General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Lahela]

1) i dont think a show needs a romance at all in fact sometimes it ruins a show like lost for instance.

2)i find i get annoyed if it goes around in circles like jack/kate/sawyer/juliet.

3) i would have to say on-again/off-again romances bother me.

4) in SG1 i thought they did a good job as i rooted for sam/jack and daniel/vala but SGA and SGU have done a terrible job. for instance mckeller and scott/chloe.

I don't mind Sam/Jack at all because we knew that with their positions in the military it could never amount to anything and therefore never become a focus of the show. It's funny, because although I never shipped them, I was annoyed with Freya for coming onto Jack in Divide & Conquer! LOL! Daniel/Vala I honestly never saw as particularly shippy Chloe/Scott I don't mind so much because it's quite natural IMO, a real relationship. Keller/McKay/Ronon, on the other hand... that ruined SGA for me. It felt juvenile in the way it was done.

[chrono trigger]

I don't mind Sam/Jack at all because we knew that with their positions in the military it could never amount to anything and therefore never become a focus of the show. It's funny, because although I never shipped them, I was annoyed with Freya for coming onto Jack in Divide & Conquer! LOL! Daniel/Vala I honestly never saw as particularly shippy Chloe/Scott I don't mind so much because it's quite natural IMO, a real relationship. Keller/McKay/Ronon, on the other hand... that ruined SGA for me. It felt juvenile in the way it was done.

it did damage the last season of SGA in my opinion aswell. the only ship i liked on SGA was john/teyla.

[Melora]

I don't mind Sam/Jack at all because we knew that with their positions in the military it could never amount to anything and therefore never become a focus of the show. It's funny, because although I never shipped them, I was annoyed with Freya for coming onto Jack in Divide & Conquer! LOL! Daniel/Vala I honestly never saw as particularly shippy Chloe/Scott I don't mind so much because it's quite natural IMO, a real relationship. Keller/McKay/Ronon, on the other hand... that ruined SGA for me. It felt juvenile in the way it was done.

I liked the way Keller/McKay was handled in 'Trio.' It was very subtle and cute. I even liked how the relationship progressed in 'The Shrine,' but I think it was almost too soon to have McKay declaring his love for her. The love triangle with Ronon didn't work for me at all. As I said above, I hate love triangles b/c they rarely are well-written and this was no exception. So while I am glad that the McKeller shippers got some resolution, I do think the writers rushed the relationship in the last half of Season 5 and focused a little too much on it.

In terms of the other SGA characters - I liked the interactions between all the male and female characters on SGA, but I didn't see any of those relationships going anywhere romantic. Perhaps I could have seen Sheppard/Weir, Sheppard/Teyla, Ronon/Teyla, or even McKay/Sheppard if the writers had ever provided more hints about their deeper feelings for each other. I'm pretty much a canon shipper, so I find it difficult to really imagine romantic relationships developing with so little to go on. As someone who likes a little romance in the show she watches, I think a little more exploration of the relationships on SGA and the feelings (both romantic and platonic) between the characters in the earlier seasons might have added a nice layer to the show.

Having said that, I quite enjoyed SGA so I guess I don't necessarily need to have romance to like a show.

[-Plot::Twist-]

This thread is for the discussion of ship on Stargate SG-1 in general.

What are the pros and cons of inserting romance into a sci-fi show?
What's your favorite pairing other/beside Jack and Sam?
What do you think of ship in a ship? ;-)

1: Pros: Adds a human element to the show, makes it believable and touching,
Cons: Most shows include sex...Though Star Trek managed to have romance without it.

2: I'm not really a fan of the whole Jack/Sam stuff. But if its all stargate, I'd say McKay/Keller. Only SG-1? Daniel/Share

3: meh...

[Flowerbud]

Atlantis4Life writes:
One could come up with a myriad of reasons as to why Sheppard didn't "officially" end up with anyone else either, including Elizabeth. At the end, he was alone. This can be interpreted in one way or another, depending on the individual.

My reply:
But Shep/Elizabeth was never meant to be the official ship of the show. J/T was presented as such at the beginning and they pretty much dropped it and in a very determined way. Rachel's pregnancy wouldn't have stopped TPTB if they wanted to develop J/T. They're so many scenarios to get around that.


My previous reply:
It's very difficult to reopen the ship without making Sheppard and Teyla into cheaters.
Atlantis4Life's response:
Oh, anything can happen. Perhaps Kanaan and Teyla break up, or Kanaan has a tragic accident...

My response:
But that would change Stargate from a science fiction show into a soap. No one wants to see the Grey's Anatomy in Space show, at least I wouldn't. Keep ship in the background. TPTB went to all the trouble of creating another character, casting that role and paying the actor his fee to end J/T and then the next season, kill him off or have Teyla and Kanaan have some cringe-inducing breakup scenes. It becomes a soap. JMO.

I will be in and out of the house today and reply as soon as I can.

[Killdeer]

Continuing conversation from the Was anyone else disappointed John and Teyla (spoilers) thread.

