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    My reason for being happy to watch shippiness in Farscape or BSG is that the ships are fluid. You truly never know whether a relationship will go well or sour or explode. There are enough characters (and in Farscape the characters leave and new ones join at quite a rate) that no relationship is ever The Only Relationship in which all shippiness is invested. S/J was hamstrung in the way that Moonlighting was hamstrung. Will-they-won't-they isn't something that can sensibly be dragged out for years and years.

    BSG isn't about the exploring exploits of explorers, like Stargate SG-1 has generally been. It's about the survival of a race of people with limited resources, a closed population and a murderous pursuer. You expect it to have a more introspective feel than Stargate; the 'people fall in love in RL so shippiness is 100% inevitable' thing that never made sense for me for SG-1 is pretty much true for BSG, with the larger cast and the claustrophobic feel of these people having their home, work and recreational facilities all confined to a few thousand cubic yards. And since none of BSG's PTB have ever told me that Helo and Boomer are soulmates who should and will end up together I can watch not knowing whether it'll go in the direction of choosing cushions or of manslaughter. There's drama there. S/J has been hanging around not really going anywhere for so long that it's lost all its dramatic potential for anyone not actually invested in S/J for its own sake.

    The will-they-won't-they is irritating. If nothing comes of it then it's both irritating and stupid. Jack's had his cameo with Daniel, he's had his cameo with Cam, let him have a little scene where he calls Sam 'sweetie' or asks where she put his pyjamas, and a nice scene with Teal'c too, and leave it there.

    Madeleine

    Comment


      Originally posted by Madeleine_W
      the 'people fall in love in RL so shippiness is 100% inevitable' thing that never made sense for me for SG-1 is pretty much true for BSG, with the larger cast and the claustrophobic feel of these people
      Funny, I always felt that way about the Mulder/Scully ship, but because of the small cast. It was a kind of emotional claustrophobia with them, but, especially on Mulder's side, it felt really like there was no one else. No one else went through what they did together, there was no one else they could trust completely. And, there, love was built on trust, so it seemed to flow. There was just something there before that wasn't ship, but was a deep bond, that it just made sense that it would develop along those lines. The argument that Jack and Sam are in a unique situation and spend all their time together so they'll naturally develop feelings just never made sense, because it never seemed to go beyond, "because she's the girl and he's the leading guy." They never seemed to bother explaining why Jack in particular. It was just like real people fall in love, and we're choosing Jack as the guy, and you just accept it. What did Jack do for Sam or vice versa? I mean, quality-wise? Since the elusive chemistry wasn't there for me, I would need something concrete. (I have to think if there have ever been any couples on tv that I didn't see chemistry with, but that were tolerable in spite of the lack)

      The will-they-won't-they is irritating. If nothing comes of it then it's both irritating and stupid. Jack's had his cameo with Daniel, he's had his cameo with Cam, let him have a little scene where he calls Sam 'sweetie' or asks where she put his pyjamas, and a nice scene with Teal'c too, and leave it there.
      Eh. I'm millitant. If nothing comes of it, it won't be irritating or stupid to me. It would be just wonderful. If Jack did a cameo with Sam as nothing but her mentor, or old friend, and there were no scenes, no hints, no not exactlys, if it were just as if the ship was a bad dream that had been wiped from show's memory, I would be ecstatic.
      I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

      Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

      Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

      Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

      http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


      Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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        Originally posted by Dani347
        If Jack did a cameo with Sam as nothing but her mentor, or old friend, and there were no scenes, no hints, no not exactlys, if it were just as if the ship was a bad dream that had been wiped from show's memory, I would be ecstatic.
        Seriously though, can you see that happenning? There'll be hints at the very least; and if the hints aren't pretty explicit then the shippers will want more and ask for more and sooner or later there'll be another scene with hints in to please the shippers - which it won't, cos the shippers have been so mucked around with that only an indisputable indication of an actual relationship will do - and it'll just go on and on and on. MS's rather crude phrase was "pee or get off the pot", but I prefer "get off the fence". TBTB are never ever going to climb down on the side of No S/J (or they might, but they'd leave a ladder there or stick one hand over the other side so as to give themselves leeway to change their minds) so they might as well come down on the shippy side and then they can leave the whole thing behind, including all their "not exactly"-style stupid prevaricating hints.

