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GateWorld
April 28th, 2019, 01:47 PM
<DIV STYLE="width:80%; text-align:center; margin:2px auto 10px auto; padding:0;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/game-of-thrones/s8/the-long-night/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-long-night-300x225.jpg" STYLE="float:right; width:250px; margin:2px 0 5px 15px; border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em; color:#888;">GAME OF THRONES - SEASON EIGHT</SPAN>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:1.5em; font-weight:bold;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/game-of-thrones/s8/the-long-night/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">THE LONG NIGHT</A></SPAN>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em;">EPISODE NUMBER - 803</SPAN>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0; text-align:left;">The war against the dead reaches a critical moment as the Night King and his army arrive at Winterfell, where an unlikely alliance of people lay down their lives for one another -- and for the future of the Seven Kingdoms.</DIV>
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Skydiver
April 28th, 2019, 07:21 PM
Holy crud what an ending

ANd I gotta yell...we were right!

killing the night king kills them all

Poor Jorah, but he died defending his khaleesi. And theon got his redemption

the other deaths are kinda up in the air. We see them fall but no real confirmation of Jamie or Brianne.

Now to take on the psycho in kingís landing

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 01:23 AM
What. An. Episode! The below probably doesnt make sense as its just a jumbled collection of thoughts.

This episode flowed well with some much needed breathers to break up the action. There's so much to say about this episode. The gradual build up to the start, the Dothraki fire swords and slaughter, the first wave, the siege, the last stand and the eventual victory.

So, who is left standing? Was quite hard following some of the deaths as there were so many times we saw someone get overwhelmed but then a few minutes later back fighting. I honestly thought we might just see pretty much everyone die.

Didnt we see Jamie at the end? Noticed a couple of people at the end. Enjoyed the token 10/15 seconds of Ghost at the start but then he disappeared, another unknown.

Slightly disappointed we didnt learn more about the Night Kings plan but hes not much of a talker is he...

Definately going to need to rewatch this one and we'll have to wait for next week for confirmation on some of the unknowns but looking forward to whats next!

Why do I get the feeling though that this might be the best episode of the season? Rest of the season is going to be epic if it tops this!

Who Knows
April 29th, 2019, 04:41 AM
Well I found it pretty hectic & confusing.

Of necessity it had to be shot at night for effect (blazing swords look better in the dark) which did not make for clarity on who went down & stayed down.
Coupled with that was the number of 'heros' all spread around, and causing continuity problems as the cameras switched from one to another and back again, or on to yet another one(?) or not (?).
I was not expecting Arya to be the one to kill the Knight King, I thought it would have been Jon.

Now we have to wait with mounting anticipation to see who has actually survived. Maybe if Mellisandra had have stayed instead of going walkabout she could have brought a few back to life.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 05:08 AM
so dragonfire can't kill the night king but dragonsteel can? w/e (hope GRRM will be more consistent in the books)


the dothraki come across as the main heroes they were the first to charge head-on into the unknown & basically laughed at death
(even if sending them ahead was strategically stupid)

Skydiver
April 29th, 2019, 05:13 AM
Not a surprise to see Dany, Jon, Tyrion in the promo for next week, so we know those survived (and kinda already knew they were alive)

Jorah - Dead
Sam - alive
Tormand - unknown
Ghost - alive
Dany - Alive
Jon - alive
Brianne - unknown
Pod - unknown
Gendry - unknown
Sansa - alive
Davos - alive
Red witch - dead (or whatever it is with her, she finished her tasks and left the world basically)
Grey Worm - unknown
Tyrion - alive
Jamie - unknown
Bran - alive
Hound - unknown
Theon - most likely dead, seemed to be a mortal wound
Varys - alive
Lyanna Mormont - dead (took out a dragon, good girl, feisty little thing)
One eye dude (Beric?) - dead
Arya - alive and killed the freaking night king....you go girl
Gilly and little Sam - likely alive


I get why they shot at night for the effect - and think of all the money they saved by being able to hide special effects with darkness - but it made it danged hard to keep track of who was where and doing what

So while the show may zoom onto the last battle part of next week will be confirming who is alive, who is dead and who is wounded.

it was an incredibly tense hour (and yes, I hid my eyes behind my hand while Arya ran from the zombies) and just zoomed by. Thank goodness they didnít pull a cliff hanger because the whole world would have been in an uproar.

