General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Dani347]

I don't understand why people aren't answering col ga's questions. I mean, if I was new to this, I'd be screwed (mainly because I'm an idiot ), so I can understand the potential confusion. I get unbelievably lost on shipper threads!

People have answered. And, quoted the questions in their responses.

[Petra]

Is this something that really belongs in ship discussion? It seems to me that all your asking for is the anti-ship viewpoint and that you don't care to hear from shippers.

Well,yeah.I *was*asking for the anti-shipper viewpoint.As I said I'm a shipper myself and I spend most of the time in shipper thread so I hear from shippers all the time.

Unless you're planning to refute the opinions/comments of the anti-shippers, you might get a better understanding of them if you read the anti-ship thread already mentioned and post your questions there. We DO have actual discussions over there, ya know.

I thought it was protected thread.That's why I posted here and not there.

And again, I know the thread length is a bit daunting, but if you actually read it then I think it should answer a lot of your questions. A lot of the ground you're trying to cover here has already been covered there. I'm not sure there's much reason to just repeat it all.

As I said I've read a lot of pages of Anti-shipper Thread but didn't have the time to read all of them.I said as well that it DID answer a lot of my questions but not those I posted here.And I'm new to this thread, how am I supposed to know what was covered and what wasn't?It's impossible to read whole 2 threads during 2-3 hours when I have Internet acces.

[Petra]

I don't understand why people aren't answering col ga's questions. I mean, if I was new to this, I'd be screwed (mainly because I'm an idiot ), so I can understand the potential confusion. I get unbelievably lost on shipper threads!

Hey, thanks for the defence. That's nice and I'm glad you are so tolerant but people have answered.And big thanks to all those who did.
Nevertheless I guess I'll do now what ShadowMaat so wants me to do and won't post here till I've read all the posts on both threads:anti-shipper and here.That's gonna take some time but hopefully my questions won't be so irritating after that.

[keshou]

And I don't have a problem with anyone's wanting more scenes between their favorite characters. Part of the problem is both RDA's schedule and the fact that they are shooting multiple episodes at the same time. The latter compounds the problems as it means that they can't have everyone in the scenes with RDA because they are filming other episodes.

I agree that scheduling *was* an issue in the last half of season 7. I think they thought Lost City was going to be the last episode, leading into Atlantis. They mapped it out and decided to foreshadow S/J getting together by including more shippy scenes and that cut into Jack's "quality" time with the other characters. I also thought the shippy scenes weren't especially well-written or placed, usually to Sam's detriment (IMO), rather than Jack's.

I guess there's no way to please everyone under these conditions. I certainly have no problem with Jack and Daniel, or Jack and Teal'c scenes; my favorite moment in Avatar, for example, was the little exchange between Jack and Teal'c at the end. OTOH, as a shipper, I wouldn't want to lose scenes between Sam and Jack, either. I fully understand that, offered a choice, you would go for Jack and Daniel scenes, and I would pick Jack and Sam.

I wouldn't want you to lose Sam and Jack scenes either (although I'd prefer the romance aspect be more subtext than text). I even thought New Order should have shown a little more concern on Jack's part about Sam. I do think, however, that it wasn't handled that well in the last half of season 7. They did seem to be getting out the ship 2x4 at times. There were also some awkward moments where Daniel and Teal'c were either shuffled out of the room so Sam and Jack could have a little 'ship (EvII), were seen as interrupters of the 'ship (LCI) or simply served as facilitators of the 'ship (Teal'c in Grace). I have to admit some of that kind of bugged me and I'm not even particularly against the S/J ship. (although again....subtext more than text *g*)

However, there have definitely been posts (some quite recent) that have argued that ship is the reason that Jack's and Daniel's friendship hit some rocky stretches. Yet, many of these same posters claim that Jack doesn't really care about Sam that way. This seems very inconsistent to me. It also is without any support in the show. From a logic standpoint, why should the fact that Jack may have romantic feelings toward Sam affect how he feels toward Daniel or Teal'c? He was Frank Cromwell's friend while he was married to Sara. People are capable of caring about a lot of different people, in different ways.

You'll never hear that from me. I *do* think Jack and Sam are supposed to "care" about each other although I don't personally buy the romantic chemistry. I certainly don't think that ship is the reason that Jack and Daniel's friendship hit a rough patch. I actually enjoyed that whole arc because it put that relationship out on the table, added some layers and provided some interesting insights into both characters. And yes, from a logic standpoint Jack having romantic feelings toward Sam shouldn't affect how he feels or acts towards Daniel or Teal'c. I *do* think it serves to put Jack and Sam's relationship in a different category than his relationship with Daniel and Teal'c. He loves Daniel and Teal'c, he's *in love* with Sam (to use the fanfic cliche). I think in some ways that elevates the S/J relationship above the others and you have to be careful to balance things out if you want the team and the other relationships to be as important as the S/J relationship. Balance and subtlety are the keys IMO.