        Madeleine

        Comment


          Well, you're right. But, just like shippers would rather have the big no doubt about it scene that they're in love and together, I'd like it gone forever. And, I doubt anyone is going to get what they want.

          Of course, I think if there are no appearances with RDA, that would make it much more likely that there won't be any hints. They may not be able to resist putting their shippy claws into the storyline if he was actually there in the flesh, but without him, I think the temptation would be satisfied with the "not exactly" TPTB would be satisfied with it, I mean.

          But, whatever they do (no ship! No ship! No ship! *passes out muffins to tptb with No Ship written in icing) I hope that they find more to do with Sam than her love life? Think she's too perfect? Explore that in terms that don't include her love life. Want to show that she's human? Find another way. And, I still don't think any of it was necessary, because they had always shown her as being imperfect and human. All the reasons people give for why ship was needed for her character were never there for me, because the Sam I saw on my tv never lacked those things, and the scripts never lacked showing them. But, explore other avenues with her, please!
          I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

          Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

          Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

          Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


          Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

          Comment


            Originally posted by Dani347
            The argument that Jack and Sam are in a unique situation and spend all their time together so they'll naturally develop feelings just never made sense, because it never seemed to go beyond, "because she's the girl and he's the leading guy." They never seemed to bother explaining why Jack in particular. It was just like real people fall in love, and we're choosing Jack as the guy, and you just accept it. What did Jack do for Sam or vice versa? I mean, quality-wise? Since the elusive chemistry wasn't there for me, I would need something concrete. (I have to think if there have ever been any couples on tv that I didn't see chemistry with, but that were tolerable in spite of the lack)
            Yet another reason why I have a problem with Sam and Jack... Thanks for the reminder. Chemistry and awkwardness is one thing but some rationale behind "I care more for her than I should" would have been handy. Once again I invoke another scifi show... moi apologies... But I refer to B5 which had at the core of its storyline a pairing... While it didn't exactly excite me as a ship, it made sense and it was an integral part of the storyline... two strong individuals shouldering the burden of leadership and finding some solace in one another's strengths and company. Till this day, I still don't know what Sam sees in Jack... are we to assume that it is for his wisecracks... If so, is that enough to hold them together for the long term? With the way things were going in Seasons 7 and 8, I just can't imagine what kind of conversation the two of them could have. Outside of the military, I just can't see Sam and Jack having any kind of companionable relationship. Could Sam really maintain a relationship with someone who wasn't excited about physics, for instance? Hence, it makes more sense to me that Sam might find a life partner in someone like Rodney, for instance... I could see them getting excited about similar sorts of things and having mutually stimulating conversation.



            Eh. I'm millitant. If nothing comes of it, it won't be irritating or stupid to me. It would be just wonderful. If Jack did a cameo with Sam as nothing but her mentor, or old friend, and there were no scenes, no hints, no not exactlys, if it were just as if the ship was a bad dream that had been wiped from show's memory, I would be ecstatic.
            I'm not militant... just bored... Sam and Jack just doesn't excite me... They seem to be as you've said, forced together as a pairing because they are the lead male and female characters. If only Jack looked more interested and Sam a little less eager... Maybe... but then I just don't see that they have enough in common to sustain a long-term relationship.
            sigpic
            "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

            Comment


              Originally posted by Easter Lily
              Outside of the military, I just can't see Sam and Jack having any kind of companionable relationship. Could Sam really maintain a relationship with someone who wasn't excited about physics, for instance?
              And, if the argument is "opposites attract" I would still need more. If the answer boils down to just that, it just seems like they would be fitting characters into a cliche.

              I do wonder if the need for validation would have been there if tptb hadn't deliberately decided to bring the idea out into the open. I do think shippers are going to see shippiness in a pairing without it being necessarily written in. Natural caring can take on a romantic tinge, depending on your perspective. But, if they hadn't tried to incorporate it into the story, would J/S shippers be satisfied with just hints? Would they feel that they had invested years into something? I never felt the need for validation for Daniel and Janet. I just enjoyed the scenes that I saw, but that could easily have been seen another way. I think it was because I was never given any encouragement that what I saw was what tptb were actively trying to show me. I never once thought that there was a chance that they would write a declaration of love between them into the show. So, when it never happened, it didn't bother me.