I believe that, in "The Long Goodbye", Phoebus hints at how Teyla feels/knows much about John.

What Phebus actually says is (taken from the transcript): "I'm not surprised that you're the only one that managed to get to him." So it's a matter of interpretation. It could be what you say, but it also could be a simple acknowledgment of Teyla's skills. And dealing with The Long Goodbye in more detail......The problem with taking anything that Phebus or Thalen say at face value is that neither are reliable sources. For example, at one point Phebus tells Caldwell that Elizabeth thinks he's hopeless. Are we to assume that's true? I personally don't think so. And of course, Thalen tells Teyla that "he [John] cares for you more than you know." Again, true? Or simply Thalen's desperate attempt to manipulate Teyla's feelings so she won't kill him? A person could easily argue the point either way. Thalen does have full access to John's thoughts and feelings, but he's not in the least reliable as a source.

Again, it's all a matter of interpretation and perspective. And frankly, if the writers were trying to hint at something deeper between John and Teyla in the episode, why not follow up on it? A closing scene between the two of them might have highlighted the point and shed some clarity on the issue. Instead, the closing scene we got was Caldwell teasing John and Elizabeth about their kiss (highlighting that for the audience instead of the John/Teyla moment, which quite honestly I missed the first time I viewed the episode - I had to go back and rewatch once it was pointed out to me). The John/Thalen/Teyla moment is never mentioned again. So if the writers were trying to hint at something here, I think it's a case of writer-fail.

[Atlantis4Life]

Sorry, Flowerbud

I just noticed you posted your reply here too. So, I'm pasting my reply to yours. Here goes:

Atlantis4Life, my network was cutting in and out. Sorry, my post became somewhat garbled as I was trying to reconstruct it and repost it.

As I understand it, the different shipper groups keep to themselves in their threads and this thread appeared to be open to all people. Certainly, after the show had been canceled for more than a year and no movie in sight, things would have calmed down enough to be able to discuss the different opinions about a ship, but perhaps it is still too soon. I do not like it when people bash Elizabeth and/or Torri, especially about her appearance. I've seen it frequently done in support of J/T sadly. I definitely don't bash Teyla to support J/E.

Oh, I can understand about computers. Stuff always happens with them.

Yes, this thread is open to all people from what I can tell. I don't know, perhaps it is too soon for some people - even if they're just reading along... Thanks for not bashing Teyla/Rachel to make a point about Elizabeth/Torri. I've seen that happen too, sadly.

Re: subject of this thread. FWIW, if you don't mind, I enjoy debating and will give you my response.
What it comes down to IMO is that, TPTB will say a lot of things, but in the final analysis, what happens on screen is ultimately what counts. This isn't about Elizabeth or or the fact that Shep is not officially paired up with anyone by the end of the series.

Rather, what I find astounding is that TPTB ended the J/T in such a decisive manner. I thought for certain they would pursue the J/T ship, all systems go, in season 4. And why not? Although it was not my favorite ship, they did say it was the ship they were going to do at the beginning of the series. I think Rachel's pregnancy was just an excuse not to do it. This is science fiction and TPTB had a lot of options. I can understand why they don't want Shep to become the baby daddy because it causes all sorts of problems and would change the tone of the show. We would have to hear about Shep taking paternity leave and suffering sleep deprivation because of a crying baby. Babies throw a wrench into almost any show unless the writers are extremely skilled and the show is a domestic/soap opera drama. They show pregnancies or a birth of child at the end of series in most types of television shows.

This is a lot to tackle, but I'll try to keep my response relatively short. I enjoy having a pleasant discussion as well. The topic of the thread (imo) does lend itself to discussions that are related and partially on-point, but not entirely on the point. So, in these instances, I don't see these discussions as completely off topic.

I wholeheartedly agree that this isn't about Elizabeth. Thank you for saying that. However, it is about the fact that John is alone at the end of the series because that has something to do with people either being disappointed or not about him not getting with Teyla by the end of the show, and that's the question of the thread.

As far as problems with Shep being the father goes, I personally don't prefer kids in these types of shows, but I also think that with good writing that it could have worked. There are lots of shows (detective shows, cop shows, other Sci-Fi shows, etc.) where the main focus of the show is not family, and so the children of the main characters are rarely featured. Torren wasn't in a bunch of episodes in Season 5, and when he was, I didn't see him as the main focus. Not to be rude, but if there were any soap opera elements to season 5, then it was McKeller - and they don't have any children (thank goodness!! ).

For me, Shep and Teyla's personalities and backgrounds don't really lend themselves over to a soap opera style of writing. They'd have to have personality transplants (imo) in order for their pairing to become like a soap - however, it wouldn't be the first time a personality change happened in SG with beloved classic characters... I'll stop before I say too much...

It may sound crazy, but something happened. I know different writers liked different ships. Gero certainly was fond of J/T, but he was overruled completely shortly into season 4. Why did TPTB do a 180 degree turnaround? Maybe one day after SGU is over, TPTB will write a tell-all. I am curious if you have any speculations on this matter.

