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    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    As I said, I thought it was an interesting arc. And I'm glad to see that some people, like you, apparently didn't blame ship for the rocky stretches in the friendship. But I did see a ream of posts from Daniel fans since season 4 complaining about the fact that Jack and Daniel didn't seem to be good friends anymore and it was all the fault of ship, and D&C, and so on.
    I'm glad you thought it was an interesting arc. I didn't, because...I didn't see it. Still don't. I saw Daniel grow up and become less innocent and naive. I saw him grow in confidence. I saw a deep sadness after Sha're's death, and a sense of disillusionment bordering on despair at the end of Season 5. I didn't see this dark arc in Season 3-4 though. This would be a topic for the Daniel thread though, so, moving right along...

    No, I don't blame ship for any rocky stretches in their friendship. These are two very different men, with different worldviews, who are very passionate about their ideas and who were thrown into some intense situations. I think it was realistic they had some problems. I also think it shows a lot about how deep their friendship is that they have reached the point they're at now with each other.

    I do blame ship for the perception out there that Jack and Sam's first priority is to each other, and that Daniel and Teal'c are secondary. And yes, that perception is out there, and I can see where it came from.

    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    While I agree that there was more mention of ship in the second half of season 7 than in the first, I still fail to see how the other team members were neglected, or why the other relationships were neglected.
    Why did I feel they were neglected? Season 7.5 had episode after episode with angsty scenes between Jack and Sam. If they didn't have scenes like this together, there were other characters talking about their relationship. No other pairing on the team got this sort of screentime or that many mentions. I'm not just talking about relationships with Jack here, either, I'm talking about the entire team. It's a matter of perception, of course, and opinion, but mine won't change on this score.

    As a fan of the entire team and all the relationships, I was disappointed. I didn't want to see one pair emphasized over the other ones.

    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    The fact that Jack may not have as many scenes with Daniel as some fans might prefer, does *not* change the relationship between them, as we can see in the scenes they *do* share.
    Well, yes, but you could say the same about any other relationship. Why should there be lack of Jack/Daniel scenes simply because we already know they're friends? Or Jack/Teal'c? Or Sam/Daniel? By that logic there isn't any reason there shouldn't be a lack of Jack/Sam scenes in Season 8. We definitely know how they feel about each other. We saw it over and over again during Season 7.5. You'd have to have the observation powers of a turnip not to realize they're close. The fact that they might not have as many scenes together as some fans prefer, does *not* change the relationship between Jack and Sam, as we can see in the scenes they *do* share. (Doesn't feel so good when it's your favorite pairing, does it?)

    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    Daniel and Teal'c are not being neglected in terms of screen time or storyline (there are three Teal'c-dominant episodes in the first half of season eight alone);
    I'm thinking you misread this part of my post. I never said I felt that Daniel and Teal'c are being neglected this year. In fact, I think the producers have done an excellent job focusing on all the relationships and interactions so far. See, it can be done! I've loved the Sam/Daniel scenes in Covenant, the Daniel/Teal'c scenes in Affinity and especially Avatar, and the Sam/Teal'c scenes in New Order. I also love the three of them together, as I think they have a natural chemistry which comes from the obvious friendships between the actors. So I have no complaints at all about this year and I hope it continues.

    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    Basically, it seems that for some people the problem is simply with whom Jack is sharing scenes. With Jack's reduced presence, there is no way that everyone will get everything they want in this regard.
    Well not for me. Jack isn't the end-all, be-all of this show, IMO. And I fail to see how they can't balance RDA's screentime with the rest of the cast, even with his reduced presence. They've done it so far this year. There will just be less scenes with each character, instead of Jack having almost all of his scenes with the same character. There. Problem solved. That wasn't so hard.

    Question for you. At a recent con, in response to a question, MS mentioned there were going to be "lots" of Jack and Daniel scenes coming up. Now, the word "lots" is impossible to quantify, but how would shippers react if, because of RDA's reduced screentime, most of Jack's scenes in the rest of the season were with Daniel? (I highly doubt that will happen, it's just a scenario I'm throwing out there.) I wouldn't imagine they would be very happy. How much better to continue the balance they started at the beginning of this season.

    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    BTW, even if ship were dropped tomorrow, that is no guarantee that Sam would not still be in scenes with Jack that did not involve anyone else. For seven years, we have seen that Jack, as CO of SG1, had scenes with Hammond that did not involve any of the other team members. There is no reason why we would not see the same thing between Gen. O'Neill and the new CO of SG1, Lt. Col. Carter.
    Hm. Disagree. There is no way that the current SG-1 will have the same relationship with General O'Neill that they did with General Hammond. Yes, Carter will be the leader out in the field, (Side Note: Can we see more of this please? I'm more interested in how Sam does as a Commander than her lovelife with Pete or Jack.), but at the SGC I don't think Sam will be any more likely to have scenes with Jack than the other two. At least I hope not, that would be very unrealistic to me.