Interesting that the Night King is immune to dragon fire, yet his followers are not. Someone wondered as to his origin and if he was a Targaryen. Makes me wonder if there will be a horrible twist at the end of the series what if cersei is killed, but somehow revived, to be a blue eyed cloaked figure, walking her way to the north to hide and gather strength, that maybe becoming the Night King (or queen) is the curse of the iron throne?

Killing the Night King did seem kinda anti climactic, yet was necessary, There simply is not enough dragon fire out there to kill all the zombies.

It makes me wonder if itís a cyclical thing....men fight and leave dead around, the Night King can recruit followers. Yet if men live peacefully there is no army to recruit. In other words, men (and women) and the wars they fight help to make the Long Night.

I need to watch it again, and maybe turn up the brightness of my TV to see if I can see more.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 05:13 AM
btw did Ghost survive?

Skydiver
April 29th, 2019, 05:33 AM
Unknown. Saw him running into battle and thatís it. No confirmation of death or life.

Heck I donít think I even saw him attacking anyone.

P-90_177
April 29th, 2019, 05:51 AM
btw did Ghost survive?

Well... he went in Jorah and the Dothraki and didnít come out again.

In fact is anyone else realising that Ghost is to Jon as Jorah is to Dany? I mean faithful companion. Often ignored. Keeps showing up to prove himself and defend him from harm. Gets supplanted by other pets *ahem* companions constantly ie. Sam, Ygritte, Davos, a mother-flippin dragon.

Anyway. Great episode. Guessing it was physically arduous on all the actors but at least they didnít have to learn many lines. :p

The thing that really kept coming into my mind throughout was all the legends and battle stories we were constantly told about throughout the first few seasons and how all the characters reacted to them. Arya in particular and how she loved the old Targaryen legends and so on. And now she will be one among the others. Arya the Night King Slayer. Lady Mormont the Fierce. Jon Stark the Targaryen Wolf (maybe). Jorah the Loyal. Grey Worm the Protector. In a thousand years so many of them will be remembered in the same way as the great heroes in their legends and will again all the pain and the screaming and anguish will be just blurred away so that theyíll be larger than life.

I do love the stuff with Tyrion and Sansa. The show began with the desire to join two houses together and it looks like itíll probably happen after all. I donít think Sansa loves Tyrion but she clearly has affection for him, and as we know in Westeros that is enough to make peace.

I wonder what will happen with Bran now. Surely he doesnít really have a role now the Night King is dead. Unless there is more for us to learn.

I donít think any of the others are dead other than Beric, Jorah, Lady Mormont And Theon.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 06:19 AM
Well... he went in Jorah and the Dothraki and didnít come out again.strike that

after combing through the ep4 preview:

https://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/game-of-thrones-battle-of-winterfell-did-ghost-survive.jpggood dog https://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 06:22 AM
btw I've also another idea why Drogon's fire was ineffective whereas Arya's ancient dragonsteel dagger wasn't

the Night King is extremely ancient & Drogon's fire simply ain't hot enough unlike the dragons of old from the heydays of the Valyrian civilisation like Balerion the Dread whose fire burnt so hot it was black


another possibility is that "dragonfire is just normal fire not magical it which also fits with dragons being just animals that spit fire but still age like any other animal (this ain't LOTR where dragons are immortal)

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 06:29 AM
Not a surprise to see Dany, Jon, Tyrion in the promo for next week, so we know those survived (and kinda already knew they were alive)

Jorah - Dead
Sam - unknown - Alive in the above
Tormand - unknown - Pretty sure he was standing at the end. EDIT hes in the spoilered picture above
Ghost - unknown Apparently hes in the trailer for next episode but I havent watched
Dany - Alive
Jon - alive
Brianne - unknown
Pod - unknown
Gendry - unknown
Sansa - alive
Davos - alive
Red witch - dead (or whatever it is with her, she finished her tasks and left the world basically)
Grey Worm - unknown - Pretty sure hes alive at the end EDIT hes one of the torch bearers above
Tyrion - alive
Jamie - unknown
Bran - alive
Hound - unknown - Didnt he come out with the Red witch?
Theon - most likely dead, seemed to be a mortal wound
Varys - unknown but likely alive - He was with Sansa/Tyrionn at the end
Lyanna Mormont - dead (took out a dragon, good girl, feisty little thing) - Didnt she take out a giant?
One eye dude (Beric?) - dead
Arya - alive and killed the freaking night king....you go girl
Gilly and little Sam - likely alive - Think Gilly was one of the ones who died in the crypt
Ed (Nights Watch guy)- Dead

Dont see Jamie/Brienne/Pod in the above.