Rob Cooper seemed to like them, and he was one of the creators and executive producers of the show. You can tell by most of the episodes that he wrote. And I'll give credit where I think it's due - He did a great job with the writing that he did for them. It was never over the top.

I don't think that Martin Gero was "overruled completely" shortly into season 4 or he wouldn't have been allowed to write that dream sequence in season 5 where Shep imagines himself with Teyla... I didn't see a 180 degree turnaround, but again, perceptions...

I'd love to read an SG tell-all book, but I doubt that this is going to happen because that's not how things typically work in that industry.

Re: dating after a breakup with someone else.
LOL! No, I am totally not saying that is cheating. The plot machinations the writers would have to create to get rid of Kanaan and put Shep and Teyla together would change the focus of the show to a more of a soap opera plot. Generally, IMO, ship works well as a side story, but it still has to be slowly and meticulously constructed. They would have to write some really emo dialog and the story would take up a lot of time, otherwise, Shep and Teyla come off looking very superficial and tawdry. As a previous poster wrote, they would be doing the deed on top of Kanaan's dead body. I know we disagree about definitiveness of the end of J/T, but that's what makes the world interesting.

Thanks for the clarification because it did seem like you were saying something different.

First, about the bolded text, I think that previous poster was joking. And second, he was talking about fanfic writers, not the writers/producers for the actual show. As much as I've had my critiques about some of the official SG writing, I do give the writers credit for never coming up with a story line where John and Teyla "do the deed" on Kanaan's dead body. I hope you'll give them that same credit too.

On the rest, as I said before, it's a matter of perception and in how it's done. I don't think it is inevitable that a JT pairing would be akin to a soap opera. Again, I don't think their personalities fit that seeing as they are not "dramatic" people. If the writing is good, then a JT pairing can be done very well.

Ultimately, all of this doesn't matter because both of our ships have terrific fanfiction writers to make up for the disappointment and the fun of hanging out with our fellow ship enthusiasts.

I agree.


P.S.
If I answer again in the future, I might do it in the ship thread (if necessary) and provide a link there. However, this discussion has been nice and mostly relevant here.

[expendable_crewman]

Wish I'd seen this thread sooner.

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?
For me, stories that pattern some form of RL human behavior, even when set in fantastic settings, capture interest better than those that do not.

I don't watch shows with casts unrealistically frozen at a certain age and unrealistically focused on who's doing it with whom and how many times, until the premise, plot, whatever is drowned under surreal romantic or sexual angst.

I stopped watching NICS because the UST was too strong to believe the characters would not resolve it one way or another, as they appeared to me to be adults, unless I factored in out-of-universe forces, which will, I suspect, dangle the point until the last episode of the last season. Been there, done that.

TV shows that work it in as a natural element of the story usually have other positives going for them. Those that start/stop, backtrack, behave as though they don't know what they want or where they are going in the romance category typically have issues in other categories.


2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

A healthy man or woman solves crimes (or flies space ships) for an hour once a week, at about week four or five I'm going to begin to notice the character goes home alone, wakes up alone, and wonder why. If I care at all about this character, I want to know the deal. If the show can't be bothered to flesh out the character, don't expect me to hang around.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like.

I don't care about main character relationships as long as there is respect, or a good reason (as in, the character's flaws are essential to the story) for the hurt. I am easily turned off by bullies and power plays in unequal relationships and will probably give up soon on Rookie Blue. Unexpected relationships between main cast members, something that blossoms out of thin air, when written well, shine for me! Easy relationships between main characters light my TV hour, too. Fiona and Michael are a good example of this. I don't see wedding bells happening anytime soon but I know their *thing* is running in the background. If she hit positive on an ept, he's not going to ask, "Who's the father?" and he's not going to run away. Their *thing* doesn't get in the way of the story and there are episodes when you don't see a single sign that their relationship exists. It's easy for me, complicated for them, but just barely.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?
LOL

[Flowerbud]

Continuing conversation from the Was anyone else disappointed John and Teyla (spoilers) thread.


What Phebus actually says is (taken from the transcript): "I'm not surprised that you're the only one that managed to get to him." So it's a matter of interpretation. It could be what you say, but it also could be a simple acknowledgment of Teyla's skills. And dealing with The Long Goodbye in more detail......The problem with taking anything that Phebus or Thalen say at face value is that neither are reliable sources. For example, at one point Phebus tells Caldwell that Elizabeth thinks he's hopeless. Are we to assume that's true? I personally don't think so. And of course, Thalen tells Teyla that "he [John] cares for you more than you know." Again, true? Or simply Thalen's desperate attempt to manipulate Teyla's feelings so she won't kill him? A person could easily argue the point either way. Thalen does have full access to John's thoughts and feelings, but he's not in the least reliable as a source.

