they did in s7.

And I agree with something Tame said erlier. Since I've always seen 'ship in the background it doesn't hit me in the face, it doesn't over-shadow the rest of the episode and it's a nice addition when they use it.

That said I can understand that it must be frustrating for people who don't see it to have it brought to the fore time and again. And while I empathise, I'm not willing to sacrifice a part of the show that I love. Yes, that makes me selfish, but I think you'll find that we're all a little selfish when it comes to what we, individual, want Stargate SG-1 to be.

[Madeleine]

That said I can understand that it must be frustrating for people who don't see it to have it brought to the fore time and again. And while I empathise, I'm not willing to sacrifice a part of the show that I love. Yes, that makes me selfish, but I think you'll find that we're all a little selfish when it comes to what we, individual, want Stargate SG-1 to be.

I'll agree with that, everybody wants what *they* want, and that's human nature. I'm as selfish as anyone else, I'm sure.

I understand that you don't want to sacrifice a part of what makes the show good for you. But it feels, to me, like the noromos' sacrifice is set to be far far bigger than any the shippers are even remotely likely to have to make.

If the show were to go *my* way, with no more ship of any sort, you'd still be able to see ship in the scenes where Sam and Jack spoke to or about each other. And to imagine it happenning offscreen. You'd miss the amount of it, I know, and the intensity of it, but would the show be *spoiled* for you if Sam and Jack aren't shipping at each other? Would you get ickked out without warning at regular intervals?

I *loved* Stargate's way of not assuming that Single Pretty Female in the company of Leading Man must equal Romance. Other shows do that, I know, but it was soooo refreshing to find a show that didn't. I always thought that the reason Sam and Jack had no romantic chemistry was because they were playing it on purpose to emphasise the *professional* nature of their relationship. I loved their professional relationship, and recently I've had to sacrifice that.

I wasn't online till mid s6, and honestly didn't even know there were such things as shippers or ship. I had read interviews by AT saying how she was happy that the show wasn't hooking Sam and Jack together, and had taken those interviews at face value.

So you can imagine what an unpleasant surprise the last few eps of S7 were to me.

And it isn't just that I've lost a part of the show that I loved. I could cope with that, I coped with Daniel leaving even though he was the very essence of SG-1. I could cope with Sam leaving. I could cope with Jack leaving. And I do miss the close platonic professional relationship they had. But it hasn't just *gone*, it's been perverted into something that is actually unpleasant for me to watch.

To me it feels like romance for the sake of not being the only show on air not to have romance. It feels ickky cos Sam is by nature of her position Jack's subordinate yes-man, and has little experience of arguing with him, let alone holding her own different opinion. It feels ickky cos Sam seems to think that a word from Jack would be enough to persuade her to give it all up for him, but she's not got the nous to ask him, or even to request a transfer and wait and see if he makes a move. It saddens me cos I have always seen Sam as so poised, happy and confident until recently, when she became rather wet.

It feels ickky cos I can see no reason for them to want to get together, apart from that they are both attractive looks-wise. I get such mixed messages - Jack seems to radiate hostility to Sam, and she gazes at him looking pained while shippy music plays. I prefer relationships to *mean* something, and I can't see that in Sam and Jack so I get ickked.

The fact that it's dull and detracts from the Adventure is neither here nor there, in terms of what i'm trying to say. I can cope with a moment or two of dullness, it doesn't ruin the show for me. Ditto the strong correlation between the increased ship and Jack being virtually forbidden from being in scenes alone with either Teal'c or Daniel; whether or not that's just coincidence I don't know, but lack of J/T and J/D won't ruin the show for me, however much I miss it. But the way S/J ship sours the character of Sam for me, and would sour Jack too if I ever saw ship coming from him, that's very frustrating, when there's nothing to be gained by it at all, for me.

I'm not denying that there is selfishness in my post. I just feel rather depressed that overt and blatant ship seems to be increasingly present when no one *needs* ship to enjoy the show, and when it actively *spoils* the show for many more.

[bcmilco]

If the show were to go *my* way, with no more ship of any sort, you'd still be able to see ship in the scenes where Sam and Jack spoke to or about each other. And to imagine it happenning offscreen. You'd miss the amount of it, I know, and the intensity of it, but would the show be *spoiled* for you if Sam and Jack aren't shipping at each other? Would you get ickked out without warning at regular intervals?

The closest analogy I can think of is if Teal'c's character had stayed the same as it was in season 1, we'd never learn about what makes him tick, we'd never learn about who he is. Granted he'd have more lines, so it would be all bad, but the character would become stagnant and stale, IMO, because we'd never be uncovering the new layers.

