General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Liv]

Only speaking for myself - I know my arguments against both Jack/Sam and John/Teyla tend to be very similar - I have mostly similar issues with both pairings - not exact, but similar.

Same here. Although, at least Teyla doesn’t have to call Sheppard ”Sir” all the time. But yes, my issues when it comes to both of these ships tend to be the same. Possibly not the same as yours, Killdeer, although one never knows.

Sometimes I think I’m the only one on this forum who doesn’t ship any of them. Maybe I am. I did like the potential of Sheppard/Weir at one point (season one), but I got over that pretty quickly.

I much prefer having scenes where Teyla (for example) rolls her eyes at Shep (when he fibs the numbers on how many Wraith he really killed) or teases him (like she did when he was on his way to the date with Chaya) or gets miffed at him for calling her ”The invisible woman” (Fantastic Four conversation). It’s tons more enjoyable for to me watch than the tired old routine of ”will they/won’t they” angst.

[Killdeer]

Same here. Although, at least Teyla doesn’t have to call Sheppard ”Sir” all the time. But yes, my issues when it comes to both of these ships tend to be the same. Possibly not the same as yours, Killdeer, although one never knows.

You never know. Comparing S/J and J/T - yeah, there's a lot of similarities for me. But yeah, there are some differences - you're right about the name thing. The Carter/Sir thing always bugged me with S/J - I personally can't imagine being in a relationship with someone that I called "Sir" most of the time. That's not an issue with John and Teyla. On the other hand, I think Jack and Sam were layered into the show much better than John and Teyla. I had to be told that John and Teyla were supposed to be the canon couple, and that was three seasons in - I didn't pick it up from what was on screen. With Jack and Sam, however, I was picking up hints as early as Broca Divide.

Sometimes I think I’m the only one on this forum who doesn’t ship any of them. Maybe I am. I did like the potential of Sheppard/Weir at one point (season one), but I got over that pretty quickly.

I actually didn't get on board with Sheppard/Weir until Adrift - isn't that ironic? (although even now I'm not sure I consider myself fully on board - more clinging to the side. ) The thing is - and apologies to those of you that have heard this refrain from me before - I just have huge issues with any ship that has power/authority issues. CO/subordinate, boss/employee, teacher/student, mentor/mentee..... I just can't get on board with any relationship with those kind of issues involved. To pull in some examples from outside Stargate, I was uncomfortable with Spock and Uhura in the latest Star Trek movie because of the implication that she had been one of his students. And in Numb3rs, there was Don/Liz (although that show gets points for realizing the issues and dealing with them within the show), and Without a Trace had Jack Malone/Samantha Spade. So this is not just a Stargate issue for me. I know not everyone has this particular hangup, and that's fine. But it is a major issue for me.

With John/Elizabeth - I kinda had the idea from the beginning that J/E was the writers' chosen ship. Turns out I was very wrong about that, but that's what I was seeing. And I did enjoy their chemistry, but I wouldn't have ever been able to get on board with them as a couple while she was still John's boss. So I don't think it's any coincidence that I started being more open to the idea of them together about the time she stopped being his boss. And I think if they'd brought her back in some capacity as a consultant or advisor or diplomat, where she was still in John's life but not in a position of authority over him, I would have been all over that.

Been reading the replies to my questions earlier (thanks btw ), and been thinking about that.

I think the Lois & Clark experience has maybe soured me unfairly on resolving a relationship too fast on a show. I've been thinking about some of the other couples that I like, and how I would imagine a show after they got together.

Farscape - I was fine with the show ending where it did (as long as we're counting PKW). It feels like a complete story to me. OTOH, I could see more story there. Just because John and Aeryn are married with baby doesn't mean the adventures have to stop and that they're just going to settle down and live a boring life on Moya.

And I guess the same goes for Harm & Mac, and Castle & Beckett (although I personally think we're a ways away from that). Chuck put Chuck & Sarah together this last season - we'll see how that works out this next year. Although I confess I do have a few reservations on that one - I like them as a couple, but I don't totally like how the team dynamics have shifted since they got together. So I don't know. Still thinking about it. Thanks for the replies though. I think part of this has to do with what I said a few pages ago - I'm not so interested in UST or RST - it's more the friendship/caring/bonding type stuff that I get into. But....I guess there's no reason that has to go away once a couple gets together. I guess I just tend to OD on the schmoopy love stuff pretty quickly.

