General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Dani347]

I think Sam & Daniel have a lovely friend/sibling relationship. Don't see any romantic spark, never have. Kind of icks me out to think of it.

Well, I never saw anything romantic between them either, although I know some people do. However, I never saw anything overwhelmingly sibling-like either. I see them as nothing but very close friends.

[Madeleine]

To me the idea of Sam and Daniel is ick-worth because their relationship very much reminds me of my relationship with my sister.

I don't see the romantic chemistry between them that I know some do, but I never get what people are talking about when they say 'sibling-like' about Daniel and Sam. As far as my experience goes, sibling relationships have three things that are common to all sibling relationships and set them apart from other relationships:

1) Reminiscing about a shared childhood... not applicable here.

2) Arguing about who is hosting the family Christmas this year... well that might have happened in a fic somewhere I s'pose.

3) Not being allowed to do the un-PG stuff together in case the kids are born with genetic abnormalities... again, not applicable.

Okay, that was me being a bit facetious, but my point is genuine. I was friends with Mr W for ages before we got together, and I was as close to him as I was to my sisters. I'm trying to work out the difference between the relationship we had prior to dating, and a 'sibling-like' relationship between two unrelated people who met as adults and are very close friends. What is the difference between a 'not-sibling-like' relationship between two adults who begin their relationship by getting to be friends without any of the un-PG stuff and later decide to marry, and a 'sibling-like' relationship between non-siblings that is so sibling-like that dating is not possible?

If the decision in s4 to inject ship had been slightly different, and had instead made D/S ship the 'official' one rather than J/S, I might have still found it dull and cheesy depending on how it had been written, but I doubt there would be the 'ick' factor for me. Sam and Daniel are equals. He doesn't shut up and do as he's told by her, and she doesn't shut up and let him deride her - there's none of the rather creepy subservience issues that S/J brings up.

I reckon I could tolerate D/S ship fine. My guess is that I wouldn't particularly care for it, but I wouldn't dislike it, and as Sam could fall in love with Daniel without all the Great Big Issues that the show itself has put in the way of S & J, she wouldn't have to turn into a pale shadow of herself in order to get shippy. Anyway MS is such a great actor that I reckon he could make me believe in Daniel / Sam ship, *if* he chose to play it.

[keshou]

What is the difference between a 'not-sibling-like' relationship between two adults who begin their relationship by getting to be friends without any of the un-PG stuff and later decide to marry, and a 'sibling-like' relationship between non-siblings that is so sibling-like that dating is not possible?

Daniel has never had much of a family and Sam doesn't seem to be close to her real-life brother. Sibling-like (to me) implies a certain closeness and connection that can't be broken by distance or time or even strong disagreements. Daniel and Sam have a strong friendship but I think they also have a sibling-like rivalry for Jack's approval (even though probably neither would admit it) and an intellectual rivalry as well.

Or maybe I'm just swayed by recently watching AT's Beyond the Gate feature/Director's Series on dvd wherein AT mentions how close the cast is (CJ, RDA and MS being like her "brothers") and even though they have their "sibling rivalries" they all love and support each other. I guess that's how I see SG-1 as well.

[bcmilco]

I said 'ick-worthy' because I couldn't really think of any other way to put it, distasteful seemed too strong a wording. Maybe highly improbable would be better

I find it hard to believe because of the way the characters interact. Their interactions remind me of both relationship that mentioned above at different times, and when I see those parallels I can't help but think of them as psudo-brother/sister.

[sgeureka]

I think this is a better place to ask instead of opening another new thread:

I remember when Chimera aired, several/many posts said like "This episode shouldn't have been all about ship because that's not SG." On the other hand, it is not unusual to read that the latter half of S7 had ship in almost each ep, which annoyed some people to no end.

Now, if TPTB decide to include ship of any kind in SG, there's not much we can do to increase the ship level or to get rid of it completely, depending of what we prefer. But would you prefer ship to be in only one or two episodes or would you rather have it spread out over the season in smaller doses? I mean, like, should the yearly TPTB ship dose be all in one ep, or rather about 1/20 in each of the 20 eps (or similar splittings)?