Again, it's all a matter of interpretation and perspective. And frankly, if the writers were trying to hint at something deeper between John and Teyla in the episode, why not follow up on it? A closing scene between the two of them might have highlighted the point and shed some clarity on the issue. Instead, the closing scene we got was Caldwell teasing John and Elizabeth about their kiss (highlighting that for the audience instead of the John/Teyla moment, which quite honestly I missed the first time I viewed the episode - I had to go back and rewatch once it was pointed out to me). The John/Thalen/Teyla moment is never mentioned again. So if the writers were trying to hint at something here, I think it's a case of writer-fail.

I always thought the most pertinent ship factor in that episode is that the one person to volunteer to be Thalan, the alien that is/was married to Phoebus who currently controls Elizabeth's body is John. Why him? He is a high ranking person whose skills are very valuable to the survival of Atlantis. Why not have a red shirt soldier volunteer. Maybe John couldn't the bear the thought of anyone else kissing Elizabeth and/or he feels an overwhelming need to protect her.

This tit for tat game can go on forever for both rival ships. Probably in terms of sheer number of shippy moments, McShep had the most, but no Sheppard -McKay kiss, at least in the Stargate universe.

[Flowerbud]

As far as problems with Shep being the father goes, I personally don't prefer kids in these types of shows, but I also think that with good writing that it could have worked. There are lots of shows (detective shows, cop shows, other Sci-Fi shows, etc.) where the main focus of the show is not family, and so the children of the main characters are rarely featured. Torren wasn't in a bunch of episodes in Season 5, and when he was, I didn't see him as the main focus. Not to be rude, but if there were any soap opera elements to season 5, then it was McKeller - and they don't have any children (thank goodness!! ).

For me, Shep and Teyla's personalities and backgrounds don't really lend themselves over to a soap opera style of writing. They'd have to have personality transplants (imo) in order for their pairing to become like a soap - however, it wouldn't be the first time a personality change happened in SG with beloved classic characters... I'll stop before I say too much...

But that's just the point. Shep will have to live with the fact that in order to get Teyla, he had to rip apart the family she built and the child Torren won't be in an intact nuclear family. He's not the sort of man to do that because he has too much integrity. It will look very selfish and as the military expedition leader, how can he command the respect of his men when he violates the the military code of conduct by getting involved with a married woman.

Or lets say Kanaan is accidently killed, it would diminish Sheppard as a man of honor who moves in on a grieving woman who also happens to be a subordinate on his team. He would be diminished before the eyes of the soldiers he leads and also cause a lot of suspicion and jealousy that Teyla would be getting special treatment because she is his paramour.

If one is determined and bound to go ahead with these scenarios, it would be impossible not to write emo/soap-opera style drama. The way TPTB ended the J/T ship pretty much made any type of resurrection of the ship extremely difficult. It would change the tone of SGA and most its fans aren't interested in tortured relationship dramas.

First, about the bolded text, I think that previous poster was joking. And second, he was talking about fanfic writers, not the writers/producers for the actual show. As much as I've had my critiques about some of the official SG writing, I do give the writers credit for never coming up with a story line where John and Teyla "do the deed" on Kanaan's dead body. I hope you'll give them that same credit too.

On the rest, as I said before, it's a matter of perception and in how it's done. I don't think it is inevitable that a JT pairing would be akin to a soap opera. Again, I don't think their personalities fit that seeing as they are not "dramatic" people. If the writing is good, then a JT pairing can be done very well.

The phrase "doing the deed on Kanaan's dead body" is metaphorical, but the TPTB writers would be very aware of this issue. Writing J/T wouldn't be a straightforward romance. All the issues to reset the ship would take a great deal of screen time - teyla's grief, John's ambivalence, the moral gray area of playing a significant role in breaking up a marriage if Kanaan doesn't die, stepchild-stepfather issues, can teyla stay on the team in light of the fact she may have a romantic relationship with her superior officer on the team which is bound to affect how John is viewed by his soldiers and thereby affecting his authority. This no longer becomes a sci-fi action-adventure show. Most GW viewers loathed McKeller and it was essentially about 2 single, fancy-free people with no military regulations separating them, who are both earthlings, from Canada/USA, and for whom English is their native language.

[expendable_crewman]

The phrase "doing the deed on Kanaan's dead body" is metaphorical, but the TPTB writers would be very aware of this issue. Writing J/T wouldn't be a straightforward romance. All the issues to reset the ship would take a great deal of screen time - teyla's grief, John's ambivalence, the moral gray area of playing a significant role in breaking up a marriage if Kanaan doesn't die, stepchild-stepfather issues, can teyla stay on the team in light of the fact she may have a romantic relationship with her superior officer on the team which is bound to affect how John is viewed by his soldiers and thereby affecting his authority. This no longer becomes a sci-fi action-adventure show. Most GW viewers loathed McKeller and it was essentially about 2 single, fancy-free people with no military regulations separating them, who are both earthlings, from Canada/USA, and for whom English is their native language.

