General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[ShadowMaat]

Moi?? I am humbleness personified. Ask anyone. Er... then again, don't. Just take my word for it.

I think David owes me. You could ask him. He'll tell you what a quiet, sweet, shy little humble thing I am.

And shippyness. Sorry, but I still don't think it has any place on a show like Stargate. Not as a plot substitute, anyway. And not as "filler" for character development, either.

[marimba26]

Au contraire. I was booed when I told Amanda that not everyone hated Pete. Cheered, too, but there were definitely a lot of boos mixed in. And then there was the girl in the "I hate Pete" t-shirt... *shudder* I pray to all the gods I know that Amanda never saw that.

Well, *I* certainly didn't boo you, nor would I boo anyone who likes Pete (though I do not), I find booing rude. As for the shirt, I thought the same thing--YIKES! I had my own shirt but it was a little more subtle and had nothing to do with Pete (you'll have to PM me for the text ). I'm just saying that I thought the crowd was well-behaved in general--I've heard and read loads of stories from other cons that were not nearly as nice. Overall, I had a positive experience, even meeting anti-shippers such as yourself because no matter how opposite our opinions are when it comes to the ship, we have one thing in common. We love Stargate SG-1 or we wouldn't be having this convo.

But I digress. I'm sick to death of 'ship in ANY form and of all the nasty feelings it's causing in fandom. With all due respect to TPTB sometimes they can be as tactless as the fans themselves and their insistence on building up the animosity in fandom by dragging things out and dragging things out and dumping on the ship then taking it all away... It isn't fun anymore. It never really was, but now it's more annoying than anything else. And tedious. And pathetic. One way or the other, JUST BLOODY CHOOSE ALREADY!!! It isn't fair to the fans and it isn't fair to the characters. All this vacillating of Sam's makes her, in MY eyes, look weak and indecisive. CHOOSE someone! ANYONE! Hell, choose Poochinski if you gotta, but please, for the love of fluffy puppies, CAN WE GET BACK TO THE REAL STORIES NOW??

*sigh* Wasting my breath, I know...

I think we all want them to get this over with and choose--of course, our preferences for the outcome of that choice are different. I think I speak for several of the shippers I know when I say that it's time for a resolution to this!

Though I don't like Pete and I never will, the back and forth is VERY old! Either she loves Jack or she loves Pete but pick one. It DOES make her look indecisive and as a BIG fan of *kick-a$$ Sam* (who we haven't seen very much of in a while), I don't like the arc. Why drag it out other than to keep everyone talking? A woman who is supposed to be as independent as she is would be able to make a decision for one or the other or neither if she so desired. I think you have a point that the PTB are taking a big gamble on this by sitting the fence and let's hope that it doesn't drag a great show (and yes, I still think it's a great show) down with it!

[stargate barbie]

you're so vain you probably think this thread is about you.

i don't think ship damages a show like stargate if its done right, and only if it does not even come close to taking over the show.

[ShadowMaat]

you're so vain you probably think this thread is about you.

But it IS about me! I can't help that, anyway...

And yeah, the major vital part is handling ship well. TPTB can't and everything they do only makes things worse, IMO. If the spoilers about Jack in Threads is true... that's just sad... sad and pathetic... And so incredibly plot devicey I could scream!!

[TameFarrar]

Whoops. What a horrible mistake to make, confusing Pete and Jack. Thanks for the catch.

If I may be permitted to quote myself from what I said in my Sulky Thread:


I stand by that. And I agree with Tame and various others that TPTB have done a shoddy job of handling ship. It's a very fine line to walk, and they're stumbling through it like drunk elephants in a china shop.

I just HAD to quote you agreeing with me

But seriously, I know you would prefer to not have ANY ship and I definitely prefer SOME ship...so I do wish they (TPTB) hadn't decided to go off the deep end with this...and I really wish I understood what made them think the show even needed it ??????? to THIS extreme

[Liebestraume]

Thanks to stargate barbie and ShadowMaat for taking my question. I'll try to keep my follow-up brief.

... especially as a show of respect to certain actors in attendence who clearly seem to like the character. considering the apparent theme of certain negative letters directed at certain people, ...

Attacking Amanda for something her character did is just WRONG in my book.

Agreed. Yet "attacking" a fictional character that Amanda likes is entirely different from attacking Amanda. One could say that being truthful with TPTB is a show of respect, since it's obviously true they are big enough to take it.

... And while Pete may be a fictional character, the actor playing him and the actors who act with him are quite real and they all have feelings. ...