[VampyreWraith]

I just wanted to say that this scene is probably my favourite D/V scene ever. It was brilliant. If only they had behaved like that more often...



I’m not sure if I qualify to answer that when there’s only one couple I’ve ever shipped, but I’ll give it a try.

I agree with the others that it’s not really about not liking will-they-won’t-they dance but rather about how long the dance lasts. Sometimes years and years of UST are believable, but more often they are not and lead you to losing interest and becoming wary of it in the future.

Honestly, I don’t know what storylines I’d like to see once UST turns into RST. In majority of shows I watch that leads to marriage/break-up/kids storylines that rarely are interesting enough to hold my interest although it’s not a rule (Dexter is a good example of a show that does it right, mostly). I guess it all depends on the writers' skills. The good ones can do some pretty interesting things with an established relationship, those not so good eventually lose me as a viewer. In general though I prefer the couple to get together at the very end of the show.


I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this.

The questions below are addressed to you, b/c so far you are the only D/V shipper taking part in the discussion, but not exclusively to you; I’d love to hear from anybody who’d like to answer.



If you don’t mind me asking, what is your take on how Daniel and Vala change whenever they interact together? Or maybe they don’t change? Do you think that Daniel seems to be at times bordering on abusive towards her? Or absolutely not? Do you think Vala’s a well developed character? Why/why not?

I’m not attacking you or any D/V shippers and I tried to word my questions as neutrally as possible, if I failed my apologies. I’m just interested in how the other side, so to speak, sees the issues the antis have with this particular ‘ship.



Err…if she wasn’t pinning for anyone onscreen (which I agree with) why would you care what TPTB thought? (and how do you know what they thought anyway?)

But now I have another question. If Sam had been pining for Jack (while always being the one to turn him down, keep their distance, getting herself a boyfriend/fiancé while Jack was waiting for her) wouldn’t it mean that Vala had been pining for Daniel too? After all she always followed him around, was meekly taking all his c***, didn’t even try to find someone else (I loved her with Tomin and thought he was great for her, but sadly I never saw her romantically interested in him) when Daniel wasn’t showing any romantic interest in her. Isn’t it pining?

I apologise if I sound rude, I tend to come across as a jerk sometimes when I’m caught up in discussion. Honestly, the concept of female characters on Stargate pining for male characters has always baffled me and I find it even stranger when strong females who in fact try to move on are the ones accused of pining and females who cling to their men get a free pass. I think it’s fascinating and I’d love to hear what, in your (or anyone else’s) opinion, is the difference between Sam and Vala’s behaviour towards their love interests?



Whoa. I’m the first to admit that *some* shippers went overboard with their hatred towards Pete and did some pretty awful things but come on. Martouf, Orlin, Joe and other Sam's suitors (and their respective actors) didn’t receive such treatment so assuming that Barret/PF would is a bit of a stretch, isn’t it?



That’s an interesting point. I think I agree with the bolded part (except IMO AT/RDA have gallons of chemistry ). Every time I said I didn’t see MS/CB chemistry I was thinking about it in romantic/sexual context; it’s just not there for me. But “antagonistic and comedic”, as you put it? Absolutely. This I can see.

That’s another interesting point. Isn’t it that we – the shippers – tend to be more forgiving of all shortcomings of our OTP because it usually involves our favourite character(s)? Or on the contrary, we tend to be more critical of 'ship involving our favourite character?

I really agree with the bolded. I never noticed any pining between Sam and Jack. I thought that ship was pretty subtle for the most part and it actually never bothered me. I wouldn't have wanted to see Sam/Jack on screen together romantically though while Jack was at the sgc because I don't like the whole boss/subordinate dynamic and relations between teem members. But once he was promoted to Homeworld Security, they really should have just come right out and confirmed it instead of dropping little hints all over.
If there is going to be confirmation of a ship I usually prefer it to come at the end of the series, or at least once one character is no longer part of the main cast and is in the backround.
Even though I'm not a big time shipper; I also find that I'm more critical of ships involving my favorite character(s). Daniel is my favorite SG1 character and I really didn't want to see him with Vala romantically because I didn't like they way the constantly behaved in most of their scenes together. They did make a nice comedy duo sometimes.
John is my favorite SGA character, and I really couldn't picture him with Teyla because to me they just seemed really awkward in their scenes together, and again I don't like the team leader/team member dynamic. And once Teyla had a baby with another man and he came to live in Atlantis. I definately couldn't see them getting together. And I really like Teyla, and the idea of her getting a nice happy little family to go home to.