More importantly--and I know from responses on this thread when this was mentioned before that this is a hot button for some people--I do think slash may have played a part (I do have to admit that why it's not OK to suggest that slash might impact the Jack-Daniel friendship, but all right to make ship the only villain, is beyond me). Several months before Evol aired--enough time to make cuts in the show--I saw posts on lists where I knew that at least one member of the creative staff lurked, that talked about how they were looking forward to Evol because it would be Jack and Daniel alone in the jungle, hot sweaty bodies and torn shirts. (And, no, the posts did not read as women who just wanted to ogle the men) Something like this could very lead them to edit the show differently.

It's crossed my mind that the whole slash thing might have played a part in how scenes were played, written, shot or edited. Especially after reading that interview with MS where he mentioned they changed the scene in Fallen because it was too much of a "drop the soap" moment. I don't know. It shouldn't because slash is just a fandom phenomenon. The millions of casual viewers at home don't even know what slash is. TPTB of some other shows seem to think it's all very amusing and even play into it (I've seen quotes from TPTB of Smallville to that effect) but I'm not sure TPTB of Stargate have exactly made that leap. *g*

I have no reason to believe, from anything I've seen on the show, that Jack does not see Daniel as a friend or that he does not care about him (I will admit that I've always felt that Jack and Teal'c were closer friends, because they have so much in common, but that did not mean that I did not think that Jack and Daniel were close friends as well) any longer. he was certainly concerned enough in Icon to lose his temper momentarily with Sam (just as he was concerned enough about Sam in Grace to be short with Daniel).

I think Jack and Daniel's friendship is interesting to me because they are so very different. They've had to work at their friendship and it's been a bit rocky at times but I don't doubt that they're very close friends. Jack and Teal'c have that "brothers in arms" thing going on and even though they are from totally different backgrounds, they are very much alike at their core. Teal'c and Daniel have a difficult and interesting relationship because of the whole Sha're thing. It's been rewarding to see their bond change and grow over the years. I don't like that whole "best friends" designation because I think the relationships are all very special and I don't like to rank them. I may have my favorites but that doesn't mean any of the others are less important in my mind.

BTW, Jack snarling in the elevator in Grace didn't bother me (actually I thought Daniel was a little annoyingly bouncy in that scene). Jack was frustrated, he does that sometimes. Just as Jack was frustruated in Icon and was short with Sam. Heck if these people were always nice to each other it would get a little boring!

[Jonisa]

OTOH, as a shipper, I wouldn't want to lose scenes between Sam and Jack, either. I fully understand that, offered a choice, you would go for Jack and Daniel scenes, and I would pick Jack and Sam.

The key for me, is balance. The relationship scenes (IMO) weren't balanced the second half of last year. The Jack and Sam relationship was emphasized, and as a result, the other relationships were neglected. There are only so many minutes in the show, after all. This was great for the shippers, and not so great for everyone else.

I wouldn't want the Jack and Sam relationship neglected either, and I don't think it has been so far this year. They've had one scene that could be interpreted as shippy (or not) and some other friendship scenes. In fact I think we've had a chance to see all the characters interact with each other so far this year and I hope it continues. If they decide to push ship again, as they did last year, I have concerns that the same thing will happen.

Is there a way to balance everything out and please both shippers and no-romos? I don't know. I'm pretty easy to please, as I don't mind a little ship, as long as we don't have it episode after episode where it overshadows everyone else, as happened (IMO) in Season 7. Other no-romos can't stand even the slightest hint of it. Some shippers will be happy with a fishing invitation (which would be fine with me), others want a make-out session(which for me would be...ugh).

With the fan groups so polarized and so many differing opinions inside each group about what they want to happen, the writers can't win. I hope they just stick to their story and tell it the way they want to, and aren't influenced too much by the letters, postcards, and faxes that are coming there way, no matter which group is sending them.

[keshou]

The key for me, is balance. The relationship scenes (IMO) weren't balanced the second half of last year. The Jack and Sam relationship was emphasized, and as a result, the other relationships were neglected. There are only so many minutes in the show, after all. This was great for the shippers, and not so great for everyone else.

I wouldn't want the Jack and Sam relationship neglected either, and I don't think it has been so far this year. They've had one scene that could be interpreted as shippy (or not) and some other friendship scenes. In fact I think we've had a chance to see all the characters interact with each other so far this year and I hope it continues. If they decide to push ship again, as they did last year, I have concerns that the same thing will happen.