I agree that this was a damn hard episode to keep track of people.

I also wondered about the Night King being Targarean.

How strong do you think their force is now that the Dothraki are pretty much gone and probably most of the Unsullied. Wonder if Cersei will mount a counter attack with her new hired army?

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 06:33 AM
I agree that this was a damn hard episode to keep track of people.

I also wondered about the Night King being Targarean. even when Dany survives fire her clothes still burn off

it's almost like the NK created some sort of deflector shield around himself (but that's just the Star Trek/Star Wars fan talking)


How strong do you think their force is now that the Dothraki are pretty much gone and probably most of the Unsullied. Wonder if Cersei will mount a counter attack with her new hired army?dont know how many dothraki survived (not many for sure) but she still has 2 dragons that beats any army
and they still have a ninja who can just sneak up behind enemy ranks

Skydiver
April 29th, 2019, 06:35 AM
Youíre right, sorry, Lyanna took out a giant (long night, not enough sleep)

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 06:41 AM
Youíre right, sorry, Lyanna took out a giant (long night, not enough sleep)

No worries, I just happened to watch that bit again just now. Still trying to piece together everything.

Is it me or was there many a time when a character seemed to be swarmed by the dead and screaming then a few minutes later back up and fighting again. The way they swarmed the castle shouldnt they have been overwhelmed?

P-90_177
April 29th, 2019, 06:58 AM
No worries, I just happened to watch that bit again just now. Still trying to piece together everything.

Is it me or was there many a time when a character seemed to be swarmed by the dead and screaming then a few minutes later back up and fighting again. The way they swarmed the castle shouldnt they have been overwhelmed?

Yes but I think partially this is due to the dead seemingly getting in their own way. We saw it when they were chasing Arya and there were two or three that were simply stuck in a door frame from trying to get past at the same time. Some of them also aren't armed so while it's overwhelming for our characters when they get swarmed the huge mass of Wights is simultaneously an advantage and disadvantage to the army of the dead.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 06:59 AM
there were several undead giants maybe most were taken out by the dothraki horde

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 07:15 AM
Yes but I think partially this is due to the dead seemingly getting in their own way. We saw it when they were chasing Arya and there were two or three that were simply stuck in a door frame from trying to get past at the same time. Some of them also aren't armed so while it's overwhelming for our characters when they get swarmed the huge mass of Wights is simultaneously an advantage and disadvantage to the army of the dead.

True, hadnt thought of it like that.

So will losing Jorah make Dany more crazy do we reckon? Could drive more of a wedge between her and Jon...

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 07:24 AM
anyone else LOLed at the stupidest military tactic ever?
right-click on dothraki army, click on fog-of-war
even in an RPG this is dumb

plus even if the dothraki use fear as a tactic they should've known they were fighting dead men who know no fear so rules change

so that's over 10k dothraki soldiers down the drain (but hey at least they got the badass death they want - in combat)

P-90_177
April 29th, 2019, 08:10 AM
True, hadnt thought of it like that.

So will losing Jorah make Dany more crazy do we reckon? Could drive more of a wedge between her and Jon...

It certainly wonít improve matters.


anyone else LOLed at the stupidest military tactic ever?
right-click on dothraki army, click on fog-of-war
even in an RPG this is dumb

plus even if the dothraki use fear as a tactic they should've known they were fighting dead men who know no fear so rules change

so that's over 10k dothraki soldiers down the drain (but hey at least they got the badass death they want - in combat)

The thing that occurred to me is that the flaming swords will have ruined their night vision. Like they will have been standing there, letting their eyes adjust to the dark and then suddenly this Red Woman comes along and sets all their swords on fire so they canít see Beyond the head of their horse. Mellisandre basically killed them...

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 08:17 AM
Mellisandre basically killed them...funny thing is right after that fire spell she said "all men must die" hehe

not even sure the fire helped much since they already had dragonglass weapons

maybe the dothraki needed to be eliminated cause they're an unreliable asset (just like the ironborn whose culture's similar) if they're alive once there's peace who's to say they won't go back to their usual ways & cause chaos in Westeros
the only thing holding them back is a sort of superstitious devotion to Dany but for how long

Skydiver
April 29th, 2019, 08:26 AM
I strongly suspect that the Dothraki - like the Unsullied - most of them anyway, would want nothing more than to just go home where itís warm. (and to the suspicious cultures, a land where the dead do not walk)

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 10:57 AM
https://youtu.be/7dgSET4fjao

An interesting watch, especially the bit about the dagger going in exactly where the children of the gods originally stabbed him...