I can't say beforehand what ship scenes I'll like, or if I'll even see any ship at all. I just know that there are a few SG topics I'm not really interested in (Unas, Jaffa stories, stand-alone eps with no consequences for future eps,...) and I prefer them to be all packed up nicely so that I can ignore them and continue with my life. Or maybe I wouldn't even notice that episodes were about such topics if they were reduced to a minimum per ep.

[ShadowMaat]

It isn't just the quantity of ship that I find irritating, it's the quality as well. Having ship all over the place in lots of eps is bad enough, but making it so bloody blatant that I, for one, can't possibly ignore it... I've said it a million times, but what TPTB need to do is re-learn the meaning of the word SUBTLE. I think the show would be better if there were only light touches of ship, scattered throughout the season. LIGHT touches, not this "beating fans over the head with a cement broomstick" stuff that I feel we've been subjected to this past season. And no, IMO, ship should NEVER be the focus of an ep, it should be an accent and ideally, fans should be able to choose to ignore it, if they wish.

[yabyumpan]

Now, Jack understands that Sam is far smarter than he is, but I still don't get the feeling that he treats her as an equal. He tends to look down upon her intelligence and only really seems to appreciate it at all when it comes in handy for whatever crisis they're facing... and then only for as long as it takes to solve the crisis and gods forbid she should try explaining anything to him. I personally do not feel that he gives her the respect that she deserves and that his "mentality" regarding their social ranking is very unequal. I don't think he will ever admit to it, either, and as long as he doesn't, I think that the two of them would be an unsuitable match.

Interesting, I really, really don't like the S/J ship either but for the opposite reason you give above. I don't think that Sam respects Jack, or at least not Jack's intelligence. It seems to me that she 'gets off' on feeling intellectually superior to him and enjoys seeing him humiliated. 'Learning Curve' is an obvious case in point (although there are many others, more subtle), when the girl says something about Jack not being as smart as Sam, Sam just stood there and smirked while Jack looked embarresed and humiliated. It seems to me that if she really 'lurved' and respected him she would have said something like " but he's clever in other ways". I was also appalled by her behavior in 'Fragile Balence' when she seemed to be using the situation as a way of getting one up on him. The poor guy at that point didn't know if he was going to be stuck inside a 15 years old body for good but Sam just used it as an opportunity to try to humiliate him again, IMO, (I thought Sam's behavior was appaling thoughout that episode. I don't know what TPTB where going for but from my point of view, they made her look bad from pretty much every angle)
This is why I don't see S/J, I can't see that Jack would want to be with someone who considers herself superior to him and I don't see why Sam would want to be be with someone she feels superior to. There are lots of other reasons why I find S/J objectionable -thre 'no chemistry' thing, the regs (I personally don't care one way or another about military regs but it's been highlighted so often on the show that they should at least be consistant and not make Sam and Jack come across as disrespectful), the problem it causes for 'The Team', the divisions in fandom, the many problems it causes for the character of Sam Carter...... I think on balance, the S/J ship causes far more problems than is worth it.

[Dani347]

If there has to be ship, I'd want it the way it was in the first three seasons. That way, when people talk about how shippy this or that episode was, I had the luxury of wondering what they were seeing, because there was no ship on my tv. So, I want it played in a way that as far as I'm concerned it just isn't there, and anyone else can see it to their hearts content.

Of course now, since they've shoved it in my face so much, it wouldn't matter how subtle it was, I'd always be thinking that the scenes between Jack and Sam are supposed to have some shippy undertones. Ignorance was bliss and they took it from me.

[ShadowMaat]

Just as a random comment (and to bring this discussion back to the fore again), I thought of another show where I'm a bit of a shipper: Monk. Specifically, Sharona and Lt. Disher. They're an impossible match and I know they'd never actually work as a couple and I'd probably be unhappy if the DID end up together, but the sniping back and forth between them and the interplay and sly remarks and all is lots of fun to watch. I figure we're due to see them at least kiss... and then have Sharona be all horrified and disgusted by it.

Still like Sam and Pete as a couple, even though I know they'll never wind up together. Maybe Sam and Luke instead...