You never know. Comparing S/J and J/T - yeah, there's a lot of similarities for me. But yeah, there are some differences - you're right about the name thing. The Carter/Sir thing always bugged me with S/J - I personally can't imagine being in a relationship with someone that I called "Sir" most of the time. That's not an issue with John and Teyla. On the other hand, I think Jack and Sam were layered into the show much better than John and Teyla. I had to be told that John and Teyla were supposed to be the canon couple, and that was three seasons in - I didn't pick it up from what was on screen. With Jack and Sam, however, I was picking up hints as early as Broca Divide.

I actually didn't get on board with Sheppard/Weir until Adrift - isn't that ironic? (although even now I'm not sure I consider myself fully on board - more clinging to the side. ) The thing is - and apologies to those of you that have heard this refrain from me before - I just have huge issues with any ship that has power/authority issues. CO/subordinate, boss/employee, teacher/student, mentor/mentee..... I just can't get on board with any relationship with those kind of issues involved. To pull in some examples from outside Stargate, I was uncomfortable with Spock and Uhura in the latest Star Trek movie because of the implication that she had been one of his students. And in Numb3rs, there was Don/Liz (although that show gets points for realizing the issues and dealing with them within the show), and Without a Trace had Jack Malone/Samantha Spade. So this is not just a Stargate issue for me. I know not everyone has this particular hangup, and that's fine. But it is a major issue for me.

With John/Elizabeth - I kinda had the idea from the beginning that J/E was the writers' chosen ship. Turns out I was very wrong about that, but that's what I was seeing. And I did enjoy their chemistry, but I wouldn't have ever been able to get on board with them as a couple while she was still John's boss. So I don't think it's any coincidence that I started being more open to the idea of them together about the time she stopped being his boss. And I think if they'd brought her back in some capacity as a consultant or advisor or diplomat, where she was still in John's life but not in a position of authority over him, I would have been all over that.

Been reading the replies to my questions earlier (thanks btw ), and been thinking about that.

I think the Lois & Clark experience has maybe soured me unfairly on resolving a relationship too fast on a show. I've been thinking about some of the couples on shows that I do like, and how I would imagine a show after they got together.

Farscape - I was fine with the show ending where it did (as long as we're counting PKW). It feels like a complete story to me. OTOH, I could see more story there. Just because John and Aeryn are married with baby doesn't mean the adventures have to stop and that they're just going to settle down and live a boring life on Moya.

And I guess the same goes for Harm & Mac, and Castle & Beckett (although I personally think we're a ways away from that). Chuck put Chuck & Sarah together this last season - we'll see how that works out this next year. Although I confess I do have a few reservations on that one - I like them as a couple, but I don't totally like how the team dynamics have shifted since they got together. So I don't know. Still thinking about it. Thanks for the replies though. I think part of this has to do with what I said a few pages ago - I'm not so interested in UST or RST - it's more the friendship/caring/bonding type stuff that I get into. But....I guess there's no reason that has to go away once a couple gets together. I guess I just tend to OD on the schmoopy love stuff pretty quickly.

I agree with the bolded. Sam and Jack were definately layered better into sg1 than John and Teyla were layered into sga. In fact I never really saw John/Teyla as anything more than friends in the same way that I saw Sam/Daniel as being nothing more than good friends.
I also didn't get onboard with John/Elizabeth until Adrift for basically the same reasons as you. Even though I did see chemistry between the characters, I wouldn't have wanted them together while she was his boss. But after Adrift I saw potential for them to get involved romantically if she came back was like you said an advisor or diplomat working on Atlantis but not in a postion of power over John.
I also liked John/Aeryn in Farscape and Harm/Mac in JAG and how things went about with them.
I also like friendships better than romantic relationships.