    There's too much history there between these four characters. The current team is a relationship of equals, and SG-1 seems almost more of advisors or consultants to Jack than anything else. Daniel has already made himself at home in Jack's office, and I don't think he gives one whit about military chain of command. Sam has been through so much with these two guys and is so close to them, I don't think she will be the same sort of CO that Jack was. She'll lead, but won't be as alpha about it. They'll follow, but not because she's a CO, because of mutual respect and friendship. Also, Sam isn't leading a very naive civilian, a displaced alien, and an astrophysicist. These guys can take care of themselves and there's no reason to exclude them from any sort of mission briefs. Also Jack seems to regard them as a unit, not Sam as the head and the other two beneath her.

    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
    I don't think that any of the characters will be pushed to the side. I think they will continue to have episodes and/or storylines that emphasize them. I am glad that you are not really anti-ship. This may surprise you, but I'm not looking for Romance of the Week, either. OTOH, there is no way to put ship into some of the eps (and I do think it will only be some) without actually talking about it, so if they do deal with it, there will be some eps where it is front-and-center or, at least, the B-story, just as there will be eps where it is will not be mentioned at all. I think they will try to balance it as best they can.
    Well, I'm more of an anti-shipper than a shipper, but I'm really somewhere in the middle. I just can't get all that passionate about ship either way, as I don't care. I'd prefer to see it disappear, but that isn't going to happen, so there's no sense in my getting all upset about it. Not worth it, for me, anyway. What I do care about is that I get to see all four team members interacting on a regular basis. I never want to see the over-emphasis we saw on Jack/Sam again with any of the characters. I began to dislike them, because I got so frelling sick of them.

    I fervently hope we never have an episode where ship is front and center. Yes, shippers want their moments, but so do other people with other preferences. For me, an episode all about ship is when Stargate SG-1 will quit being about team, and become the Jack and Sam show. Combine that with the polarization of the fan groups and the controversial nature of the ship, and it's a recipe for disaster, IMO. Keep the stories about scifi, and do the character moments and interactions along the way, as they've done all along. And please, please, please don't spend an inordinate amount of time on one pairing, no matter which one it might be.

    There's my two cents, which turned out to be closer to $20. Sorry. It probably doesn't need to be said, but I will anyway, all MHO.

    Enjoyed discussing it with you.
    Last edited by Jonisa; 05 September 2004, 05:44 AM.

    Comment


      Originally posted by DarkQuee1
      A



      While I agree that there was more mention of ship in the second half of season 7 than in the first, I still fail to see how the other team members were neglected, or why the other relationships were neglected. We aren't going to see the same amount of time with all four together as we did through season 6, because the shooting set-up has changed and made it impossible, along with RDA's limited schedule. The fact that Jack may not have as many scenes with Daniel as some fans might prefer, does *not* change the relationship between them, as we can see in the scenes they *do* share.
      We're at an impasse, because you won't ever see it, and I always will. Just like I'll never see chemistry between Jack and Sam, no matter how many times people tell me it's there. But, RDA's schedule should not have made it where the majority of his scenes last season (ad, this is mainly about last season, in my posts) had to be with Sam. I have some choice words for tptb, if they did throw their hands in the air and said, "What can we do? The shooting schedule and RDA's screen time give us no choice but to put him primarily with Sam" @#%[email protected]! (because there's no polite way to say what I think right there). And, another thing we won't agree on, but what I also will always see, Jack did not act the same in the scenes with Daniel. Oh, he wasn't telling Daniel to shut up, or fighting or anything. He acted like Daniel was a stranger. I'd almost wished they did fight, because there would have been more emotion out of Jack wrt Daniel. And, for the record, emotion is not the same as crying, "falling over him" or going to any extremes. And, I also didn't see him feeling hesitant to get close to Daniel because he was afraid they might lose him again, as some people have said. And, that happened right when they decided to stop making J/S ship a matter of eye of the beholder.
      Daniel and Teal'c are not being neglected in terms of screen time or storyline (there are three Teal'c-dominant episodes in the first half of season eight alone); they simply may not be having it with Jack, but may be sharing time with each other (remember that if RDA were filming full time, some of the Daniel/Teal'c scenes wouldn't have happened. An example was "AFfinity": the scene at Teal'c's apartment where Daniel came to talk to him, was supposed to be Jack but was changed to Daniel because of RDA's diminished schedule.) And we are seeing more Daniel and Sam scenes because of things being Jack-lite. (Even in regard to romance: in Affinity, while there was a scene between Sam and Jack, there was also a scene between Sam, Teal'c and Daniel about romance and love lives.)
      Wait. I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't been talking about this season. There are a few episodes I've found boring (haven't gotten to awful) but I've been satisfied with the dynamics of the team. In this season, when Jack and Daniel are together, they act like the Jack and Daniel I know. It was last season where the problems lay for me.

      B
      asically, it seems that for some people the problem is simply with whom Jack is sharing scenes. With Jack's reduced presence, there is no way that everyone will get everything they want in this regard.