Is there a way to balance everything out and please both shippers and no-romos? I don't know. I'm pretty easy to please, as I don't mind a little ship, as long as we don't have it episode after episode where it overshadows everyone else, as happened (IMO) in Season 7. Other no-romos can't stand even the slightest hint of it. Some shippers will be happy with a fishing invitation (which would be fine with me), others want a make-out session(which for me would be...ugh).

With the fan groups so polarized and so many differing opinions inside each group about what they want to happen, the writers can't win. I hope they just stick to their story and tell it the way they want to, and aren't influenced too much by the letters, postcards, and faxes that are coming there way, no matter which group is sending them.

We were posting at the same time and said some similar things. You said it a lot better than I did! Needless to say I agree with you, especially with your last paragraph. *g*

I've said a couple of times that I wish TPTB would just put all the mail in a corner of the room (unopened), ignore the dueling postcards and come up with a real vision of how they want to end the show. Then do it. I can live with that. Although I agree that a S/J make-out session would be "ugh" for me as well.

*crosses fingers for a fishing invitation*

[ShadowMaat]

Speaking personally, I'm getting tired of having to answer the same questions, I'm tired of covering the same territory repeatedly as folks "try and understand" where I'm coming from and why I can't tolerate ship. I don't like ship. Why is that such a problem?

You want to know why I don't like it? Fine. As I've said, both here here, on the anti-ship thread and elsewhere, I think that Sam and Jack have zero chemistry. Sure, they're friends, but I can't see it as anything more than that and every time the producers try and pull off a shippy scene it comes off looking forced. RDA in particular stops acting like Jack and starts acting like RDA trying to get through a tedious scene. Age isn't as much of a factor as interests: I don't think they share any, beyond the bare basics of the job. Opposites may attract, but not always and not in their case, not in MY opinion.

Pete may not be as smart as Sam, but few people are (with the exception of McKay). At least Pete doesn't act dumber than he really is. If there's one thing guaranteed to irritate me, it's a character who intentionally acts like an idiot. Jack's obtuseness was mildly amusing the first few years of the show, but TPTB seem to have latched onto the concept to exploit it for all it's worth and in the process they've made Jack dumber. In my opinion. I know not every character can be super-intelligent, but I would like for most of them to at least be reasonably intelligent and sometimes I really wonder about Jack. "Dumb jock" are not my idea of a good character.

As I've said, I wasn't always so intolerant of ship. I was willing to live and let live and I even enjoyed some of the subtler moments of ship in the earlier seasons. Unfortunately, "subtle" seems to have been struck from TPTB's dictionary. The more forceful they make ship (which I already don't see as being realistic), the more they try to shove it down our throats instead of leaving it up to the fans to decide, the more I hate it.

I'm watching Stargate for the PLOTS. I'm watching Stargate for the CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. If I wanted to watch characters moon over each other and entangle themselves in their complicated love lives, I'd watch a soap opera. I don't want to see it on Stargate becase, for me, it takes away from the REAL stories. Every moment spent on ship is a moment NOT spent on furthering the plot or exploring the characters. Some people consider ship to be another form of character development. I say it brings the show to a grinding halt every time.

I like Pete. I like what he does for Sam and the side of her he brings out whenever they're together. That I like because it's something different from what we usually see of her and because it's positive. Pete makes Sam HAPPY (generally speaking). S/J shippy stuff tends to make her look angsty and miserable and uncertain and incompetent. Maybe those are aspects of her character, too, but I think there are better ways to explore that part of her than by having her get all moopy over her boss.

I don't like Sam/Jack and the producers have seen to it that I will never tolerate them as a couple. Putting them together would, for me, undermine the entire purpose of the show. It would (and has, in a few eps) cease being about exploration of the universe and defense of the planet and it would be about the love lives and personal "interactions" of the characters. Particularly TWO of them. Ship, in my view, automatically elevates the importance of Jack and Sam above all other characters and that, to me, is grossly unfair. But that's also exactly what we're going to get because TPTB seem hellbent and determined to put Sam and Jack together. The views of anti-shippers, as has been so kindly pointed out by a variety of sources, don't matter. Ship is "canon", ship is gonna happen. If we don't like it, we should sit down and shut up or turn the dial because it's TPTB's show and THEY get to decide what THEY want to do with it.

Sorry, but if I don't like something, I'm going to say so.

I hope that answers your questions.

[Jace021903]

Sorry, but if I don't like something, I'm going to say so.

I hope that answers your questions.

Wow, I was going to post my own little essay about why I don't like the way the J/S ship has been handled, but you said it much better than I ever could.

Go you!

[Jace021903]

Hey, thanks for the defence. That's gonna take some time but hopefully my questions won't be so irritating after that.