I agree with you. Teyla has been written into a box. Whether Sheppard joins her there matters less to me than does she get out. If anyone is, Teyla is / was my favorite SGA character. I see a scene like the opener in S&R and I want to knock my head against the wall. What purpose, from a storytelling standpoint, does an intimate setting with two people, candles, and wine say? Does it matter if one person is pregnant with another man's child? The scene was a panel in John's subconscious. There is either a purpose to the setting or there is not, and we, the viewers, are required to choose.

If a scene is set in space and there are warships firing, we should be safe inferring a battle is taking place. If people are gathered around a table talking, and they are in the conference room, we should be okay believing there is a meeting in progress. If two people are sitting alone and the only background discernible is comprised of candles, I should be safe assuming intimacy.

If there is purpose in the S&R opening scene's setting, what a mess. Why does Sheppard dream Teyla talking about cherishing the moments "when it is just you and me?" Maybe she's drinking cranberry juice, or in his dream he's forgotten pregnant women don't consume alcohol, or maybe he's created the fantasy that she isn't pregnant. Sheppard may not be aware that pregnant women are advised not to drink but the writer who created the scene is more than likely aware, and, as we know, so was the actress who played Teyla.

So I hate the box as much as you do. It's hard to imagine, following the opening scene of season 5, that a door closed, jarringly or otherwise, on whatever was budding between Teyla and Sheppard from a writing standpoint. It's just an awful place for a character to be in, no matter what direction (if any) the Teyla character takes.

[Atlantis4Life]

But that's just the point. Shep will have to live with the fact that in order to get Teyla, he had to rip apart the family she built and the child Torren won't be in an intact nuclear family. He's not the sort of man to do that because he has too much integrity. It will look very selfish and as the military expedition leader, how can he command the respect of his men when he violates the military code of conduct by getting involved with a married woman.

Or lets say Kanaan is accidentally killed; it would diminish Sheppard as a man of honor who moves in on a grieving woman who also happens to be a subordinate on his team. He would be diminished before the eyes of the soldiers he leads and also cause a lot of suspicion and jealousy that Teyla would be getting special treatment because she is his paramour.

Hey, Flowerbud.

I haven't been here for awhile, so I have not had a chance to see this post until now. I hope you don't mind my late response. Here goes:

I don't think that Teyla deciding to leave Kanaan (if that's ever what she officially decides to do canon-wise) has anything to do with Sheppard. It would be about her own happiness, and how that happiness would be good for her child as well.

You seem to be implying that she may have no choice or say in the matter, and that it is between the men. Either Kanaan's keeping Teyla, or Shep is "tearing" her away from him. I do not see it this way. I don't think that most people would, but that's just my opinion. She is not a thing; she is a fully capable person. I think that Teyla Emmagan is a strong lady character that can make decisions for herself and by herself. I hope that you will give her that credit too.

As for getting involved with a "married" woman, I doubt that Shep ever would. So, again, Teyla would have to choose to leave Kanaan first. If this were to happen, and Shep decided to start a relationship with a single mother, then I don't see how anyone would lose respect for either of them in that case, especially when mutual friends like Ronon always felt that something romantic between them would eventually happen.

In the event that Kanaan died, I would think that Shep wouldn't be making advances towards Teyla at the funeral... So again, it's all in how it is done. If the writing remains true to both characters, then eventually after Kanaan's death, John and Teyla would become closer and slowly become something more to each other than friends. As I've said before, just because someone loses a spouse doesn't mean that they are not allowed to live again by building a life with someone else in due time. Most deceased spouses would want their living loved-one to find happiness again. That's love, and that's what love is all about. As for Shep being with his subordinate, well, I don't quite think of Teyla that way. She's not in the military. Yes, she accompanies the team as a part of the group, but she does not have to answer to Shep if she does not want to. She is there of her own free will. Also, considering that Atlantis is back on Earth now, we don't know what Shep and Teyla will decide about their futures. I still think Shep belongs in Pegasus, as well as the rest of the team. The last time they were sent back home (The Return), they literally stole a jumper to go on an unauthorized mission because they couldn't stay away from the galaxy/colleagues that needed them... We'll see what happens if the movie is made. But again, I'm not holding my breath for it.

If one is determined and bound to go ahead with these scenarios, it would be impossible not to write emo/soap-opera style drama. The way TPTB ended the J/T ship pretty much made any type of resurrection of the ship extremely difficult. It would change the tone of SGA and most its fans aren't interested in tortured relationship dramas.

First, why would it have to be a "tortured relationship?" LOL. I really don't think that this has to be the case. Shep and Teyla are so compatible (imo) that this realistically wouldn't be the case. Many fans felt like the "torture" was in not seeing Shep and Teyla get together by the end of the show.

I don't know how you can say that it would be "impossible" to write a John/Teyla union in a way that suits the characters personalities and the style of the show. Again, great writing can realistically achieve any end. The issue in my book is not that it "can't" be done well, but the fact that it can be done well if the right amount of talent, effort, and thought goes into this particular pairing.