              So, when we've exhausted our arguments pro and con J/S, anyone want to tackle another potentially divisive ship? I'm talking Daniel/Vala. *laughs maniacally*
              I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

              Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

              Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

              Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

              http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


              Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

              Comment


                Originally posted by Madeleine_W
                BSG isn't about the exploring exploits of explorers, like Stargate SG-1 has generally been. It's about the survival of a race of people with limited resources, a closed population and a murderous pursuer. You expect it to have a more introspective feel than Stargate; the 'people fall in love in RL so shippiness is 100% inevitable' thing that never made sense for me for SG-1 is pretty much true for BSG, with the larger cast and the claustrophobic feel of these people having their home, work and recreational facilities all confined to a few thousand cubic yards. And since none of BSG's PTB have ever told me that Helo and Boomer are soulmates who should and will end up together I can watch not knowing whether it'll go in the direction of choosing cushions or of manslaughter. There's drama there. S/J has been hanging around not really going anywhere for so long that it's lost all its dramatic potential for anyone not actually invested in S/J for its own sake.
                What you've said here also reminds me of another reason why I've never embraced S/J ... I've probably said it elsewhere but perhaps it bears repeating. Shows like BSG and B5 are arc based shows with a high degree of continuity... interaction between characters occur on different levels and personal relationships develop as a logical consequence of that consistent interaction. A show like SG-1, however, is episodic ... about a team of individuals having discrete adventures. As action is the main focus so not a lot of personal interaction occurs apart from the odd character development thing that gets thrown in now and again. So when people who go adventuring week after week suddenly declare to the world that they care for each other more than they should, well, it's all very bizarre especially when 90% of the time they're fobbing off aliens, blowing enemy ships and exploring dark caves. It just doesn't compute. Are they in love because they spend all this time together? Are they in love because they like the way the other person blows up ships? Sam and Jack have no history prior to their first meeting (say, in the way Riker and Troi did) or have very much in common. Any personal interaction that they've had is purely a case of superior officer/ subordinate banter... Can we be privvy to some conversation please?

                *grumbles about not being able to give out green to people participating on this thread*
                sigpic
                "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Dani347
                  And, if the argument is "opposites attract" I would still need more. If the answer boils down to just that, it just seems like they would be fitting characters into a cliche.
                  Well, from Moebius... I'd say that was the rationale... It does however, beg the question as to whether or not, it can be sustained in the long term. I suppose I don't have to care about that since one member of the pairing is no longer a presence on the show.

                  So, when we've exhausted our arguments pro and con J/S, anyone want to tackle another potentially divisive ship? I'm talking Daniel/Vala. *laughs maniacally*
                  I think much of the divisiveness comes from people not liking Vala...
                  sigpic
                  "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Easter Lily
                    . As action is the main focus so not a lot of personal interaction occurs apart from the odd character development thing that gets thrown in now and again. So when people who go adventuring week after week suddenly declare to the world that they care for each other more than they should, well, it's all very bizarre especially when 90% of the time they're fobbing off aliens, blowing enemy ships and exploring dark caves. It just doesn't compute. Are they in love because they spend all this time together?

                    I see the show as more character oriented than you, and the relationships important to the storyline. But, I agree that for me, the idea of a romantic relationship among any of them just seemed to come out of the blue. There was no warning for D&C. None that I saw. I saw at most that Jack felt Sam was a good looking woman. Fine, that I can accept. But, that's not enough to build romantic feelings on. He cared for her as a friend. Also, I'll accept. I always felt SG1 was a family of 4, with different bonds between them. But, the natural progression to make D&C make sense? I didn't see it.