[Liv]

You never know. Comparing S/J and J/T - yeah, there's a lot of similarities for me. But yeah, there are some differences - you're right about the name thing. The Carter/Sir thing always bugged me with S/J - I personally can't imagine being in a relationship with someone that I called "Sir" most of the time.

No, I just can't get past that. There's a power imbalance there that makes me very uncomfortable.

That's not an issue with John and Teyla. On the other hand, I think Jack and Sam were layered into the show much better than John and Teyla. I had to be told that John and Teyla were supposed to be the canon couple, and that was three seasons in - I didn't pick it up from what was on screen. With Jack and Sam, however, I was picking up hints as early as Broca Divide.

Heh, see, for me it was kind of the opposite. Well, sort of. I watched SG-1 and was happily content with having a show where the core 4 didn't have any romantic entanglements with each other, whatsoever. I honestly didn't see anything of that kind at all! Which is why D&C was such a chock to me. It was pretty much a jaw dropping-to-the-floor-you-can't-be-serious-moment for me. And then it just got worse, from that point on, because I couldn't "un-see" that particular episode and to me the whole "feelings thing" was just completely out of the blue. With Sheppard/Teyla I actually could see some minor hints that I tried my very best to ignore , and managed pretty well, until Conversion came along. I have some strong, negative feelings, I mean REALLY strong negative feelings towards that kissing scene, that well, let's just put it like this: even if ALL of my other issues regarding John/Teyla had suddenly been magically fixed, I still wouldn't have been able to ship them. Not after that scene in Conversion.

I actually didn't get on board with Sheppard/Weir until Adrift - isn't that ironic?

Very.

(although even now I'm not sure I consider myself fully on board - more clinging to the side. )

Whereas I’ve completely jumped ship.

The thing is - and apologies to those of you that have heard this refrain from me before - I just have huge issues with any ship that has power/authority issues. CO/subordinate, boss/employee, teacher/student, mentor/mentee..... I just can't get on board with any relationship with those kind of issues involved.

With the ships that I DO like (and I do like some ships, even though none of them happen to be on Stargate, and even though I might not actively "ship them") but with the ships that have won me over, the key factor seems to be that the woman is just as strong (sometimes even stronger, and I'm not just talking physical strength here) than the man and that they can have disagreements and fights but they will still have alot of respect for each other and come to a mutual understanding down the road. John/Aeryn and Richard/Kahlan comes to mind. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between. But that's my opinion and others may not see it that way.

[Petra]

No, I just can't get past that. There's a power imbalance there that makes me very uncomfortable.

I'm on this thread to discuss D/V and I'd prefer to avoid another S/J debate. So all I'm going to say is: S/J shippers don't see any power imbalance in S/J relationship. We see them as equals, or even as Sam having more power in their personal relationship than Jack. The whole issue was discussed on this very thread a few pages ago; here's my post about this from a little over a year ago. Second link in my sig leads to the post expanding on it more (under: The military thing and power dynamics). That's it.

And now I'll bow out and wait for some kind D/V shippers to answer my questions.

[VampyreWraith]

I'm on this thread to discuss D/V and I'd prefer to avoid another S/J debate. So all I'm going to say is: S/J shippers don't see any power imbalance in S/J relationship. We see them as equals, or even as Sam having more power in their personal relationship than Jack. The whole issue was discussed on this very thread a few pages ago; here's my post about this from a little over a year ago. Second link in my sig leads to the post expanding on it more (under: The military thing and power dynamics). That's it.

And now I'll bow out and wait for some kind D/V shippers to answer my questions.

Regarding the bolded: On a personal level I also saw them as equals as well, and at times Sam did even seem to have more power. I never saw her as weak when compared to Jack. It was one of the reasons I did like them and didnt mind them. Both characters were strong and very well developed individually; so that if they ever did get together, to me, they wouldn't have come across as an extension of the other(like I wouldn't see Sam as just Jack's lover/gf because she is such a strong character on her own)

[Killdeer]

No, I just can't get past that. There's a power imbalance there that makes me very uncomfortable.

I completely agree. But Petra's right too - she and I have had this discussion before. I get that it's not an issue for S/J shippers, and I can respect that. Everyone sees things differently.