I very much so disagree with your assertion that a John/Teyla pairing would change the tone of the show. That's like saying that the fact that Spock and Uhura were together in the last Star Trek movie totally made it a soap. We all know that this isn't the case. A love story can take place in a Science Fiction/Action/Adventure movie, and often times it does. I think that a well done John and Teyla romantic relationship would enhance what an SGA movie could bring to its audience, not diminish it.

The phrase "doing the deed on Kanaan's dead body" is metaphorical, but the TOT writers would be very aware of this issue. Writing JET wouldn't be a straightforward romance. All the issues to reset the ship would take a great deal of screen time - teyla's grief, John's ambivalence, the moral gray area of playing a significant role in breaking up a marriage if Kanaan doesn't die, stepchild-stepfather issues, can teyla stay on the team in light of the fact she may have a romantic relationship with her superior officer on the team which is bound to affect how John is viewed by his soldiers and thereby affecting his authority. This no longer becomes a sci-fi action-adventure show. Most GW viewers loathed McKeller and it was essentially about 2 single, fancy-free people with no military regulations separating them, who are both earthlings, from Canada/USA, and for whom English is their native language.

Yes, you can take "doing the deed on Kanaan's dead body" metaphorically too, although I'm not sure that's how it was meant. To write the entire romance would take a long time if they were to delve into it deeply, but that doesn't have to be the case. All they have to do is to show the beginning of the relationship starting at the end of the movie, and the rest or majority of the movie could provide the time/space necessary in-between the break-up with/death of Kanaan.

If the writers were to follow a real-life timeline at this moment, then a year and a half has passed since the events at EATG. If Kanaan died shortly afterwards somehow, or if Teyla broke up with him shortly afterwards, then an entire year or more is enough time for Shep and Teyla to realistically move into the beginnings of a relationship. There's no limit to the amount of time that a movie can cover. I've watched movies that covered a person's entire life from beginning to end (with no soap opera moments), so it's possible to pair John/Teyla and it happen very realistically and naturally with no "soap" elements. All the writer(s) have to do is to be willing to go there.

As far as Torren John Emmagan is concerned, he's was an infant at the end of EATG, and still a toddler now if the movie is to cover elapsed time (I think JM said on his blog that it would, but who knows?...), so there won't really be any "step-child/stepfather issues" to deal with. I think John already sees himself as somewhat of a protector to the child when I think of what he told Teyla in Quarantine about her son having a "family" on Atlantis if anything were to happen to her/Kanaan. So again, Shep stepping up to help out (if Kanaan died), and then eventually becoming Kanaan's substitute as a father to Torren would just be natural. I would think that he'd play some kind of a role in the child's life regardless because he and Teyla are that close. Afterall, it was Shep that used the word "family" to describe what he and the other team members would be to the child...

As to the rest of your post, I think I touched on my answers to those questions already, but I'll expound a bit more. I personally couldn't stand McKeller for a few reasons. The main reason was that I didn't see them as compatible. Whereas Katie Brown was a good offset to McKay's loveable but annoying qualities (imo), and Ronon provided a kind of strength that Keller seemed to need, the McKay/Keller pairing was one in which both characters enhanced each other's already annoying characteristics. This is not the case for Shep/Teyla because they don't really have annoying characteristics to enhance. Both of them have things in common but, these are things that would provide a kind of synergy for the pair that would be a good thing. All the writing has to do is to reflect that.

Anyhoo, I'm not expecting that the movie have any JT moments/storyline anyway because of its author. So, there's no need for me to go into this any further than I have. LOL It's all wishful thinking anyway. Thank goodness for fan fiction. I've got a buddy writing a JT fanfic that I can't wait to read now...


Cheers.

[Killdeer]

I think a lot of the differences in shipping come down to, not just a difference in perception of what story is being told on screen, but a complete difference in perception of the characters.

You see John and Teyla as being very compatible - I see them as being (as written) completely incompatible. You see Rodney and Jennifer as being incompatible - I see them as far more compatible (and preferable to me) than Rodney and Katie.

Let me say to start off with that I don't agree with the writers' heavy-handed approach to McKeller from The Shrine on. I may be wrong, but I think even many McKeller fans winced at how it was handled and that it ended up kinda taking over S5. But the relationship itself in concept I was fine with - I was kinda hooked starting with Jennifer's line "start swinging Schwarzenegger" in Trio. I liked that Jennifer could see Rodney's faults yet still be attracted to him - that she could gently tease him and that they could work together and interact on a level of equals.

For me the main difference between Rodney/Jennifer and Rodney/Katie, and even yes, Ronon/Keller is that I see Rodney/Jennifer as far more of a pairing of equals. Katie, though I liked her, seemed to come across to me as...well....kind of a little too timid and sensitive to really deal well with Rodney in the long term. I could just see Rodney riding roughshod all over her. I can't see Jennifer letting him get away with that, and I also think dealing with Rodney tends to bring out her own stronger side, whereas with Ronon, I suppose I saw (especially in Quarantine) more of a hero/damsel dynamic going on - and that's always tended to be something that turns me off.