Sure it can be wrtten into fanfiction, but it's not the same, there isn't the actors bring themselves to the part, making the role theirs. I love reading, but when I'm watching TV I want to see whats going on, I want to see that relationship I've emotionally invested in go on to the next step, I want to see it develope.

Plus, just for the sake of clarification, I don't see ever scene between them as shippy, in fact there were only 2 or 3 scenes in all of s5 that I'd consider shippy. And while I liked s5 and thought it was very solid, none of them stand out from the crowd as being anything extra special IMO, and while that's not completely due to ship it is a factor.

I wasn't online till mid s6, and honestly didn't even know there were such things as shippers or ship.

When I got online I, nievely, thought that it was the most obvious thing in the world that Sam and Jack were attracted to eachother. Needless to say I was rather shocked when I found out that not only did some people not see it, but some were actively opposed to it. I had a point... I think

It feels ickky cos Sam is by nature of her position Jack's subordinate yes-man, and has little experience of arguing with him, let alone holding her own different opinion.

The reason that doesn't bother me is because I've never seen Sam as Jack's "yes-(wo)man", I've always seen them as equals seperated by a chain-of-command, and that's always the perception I've gotten from them when they interact. There have been several times where I've gotten the impression that if it weren't for the fact that Jack was her CO she would have argued or given him a piece of her mind. Something I think we got a hints of over the years.

It saddens me cos I have always seen Sam as so poised, happy and confident until recently, when she became rather wet.

Okay here we can agree Recently I feel that Sam's character has been battered and I'm none to fond of the wishy-washy Sam either. I think it's a great disservice to the strong independant woman that attracted me to the character in the first place.

Ditto the strong correlation between the increased ship and Jack being virtually forbidden from being in scenes alone with either Teal'c or Daniel; whether or not that's just coincidence I don't know, but lack of J/T and J/D won't ruin the show for me, however much I miss it.

Personally I'm hoping that they've solved this problem, because I love to watch all of them interacting with eachother.

I just feel rather depressed that overt and blatant ship seems to be increasingly present when no one *needs* ship to enjoy the show, and when it actively *spoils* the show for many more.

I may not *need* ship to enjoy the show, but if it weren't for ship I don't think I'd have ever gotten into the show more then watching it when it was on TV. For me the 'ship added an extra draw, a little spice, it made the show all the more interesting and attractive to me, and pushed me over the cliff into the abyss that is fandom

[Madeleine]

I'm not going to reply to most of your post, cos it's quite clearly all subjective what I see and what you see when we watch the same show, but your post is a good read and it's always nice to get a better understanding of *why* other people have such different views.

The reason that doesn't bother me is because I've never seen Sam as Jack's "yes-(wo)man", I've always seen them as equals seperated by a chain-of-command, and that's always the perception I've gotten from them when they interact. There have been several times where I've gotten the impression that if it weren't for the fact that Jack was her CO she would have argued or given him a piece of her mind. Something I think we got a hints of over the years.

At first I thought Sam considered herself an 'equal' person of lower rank, in CotG she certainly did. Pretty soon though there seemed to be a bit of hero-worship coming in, and as time went on she seemed more and more to act subordinate to Jack. That made sense though, Jack was quick to show her what an excellent CO he was, and how he was prepared to go an extra mile and more for his team and for Earth. He deserved her respect and loyalty. I thought it was rather sweet, the way when she was disheartened, as in Serpent's Lair or Solitudes, just a few words from him would pep her up, or how proud his praise made her feel in Secrets. Her attitude to Jack was not far off her attitude to General Hammond - she was eager to please and completely trusting, and happy to be under the command of such a worthy officer. That's a part of the professional relationship I liked. She knew her importance, her specialist knowledge and skills being so valuable that she knew she was worthy of a place in the premier SG team, but she was still a little in awe of Jack O'Neill.

Since CotG and First Commandment in s1 I've only ever seen Sam taking a stand against Jack when under the influence of alien technology. Recently he belittles her, ("science project", "knitting", "get to the point") and she seems to have no way to retaliate. Jack is just as sarky to Daniel, but Daniel can dish it right back. If he was behaving better to her the ship would make a little more sense.

I miss the S-J of early seasons, when Jack was an incredible leader and Sam held Jack up as a hero. I'm not saying Sam should constantly argue with Jack, it wouldn't be 'her', not with the high esteem in which she holds him *as a leader*. But I think that hero-worship is a poor foundation for a romantic relationship, especially when Jack isn't (IMO) the hero he once was. Sam certainly isn't the professional she once was.

[sgeureka]

My preference is to keep the ship in fanfic.