                    Well, from Moebius... I'd say that was the rationale
                    Argh! *foams at mouth* I was so disappointed with Moebius. I liked AU Sam. I adored AU Sam. I thought she was the sweetest thing. And, then, they had to ruin it by putting ship yet again. Come on, guys, be creative. Try a different route. Also, at least real Jack had general qualities to recommend him. AU Jack in Moebius was a jerk. What did this shy, lacking in self esteem, but earnest, sweet, smart woman see in him? And, why would tptb want her to be with someone like that Jack?
                    Last edited by Dani347; 28 November 2005, 12:43 AM.
                    I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                    Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                    Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                    Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                    Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Dani347
                      I see the show as more character oriented than you, and the relationships important to the storyline. But, I agree that for me, the idea of a romantic relationship among any of them just seemed to come out of the blue. There was no warning for D&C. None that I saw. I saw at most that Jack felt Sam was a good looking woman. Fine, that I can accept. But, that's not enough to build romantic feelings on. He cared for her as a friend. Also, I'll accept. I always felt SG1 was a family of 4, with different bonds between them. But, the natural progression to make D&C make sense? I didn't see it.
                      I guess I do see Stargate a little differently from most people in that regard... I've never thought that Stargate was particularly strong on character development although I think the male to male interaction on the show is rather good. That said, I did like the team balance... how everyone had a role to perform sort of like the old Mission Impossible series but I always thought that the characters were largely subjugated to the storyline while in something like BSG... the characters are the catalyst as much as they are being driven. Not saying that either one is better... I'm sure there's room for both kinds of storytelling.


                      Argh! *foams at mouth* I was so disappointed with Moebius. I liked AU Sam. I adored AU Sam. I thought she was the sweetest thing. And, then, they had to ruin it by putting ship yet again. Come on, guys, be creative. Try a different route. Also, at least real Jack had general qualities to recommend him. AU Jack in Moebius was a jerk. What did this shy, lacking in self esteem, but earnest, sweet, smart woman see in him? And, why would tptb want her to be with someone like that Jack?
                      Like you, I didn't mind Moebius until the end... when they did the whole opposites attract nonsense and the ridiculous Moonraker ending. AU Sam and AU Daniel looked pretty good together... Actually AU Daniel teaching English was a hoot! (My background coming to the fore here)
                      sigpic
                      "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Dani347
                        And, if the argument is "opposites attract" I would still need more. If the answer boils down to just that, it just seems like they would be fitting characters into a cliche.
                        I could go with the opposites attract thing if I saw Jack take any sort of interest in Sam. Even when the girlfriend in Threads broke up with him and gave him the heavy hint about Sam he looked vaguely surprised as if he hadn't really thought of it before.

                        I do wonder if the need for validation would have been there if tptb hadn't deliberately decided to bring the idea out into the open. I do think shippers are going to see shippiness in a pairing without it being necessarily written in. Natural caring can take on a romantic tinge, depending on your perspective. But, if they hadn't tried to incorporate it into the story, would J/S shippers be satisfied with just hints? Would they feel that they had invested years into something? I never felt the need for validation for Daniel and Janet. I just enjoyed the scenes that I saw, but that could easily have been seen another way. I think it was because I was never given any encouragement that what I saw was what tptb were actively trying to show me. I never once thought that there was a chance that they would write a declaration of love between them into the show. So, when it never happened, it didn't bother me.
                        I think the S/J ship is so MPD because some of the writers are ship and some aren't.

                        So, when we've exhausted our arguments pro and con J/S, anyone want to tackle another potentially divisive ship? I'm talking Daniel/Vala. *laughs maniacally*
                        Well, I can some sort of justification for this one because of the potential explosiveness of the relationship. Just can't see it for S/J.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Easter Lily
                          What you've said here also reminds me of another reason why I've never embraced S/J ... I've probably said it elsewhere but perhaps it bears repeating. Shows like BSG and B5 are arc based shows with a high degree of continuity... interaction between characters occur on different levels and personal relationships develop as a logical consequence of that consistent interaction. A show like SG-1, however, is episodic ... about a team of individuals having discrete adventures. As action is the main focus so not a lot of personal interaction occurs apart from the odd character development thing that gets thrown in now and again. So when people who go adventuring week after week suddenly declare to the world that they care for each other more than they should, well, it's all very bizarre especially when 90% of the time they're fobbing off aliens, blowing enemy ships and exploring dark caves. It just doesn't compute. Are they in love because they spend all this time together? Are they in love because they like the way the other person blows up ships? Sam and Jack have no history prior to their first meeting (say, in the way Riker and Troi did) or have very much in common. Any personal interaction that they've had is purely a case of superior officer/ subordinate banter... Can we be privvy to some conversation please?
                          This is the exactly the way I see Stargate as well.