Which I suppose we could swing back to John/Teyla now. Brad Wright's comment, when asked about the John/Teyla relationship, was to refer to how many times John has saved Teyla's life, and my reaction on hearing that was - what, are they Superman and Lois Lane now? Not exactly a relationship to emulate if you ask me. Again, as I said, I don't care for the hero/damsel dynamic - I am far more interested in relationships between close friends and equals.

And here I think is the key difference in perception - I don't see John and Teyla as being all that close, even on a platonic level. I do think they have a bond resulting from how they met, and that Teyla has been willing to join in with them. But I don't see them as being close in the way that they know each other well - that they're each other's best friends - that the other is more important to them than any of their other relationships. What I saw on screen just doesn't bear that out.

Personally, I would rank Teyla fourth among John's friends, after Rodney, Ronon, and Elizabeth. With all three of those characters, I saw instances of casual downtime bonding scenes that I didn't see with Teyla. I'm not saying they're romantic of course - but we see John hanging out and playing games with Rodney, sparring and watching movies with Ronon, or meeting with Elizabeth in her office or on the balcony. That kind of background casual one-on-one bonding stuff just doesn't exist between John and Teyla, particularly after Conversion which is the last time we ever saw John and Teyla spar (and that was early in S2). In some ways, it seemed like Ronon kinda took over Teyla's place with John as preferred sparring partner and "student" of earth culture ....and maybe even John's with Teyla. Before Ronon came along, John was her key contact among the Atlantis group - he was the one who brought her in and fought for her to stay. But after Ronon came, he was better suited to understand her concerns and perspectives as a Pegasus galaxy native whereas John has never really seemed to be all that concerned about Pegasus and the people there beyond how it affects Atlantis. And the writers didn't help that by attaching Ronon and Teyla at the hip throughout the majority of S2, and even later in episodes like Echoes and BAMSR, John may be the hero who saves them, but Ronon is the friend who is right there to pick her up off the floor, to hold her hand in the infirmary, to playfully tease with her, and to take her hand and gently lead her to see Keller after John exploded at her over her hiding of the pregnancy. So from Teyla's side, I would certainly say that Ronon has been a far better friend to her than John.

I think that Teyla Emmagan is a strong lady character that can make decisions for herself and by herself.

Well, and I think she did - she chose Kanaan. Personally I don't see any reason to think she might regret that decision or change her mind about it, and even if she did....and here's the key point for me.....I can't personally come up with the slightest reason that she would choose John. I guess this has always been the biggest sticking point for me - Teyla might (and I say MIGHT) be good for John, but I can't think of any way at all that John is good for Teyla. And I think here is where we run in to a problem of a fundamental difference in perception of the characters, because, while I like John Sheppard, I don't see him as the type of man that would ever be good for Teyla. I really honestly can't think of the slightest thing that Teyla could get out of the relationship. I see Teyla as needing someone more emotionally open and caring, someone interested in her culture and her people, someone willing to share her life and support her as a leader. And I can't see Shep fitting any of those qualities. As Flowerbud pointed out succinctly on the other thread, I think Teyla would end up making all the compromises in a relationship with John. She would end up having to be the one to conform to his customs, his ways, his people - and that disturbs me a lot.

As for Shep being with his subordinate, well, I don't quite think of Teyla that way. She's not in the military. Yes, she accompanies the team as a part of the group, but she does not have to answer to Shep if she does not want to. She is there of her own free will.

Technically no, Teyla is not John's subordinate. But to me, the problem is that John tends to treat her like one, and Teyla, more often than not, lets him get away with it. She has no problem meeting with Elizabeth or Sam on their terms, one on one, and dealing with them as equals. But for some reason, she won't stand up to John once he slaps her down. She may confront him over something she doesn't like, but once he delivers his reprimand or verdict, she doesn't fight him on it - she just accepts it. He yelled at her like she was just another soldier when she slugged Bates, he chewed her out for not telling him she was pregnant and she only feebly protested, he laid down the law to her about rejoining the team and she accepted it - unhappily but she did. John simply doesn't listen to her. In Hot Zone she tried to get him to think about what he's doing, going against Elizabeth, and it went in one ear and out the other. In Letters to Pegasus, he only had to give in because she literally forced his hand by leaving the jumper, not because she changed his mind. IIRC, only in Irresponsible did he actually listen to a reproach from her and back down a little. But most of the time, John seems to expect her to follow his orders just as the rest of his men do, and the fact that Teyla doesn't get in his face and correct his assumptions troubles me. To my perception, while they may not be technically CO/subordinate, they behave like CO/subordinate, and to be honest, that actually troubles me more when trying to think of them in a romantic relationship.

I just feel like Teyla really doesn't have any power in the relationship, and to be honest, a lot of that impression has been formed by the last two seasons and John's reaction to her pregnancy and rejoining the team. While I didn't necessarily disagree with him, he didn't really give her any options either, or appear to be open to discussion. This was the way it was going to be and that was that. *shrugs* He didn't act like a concerned friend in those situations - he acted like a boss.