Which is why D&C was such a chock to me. It was pretty much a jaw dropping-to-the-floor-you-can't-be-serious-moment for me.

D&C wasn't out of the blue for me in that S/J was a surprise - there were hints that I saw leading up to that, particularly Sam's reactions in 100 Days. I think the thing with D&C for me (besides the fact that I hate the episode for killing Martouf) was that I wasn't expecting them to bring it out so much in the open - to acknowledge what was going on. I used to listen to the commentaries of the early seasons, and I remember they said something about...yeah, there was something there, but they were never going to go there because of them being in the military and everything (sorry, it's been years - I can't remember the exact quote). But then they did go there. And I didn't see that coming I guess.

With Sheppard/Teyla I actually could see some minor hints that I tried my very best to ignore , and managed pretty well, until Conversion came along. I have some strong, negative feelings, I mean REALLY strong negative feelings towards that kissing scene, that well, let's just put it like this: even if ALL of my other issues regarding John/Teyla had suddenly been magically fixed, I still wouldn't have been able to ship them. Not after that scene in Conversion.

Yeah, the Conversion kiss. I haven't brought it up so far, because I know it's caused some rather passionate discussion on the board. But it is not a comfortable moment for me either. At the time I watched the episode, I wasn't thinking of John and Teyla as a possible couple, and so it didn't bother me in that way though. To me it just seemed to show how increasingly unbalanced John's behavior is getting. I thought it was interesting in Doppelganger that the writers chose to have iratus!John attack Teyla in her nightmare - I'm not sure what kind of message they were trying to send with that, but to me it says that the whole incident (including the kiss) frightened Teyla rather badly.

With the ships that I DO like (and I do like some ships, even though none of them happen to be on Stargate, and even though I might not actively "ship them") but with the ships that have won me over, the key factor seems to be that the woman is just as strong (sometimes even stronger, and I'm not just talking physical strength here) than the man and that they can have disagreements and fights but they will still have alot of respect for each other and come to a mutual understanding down the road. John/Aeryn and Richard/Kahlan comes to mind. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between. But that's my opinion and others may not see it that way.

I like those kinds of ships best too - they're my favorite. My default tends to be to like a ship rather than not (unless I have some reason), but yeah, John/Aeryn were definitely a great ship.

I also liked John/Aeryn in Farscape and Harm/Mac in JAG and how things went about with them.

Agreed. I know a lot of people got frustrated with the Harm/Mac thing, but I had the advantage in that I got to watch the series via DVD over 4-5 years rather than the 10 everyone else had to suffer through. And I already knew the ending. So that probably helped quite a bit.

[Southern Red]

Yeah, the Conversion kiss. I haven't brought it up so far, because I know it's caused some rather passionate discussion on the board. But it is not a comfortable moment for me either. At the time I watched the episode, I wasn't thinking of John and Teyla as a possible couple, and so it didn't bother me in that way though. To me it just seemed to show how increasingly unbalanced John's behavior is getting. I thought it was interesting in Doppelganger that the writers chose to have iratus!John attack Teyla in her nightmare - I'm not sure what kind of message they were trying to send with that, but to me it says that the whole incident (including the kiss) frightened Teyla rather badly.

That kiss does seems to polarize posters, doesn't it? But you make several very good points. It was a very uncomfortable moment for everyone, especially Teyla. If I hadn't been privy to all the hype beforehand including that obviously meant to titillate TV Guide cover, I would have thought it was done to shock us and show just how far gone John was. No one who had been watching the show from the beginning could have possibly thought John Sheppard would be so disrespectful to a woman. So in that respect it shocked and alerted us to just how bad things were going to get. It showed us that the infection was affecting John on a primal level and somehow bringing out a beast in him. That was effectively done.

It was also obvious that Teyla was scared witless by the unexpectedness of the act and never would have thought John would behave so. She seemed to be offended deeply and wanted nothing so much as to get away from him. If you watch it in slo mo, you see her hands go up and how she not only attempts to push him away but cringes back from him. She can barely talk she is so startled and emotionally upset. And, as you say, it stayed with her for a long time and she even has a nightmare about it and seems offended all over again that Ronon would suggest that they are "hooking up". It is rather puzzling that in spite of all that evidence to the contrary the writers kept saying they intended to maybe at some point in the future make these two a couple. I don't see how they expected anyone to accept that after this incident. Even when he came to her all embarrassed and apologized, she was still so leery of him she seemed very eager to escape his presence.