You mean just the ship of Stargate, right? If you erase everything from TV that can be interpreted as ship/love, you would be left with the news channel and the wheather channel.... erm.... forget the news channel.... too many Danish weddings

[sgeureka]

I *loved* Stargate's way of not assuming that Single Pretty Female in the company of Leading Man must equal Romance. Other shows do that, I know, but it was soooo refreshing to find a show that didn't. I always thought that the reason Sam and Jack had no romantic chemistry was because they were playing it on purpose to emphasise the *professional* nature of their relationship. I loved their professional relationship, and recently I've had to sacrifice that.

When I began to watch Stargate, I thought it was a very refreshing concept that there would be *no* relationship to endure between anyone on the team because of the regs. I don't mind TV relationships, but I hate UST when it begins to resolve just to become UST again and so on like it happens/happened between Ross&Rachel on Friends. I think I don't really care how TPTB approach the S&J relationship in the end of the series but I love the idea that I don't have to be afraid that S&J will get together *during* the show (and I think TPTB won't bring them together in the middle of the show no matter how much a few hardcore shippers want to see a relationship played out or how many hardcore anti-shippers say they hate the single indication of a look between the characters).

[sgeureka]

When I got online I, nievely, thought that it was the most obvious thing in the world that Sam and Jack were attracted to eachother. Needless to say I was rather shocked when I found out that not only did some people not see it, but some were actively opposed to it. I had a point... I think

It was so obvious to me that I was also a little surprised in the beginning And so I began to ask my sister and my brother and my cousins, who I had never asked before about SG, what they were thinking about it, and I was surprised that they didn't have much of a well-thought-out opinion about anything SG-related. They just thought it was a fine show and they liked to watch it. It is not important that everyone has to have a love or hate "attitude" (couldn't think of a better word ), because most often you can't even say why you (don't) like something. The forum only made *me* realise what *I* liked, and only *now* would I be able to have a serious discussion about Stargate.

[ShadowMaat]

You mean just the ship of Stargate, right?

Since this discussion is about Stargate, my comments relate to Stargate.

[bcmilco]

but your post is a good read and it's always nice to get a better understanding of *why* other people have such different views.

Thank you, so were yours

At first I thought Sam considered herself an 'equal' person of lower rank, in CotG she certainly did.

*nods*

Pretty soon though there seemed to be a bit of hero-worship coming in, and as time went on she seemed more and more to act subordinate to Jack. That made sense though, Jack was quick to show her what an excellent CO he was, and how he was prepared to go an extra mile and more for his team and for Earth. He deserved her respect and loyalty.

*nods* I agree that Captain Carter has a little hero-worship for Colonel O'Neill, and that their professional relationship helped to forge her respect and loyalty.

she was eager to please

I don't agree with the connotation of this phrase, I've always seen her as eager to do her job and do it well and right, but not usually to "please"

and completely trusting, and happy to be under the command of such a worthy officer. That's a part of the professional relationship I liked. She knew her importance, her specialist knowledge and skills being so valuable that she knew she was worthy of a place in the premier SG team, but she was still a little in awe of Jack O'Neill.

I agree, for the most part. The professional relationship is what allowed them to get to know eachother, and because of it they've gotten closer, and as they've gotten closer I've seen most of her awe and hero-worship go away.

Since CotG and First Commandment in s1 I've only ever seen Sam taking a stand against Jack when under the influence of alien technology.

Off the top of my head, she argued with him in "2010", and She was going to argue with him in "Scorched Earth" but she didn't have a convincing argument

I doubt if I could come up with more, but like I said I've seen her bite back on retorts and while in an actual relationship that wouldn't be good, I can't see it taking her long to adjust to being his equal. TLC for example, it didn't take her long to use her "power" over him. Point is while she hasn't argued with Colonel O'Neill, I can't see it taking her much time to adjust to arguing with Jack O'Neill.

Recently he belittles her, ("science project",

That one I didn't see so much as belittling as I saw it as a friendly jibe or dig.

"get to the point") and she seems to have no way to retaliate.

As you pointed out he says this one to Daniel as well. IMO it's done to move the plot along, because usually when he says that, the recipient usually does exactly that, even Daniel. We don't need all the details, and neither does Jack so they have him cut the person off, yeah it's a little harsh, but the two of them(S/D), especially, do tend to ramble

But I think that hero-worship is a poor foundation for a romantic relationship

While I agree with that statement, I don't think her hero-worship is what their relationship is based on. Over the last 7/8 years she's gotten to know the man behind the Colonel and I think it's that which she's attracted to.

Darn, I was trying to keep it short