Goodness, I don't think that your questions are irritating.

[keshou]

Wow, I was going to post my own little essay about why I don't like the way the J/S ship has been handled, but you said it much better than I ever could.

Go you!

Ditto from me. I probably don't feel as strongly as Shadow but as to my reasons for not liking S/J she has pretty much pegged them all.

I might also add that for me personally the whole sir/Carter aspect of their relationship makes it especially difficult for me to see them as romantic. I think of Jack as more of a mentor to Carter and as her commanding officer. Maybe if I saw all sorts of romantic chemistry there I could get past that but I don't.

.................

[GateGipsy]

(I do have to admit that why it's not OK to suggest that slash might impact the Jack-Daniel friendship, but all right to make ship the only villain, is beyond me).
J.

Hi DQ, I don't actually get what you're saying here. Slash is purely projection - I'm not a slasher in any show but there's one show - The Professionals - that I love watching and chatting about from a slash viewpoint because it is a lot of fun. However, there isn't any actual sexual or romantic relationship in the show between the two male leads nor is there in Stargate.

Slash is not at all the same as buddy-buddy relationships, and friendship moments. Slash is projection, whereas buddy moments are canon. Jack and Daniel are friends, and had a relationship with each other that predates the SGC, Sam and Tealc.

Talking about seeing Slash moments onscreen is part of the fun, although I don't do it in Stargate, I know that it is fun when I do it in the Professionals. And so what? It is just fun. I don't begudge others their enjoyment.

You can't really compare Slash and Ship. Ship and Buddy-friendship are both established parts of the show, that are definitely seen onscreen. Of course there is a lot of projecting too, but Slash is more like seeing Janet and Jonas ship - it is a projection, a bit of harmless fun. Like Sam and Mackay, a relationship I adore.

You might take seriously the sorts of slash discussions that you read, but that is just your interpretation. I suspect you don't take seriously all the ship discussions you read - I expect that it is a lot of fun for you and other shippers, and that you don't really believe anyone is sitting at home pining away to nothing at the prospect of Sam and Jack not getting together.

[GateGipsy]

Speaking personally, I'm getting tired of having to answer the same questions, I'm tired of covering the same territory repeatedly as folks "try and understand" where I'm coming from and why I can't tolerate ship. I don't like ship. Why is that such a problem?

I'm assuming that this is address to Col Aga, and I'm wondering why you're taking this tack - it sounds as if you're addressing someone who has repeatedly forced you over and over again to repeat yourself and justify your opinion.

If that is the case then please do feel free to let the mods know.

But I see that Col Aga is a fairly new member - since May and only 80 posts. I don't think they'll have come across that many of your previous posts either here or at Delphi.

You might be getting tired of saying the same thing over and over, but you'll have to get used to it. The fandom will always have fresh people arriving, people for whom this is all brand spanking new and who will inevitably ask the same questions. Maybe they shouldn't until they're read every single post on the site - and committed them all to memory. But that's hardly a fair expectation is it? As each new person comes along and sees what you say, they might just ask you to clarify on it - that's understandable, and I think fair.

Far better to respond to the person posting, on an individual basis. Just as you'd like to be if you were new to a forum.

[Gategirl12000]

Ok, this isn't a reply to anything, but I'm new to this thread and realitively new to Stargate in general, I've seen all of the episodes in seasons 1-6, and most of what's come out in season 8, but I have only seen a handful of season 7, and as a shipper, one question's been bugging me: lots of shippers on this site have an avatar of Sam and Jack kissing. Sam is in green BDUs and Jack is in blue BDUs. Does anybody know what episode that's from? I'd love to know. I leave with this thought: Sam+Jack=happily ever after. My question is why can't the writers grasp such a simple mathematical concept?

[TameFarrar]

Ok, this isn't a reply to anything, but I'm new to this thread and realitively new to Stargate in general, I've seen all of the episodes in seasons 1-6, and most of what's come out in season 8, but I have only seen a handful of season 7, and as a shipper, one question's been bugging me: lots of shippers on this site have an avatar of Sam and Jack kissing. Sam is in green BDUs and Jack is in blue BDUs. Does anybody know what episode that's from? I'd love to know. I leave with this thought: Sam+Jack=happily ever after. My question is why can't the writers grasp such a simple mathematical concept?

as far as I knew I was the only person on the forum to have this avatar......mmmm could you tell me who else has it?????
As far as what episode it is from....none....it was during the filming of Holiday and RDA and AT were goofing around and some photos were taken of it. and it has just been used as *promo* photos in articles and such.

[stargate barbie]

actually i think its just tame who has that avatar. she just posts so much that it seems like more than one person