And notice that they were never seen sparring again. If the stick fighting scenes were supposed to show UST, then why stop them with this image in people's minds? It looked very much like they closed the door on this ship right here. And as I've said many times, it's like Gero didn't get the memo and he kept trying to sneak it back in but the general viewers didn't buy it.

All just my way of evaluating it of course. I understand that some disagree.

[VampyreWraith]

That kiss does seems to polarize posters, doesn't it? But you make several very good points. It was a very uncomfortable moment for everyone, especially Teyla. If I hadn't been privy to all the hype beforehand including that obviously meant to titillate TV Guide cover, I would have thought it was done to shock us and show just how far gone John was. No one who had been watching the show from the beginning could have possibly thought John Sheppard would be so disrespectful to a woman. So in that respect it shocked and alerted us to just how bad things were going to get. It showed us that the infection was affecting John on a primal level and somehow bringing out a beast in him. That was effectively done.

It was also obvious that Teyla was scared witless by the unexpectedness of the act and never would have thought John would behave so. She seemed to be offended deeply and wanted nothing so much as to get away from him. If you watch it in slo mo, you see her hands go up and how she not only attempts to push him away but cringes back from him. She can barely talk she is so startled and emotionally upset. And, as you say, it stayed with her for a long time and she even has a nightmare about it and seems offended all over again that Ronon would suggest that they are "hooking up". It is rather puzzling that in spite of all that evidence to the contrary the writers kept saying they intended to maybe at some point in the future make these two a couple. I don't see how they expected anyone to accept that after this incident. Even when he came to her all embarrassed and apologized, she was still so leery of him she seemed very eager to escape his presence.

And notice that they were never seen sparring again. If the stick fighting scenes were supposed to show UST, then why stop them with this image in people's minds? It looked very much like they closed the door on this ship right here. And as I've said many times, it's like Gero didn't get the memo and he kept trying to sneak it back in but the general viewers didn't buy it.

All just my way of evaluating it of course. I understand that some disagree.

Regarding the Conversion kiss, this is from the SGA Official Companion p53. I was going to post this elsewhere but i just found my book so i'll post it here instead.
This is coming from Martin Gero, who wrote the ep.
They first talked about John's attack on Weir then: "Yeah, that was very dark", agrees Gero. "It's funny people always say that that's a dark scene, but I think the kiss is really uncomfortable. I was the most uncomfortable about the kiss because it's violent. I really thought we had gone to far when we were cutting it together --- because it's our good guy esentially forcing himself on one of our main female characters. And I think that because they have such a strong relationship, people didn't feel it ---but that was an uncomfortable scene to watch."

So, its supposed to be violent, John is supposed to be forcing himself on Teyla because he's mutating. That's how I saw it. Anything else is a matter of personal perception and opinion.

Add: just to clarify; when I say anything else is a matter of opinion, I'm not trying to be dismissive or anything. All I am saying is that the intent behind the scene was to show John's violent digression into a Bug Creature.
What they may or may not have felt after the fact depends on how you see the characters and their relationship and is therefore a matter of opinion.

[Killdeer]

Wow - thank you for finding that quote! That's exactly how I saw it too - that John is forcing himself on Teyla. It IS an uncomfortable scene - not romantic at all IMO.

I don't have any of the companion books, so that is much appreciated.

[Southern Red]

Regarding the Conversion kiss, this is from the SGA Official Companion p53. I was going to post this elsewhere but i just found my book so i'll post it here instead.
This is coming from Martin Gero, who wrote the ep.
They first talked about John's attack on Weir then: "Yeah, that was very dark", agrees Gero. "It's funny people always say that that's a dark scene, but I think the kiss is really uncomfortable. I was the most uncomfortable about the kiss because it's violent. I really thought we had gone to far when we were cutting it together --- because it's our good guy esentially forcing himself on one of our main female characters. And I think that because they have such a strong relationship, people didn't feel it ---but that was an uncomfortable scene to watch."