Brother Freyr
April 29th, 2019, 11:01 AM
I've been gone for a long while. Hi.

even when Dany survives fire her clothes still burn off

it's almost like the NK created some sort of deflector shield around himself (but that's just the Star Trek/Star Wars fan talking)

We saw something like this at Hard Home. The Night King walked through fire. Or rather, the fire snuffed out as he approached it.

Updating skydiver's list: Jamie, Brienne, and Pod fought together as the NK neared Bran & Theon. Tormund and Gendry (I think it was him) were shown standing after Arya killed the Night King. It was brief, and I'm not 100% certain it was Gendry. Grey Worm and the Hound were shown alive some 10-30 seconds before the NK's death. Sam was holding Lyanna Mormont seconds before NK death. I think it's safe to say they're all alive.

Jorah - Dead
Sam - alive
Tormand - alive
Ghost - alive
Dany - Alive
Jon - alive
Brienne - alive
Pod - alive
Gendry - probably alive (standing beside Tormund? not 100% sure it's him)
Sansa - alive
Davos - alive
Red witch - dead (or whatever it is with her, she finished her tasks and left the world basically)
Grey Worm - alive
Tyrion - alive
Jamie - alive
Bran - alive
Hound - alive
Theon - most likely dead, seemed to be a mortal wound
Varys - alive
Lyanna Mormont - dead (took out a dragon, good girl, feisty little thing)
Beric - dead
Arya - alive and killed the freaking night king....you go girl
Gilly and little Sam - likely alive


I feel like TPTB should have killed 2-3 more from the group of Jamie, Brienne, Pod, Hound, Gendry, and Tormund. I guess they needed Davos for the last scene. Otherwise him, too. It's not that I want to lose any of them. I like them all. It's just that when so many of them escape a near-certain death that appears to claim everyone around them, well, my eyes reflexively roll in disbelief.

But that's a quibble. It was an epic episode. I was impressed by the pacing that the show runners discuss in the "Inside the Episode" segment afterward. The ebb and flow, the switch to different mini-stories, and other decisions they made so that we don't grow weary of 80 minutes of battle. They succeeded.

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 11:26 AM
As much as an 80 minute battle would have been awesome, I agree it would have got wearisome especially as it is literally the dead. Its not like there are meaningful battles between characters like The Hound vs The Mountain (which I think we all know we will probably get at some point...). The character moments were a nice breather.

I also agree it was a good decision to go from the wide open battle to the tight corridors of Winterfell, that bit was tense!

Skydiver
April 29th, 2019, 11:35 AM
DId you mean that Sam was holding Gilly? Cause Lyanna was totally dead. the NK revived her, so she surely died when he did

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 12:18 PM
Gendry is alive, I spotted him in the trailer.

Also, anyone think Aryas run is really weird after her scene with the red witch?

Brother Freyr
April 29th, 2019, 12:44 PM
DId you mean that Sam was holding Gilly? Cause Lyanna was totally dead. the NK revived her, so she surely died when he didGood point. I don't know, then, who was beside Sam when we see him for a second or two. Gilly and little Sam stayed in the crypt. They're okay unless an undead Stark grabbed them.

Teddybrown
April 29th, 2019, 12:54 PM
Good point. I don't know, then, who was beside Sam when we see him for a second or two. Gilly and little Sam stayed in the crypt. They're okay unless an undead Stark grabbed them.

Didnt Gilly get dragged off by a wight? She wasnt with the crypt group at the end.

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 01:19 PM
I rarely get surprised but they played it well on Arya killing the NK. I thought it would be Jon also. I had suspected her weapon was somehow connected to killing the NK. (idk if you saw the theory but many speculated she'd throw her spear, the NK would catch it between his hands and then the head part would pop out like a crossbow, headshotting the NK).