      You know, they're doing a pretty good job this season. He's not spending almost all of his time with Sam, or about Sam (with a crumb or two thrown to Daniel or Teal'c, so others can trot them out as examples of how great they were). They managed (imo) to balance his interactions among the whole team very well this season. So, again, I don't buy that the glut of time he spent with Sam last season was inevitable. They've proven to me that it isn't, so they won't get a pass for last season. But, this season hasn't been shippy, so far, either.


      (BTW, even if ship were dropped tomorrow, that is no guarantee that Sam would not still be in scenes with Jack that did not involve anyone else. For seven years, we have seen that Jack, as CO of SG1, had scenes with Hammond that did not involve any of the other team members. There is no reason why we would not see the same thing between Gen. O'Neill and the new CO of SG1, Lt. Col. Carter.)
      It's not about never having any scenes like that. It's about the majority of his time being spent with Sam. Again, I'll use what has been shown of season 8 as illustrating that there is no excuse why they would have to make the majority of his time with Sam. If they wind up doing it in the second half of this season, it won't be because they can't help it. It will be because they are deliberately pushing an agenda. And, if they add their little tricks like music and lighting and camera angles, it won't be an agenda I'll be able to stomach.
      I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

      Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

      Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

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        Originally posted by Jonisa
        I must have missed Daniel's dark arc, because I never noticed it. He did seem awfully sad though, after Sha're died. Maybe it wasn't really dark, maybe it was more of a light brown.
        I never noticed Daniel having a dark arc between FiaD and AP either. Yes, there were times he seemed depressed but he was grieving for his wife. The friendship between Jack and Daniel certainly didn't change in the second half of Season 3 at all. In Past and Present, there's certainly conflict between Jack and Daniel but it's because of Jack's concern about Daniel and the way he's behaving with Kira. Then you have Jolinar's Memories/The Devil you Know in which Jack is injured and it's Daniel that's helping him get around. Also, the altered memory which Daniel has, is of a scene with Jack in which Jack tells him that he might not believe him but he does believe in him. A lovely friendship moment. Next is Foothold, I don't remember any special friendship moments between them here. Then Pretense in which Jack and Daniel work together on Skaara's behalf and Urgo which has some lovely Jack and Daniel bits. 100 Days doesn't have much but there is a line at the end where Daniel gives Sam an insight into Jack's behaviour. Shades of Grey is definitely a darker episode. It's Daniel who goes to see Jack, and Daniel who is devastated by Jack's comments. Of course, at the end of the episode, Jack tells Daniel that he appreciated the visit. New Ground, nothing specific. In Maternal Instinct, Jack lets Daniel spend as much time as he wants inside the temple, despite his own misgivings. And there's the lovely "Daniel...shoes" line at the end. Crystal Skull, Jack doesn't believe Nick until he repeats Daniel's "Jack dont' be an ass" comment. Finally in Nemesis, there's the infirmary scene in which Jack is checking to make sure Daniel is okay, even asking him to go fishing. No, I don't see any change in the J/D friendship in Season 3, even after Sha're's death.

        I see the changes as beginning at the start of S4. Jack, Sam and Teal'c return and neither Jack nor Sam seems at all concerned about how Daniel has been while they were away. The lack of concern for Daniel and Jack's bad behaviour towards Daniel are shown during S4, especially the first half of the season. I think that the reason for this is that TPTB were trying to play down the J/D friendship in order to push the J/S ship. Take the Other Side. Jack and Daniel are on opposing sides for the whole of this episode. The final scene, if it were not to show the whole of SG1, should have been between Jack and Daniel, either a resolution of the conflict engendered in the episode or a scene showing the two men still had issues with each other. However, the final scene was between Jack and Sam. This was surely done to show that Sam was unhappy with Jack's decision to close the iris and to show Jack's reaction to Sam. This highlights the relationship between Jack and Sam. The whole season pushes the relationship between Jack and Sam. Daniel who's he? Sam's the person who Jack depends on. Unfortunately, because RDA simply doesn't seem able to act as though Jack has any sort of romantic feelings for Sam, the whole J/S ship thingie doesn't work. TPTB might be writing Jack as being in love with Sam but I DON'T SEE IT.