An actor should know better than anyone else that he is not the character that he portrays. Perhaps he even gives his audience the credit of understanding the difference; if so, he'd know the negativity is not direct at him personally.

i just think that its one thing to say it on an online forum, but at a public convention its a smidge too much negativity for my tastes.

"Love" is more generally accepted because it is a positive emotion.
"Hate" is rather definitely negative and when you're dealing with real live people, for instance, it's considered bad manners to pile on the negativity.

But we are not dealing with live people -- which is rather the point -- just some ideas personafied by fictional characters. To this end, any emotion, be it positive or negative, is equally subjective. Personally I'd never wear anything with "I Love/Hate so-and-so" blazoned across the front, but I don't see why anyone else shouldn't if he so chose.

[kiwigater]

But it IS about me! I can't help that, anyway...

And yeah, the major vital part is handling ship well. TPTB can't and everything they do only makes things worse, IMO. If the spoilers about Jack in Threads is true... that's just sad... sad and pathetic... And so incredibly plot devicey I could scream!!

*envisions locking Shadow and SG writers in a room a la Zero Hour, resulting in browbeating of writers into submission...*
For some reason this vision amused me greatly!
*insert Jack-Waaaalter like image of writers attempting to get sentence out, with Shadow going NO! writer "But....., Shadow... NO!!*

Clearly when the ship sides are agreeing TPTB should be listening...

[TameFarrar]

Moi?? I am humbleness personified. Ask anyone. Er... then again, don't. Just take my word for it.

ROFLMAOOOOOO

I think David owes me. You could ask him. He'll tell you what a quiet, sweet, shy little humble thing I am.

Stop...you are killing me....my stomach hurts from laughing so much

And shippyness. Sorry, but I still don't think it has any place on a show like Stargate. Not as a plot substitute, anyway. And not as "filler" for character development, either.

well like you have said many, many times we all have our opinions and desires and thank goodness we all differ somewhat or else this would all be boring and we would all be talking to ourselves

[ShadowMaat]

But seriously, I know you would prefer to not have ANY ship and I definitely prefer SOME ship...

The thing is, I wasn't ALWAYS so rabidly anti-ship. I used to enjoy some of the subtle moments and while I never really wanted to see them together, I wasn't exactly against it, either. But TPTB have ruined all that for me. Their gross mishandling of the situation (my opinion) has turned me into a rabid anti-shipper who cringes every time Jack and Sam are in the same scene.

Lieb- we'll have to agree to disagree once again. I'm not interested in debating the point.

[marimba26]

I wasn't saying the ship was a problem with the show (like I said, I was a shipper for the show) I was just saying that just because a show lasts a long time doesn't mean it's good. I don't think a show that lasts 9 years is better than a show that lasts 4 years. The 9 year show can be complete crap and the 4 year one could be one of the best shows on tv. So, in answer to the original question, to repeat, I don't care how many shows lasted how long because of ship. If I think a show is crap, and someone tells me, "Yeah, but it lasted 28 years" I'll just answer "28 years of crap."

And on that point, we agree But I don't think Stargate is crap--I think it's still about the best show on TV at the moment! I know it's been around eight years but I am enjoying this season as much as I enjoyed the early seasons. In some ways, I'd say my enjoyment has increased because the characters have grown over time in a way that VERY few television characters are ever allowed to.

And, for the love of everything, good producers and writers should be able to keep a show on, give the characters human traits, flaws, keep it interesting, make them seem real, and every other thing without having to have ship. Ship shouldn't be the only thing that achieves these goals. People will disagree or not, depending on how they viewed the show (and wasn't it a great thing when people could see different things) but to me, they managed to have all of the things that make a show great and give the characters every aspect a character needs for 3 whole years without having to have ship.

This is why I brought up Law & Order--no ship per se but it's been on a VERY long time (13 or 14 years now--I've lost count and I didn't watch from the very beginning).

I think the characters have developed wonderfully since season 3. Take Daniel, he has grown so much in the past four years. He is so much more temperate now than he was at the beginning--wiser IMHO. He's still a conscience but a one that is REALISTIC. I think Daniel went from a geeky archaeologist to quite the diplomat. He's also more willing to take action now and I like that. His relationships have also helped to develop his character--I think the death of his wife and the taking of Sarah by Osiris have changed him as a character quite a bit. I thought it was badly done that we didn't get to see much of anything about Sarah's rescue in Chimera but that's another thread, I just thought it would have been interesting.