I don't know if you guys noticed, but the dagger Arya used to kill the NK has been through a lot of stuff. Remember the hired man sent to assassinate Bran? That was the very same dagger.


anyone else LOLed at the stupidest military tactic ever?
right-click on dothraki army, click on fog-of-war
even in an RPG this is dumb

Lol I admit they could've at least waited till the dead were closer. Dothraki can't fight in ranks though so at some point they'd need to be set loose. They went full zergling rush, bad call.


Didnt Gilly get dragged off by a wight? She wasnt with the crypt group at the end.

I thought she got grabbed too.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 02:59 PM
seriously the NK was killed way too easily

if direct dragonfire couldn't kill him (hey this means Ice > Fire btw) then this tiny blade of dragonsteel shouldn't have killed him either

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 03:13 PM
For the record, Targaryens are not immune to fire. Daenerys is alone, she's the unburnt. Remember Vyseris, he got melted by molten gold. It's never mentioned once that anybody else had that power. Did some research and supposedly Martin threw a fit in 99 and confirmed that fact.

The NK is not a Targaryen, he was a First Men weaponized into the NK by the Children during their war with the First Men. Things went south and he was stopped by both clans. That's like totally unrelated.

And as for him being immune to fire, I'd just say he mastered the arts of cold magic, he had new super fog abilities, he's a necromancer and sh*t.

Also Dragonfire isn't magical, I agree with Soul on that. As soon as Dany said drakarys I knew it would have failed. NK is just boss.

** But dragonsteel / valyrian steel has unique properties. It was forged in Essox and I think there's pyromancy spells involved, so the blades are magical in nature. That's why there are so few of those.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 04:05 PM
or maybe the dragonglass protects the night king against dragonfire (this means a dragonglass weapon would also fail whereas it works in normal white walkers)

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 04:41 PM
or maybe the dragonglass protects the night king against dragonfire (this means a dragonglass weapon would also fail whereas it works in normal white walkers)

Yep I'd say obsidian wouldn't work either. He's got crust for skin I mean and obsidian is sharp, but brittle.

Brother Freyr
April 29th, 2019, 04:57 PM
Westerosi like to prefix "dragon" to objects that impress them:

dragonglass - obsidian, totally unrelated to dragons
dragonsteel - valyrian steel, totally unrelated to dragons (as far as we know).
dragonfire - superheated flaming gas, totally unrelated to -- uh, yeah, that one's from dragons.

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 05:06 PM
Agreed, as Soul said Balerion the Black Dread was something else, Dragonfire is just a medieval flamethrower. Dragons are overrated. Bron almost got one and a castle.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 05:11 PM
dragonsteel - valyrian steel, totally unrelated to dragons (as far as we know). that one's steel forged with dragonfire


Agreed, as Soul said Balerion the Black Dread was something else, Dragonfire is just a medieval flamethrower. Dragons are overrated. Bron almost got one and a castle.so if NK is the avatar of the Great Other then who's the avatar of Rhllor?

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 05:14 PM
The story of the First Men and the Children of the forest is a direct parallel to the Spanish conquest of South America. The incas only had obsidian swords vs full steel Spanish conquistadors.

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 05:27 PM
that one's steel forged with dragonfire

And spells*


so if NK is the avatar of the Great Other then who's the avatar of Rhllor?

The thing about GoT is that the Gods are not really gods.

Even the Lord of Light is never involved directly, they assume their powers come from him. But other kind of magic exists it's just active when dragons are nearby.

That's why Thoros of Myr got his powers, he was known for flaming his sword but it was a hoax till Dany got her babies. That's why the alchemist said the production of wildfire spiked because their traditional spells seemed to work for the first time. Maybe that's in the books but wtv.

The NK was a simple man that got a nasty spell and became overpowered. The mighty Relllooaar doesn't exist is my theory.

Brother Freyr
April 29th, 2019, 05:45 PM
You've got to see what this guy destroys with a shard of obsidian, at 1:28. I queued it for you:

Can You Melt Obsidian and Cast a Sword?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA3lIuN_zVE&t=82

Blink and you'll miss it. The video was made long before GoT episode 8x03

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 05:55 PM
You've got to see what this guy destroys with a shard of obsidian, at 1:28. I queued it for you:

Can You Melt Obsidian and Cast a Sword?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA3lIuN_zVE&t=82

Blink and you'll miss it. The video was made long before GoT episode 8x03

:lol: @ the Minecraft portal. I bet this video got a ton of views bc of GoT lately.

SoulReaver
April 29th, 2019, 06:00 PM
And spells*



The thing about GoT is that the Gods are not really gods.