        So yes, for me, the J/S ship did spoil the J/D friendship from the start of S4 onwards. I hate the J/S ship because of that. The complete lack of chemistry between Jack and Sam, the regs which forbid any sort of romance between superior/subordinate officers, the complete lack of common interests between Jack and Sam, the fact that Jack frequently belittles Sam and she is frequently irritated by him and the great chemistry between Sam and Pete all simply serve to reinforce my belief that the J/S ship should never have been introduced to the show in a million years.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Madeleine_W
          I never hung out in any fandom before this, but I know there are people here who have. *Are* there any pairings that were pretty much universally liked (or at least universally not-disliked)? Willow and Tara? Sheridan and Delenn? Leia and Han? The Red Dwarf Scutters?
          At least in the circles I hang in Lorelai/Luke on Gilmore Girls is pretty much liked. I haven't found it disliked (although I admit to just not caring about it. I can take it either way). Of course, if that relationship becomes the focal point of the show, rather than just another aspect, then I'll start disliking it. But, right now, I think it fits that no one (I know of) is actively against it.
          I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

          Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

          Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

          Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


          Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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            Originally posted by Madeleine_W
            I never hung out in any fandom before this, but I know there are people here who have. *Are* there any pairings that were pretty much universally liked (or at least universally not-disliked)? Willow and Tara? Sheridan and Delenn? Leia and Han? The Red Dwarf Scutters?
            John/Aeryn of Farscape come to mind immediately. There are some people in the fandom who don't ship them but I certainly rarely see active dislike. I think Willow/Oz was very popular, even more so than Willow/Tara. Personally I liked both. (Willow/Kennedy on the other hand? Let's not go there.)

            Thinking...Joan/Adam of Joan of Arcadia also seems quite popular. That show's only a year old though, so who knows what might happen there.

            There are probably more, but I'm blanking on any others at the moment. Also I'm haven't been around fandom for that long, there are probably others around here who could come up with more examples.

            Comment


              I never noticed Daniel having a dark arc between FiaD and AP either. Yes, there were times he seemed depressed but he was grieving for his wife. The friendship between Jack and Daniel certainly didn't change in the second half of Season 3 at all. In Past and Present, there's certainly conflict between Jack and Daniel but it's because of Jack's concern about Daniel and the way he's behaving with Kira. Then you have Jolinar's Memories/The Devil you Know in which Jack is injured and it's Daniel that's helping him get around. Also, the altered memory which Daniel has, is of a scene with Jack in which Jack tells him that he might not believe him but he does believe in him. A lovely friendship moment. Next is Foothold, I don't remember any special friendship moments between them here. Then Pretense in which Jack and Daniel work together on Skaara's behalf and Urgo which has some lovely Jack and Daniel bits. 100 Days doesn't have much but there is a line at the end where Daniel gives Sam an insight into Jack's behaviour. Shades of Grey is definitely a darker episode. It's Daniel who goes to see Jack, and Daniel who is devastated by Jack's comments. Of course, at the end of the episode, Jack tells Daniel that he appreciated the visit. New Ground, nothing specific. In Maternal Instinct, Jack lets Daniel spend as much time as he wants inside the temple, despite his own misgivings. And there's the lovely "Daniel...shoes" line at the end. Crystal Skull, Jack doesn't believe Nick until he repeats Daniel's "Jack dont' be an ass" comment. Finally in Nemesis, there's the infirmary scene in which Jack is checking to make sure Daniel is okay, even asking him to go fishing. No, I don't see any change in the J/D friendship in Season 3, even after Sha're's death.
              No one said that Daniel went darkside immediately (I presume that, since you don't see any change in him in Past and Present, you believe that Daniel's whining about respect is just business as usual for him? <<g>>), or that he ever got to that point. These are still people he cared about and there were plenty of times when he remembered that. But there were also times when he behaved in a manner that he did not do before the arc started.

              AP stopped Daniel *before* he slid to the point where he forgot what these people all meant to him. Some fans have claimed that Shifu was just telling Earth how bad it would be to have Goa'uld knowledge, or how bad it would be for Shifu. This makes no sense. First, Shifu already has the knowledge, and it clearly hasn't affected him, probably because he is Ascended. So, nothing to discuss there.

              Second, everyone on Earth, including Daniel, had already stopped looking for him. Therefore, until he actually showed up, the Goa'uld knowledge that he had was a non-issue. There was no possibility of using the knowledge *until* he came. So it wasn't the reason he came.

              Third, no one on the base had the "dream" *except* Daniel. If he were talking to everyone, he would have had them all see it. He was talking *only* to Daniel. I think he came because Sha're cared for Daniel, and that left something in him as well.

              After FIAD, Daniel was angry (as well as sad). The death of Sha're brought his hatred of the Goa'uld to the surface and made it a more dominant factor in his life and thoughts. The conversation with Shifu about power and about Daniel changing his path is a clear indication that Shifu saw Daniel as trying to find means with which to destroy the Goa'uld, to take the fight to them, and to find the power needed to accomplish this. He was trying to show Daniel that both his hatred and the power he sought would end up destroying him, spiralling him down to the point where he would be willing to eliminate the people who cared about him, along with many others.

              It was an extremely powerful episode and one of the best and most important Daniel eps. To deny the arc is to destroy the ep's power *and* point.