As for Jack, I think loving someone again has actually helped his development as a character quite a bit. Jack has a big heart or he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice himself over and over again for the greater good. I think loving someone helped him find that heart again after Charlie's death--love is about selflessness. I know this is shippy but this IS the ship discussion thread so here goes--It touches me EVERY time I watch him volunteer to sacrifice himself in Divide and Conquer (and I have seen the ep a LOT of times). I'm not normally a person who goes in for the tearjerker stuff but this touches me--he is willing to sacrifice himself but not because he's suicidal. He does it out of love (for Sam, for humanity, take your pick). And we see the same thing again in Lost City--he knows he's probably going to die but he does it anyway. So IMHO, the lonely man with suicidal tendencies opened his heart again and rediscovered a good man who puts the greater good above himself when it's on the line--THAT'S character development! And I think he did it because he has had the chance to love again--whether that love is requited in the end remains to be seen but it has made him a better man IMHO.

I have lots to say about the development of Sam and Teal'c since season 7 but I think I've made my point. Suffice it to say that I feel they have come a long way since then as well.

As for the ship--I do not now, nor have I EVER wanted it to take over the show. This show has ALWAYS been about good stories about a TEAM for me. I just happen to think that the ship gives those stories and those characters an added dimension. If no ship is good, then I guess Daniel shouldn't have had relationships either. Just MHO.

[marimba26]

prime example. space above and beyond. it only lasted one year, and was so much better than a lot of shows that have gone on for many years longer than that.

I thought Space Above and Beyond was wonderful! I finally had the chance to watch it recently and I agree that it was short but Oh, So Sweet! Great show--AND it had a ship of sorts!

[TameFarrar]

The thing is, I wasn't ALWAYS so rabidly anti-ship. I used to enjoy some of the subtle moments and while I never really wanted to see them together, I wasn't exactly against it, either. But TPTB have ruined all that for me. Their gross mishandling of the situation (my opinion) has turned me into a rabid anti-shipper who cringes every time Jack and Sam are in the same scene.

Lieb- we'll have to agree to disagree once again. I'm not interested in debating the point.

You know what... I can definitely see where you are coming from on this...
I never really thought about *Ship* being an issue until this season. I was content to have Sam & Jack have small subtle moments and in the end Sam & Jack ...go fishing and I could imagine what I wanted.
But for some reason TPTB decided to make SAM EVERYONE'S girl WHILE still wanting Jack...that made no sense to me and has really MADE the *Ship* an issue for everyone. So I come right back to my original thought TPTB have NOT handled it well at all.

I still want Sam & Jack together.. but I know it is going to be a lot different than what Iever dreamed and probably not as good as it could have been

[Liebestraume]

Lieb- we'll have to agree to disagree once again. I'm not interested in debating the point.

On that we agree, as I wasn't intending on a debate either. I only spoke up lest anyone cowered into thinking "I can't say such-and-such." Thanks for lending your perspective.

[marimba26]

Romance does seem to be a tried and true method for t.v. series. There are a few good shows out there without romance in it but they seem to be few and far between. I personally like a little romance in my t.v. shows. I'm a love-a-holic what can I say. I'm more likely to tune into a show if there's a good romantic pairing. But that's just me. I enjoyed the subtle UST of the earlier seasons, though,

I like a bit of romance in some shows too. Not all, but some--it adds something if done well (and very few are done well these days)

and I think the introduction of significant others as a plot point to the ship is a wee bit too much As the Stargate Turns for me. I'm not a big fan of angst. I do wish that the spoilers for this episode hadn't been released so far in advance. Ship is a hot topic and tempers run high. It is depressing to me that we had to shut down the Thread thread (say that 5 times fast),

I am TOTALLY in agreement with you here! I wish they had lef the SO thing with Chimera--oh wait, I wish Chimera had NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL!!!!! I was okay with the subtle UST but Chimera brought it all kicking and screaming to the front and while I really liked Grace, I still can't see how they got Chimera from that. They could have left it at Grace. Showed us Sam's insecurities and that she's unsure of Jack, etc. I also think they should have explored the alien aspect of Grace A LOT more. What happened to the alien? Who/what was it? Was Grace in Sam's mind or a product of the alien? I have so many unanswered questions about this ep and when i read that Chimera would be the "continuation" of that ep, I hoped that my questions would be answered but alas, no, it wasn't to be... Then to compound the error, they pushed the Daniel/Sarah plot to the back--it should have been it's own ep (maybe they could have replaced one of the other eps with it). And don't get me started why they wasted almost a whole ep on introducing a new SO and Jonas only got ONE ep this season!!!!!!!!!!!!

but I am sincerely glad that Dani ressurected this thread so that the topic can be discussed maturely. So thanks to Dani.

Yes, thank you Dani, it's nice to be able to have an intelligent discussion!

[Dani347]

Well, I've always been rabidly anti-JS ship (the idea of them together is something I'll never get behind) but at least before I didn't see it.