So, its supposed to be violent, John is supposed to be forcing himself on Teyla because he's mutating. That's how I saw it. Anything else is a matter of personal perception and opinion.

Add: just to clarify; when I say anything else is a matter of opinion, I'm not trying to be dismissive or anything. All I am saying is that the intent behind the scene was to show John's violent digression into a Bug Creature.
What they may or may not have felt after the fact depends on how you see the characters and their relationship and is therefore a matter of opinion.

Thanks for looking that up. I have that book and didn't even think to look at it. LOL

Well, that's interesting that Gero felt that way. He didn't make that clear in the commentaries when all 3 of the guys, MG, JF and DH were snickering and teasing Joe about eating garlic sandwiches and so on. Pffft! Guys. Anyway, at the time Joe said something about being surprised at the editing and I wasn't sure what he meant. Now I'm thinking he meant he was surprised it was so violent and expected more of a real kiss not an attack. Just my interpretation of course but makes sense.

And another message to MG just from me. Dear, some of us at the time were unaware of how strong their relationship was because you did a poor job of showing it, so no we weren't comfortable with the scene. And yes, some of us saw it as an assault on a trusted teammate. Once again TPTB were surprised that the fans didn't see things as they do.

And as for the "dark scene" with Weir. Because I felt those two characters could get through anything together and she trusted him not to hurt her and saw the John inside the monster and wasn't going to give up on him, I did not see that act as being as dark and uncomfortable as the kiss. I saw that as the beast trying to get his way and the man stopping him from hurting a friend. Because as far gone as he was there he could have snapped her neck with little effort. But that again is my interpretation.

[Killdeer]

I have to admit - I feel a tiny bit better about TPTB after reading that. Since I found out that J/T was supposed to be the canon couple, I have been completely bewildered as to why they would have shot the kiss and the closing scene in the way they did, because both scenes are uncomfortable (to me). And I've never been able to understand why they would handle it that way if the scenes were supposed to be indicative of the couple's feelings for each other. Personally, being shoved against the wall and forcibly kissed is not something I would find romantic - I would be quite upset.

Finding out that they DID intend for that to be a dark moment - that they did intend for John to force the kiss on Teyla - makes everything make sense, even the Doppelganger scene. And Teyla's discomfort in the final scene fits perfectly into that scenario. It's a little bit of a relief to find out that I was not on such a different page after all.

[Southern Red]

I have to admit - I feel a tiny bit better about TPTB after reading that. Since I found out that J/T was supposed to be the canon couple, I have been completely bewildered as to why they would have shot the kiss and the closing scene in the way they did, because both scenes are uncomfortable (to me). And I've never been able to understand why they would handle it that way if the scenes were supposed to be indicative of the couple's feelings for each other. Personally, being shoved against the wall and forcibly kissed is not something I would find romantic - I would be quite upset.

Finding out that they DID intend for that to be a dark moment - that they did intend for John to force the kiss on Teyla - makes everything make sense, even the Doppelganger scene. And Teyla's discomfort in the final scene fits perfectly into that scenario. It's a little bit of a relief to find out that I was not on such a different page after all.

ITA. It sounds like we interpreted that scene just like they intended for us to. Not to say that if you wanted to see romance and did you are wrong. Because that's what shippers do. *raises hand*

[Killdeer]

While I'm not discounting lust as a factor in John's actions, I think this scene was primarily about power, about dominating Teyla. I mean, first they have him completely wipe the floor with her in their sparring match, and then to finish it off, he pins her helpless against the wall and forces the kiss on her, essentially saying to her "you are powerless. I can do what I want to you, and you can't do anything about it." It IS a dark violent moment, and yes, it's a relief to know that MG saw that and acknowledged it. The scene did what it was meant to do apparently, at least with this viewer - it's uncomfortable and it's meant to show us that something is definitely WRONG with Sheppard.

[Southern Red]

I have really been enjoying the calm discussion on this thread and wish that sort of thing could be common among all kinds of shippers. In that vein I have a general question for all shippers and friendly non-shippers.

Do you ever expect to change another person's mind? In other words when you post something pro your ship or anti another ship are you doing it in hopes of making the other person "see the light" and come over to your way of thinking? Or do you just want to get your opinion out there and hopefully better understand the other person's views?