[bcmilco]

Just as a random comment (and to bring this discussion back to the fore again), I thought of another show where I'm a bit of a shipper: Monk. Specifically, Sharona and Lt. Disher. They're an impossible match and I know they'd never actually work as a couple and I'd probably be unhappy if the DID end up together, but the sniping back and forth between them and the interplay and sly remarks and all is lots of fun to watch. I figure we're due to see them at least kiss... and then have Sharona be all horrified and disgusted by it.

Haven't seen a lot of Monk, but from what I have seen I thought they were trying to play Monk and Sharona as a pair. Since I haven't seen much of the show I'm not really sure what I think of them together, but that's just the feeling I get when I watch it.

[ShadowMaat]

Haven't seen a lot of Monk, but from what I have seen I thought they were trying to play Monk and Sharona as a pair. Since I haven't seen much of the show I'm not really sure what I think of them together, but that's just the feeling I get when I watch it.

Oh I hope not. That would be utterly repulsive on too many levels to count. Even worse than Sam/Jack, IMO. If that gives you any indication.

[Dani347]

I've never seen Monk and Sharona as a pair. 1. He's still in love with Trudy. 2. If they ever had one date, Sharona would kill him. She's his friend, but no way would she put up with his quirks on what's supposed to be a date. 3. The episode where they pretended to be married seemed to answer just what it would be like, and it wasn't a pretty picture.

Now, Sharona and Disher are a whole different matter. You can just tell Disher has a thing for her. It's cute. And, Sharona likes bantering with him.

*See, I do have romance in me*

[bcmilco]

Like I said I haven't seen that many episodes, that was just the impression I got from the few I've seen. *shrugs*

As for them being a couple I didn't say I thought they'd be "good" together.

[marimba26]

[snip]
LIGHT touches, not this "beating fans over the head with a cement broomstick" stuff that I feel we've been subjected to this past season. And no, IMO, ship should NEVER be the focus of an ep, it should be an accent and ideally, fans should be able to choose to ignore it, if they wish.

I can't resist...
If the touch gets any lighter, it will be nonexistant! It's not like they're making out in the broom closet or something! (speaking of brooms...)

NO, ship should NEVER be the focus of an entire episode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But as a video maker, I can tell you, it's pretty light already. I probably have about an hour of USABLE footage for vids out of approx 160 eps. and when I use the word usable, I'm talking about looks and everything. So out of approx 115 hours of footage, you get a whole whopping hour of ship! Sorry, just couldn't control the snark! If you time that compared to usable Pete footage (if I wanted to make vids of Pete), he's got about 15 minutes. That's a good bit by comparison to the J/S ship. Most of the J/S scenes are just a few seconds long or are intertwined with other characters--they're rarely alone. So, now you understand why it's difficult for me to understand it when someone says that ship is taking over the show. And just for edification purposes--the grand total time of ALL the J/S kisses (including only the first 3 secs of the Broca Divide kiss b/c the rest of it is harsh IMO) is less than twenty seconds. 572 frames (at 30 frames/second: 19 secs, 2 frames).

[marimba26]

I've never seen Monk and Sharona as a pair. 1. He's still in love with Trudy. 2. If they ever had one date, Sharona would kill him. She's his friend, but no way would she put up with his quirks on what's supposed to be a date. 3. The episode where they pretended to be married seemed to answer just what it would be like, and it wasn't a pretty picture.

Now, Sharona and Disher are a whole different matter. You can just tell Disher has a thing for her. It's cute. And, Sharona likes bantering with him.

*See, I do have romance in me*

LOL--I definitely CAN'T ship for Monk and Sharona. No, No,...and did I say NO! I think Disher's kind of cute but that match squicks me a bit--no particular reason, it just does. Maybe it reminds me of McKay and Sam (that definitely squicks me). Besides Monk would never give her the time off to pursue it--he's too needy LOL. Another ship that totally squicks me (almost as much as Monk and Sharona)--Goren and Eanes (sp?) on Law and Order: Criminal Intent--NO, NO, NO! Ewww, Ick!

Ironic, you'd think a shipper like me would ship for lots of couples but the only other couple (other than Jack and Sam) I ship for is Woody and Jordan on Crossing Jordan. She's REALLY hung up (even more than Sam I think) but he doesn't take her crap and I like that about him. He wants her, makes it plain, and refuses to allow her to wig out about it LOL. If only Jack would do that...