I still think Shep belongs in Pegasus, as well as the rest of the team. The last time they were sent back home (The Return), they literally stole a jumper to go on an unauthorized mission because they couldn't stay away from the galaxy/colleagues that needed them...

Well, again our perspective differs here. I don't think Shep and company disobeyed orders in The Return because they were concerned about Pegasus or Teyla and Ronon. This was all about Atlantis. John has shown a willingness to do whatever it takes to save that city (except when Earth is on the line), but I've never really felt that his concern extended to the rest of the galaxy. Teyla and Ronon offered John a chance to stay in Pegasus, and he didn't even seem to consider it an option. It was only when Atlantis was threatened that he went into action.

I don't know how you can say that it would be "impossible" to write a John/Teyla union in a way that suits the characters personalities and the style of the show. Again, great writing can realistically achieve any end. The issue in my book is not that it "can't" be done well, but the fact that it can be done well if the right amount of talent, effort, and thought goes into this particular pairing.

I don't know. I've thought quite a bit how a John/Teyla pairing could have been written so that I would like it, and I've basically concluded that the writers would have had to have fundamentally changed the characters, especially Teyla. She would have had to have been written as a much more prominent and assertive character, instead of (as Linda06 so often says ) being the wallpaper. John....maybe not so much of a character change, but I would have had to have seen a lot more clear signs of affection and caring toward Teyla from him.

[Killdeer]

I maxed out the character limit...LOL! It's been a while since I did that. So part 2 -

I very much so disagree with your assertion that a John/Teyla pairing would change the tone of the show. That's like saying that the fact that Spock and Uhura were together in the last Star Trek movie totally made it a soap. We all know that this isn't the case. A love story can take place in a Science Fiction/Action/Adventure movie, and often times it does. I think that a well done John and Teyla romantic relationship would enhance what an SGA movie could bring to its audience, not diminish it.

It depends on what show you were watching I suppose. I don't know that it would make it a soap - I don't agree on that point. But again it goes back to what I said earlier - I didn't see any indications on the show (especially in the first three seasons) that John and Teyla thought each other to be the most important people in their lives. Again, it goes back to your perceptions of the characters. When I found out (more than halfway through the series) that John and Teyla were supposed to have been the canon couple, I was stunned because it doesn't at all fit into how I perceive these characters and their relationships with each other. The dream scene in S&R was even more of a shock, because even now I can't reconcile in my mind a John Sheppard who dreamed such a thing with the John Sheppard I saw in the entire rest of the show. It's like they're not even the same person. I don't know if that makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is - if you (generic you) see John and Teyla as holding this very important central place in each other's lives, then I can understand why a person might ship them and a relationship between them would only be a continuation of what you'd seen all along, not a change. For myself, I never saw a relationship between John and Teyla as being an major part of the show (or even much of a part of the show at all to be honest). And so to suddenly make it that would indeed be a change from the show I was watching. *shrugs* In this of course, as with everything else, MMV.

************************************

To completely switch gears here, and deal with the broader subject of shipping in general - it's a topic I find rather fascinating. I've actually never been sure where exactly I fit in on the shippers' continuum. Somewhere between die-hard shipper and noromo I guess.

I guess this also kinda works as sort of a answer to three of the questions above, which I never answered before - 1) Do you think TV shows need romance?, 2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?, and 3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you more than others?

I think the thing that draws me most into a show is relationships, and I will usually gravitate to whatever relationship is portrayed the strongest to me - maybe more than one. It doesn't bother me (usually) if those relationships are romantic, but I don't need them to be either. In White Collar, the central relationship is of course Peter and Neal, and then you have the secondary relationships of Peter with his wife, and the relationships between the team members, Neal and Mozzie, etc.

On Castle, the central relationship is of course Castle and Beckett. But there's also the relationships of Castle with his daughter and mother, and Ryan and Esposito.

On JAG, Harm and Mac were the central relationship, with various other relationships, such as Bud and Harriet, secondary.

Farscape - John and Aeryn (My favorite couple maybe ever) were central, but there were a variety of other relationships.

NCIS - I've never actually figured out a central relationship on NCIS. It's always been about the team as a whole to me - I don't really even have a favorite character.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess where I'm going (I'm kinda thinking while I type here) is that, while I adore relationships on shows, and I really do need relationships to really connect with a show, I don't necessarily need those relationships to be romantic. It doesn't bother me if they are - but I don't need them to be. I just need them to be there. I think that's also why, even when I do ship couples, I've never really needed them to "be together". It's just the caring that affects me - not necessarily the sparks. An embrace of comfort or a head on a friend's shoulder is often more emotionally affecting to me than a kiss or a steamy scene.

Anyway - I'll stop my rambling now.

[LoneStar1836]

Stupid thing says I have to spread some green around first, so I'll have to post to say great posts there, Killdeer. I agree with your assessments of those relationships.

McKeller could have actually worked, but SG writers have always sucked at writing main character ship and then it was just too dominant, and I do not watch Stargate for ship.