              I see the changes as beginning at the start of S4. Jack, Sam and Teal'c return and neither Jack nor Sam seems at all concerned about how Daniel has been while they were away. The lack of concern for Daniel and Jack's bad behaviour towards Daniel are shown during S4, especially the first half of the season. I think that the reason for this is that TPTB were trying to play down the J/D friendship in order to push the J/S ship. Take the Other Side. Jack and Daniel are on opposing sides for the whole of this episode. The final scene, if it were not to show the whole of SG1, should have been between Jack and Daniel, either a resolution of the conflict engendered in the episode or a scene showing the two men still had issues with each other. However, the final scene was between Jack and Sam. This was surely done to show that Sam was unhappy with Jack's decision to close the iris and to show Jack's reaction to Sam. This highlights the relationship between Jack and Sam. The whole season pushes the relationship between Jack and Sam. Daniel who's he? Sam's the person who Jack depends on.

              OK, you clearly fall into the "it ruined the friendship" camp, like Brihana, rather than the "it's getting in the way of onscreen time between Jack and Daniel", like Madeline. However, you still haven't shown why ship was responsible, vs any other reason. Even if you don't accept the darker arc, despite MS' statements that he sought to make Daniel darker, there are many other factors. Not the least that any friendship goes through periods when it gets strained, especially when it is constantly tested under intense, stressful conditions that would emphasize the differing opinions, approaches and perspectives of both Jack and Daniel.

              More importantly, the two examples you cite don't support your proposition. And they certainly don't acknowledge the requirements of a 43-minute episode. Small Victories? They didn't show concern for Daniel? Huh? First, let's note that you include Teal'c in that. He didn't ask, either. How would ship between Jack and Sam possibly change Teal'c's feelings toward Daniel? Is ship catching?

              Besides, Daniel wasn't the one who had been in danger; *they* were. Yes, Daniel had had appendicitis, but that's really only potentially serious at the start, if it bursts. It is clear from the beginning of "Nemesis" that Daniel is long since past any danger, and all that's left is a week or so of healing. It is equally clear from the beginning of Small Victories that Daniel is up and about, walking without any apparent pain or restriction and looking just fine. What is there to be concerned about?

              My memory could be faulty, but I don't remember anyone asking Jack, Sam or Teal'c how they were, and they had been in a considerably worse position ( I *do* remember complaints by Hammond and Daniel about the smell, however. <<bg>>) This is a 43-minute episode, and they had a lot to do. The writers weren't getting into something that had no relevance to the rest of the ep. For myself, I would have no reason to assume that this wasn't something SG1 talked about among themselves elsewhere.

              Yes, fans like to see the "touchy-feely" scenes, but those scenes aren't always the priority of the writers and there are any number of eps where we don't get them.

              (I also notice that they did not ask about the health of Hammond or Janet--both people about whom they care--or anyone else. No one seems to be upset about that!)

              As for TOS, yes, the last scene had Jack and Sam in it, instead of Jack and Daniel. Yet, there was absolutely *nothing* shippy in that scene. We learned something about Jack (as did Sam) and something about Sam. But what we learned had to do with their individual characters, not with any relationship between them, other than as team members and friends.

              If you put Daniel into the scene instead of Sam, would the scene have become slashy? Well, if the same dialogue and actions would not be slash with Jack and Daniel, then it is not ship between Jack and Sam. Changing the gender of one of the participants in the scene doesn't change behavior from friendship to romance. It was an important scene from a character perspective, but it had nothing to do with ship.

              As for Jack and Daniel resolving any hard feelings between them: to begin with, that would be more of a tag scene, which the show does not do. Second, there is *no* way that this could have been accomplished in the same minute or so that the last scene we saw took place. The discussion you were looking for--and I would have liked, but I'm for a different reason from you--needed a lot of time to do right. There was a lot that needed discussing. And there was absolutely no time in the ep to do it.

              You are asking for something they could not have fit into the episode, and blaming ship instead of time restrictions for the fact that it was't there. Yet, the time restrictions are far and away the most imperative reason. And the most absolute. There is no leeway on the episode time.

              When I read these complaints about the friendship in season 4, something becomes obvious. Fans who complain that ship interfered with Jack and Daniel at this time are all laying the friction at Jack's door. He wasn't being nice to Daniel; he wasn't being concerned enough about Daniel; he was jumping all over Daniel. And the reason was because he was more interested in Sam, that is, ship.

              Except this is an "eye of the beholder" thing. I saw Daniel as much more the sinner than the sinned against (and I am not alone in this. I have met many a fan who sees it the way I do, just as there are others who come from your perspective ). From his nasty comment in SOG, to his contemptuous behavior in TOS--and there is no way, in RL, that it would not have affected his going through the gate again; the military would not countenance a subordinate member of the team repeatedly challenging the CO *in front of the other side* (wouldn't be countenanced in civlian life, either. Daniel would have been fired if he'd done that to a company VP). And Jack responded (it took a while, too, before he snapped at Daniel. If it had been a colonel like Makepeace, Daniel would have been lucky to come back with all of his body parts!). Even the way in which he addressed Jack's comment in Crossroads that Teal'c and Shau'nac had a history had a putdown element to it--and I hadn't expected a response like that so I wasn't looking for it (Jack was right about the history, yet Daniel never apologized).


