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    Originally posted by Shipperahoy
    I happen to think that S/J ship can be done in a way that doesn't ruin the team. I don't think they did that in the latter half of season 7...
    You know, you just managed, in a sentence and a half, to say what I've been trying to say with all my long-winded posts this past week. Which, I might add, it seems I still haven't been able to convey clearly.

    Can J/S be written in such a way that it adds interest to the storyline without overtaking it? Can J/S be written in such a way that the rest of the relationships, and the overall team dynamic, are not negatively affected? Can J/S be written in such a way that neither Jack nor Sam come off looking needy or self-centered?

    Yes, yes, and yes. For proof, I refer you to seasons 1-7 1/2. The seasons that I saw J/S without having to be "told" it was there. The seasons that I enjoyed the notion that maybe there might be more between these two people than simple friendship and didn't need any goofy music in the background to "prove" to me that there was. The seasons that Jack and Daniel, and Jack and Teal'c, and Daniel and Sam, and Sam and Teal'c all cared about each other equally but in different ways.

    The seasons when I was a J/S shipper, no matter whose name I put first when I talk about them.

    The second half of Season Seven was bad, on so many levels, to me. I thought Sam looked pathetic. I still think Sam looks pathetic - though were I not spoiled for the second half of Season Eight, I wouldn't. I've adored her so far in Season Eight. I was actually starting to defend her again, against some others in my "new" fandom group who were attacking her actions in a way that I felt was totally unfair, biased and unwarranted. Based on what we've seen in Season Eight, ignoring what may or may not be coming up around the bend, I still think the complaints being made about Sam were wrong.

    But the second half of Season Eight is coming. And if it happens the way we've been told it's going to... how do I justify my defense of her? How do I justify my position that she's once again a character to admire? How do I reconcile my defense of what she is now with what may very well be my condemnation of what she might be about to become?

    Because if the second half of Season Eight shows up onscreen the way we've heard it might, and if she actually does what we've been told she's going to do... I'm sorry. But there is nothing admirable about that, and there is no justification for it. My personal opinion is, and will always be, that anyone would do what Sam might be about to do is nothing more than a self-centered, egotisitcal, arrogant, unfeeling witch. And that's not what I want to think about Sam.

    This is my main arguement against J/S right now. The other things - using RDA's limited screen time only to give Jack scenes with Sam, the lack of friendship between the characters at the end of Season Seven - are secondary to what I believe this entire story line is doing to Sam. We've seen her behaving in ways, and doing and saying things, that she would never have behaved, or done, or said, even just a year ago. And if the only way to bring Jack and Sam together at the end is to reduce her to a stereotypical charicature of what a woman is "supposed to be," then I'm sorry, but even that payoff - seeing Jack and Sam together - is never going to be enough for me.

    I wanted them together, no doubt about that. But I wanted Jack with *Sam* - not with some hollow, self-centered, uncaring "thing" that has taken her place. And if not accepting Sam's character as a necessary casualty to the "ship" means that I was never a "real" shipper, then so be it.
    ~bri~


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      Well even AT has said that she fought with RCC about some of the ship related stuff and how it was portrayed and told him that she didn't think that Sam would do what they were having her do. Unfortunatley the actors don't get final say.

      I do have to say that, although I didn't agree with a lot of what went on in the latter half of season 7 and I did think that it cast Sam in somewhat of a bad light, I don't see her as hollow, self-serving, or uncaring. I think the character made some bad decisions but she's still redeemable to me. Even during season 7 I still loved the character even while cringing at some of the story lines. Of course, I'm not as bugged by her having feeling for her commanding officer as some people are. I'm of the school of thought that you can't help who you care for. In an ideal scenario she would have quit SG-1 but this is t.v. land and that wouldn't really work with the show so I'm more liable to give them some artistic license. For me, I haven't seen her derelict in her duties or her job performance being affected by her feelings for Jack and vice versa so it doesn't bug me.

      It was, is, and always will be GREEN

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        Originally posted by ShadowMaat
        Considering that one of the questions asked at Gatecon was "Which Muppet do you think would be the best replacement for Jack?" I really don't think that ship-related questions could be any "fluffier". It's more a question of tact. I've kinda regretted my Pete question since asking it. Especially since I was the only one who even mentioned ship in any context. Well, except when Chris asked the audience for help on terminology... hehe
        ok shadow, i'm gonna need to know what the answer to that muppet question was.

