General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[ShadowMaat]

i thought you prefered blue shadow.

I love blue. Blue is right. But out of respect for differring opinions, I figured I'd include the much inferior (and wrong) green.

[Dani347]

edited because JaffaCake already beat me to quoting the post.

First, why would the show continue to emphasize that nothing can happen unless they wanted to make that point clear? Sam even said it herself. Heroes part 1. And, since I'd like to think that Sam and Jack are more than some primal bundle of hormones, they aren't going to go against their military edicts. Not for this. Because they're both career military people, and they'll do the honorable thing. While I could see any of the members of SG1 disobeying orders to save the planet or to save someone's life, I can't see them doing it because they like each other. In that case, they'd both resign. I know there may even be complications there, but in that instance, I'd be willing to fudge on the real life aspects. On the show, as has been said time and time again, two people in the military cannot have a relationship. Were they just farting in the wind when they said that, or did they mean it? For all the flaws the characters have, the members of SG1 are supposed to be "the good guys" As the good guys, and for Jack and Sam, as good military personnel, they aren't going to go against the rules, even if others are doing it. I'm trying to hold on to thinking that these two characters are more than their hormones. I'm trying to hold on to that they aren't going to go sneaking around, talking out one side of their faces, saying it can't happen, that they are committed to following these rules, while all the while lying through their teeth. These aren't the people I signed up for. Jack and Sam have both become characters that I have huge problems with, but I'd like to think there's something I like. Now, I don't even know if this is feasible, but the only way I can see them getting together without completely destroying their honor would be for the military in the Stargate universe to change the rules. Then, Jack and Sam wouldn't be breaking any rules that they agreed to follow.

Of course, that still doesn't get into the fact that, for me, the show hasn't done a good job of the ship, and I wouldn't trust them to do a good job. Not with what I've seen.

As for forbidden relationships, that isn't always great storytelling. Just because Shakespeare and whoever did West Side Story managed to make it compelling doesn't mean that all forbidden relationships are story gold. And, why is something going to happen, and if it doesn't they're emotionally dead? People work together day after day all the time, and don't end up knocking boots. Something has happened. They love each other like family. They don't have to be romantically involved to be emotionally alive. And, I'm going to try this again, and hopefully no one will read something I haven't said. But, why is it just Jack and Sam? Does it mean that Daniel is emotionally dead because he doesn't have the hots for Sam? Or that Teal'c doesn't? Or that Sam is only 1/3 emotionally alive, because she only has romantic feelings for Jack? I could be equal opportunity and wonder why the men aren't having feelings and acting on them for each other, as well. And, no, I don't want that to happen. I don't want them to all have romantic feelings and some huge orgy. That's the last thing I want.

Yes, this post was totally anti-JS ship. I feel no other way about it. But, I'm posting it here, because here is where people can actually debate my views.

[Webbgirl]

Having read some (but not all) of the comments on this and other lists about the Military Regs, I felt I had to respond. (Originally responded in the Anti-Sam/Jack Thread but was promptly reprimanded by a Sargeant-Major type who had no time for my nonsense!)

I was actually trying to save you from getting flamed and explaining that some threads are protected. I'll refrain next time.

I'm new to this list and was browsing around the various threads. Having read the Anti-Sam/Jack Thread, it's obvious that there are some fans who are ardently opposed to this "ship" thing. As a guy, I have to say it's not the first thing that rocks my boat but I enjoy good character development.

Can you explain how romance/ship whatever you want to call it equals character development? I agree that character development can come from that, but it can also come from good story telling.

I'm a long-time fan but haven't been involved in the online stuff until now. Always wondered what was going on between Carter and O'Neill, and as a writer who knows the value of relationships (both romantic and otherwise) in a storyline, always wondered why they didn't make more of this aspect of the show. It remains a mystery to me, but to suggest that it's because of the Military Regs is unrealistic. To suggest that two characters who have a strong mutual attraction would allow the Regulations to get in the way is to ignore human nature.

First I don't see the mutual attraction, so there's nothing there for me to want to see it taken further. Second TPTB had mentioned in the past that there were certain things that they couldn't do with the characters because the military advisor said it was a no-no. It's absolutely up to the show if they want to listen to the advisor, but if not...why have them there?

"Forbidden" relationships make for good TV, that's why there are so many stories about people who have affairs and worse.

Umm..for you maybe. Me not so much. If I wanted that, I'd go back to watching General Hospital.