              And I don't see how Jack "depended on" Sam more in season 4 than he did Daniel. If it were a technical problem they were solving, then Sam would be the logical choice. Other than that, I have no idea to what you are referring.


              If Daniel instigated or caused a lot of the friction, you can hardly blame ship for that. It didn't come from Jack's attitude or behavior but from whatever was bothering Daniel.


              J.
              "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


              Comment


                Oma taught Shifu to bury the gou'ald knowledge, because it was so powerful. It's because the knowledge was buried, and he couldn't get to it that it didn't affect him. If he was actively using the memories, he'd be just as evil.

                First, let's note that you include Teal'c in that. He didn't ask, either.
                Teal'c did tell him that he was pleased to see he was well.

                Except this is an "eye of the beholder" thing..
                Most things are. You can give evidence of quotes and scenes, but how people view them is a matter of interpretation. Some people see the kiss in WoO as shippy. Others don't. Some see the scene in TOS as shippy, others don't. I can't give definitive knowledge on who's opinion is right, because there's no right or wrong here. Just different viewpoints.
                I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                Comment


                  Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                  AP stopped Daniel *before* he slid to the point where he forgot what these people all meant to him. Some fans have claimed that Shifu was just telling Earth how bad it would be to have Goa'uld knowledge, or how bad it would be for Shifu. This makes no sense. First, Shifu already has the knowledge, and it clearly hasn't affected him, probably because he is Ascended. So, nothing to discuss there.
                  Wow. I complete and utterly (and respectfully) disagree with this. I'll be brief, as this is the ship discussion thread. They clearly stated in the episode that Oma "buried the memories in his subconscious". Shifu did not have the Goa'uld knowledge anymore. During the episode, they were discussing ways to try to get him to remember, including using the Tok'ra memory device. I just watched that part of the episode to be sure, and it is very clear. So I believe your above statement about Shifu having the knowledge and it not affecting him is incorrect.

                  Are you really suggesting that had Shifu given the knowledge of the Goa'uld (and all the evil that it contains) to Sam or Jack or Hammond or anyone else they wouldn't have gone evil? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me. That it was all about Daniel's dark arc and how he was dangling on the precipice of going dark, which many, many people do not see. Perhaps they should have been a little clearer about it.

                  I still do not see a dark arc for Daniel and I disagree with most of your analysis. I agree he was snitty in Past and Present, but the guy had just lost his wife, for heaven's sake. I think he's allowed one episode to be a bit out of character. Jack's been much more snitty in situations that were not nearly as life-altering.

                  The only thing I'm going to say about 'The Other Side', is that you seem to claim the entire disagreement they had is all Daniel's fault. It seems to me you're saying that Daniel has to bear responsibility for Jack's rudeness? Did I hear you correctly? I teach my students and my children they are responsible for their own behavior. Obviously in your estimation Daniel is responsible for Jack's rude behavior. as well as any mistakes of his own he might have made. Nice for Jack that he doesn't have to take any responsibility.

                  I'm not saying Daniel is without faults. He has plenty of them, and that's what makes him interesting. However, in the same way that you say some fans lay all the fault for their disagreements on Jack's door, you seem to be laying them all on Daniel's. I think they were equally responsible. I could say more about this whole Jack and Daniel thing, but this is the wrong thread. Besides, there are more eloquent posters out there.

                  Getting back to ship, the rocky nature of Jack and Daniel's friendship is what made it so much more interesting to me than Jack/Sam. These are two people who are different down to their very center, yet have a close friendship despite those differences. We never knew what was going to happen between those two.

                  With Jack/Sam, it was "Yes, sir", "No, sir", and "With all due respect, sir". Their relationship (for me, anyway), never delved into the complexities that the Jack and Daniel friendship did. So I never was all that interested in it. I'm still not. I highly doubt I ever will be. The words dull, forced, and chemistry-less come to mind whenever I think of it.

                  I'll say it again. Shippers deserve their moments, so do Jack and Daniel friendshippers. So do people who like to see things blow up. Or...whatever. What no one deserves is to see one storyline threaten to overshadow everything else, as I felt ship did in Season 7.5. Notice I said threaten...I don't think it's happened yet.

                  I hope it never does.
                  Last edited by Jonisa; 06 September 2004, 05:46 PM.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by DarkQuee1

                    You are asking for something they could not have fit into the episode, and blaming ship instead of time restrictions for the fact that it was't there. Yet, the time restrictions are far and away the most imperative reason. And the most absolute. There is no leeway on the episode time.
                    You've brought up some very interesting ideas. I also think that sometimes the show drops the ball, so to speak, in following through on what would support what's best for a character in any certain ep. (did that make sense?<g>) What I'm trying to say is that sometimes I've gotten irritated at what an ep 'didn't' show, and how it ended up shorting my fave character (Sam). Examples being Ascension and Desperate Measures.