        Comment


          Originally posted by stargate barbie
          ok shadow, i'm gonna need to know what the answer to that muppet question was.
          Let's see if I can drag this from memory...
          Amanda said it had to be Oscar the Grouch, since he was most like Jack.
          Michael said he always pictured Jack being more like Beaker.
          Chris said Miss Piggy 'cause then Teal'c could finally get some bacon. Then he apologized. "I can't believe I said that." hehe

          Comment


            i do think that TPTB can write ship into the show very well, and not have it distract too much from the rest of the show. i do think that they can integrate it almost seemlessly into the show, and have it make a lot of sense. and i do think that they have managed that for most of the last seven years. but not all of it. i think they over did it a lot in the second part of season seven. if they wanted all of that to happen in that season they could have spread it out a tad more throughout it, instead of cramming it into a few episodes and making it feel as though the show was becoming about the personal life of samantha carter instead of the lives of SG-1 and a whole lot of sci fi kick bum action.
            i hope they don't do the same thing in any following seasons.
            but i'm still a j/s shipper. but i'm also a s/t friendshipper. and a s/d friendshipper. and so on...
            that doesn't mean i want entire episodes devoted to it, as i'm sure many other shippers feel too. i want maybe a few minutes per episode devoted to the various relationship developments going on in the whole team. i just want those developments to happen in very different ways. i'd also like to see that big giant wormholey thing happen every once in a while.
            is that too much to ask!!!! (and i want to see luke, and siler, and the big wrench more too) *theres no pouty face here*

            Comment


              I thought his behaviour was disgraceful. How dare he not appear to care about someone on his team being missing. How dare he not even show an interest in Daniel's suggestion for a search plan. But what does his lack of commitment to rescuing Sam have to do with ship?

              I'm not sure whether you are saying this seriously or not. Because the complaints in the posts on GW and elsewhere were not that he didn't appear to care about Sam's being missing, but that he cared too much--and he was being rude to poor Daniel as a result. Let's point out that Jack is often curt and less than tactful, especially when he's concerned, worried, frustrated, upset or angry. Nothing new here (and I appear to have missed the complaints from the same posters that Jack was rude to Sam in "Icon".)

              Jack was short with Daniel and wasn't in the mood for Daniel's being so relentlessly upbeat. That's very human: there are times when you are down and you want cheering up; there are times when you are frustrated and really want to hit something, and you are in no mood for someone to try to be Little Mary Sunshine. The complaints seemed to be ignoring what we had seen of Jack's personality for seven years.

              Even more, why should he have interest in Daniel's plan? He thought it was a bad plan, and he had legitimate objections. He had just arrived on the base after being told that Sam had been missing for over 18 hours. He had no idea what had been tried before he got there, or what had not yet been tried. He had no reason to be enthusiastic about a plan that had a 1 in 1 million chance of success and that would just waste time and effort--unless it was their last resort, and he didn't know whether it was or not at that point. He hadn't even been briefed.


              J.
              "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


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                Originally posted by Gategrrl
                Threats? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! How could a person who dislikes/despises the J&S ship threaten someone else on a well-organized forum such as this? Boggles the mind, it does. I think with mods on patrol like Madeleine and Gypsy and Majorclangor, that's not likely to happen.

                I probably shouldn't bother, but did you read Brihana's posts where she was talking about making the lives of shippers miserable if S/J get together? I was referring to that. And we don't have to put the forum on ignore, just certain posters.


                J.
                "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


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                  That just bemuses me. If he thinks there's something there (as opposed to thinking there's a tendency among the writers to write shippy scenes, which is another possible interpretation of that), then why does he put emotion and spirit into his scenes with Daniel, Harry Maybourne or Hammond and not with Sam? It's a puzzle.

                  This is another one of those "IMO" moments that fandom is so famous for, right?


                  J.
                  "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


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                    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                    I'm not sure whether you are saying this seriously or not.
                    Seriously.


                    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                    Because the complaints in the posts on GW and elsewhere were not that he didn't appear to care about Sam's being missing, but that he cared too much
                    I didn't make those complaints.