And I've got news for you - everyone in the military is at it, folks. (I grew up on military bases around the world). That's why they have the regulations, so if anyone's caught they can throw the book at them if necessary. The military even has a policy on relationships between homosexuals, which is the ultimate taboo in the military - ever heard of "Don't ask, don't tell"? Fact is, most commanders turn a blind eye to relationships of any stripe because it's not worth stirring things up.

I'm sorry to hear that you've met so many people with so little integrity. Not everyone is doing it. There are men and women all over who serve in the military without breaking the regs. It's called honor and integrity.

These are two grown-ups, working together day after day - something's gonna happen between them unless they're emotionally dead.

So by this reasoning, Sam should be sleeping with all three of the guys by now. At this rate the show is going to end up on the Spice Channel instead of Sci Fi.

The Military Regs is a red herring, folks. That's like saying people don't speed because it's against the law. If there's a law (or a Reg), it's because people *are* doing something naughty.

So there's a law against murder because there are people who murder, but since there are people who murder, it's okay to murder?
The 'everybody else is doing it' defense usually goes away around the age of 8.

There's great dramatic potential in this relationship, and it wouldn't detract from the team dynamic, the mission, the mythology, the other characters, the stories or anything else for that matter.

If I had seen any evidence of the writers capablity of doing this, that would be great. Sadly, it's just not there for me.

[TameFarrar]

Personally, I think the whole argument about Regs is tedious and pointless. Both sides can argue until they're blue (or green) in the face without much being "proven" conclusively.

I have to say I too am tired of discussing the regs. *over* ,*done with*, they have no meaning any more.

What it all boils down to is that, Regs or no, I (speaking only for myself) think that Sam and Jack have as much sexual chemistry as a couple of rocks and I do not want to see the two of them together because I think it's a bad idea (for far more reasons than it being "against Regs") and because I simply don't find it believable.

On the other hand (speaking for only for myself) I have seen sexual chemistry between the two from the first episode. So what do you do? I find it amazing that they have done such a fine job *doing* theirs jobs with so much chemistry. Maybe that is why I can *see* the show past them. Since the chemistry is nothing new to me there is no *shoving of it down my throat* so to speak. I still get a thrill if they show a *moment* for the two of them. A hug or a dare I say it a look. But in the overall episodes it is never glaring. So if something does happen its not unreasonable to me because I already see it. Its not jumping off the screen at me, I guess would be a better way to say it.
I already think it is in the background, so therefore I already think that they can handle the ship easily and that is why I am so stunned that TPTB don't realize that they were ALREADY doing it.
The last half of S7....seemed like alot of stuff got shoved here and there and there was no plan. It felt like bad writing, it looked like bad writing. But did it all come off as bad??? I can't say it did. I really have no complaints. Other then the usual Shipper ones. That other guy ya know and no not Luke

so as I said what do ya do?

[Dani347]

Webbgirl, thank you for making my points and being able to do it without the extra verbiage I had.

People may not want to discuss the regs, and feel free not to, but I always thought it was proven. Straight from Sam's mouth in Heroes:

Even if there was potential for something more ... and I'm not saying that there is err ... our military positions, and the very nature of our jobs wouldn't allow for it.

In black and white (or blue and white, I'm quoting from the Gateworld transcript of Heroes1). So, my arguments as far as the regs go don't have to do with the real life ones, they have to do with the ones that are established on the show, and that all the way up to Heroes, Sam herself has said exist. And, yeah, I'd like to think Sam still has enough integrity to not go against them while she's naming them as a reason why the pairing can't happen. If the show had decided to do an alternative universe as far as the regs go, you wouldn't hear a peep from me about them. If the show had decided that in their world, in their military the regs didn't exist, I wouldn't care what the real world military felt about it. But, the show hasn't, and I'm going by the laws the show has set up for itself. Of course, I would still feel that the ship is wrong because I'd still feel there was a complete lack of chemistry between them, it makes Sam seem wishy washy and girly girly and Jack cold and unemotional, and that these writers can't write ship and still show 4 team members being of equal importance and caring for each other. Those objections would still stand.

[ShadowMaat]

A 63 year old man loving a 15 year old girl is also a "forbidden" relationship. A farmer making love to a pig is a "forbidden" relationship. A 24 year old nanny getting involved with her 14 year old charge is a "forbidden" relationship.