                    Spoilers for S5

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                    In Ascension, it made no sense that everyone would so easily accept that Sam was losing it. I also felt her friends weren't really there for her. There were a couple of nice moments with Jack, but there was also a couple of moments where I wanted to smack him. The ep didn't service her character the best way, and it was because of the writing, not because of ship. I 'think' it was someone on OS once that said that the writers sometimes write the characters around the plot, instead of the plot being written around the characters. And I totally agree. But they don't do it constantly, thank heavens.

                    The other example is Desperate Measures. I felt too much time was spent on Jack's search for Sam, instead of what Sam was going through. Yes, they showed Sam, but not enough to me. And the end... When a character goes through hell, you want to see the hurt/comfort they'll get by their friends and such. And the show ended with Jack in the hospital, after being shot in the shoulder. Okay, he got shot, but what about Sam? She was abducted, drugged, experimented on, and almost murdered, but the show ends on Jack h/c. It seemed so wrong, and I couldn't understand why it had happened other than because RDA was the star.

                    Oh, I forgot the lovely ending to 2001. Sam comes flying through the gate upside down, but the guys showed *very* little concern for her. What we found out was that the guys didn't want to take the time to have another camera set up or something (they wanted to go home), but that doesn't help the end or how 'they' came off or how the ep came off.

                    These moments for me were failures, and they had absolutely nothing to do with ship ruining them. My fave character got shafted to me, but a number of things went into it that wasn't ship related. Poor choices and even poor writing, but not ship. At least to me.

                    Sally
                    sally

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                    Comment


                      Wow. I complete and utterly (and respectfully) disagree with this.
                      Certainly your absolute right to do so. And I appreciate the respectfully! <<g>>


                      I'll be brief, as this is the ship discussion thread. They clearly stated in the episode that Oma "buried the memories in his subconscious". Shifu did not have the Goa'uld knowledge anymore. During the episode, they were discussing ways to try to get him to remember, including using the Tok'ra memory device. I just watched that part of the episode to be sure, and it is very clear. So I believe your above statement about Shifu having the knowledge and it not affecting him is incorrect.
                      They--and I presume you are talking about the people at the SGC--may have. But this may have been when he was younger, and it even may be something he wanted them to believe. Shifu is an Ascended, just like Oma, and at some point, Oma's ability to keep something buried inside his mind disappears, if it hasn't already.

                      Are you really suggesting that had Shifu given the knowledge of the Goa'uld (and all the evil that it contains) to Sam or Jack or Hammond or anyone else they wouldn't have gone evil? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me. That it was all about Daniel's dark arc and how he was dangling on the precipice of going dark, which many, many people do not see. Perhaps they should have been a little clearer about it.

                      I don't know what others would have done or done with the power. Some of them would have been tempted; others, not. That's not the point: my point was that Shifu came for a specific reason, and it wasn't to prove to the SGC that the knowledge a Harcesis would have is dangerous. Until Shifu showed up, it wasn't an issue and nobody was looking for him anymore.

                      When he did come, he did *not* send the "vision" to anyone but Daniel. He was there solely for Daniel. He had no special interest in anyone else; I think he had some feeling for Daniel that was a residual of what he got from his mother. So he came to help Daniel at a time when Daniel needed it.

                      I agree he was snitty in Past and Present, but the guy had just lost his wife, for heaven's sake. I think he's allowed one episode to be a bit out of character. Jack's been much more snitty in situations that were not nearly as life-altering.
                      Why is being "snitty", snarky, snotty or anything along those lines, out of character for Daniel? He's been that way more a lot more once over the years. Of course, so has Jack. Jack is chronically grumpy. But Daniel can match Jack for sarcastic, snarky or even nasty, when he wants to. (BTW, P&P was the only time we got that "you don't respect me" stuff from Daniel. Remember "Need", for example? Yes, he was "high", but often when you are drunk or on drugs, you lose your inhibitions and say what you really think.)

                      The only thing I'm going to say about 'The Other Side', is that you seem to claim the entire disagreement they had is all Daniel's fault. It seems to me you're saying that Daniel has to bear responsibility for Jack's rudeness? Did I hear you correctly? I teach my students and my children they are responsible for their own behavior. Obviously in your estimation Daniel is responsible for Jack's rude behavior. as well as any mistakes of his own he might have made. Nice for Jack that he doesn't have to take any responsibility.

                      I never said Jack wasn't responsible for his own behavior. That's one of the reasons IMO he apologized: because he didn't like the fact that he had told a subordinate to "shut up" in public; it's not appropriate. OTOH, Jack was being backed into a corner. And that *was* Daniel's fault. Most people, when someone is being repeatedly rude (as Daniel was being)and is repeatedly showing contempt and disrespect for them and their command in front of strangers, will snap back at some point. And this is Jack, whom we know from over three years of watching him, is not going to just sit back, smile and take low. Jack bites back.