                    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                    He had no reason to be enthusiastic about a plan that had a 1 in 1 million chance of success and that would just waste time and effort.
                    It was the only plan they had, and no better or worse than the plan that found Sam and him in Solitudes, or the plan that SG-1 *hoped* the SGC were busy formulating in Memento. He didn't discuss it with Daniel, make suggestions for another way to find her, ask Daniel to come up with a better idea, anything. He seemed pretty useless, and I don't buy "He's only being useless cos he's so upset" about Jack O'Neill who's seen Sam in danger before, who's thought Earth was about to be destroyed before, who's been tortured and killed, all without ever being useless. He was a git. One more reason for me to loathe Grace.

                    Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                    I appear to have missed the complaints from the same posters that Jack was rude to Sam in "Icon".
                    Bear in mind that a large number of people (possibly even a majority) haven't yet seen Icon...

                    Madeleine

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                      Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                      I probably shouldn't bother, but did you read Brihana's posts where she was talking about making the lives of shippers miserable if S/J get together? I was referring to that. And we don't have to put the forum on ignore, just certain posters.


                      J.
                      I read it very carefully. I didn't see it as a threat. I assumed she was talking about the fact that she, people like her, and perhaps me, might end up posting in the ep threads about how [insert negative adjectives] the ship was last night and how grim it made the ep for us... and some shippers getting upset to a small or not-so-small degree by our negativity. (And, of course, the reverse if S/J doesn't come to pass, some folk getting ratty about shipper negativity if Sam marries Pete in 8.20).

                      I assumed she was talking also about the small handful of looneys across the board of the fandom who think it a laugh to pop into the S/J Shipper thread and say that S/J sux and why don't you shippers go and watch soaps, or post on OS that S/J is canon and anyone who doesn't like it is a slasher and delusional. I think she suspects that if a resolution is given on the show then either or more likely both will be more likely than it is now.

                      I don't like what she said, and I hope she's wrong, but me not liking it might not be enough for it not to be true

                      Brihana25, if you want to clarify or correct me then please do.
                      Last edited by Madeleine; 30 August 2004, 04:35 PM.

                      Madeleine

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                        Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                        This is another one of those "IMO" moments that fandom is so famous for, right?


                        J.
                        Absolutely Sorry, I tend to forget I ought to do that. You might want to assume the same about my reply to your q about how I saw Jack in Grace too - Ta!

                        Madeleine

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                          Originally posted by Dani347
                          Hmm, if RDA isn't on board for season 9 will that end the ship? Or, will they retire Jack, and *shudder* have a wedding at the end of this season so Jack can be an off screen house husband? I wouldn't put it past them
                          That's what I want - if Jack isn't on board for a season 9, let him retire and be with Sam. It could/would be off-screen, and the anti shippers wouldn't have to see it, and the shippers would know they're together. If Jack made an occasional appearance, though, that would be great.

                          Sally
                          sally

                          sigpic

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                            Oh, but not a wedding- as amusing as I can imagine it in my head (be it with Sam/Pete or Sam/Jack) I don't think I would be able to take a wedding. Yeah, sure if RDA's not coming back for Season 9 let him retire, just don't throw a bunch of "mushy" probably cheesily written stuff in my face and I'll be fine. I would rather see him running the Alpha site or something like that, but retiring wouldn't be too terrible I guess.
                            Why yes, I am aware that I am too sexy for my cat
                            RIP Stargate SG-1: The iris may be closed, but the gate will always be spinning, lighting the chevrons in my heart

                            And to the Sci Fi Channel...

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                              Originally posted by NightGloom
                              Oh, but not a wedding- as amusing as I can imagine it in my head (be it with Sam/Pete or Sam/Jack) I don't think I would be able to take a wedding. Yeah, sure if RDA's not coming back for Season 9 let him retire, just don't throw a bunch of "mushy" probably cheesily written stuff in my face and I'll be fine. I would rather see him running the Alpha site or something like that, but retiring wouldn't be too terrible I guess.
                              I'd love a wedding, but I think the chances on me getting cloned by Thor is higher than me seeing an S/J wedding at the end. Just bring them together and I'll be happy.

                              Sally
                              sally

                              sigpic

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by NightGloom
                                Oh, but not a wedding- as amusing as I can imagine it in my head (be it with Sam/Pete or Sam/Jack) I don't think I would be able to take a wedding. Yeah, sure if RDA's not coming back for Season 9 let him retire, just don't throw a bunch of "mushy" probably cheesily written stuff in my face and I'll be fine. I would rather see him running the Alpha site or something like that, but retiring wouldn't be too terrible I guess.
                                on-screen television weddings make baby jesus cry!

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