                          To be honest, I'm a continuity junkie. Stargate, with it's episodic structure and tendency to do a complete reset after many episodes is not the type of show I usually embrace. I absolutely adore shows with intricate, complex arcs that can tie in events from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. It was so squee-worthy to me when Farscape actually had a show in its fourth season reference quite wittily a throwaway line from an episode in Season 1. Things like that push my buttons.

                          Anyway, romance, in those types of stories, make sense to me. They ebb and flow depending on where the narrative takes the characters. Sometimes couples work out, most of the time they don't. I don't necessarily like each pairing as much as another, but taken as a whole it works, most of the time. A lot of people have brought up some great examples of these types of shows, Farscape, BSG, any of Joss Whedon's shows, and I would include Lost in here as well.

                          Stargate has an arc, but it's a very, very loose one, and oftentimes it chooses to ignore that arc all together. A lot of shows are standalones, and that reset button makes it very difficult for the characters to have the same kind of interaction you'd find in, say, in a Whedonverse show. I can point to specific episodes where Buffy and Angel (or Buffy and Spike, or John and Aeryn, etc.), slowly and surely moved on the path of romantic progression. It all tied together.

                          In Stargate, the Jack/Sam thing was so abrupt, it seemed to come out of the blue to me, and I think a lot of that has to do with the kind of show Stargate is. I remember watching Divide and Conquer and wondering where in the heck that had come from. Then it would disappear for a long time, then come back again at very odd moments, then go away again. Usually it was Sam being angsty about it and Jack indifferent, which didn't help. I don't mind angst (witness my love of Farscape, which is an angstfest ), but I like it to be there for both parties in the ship. By the end of the whole sorry mess I just wanted it to go away.

                          I don't know, perhaps if there had been a more logical progression I might have bought it better, assuming I ever saw any of that elusive chemistry that others did. Perhaps if there'd been some sort of reason that I could hang my hat on to show why these two were drawn together, I'd find it believable.

                          I'm skittish about Daniel/Vala for the same reason. I see chemistry with them, explosive chemistry actually, but it might be safer for the relationship to stay somewhat the way it is. I don't think, because of the way Stargate is structured, that romance is something that works well in this show.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Jonisa
                            To be honest, I'm a continuity junkie. Stargate, with it's episodic structure and tendency to do a complete reset after many episodes is not the type of show I usually embrace. I absolutely adore shows with intricate, complex arcs that can tie in events from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. It was so squee-worthy to me when Farscape actually had a show in its fourth season reference quite wittily a throwaway line from an episode in Season 1. Things like that push my buttons.
                            One thing I loved about B5 that I had not seen previously in any scifi show or since is the use of flashforwards... That moment of prescience where the audience is allowed a glimpse of the future... that was pretty nifty, I thought. It wasn't always what one thought it was either.
                            sigpic
                            "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

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                              Daniel/Vala? I could handle that. But only if it was realistic: it would have to last for a fairly short time and end badly. Nothing else would suit those two.

                              Whether they ever got back on good terms could be something to surprise me

                              Madeleine

                              Comment


                                I'm wary of any ship on Stargate now. I think Daniel and Vala have a ton of chemistry, but to me, all I can see when I think of ship between them is a huge neon sign saying CLICHE. I've said it in the Daniel thread, it's the "fight, fight, kiss" cliche and is just as unimaginative as the leading man/woman must pair up cliche. Plus, I kind of wish that tptb would take whatever chemistry they see between male and female characters and see that it can be developed in ways that don't necessarily have to be shippy.

                                Shep'sSocks:
                                I could go with the opposites attract thing if I saw Jack take any sort of interest in Sam. Even when the girlfriend in Threads broke up with him and gave him the heavy hint about Sam he looked vaguely surprised as if he hadn't really thought of it before.
                                I see it the same way. Particularly in season seven, they went out of their way to show Sam having feelings. I'm stressing Sam because I mean more than other characters being used to tell the audience that they see the feelings. Sam stammers like a school girl in Heroes when the subject comes up. Sam automatically thinks the reference to a special bond between her and Jack in Birthright is a romantic one. Sam strings Pete along. Sam goes to Jack's house in Threads. Is there any indication that Jack felt the least bit bothered by her enagement to Pete? Kerry told us that Jack had feelings for Sam. But, I never saw Jack confirm that.
                                I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                                Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                                Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                                Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                                http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                                Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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