                      I will repeat again that I do not think that Daniel was wrong to want to ask some questions. However, as to the argument that resulted, yes, in this instance I do think it was Daniel's fault. I am not suggesting by any means that every argument between Jack and Daniel is Daniel's fault, but this one was. He started it by refusing to acknowledge Jack's request to talk to him later or the position that Jack was in. Or, for that matter, the fact that Jack is in command. Daniel showed no respect for Jack's command at that point (goes along with, I suppose, with his line in S0G, which I have no doubt got back to Jack. That had to hurt--and stuff like this in TOS probably brings it back into play).

                      If one of your students engaged in this behavior, you would not tolerate it. Yes, you are dealing with children, so you would not be as blunt. But Daniel isn't a child and he certainly isn't stupid. And Jack's "shut up" didn't come immediately or in the first meeting. When they got together again, and Daniel did the same thing, that's when the "shut up" came. Since Daniel refused to stop no matter what Jack had asked him to do, what was the alternative to "shut up" (especially when Daniel had suggested that Jack's "later" was too subtle)? Punching him out? (Jack was not "rude"--though I don't necessarily think that rude is the right term, but I'll use your designation--initially; simply not wanting to listen to Daniel at a particular time does not rudeness make.) If you wish to classify the "shut up" as rude, for sake of the discussion, I'll adopt that. However, by that time, he had no other options.

                      You know, I've read tons of fanfic and posts over the years about how Daniel has low self-esteem or how upset he gets when anyone gets harsh with him. Like heck. He may have, on the outside, adopted the diffident manner that the HS geek adopts to fend off the attentions of the HS jock, but that's just the outside. The Daniel on the show is steel inside (one of the things I like about him). He tends to think he's right (which he sometimes is and sometimes isn't). He knows what he wants; wants what he wants when he wants it; he'll argue with anyone to get it;

                      Sometimes that's a good thing; sometimes it isn't.


                      Getting back to ship, the rocky nature of Jack and Daniel's friendship is what made it so much more interesting to me than Jack/Sam. These are two people who are different down to their very center, yet have a close friendship despite those differences. We never knew what was going to happen between those two.
                      So from this, you are in the camp of those who do *not* think that ship was responsible for the rocky patches in the friendship? That they were caused more by the differences between the two men in their backgrounds, attitudes, interests, approaches to life (the Universe and everything) and perspectives?

                      In this, we are in total agreement.


                      J.
                      "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


                      Comment


                        Originally posted by majorsal
                        These moments for me were failures, and they had absolutely nothing to do with ship ruining them. My fave character got shafted to me, but a number of things went into it that wasn't ship related. Poor choices and even poor writing, but not ship. At least to me.
                        It doesn't necessarily follow that because some people feel that ship effects some aspects of the show, it has to effect every aspect. Ship isn't responsible for the earthbound episodes. Or, I should say that I don't feel it was, because it comes down to there's no way to factually say one way or the other, or to prove one view is right or wrong.
                        I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                        Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                        Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                        Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                        http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                        Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                        Comment


                          OK, I've already grumbled about this on a couple of threads, but it's really getting under my skin. Would someone please explain to me the point of dehumanizing the characters to the point where you randomly mash their names together into one tacky, tasteless combination? McWeir? Sheyla? WTF happened to McKay/Weir or Shep/Teyla? You have Sam/Jack, Daniel/Janet, Jack/Daniel... why the hell take away the dignity of two INDIVIDUAL characters and try to force them into one? Are people really that incredibly lazy that they can't take the extra time out to type out some extra letters? It seems so... blatantly ridiculous. Like something a preteen would dream up (meaning no offense to any intelligent preteens out there). I keep picturing pink, fuzzy diaries all covered with sparkles and pink bedrooms all done up with pillows and stuffed animals and frills and canopies.

                          I'm not inclined to ship, myself, but when I see one of those horrible name combinations it makes me even LESS inclined to consider the possibility because I can't fathom degrading myself to that level and degrading the characters as well.

                          Granted, that's my opinion and I'm sure people who use that terminology don't see it the way I do, but I'm curious as to WHY people do it? And why only on Atlantis? Why not O'Carter and Fraison and Jackneill and Harrimond? What did the Atlanteans ever do to be treated like that?

                          Comment


                            The only reason I hate combining names is because all the combos end up sounding stupid.
                            I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                            Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                            Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                            Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                            http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                            Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Dani347
                              The only reason I hate combining names is because all the combos end up sounding stupid.
                              That's because they ARE stupid. In my opinion, anyway. They all sound so... tacky. And seriously, I can't get the fluffy pink sparkle-coated images out of my head whenever someone mentions one.

                              WHY? Why must people do that??

                              Comment


                                I think it is just something silly and, to some, fun. I don't think that there is anything malicious or dehumanizing intent behind it. Just something for people to play with. I tend not to use them myself, but it doesn't bug me. And I do sometimes giggle at McWeir.

                                Edited to say that I giggle at McWeir because it sounds like a breakfast sandwhich at McDonalds.
                                Last edited by Shipperahoy; 05 December 2004, 07:16 PM.

                                It was, is, and always will be GREEN

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