As said, not all "forbidden" relationships make for good storytelling. The two characters have to make sense as a couple, for one thing, and for me, Sam and Jack don't make sense.

It's also quite possible for men & women to work together very closely and NOT fall into bed with each other. I resent seeing a relationship forced into being just because someone feels there "has" to be a shippy element. I also resent seeing a developing relationship (platonic or otherwise) forced into being something more for the same reason.

My preference is to keep the ship in fanfic.

[Webbgirl]

Webbgirl, thank you for making my points and being able to do it without the extra verbiage I had.

No prob. Amazing the roll I get on when I'm really supposed to be working.

[Webbgirl]

A 63 year old man loving a 15 year old girl is also a "forbidden" relationship. A farmer making love to a pig is a "forbidden" relationship. A 24 year old nanny getting involved with her 14 year old charge is a "forbidden" relationship.

Squick factor.

As said, not all "forbidden" relationships make for good storytelling. The two characters have to make sense as a couple, for one thing, and for me, Sam and Jack don't make sense.

Amen to that one.

It's also quite possible for men & women to work together very closely and NOT fall into bed with each other. I resent seeing a relationship forced into being just because someone feels there "has" to be a shippy element. I also resent seeing a developing relationship (platonic or otherwise) forced into being something more for the same reason.

Keep the ship in fanfic.

And a big fat DITTO on that.

[Dani347]

And a big fat DITTO on that.

Amen! (shortest post I've ever made )

[TameFarrar]

A 63 year old man loving a 15 year old girl is also a "forbidden" relationship. A farmer making love to a pig is a "forbidden" relationship. A 24 year old nanny getting involved with her 14 year old charge is a "forbidden" relationship.

As said, not all "forbidden" relationships make for good storytelling. The two characters have to make sense as a couple, for one thing, and for me, Sam and Jack don't make sense.

It's also quite possible for men & women to work together very closely and NOT fall into bed with each other. I resent seeing a relationship forced into being just because someone feels there "has" to be a shippy element. I also resent seeing a developing relationship (platonic or otherwise) forced into being something more for the same reason.

Keep the ship in fanfic.

Okay, I am trying to see here where there is a place for discussion. Which point in the above are you wanting to *discuss*.

As I read through this I have no disagreement with you here all of the points you make are valid. Am I *supposed* to tell you that you are wrong?
I would never want to watch a 15 yr old girl with a 63 year old farmer and I am failing to see the relevance here in this discussion. How does that analogy *invite* discussion except for this type of confrontation?

The only thing I see in the above that even remotely is part of this is that Sam & Jack make no sense to you. Okay that I can understand. I have no way to know what to say to you or discuss it with you in order to *make* you understand but at least it makes sense to me in this thread.

I am at a complete loss here how to have a discussion here in this thread.

[the_fours]

I am at a complete loss here how to have a discussion here in this thread.

dont worry you will get used to it and it isnt just this thread, these threads can go in very random directions

[ShadowMaat]

[QUOTE=TameFarrar]Okay, I am trying to see here where there is a place for discussion. Which point in the above are you wanting to *discuss*.[quote]

I'm sorry you feel that way, TF. I was trying to illustrate by example that not all "forbidden" relationships make for good storytelling, which is a point that I felt JC was trying to make.

I was also saying that, for me, arguing about the Regs seems pointless because there are too many ways for the various parties to argue it as a way of to "proving" their points.

Would it be better if I said, "I prefer that ship stay in fic"? I'll go back and edit that, at least.

You don't have to "discuss" my post at all if you don't want to. I was simply making a statement/posting my observations.

[TameFarrar]

dont worry you will get used to it and it isnt just this thread, these threads can go in very random directions

Its not the directions of the thread that have me clueless here. It is the title and first few posts of this thread. I was lead to believe that this was a thread for *Ship Discussion* both houses Anti Ship and Pro Ship talking civilly about the reasons and what not behind why they saw things differently. What they felt added and subtracted from the show.
My statement was based on the premises that I am not finding a *discussion*.

[ShadowMaat]

My statement was based on the premises that I am not finding a *discussion*.

So start one and see if anyone joins in.

[the_fours]

My statement was based on the premises that I am not finding a *discussion*.

well it is a discussion people put their arguements forward and others counter such as what you and shadow are doing. I do agree sometimes the discussion can go a little off topic at which point someone needs to put it back on track.

I dont mind ship but not in sg-1, and if it has to be there i say leave it in the fanfic