Even the Lord of Light is never involved directly, they assume their powers come from him. But other kind of magic exists it's just active when dragons are nearby.

That's why Thoros of Myr got his powers, he was known for flaming his sword but it was a hoax till Dany got her babies. That's why the alchemist said the production of wildfire spiked because their traditional spells seemed to work for the first time. Maybe that's in the books but wtv.

The NK was a simple man that got a nasty spell and became overpowered. The mighty Relllooaar doesn't exist is my theory.same question with ice/fire then if NK's the avatar of ice then who's the avatar of fire

Chaka-Z0
April 29th, 2019, 06:36 PM
same question with ice/fire then if NK's the avatar of ice then who's the avatar of fire

Avatar of fire is Azor Ahai


According to prophecy, in ancient books of Asshai[3] from over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as a champion sent by R'hllor.[6] This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world.[3] It is said that wielding Lightbringer once again, Azor Ahai will stand against the darkness[3] and if he fails, the world fails with him.[7]

Unless Lightbringer, supposed to be a kickass flaming sword is the dagger Arya used, there is no avatars. It's GoT folklore.

So basically it's just as simple, ice = death fire = life.

SoulReaver
April 30th, 2019, 06:04 AM
Avatar of fire is Azor Ahai



Unless Lightbringer, supposed to be a kickass flaming sword is the dagger Arya used, there is no avatars. It's GoT folklore.

So basically it's just as simple, ice = death fire = life.that'd explain why ice > fire

Chaka-Z0
April 30th, 2019, 08:18 AM
that'd explain why ice > fire

Yep just like Sith > Jedi

I mean the Priestess could summon shades with sacrifices, the warlocks have blood magics on Essox, much more powerful than any fire magic. And they don't need dragons either, it's a blood-for-blood kind of magic.

SoulReaver
April 30th, 2019, 08:21 AM
Yep just like Sith > Jedi

I mean the Priestess could summon shades with sacrifices, the warlocks have blood magics on Essox, much more powerful than any fire magic. And they don't need dragons either, it's a blood-for-blood kind of magic.
so the real counterpart to ice is "blood" then (not fire)

Chaka-Z0
April 30th, 2019, 08:43 AM
so the real counterpart to ice is "blood" then (not fire)

Well if we go with the symbolism of ''A song of Fire and Ice'' it means basically death vs life, good vs evil. I'd say Blood & Shadow magic is part of the ICE nation.

You watched too much avatar dude. There is no fire nation.

SoulReaver
April 30th, 2019, 10:31 AM
Well if we go with the symbolism of ''A song of Fire and Ice'' it means basically death vs life, good vs evil. I'd say Blood & Shadow magic is part of the ICE nation.

You watched too much avatar dude. There is no fire nation.(there's an avatar show?)

not in the show

the show clearly says Ice > Fire so there's no "ice & fire" duality

on the other hand now that you mention blood magic those shadow beings like the one Melisandre squeezed out are also blood magic right? and they can fit the bill they're immortal & they're used by Rhllor so they could be the real counterpart to the white walkers

Chaka-Z0
April 30th, 2019, 11:00 AM
on the other hand now that you mention blood magic those shadow beings like the one Melisandre squeezed out are also blood magic right? and they can fit the bill they're immortal & they're used by Rhllor so they could be the real counterpart to the white walkers

Pretty sure Blood & shadow magic is the same, and doesn't need to have dragons to work compared to the other kind of magic. It's all about sacrifices.

Such as:

- Daenerys and the curse of the crones in S01 when she wanted to save Droggo. She lost her child and Droggo became a Z
- Varys got his cock cut by a warlock which he threw in a pit reciting incantations to summon a demon or spirit
- Melisandre sacrificing Shireen to melt the snows for Stannis' armies
- The shade she summoned to assassinate Renly

Melisandre was more of a vampire witch than a priestess of R'Hlorr. Thoros of Myr on the other hand might be a true priest of the Lord of Light, he had the resurrection powers.

SoulReaver
April 30th, 2019, 11:14 AM
- Varys got his cock cut by a warlock which he threw in a pit reciting incantations to summon a demon or spiritspeaking of looks like we'll never get to find out who it was that spoke in the flames (Rhllor? Great Other? or just some demon underling) it's one of the two things I really wanted to find out before the end so chalk up another plothole courtesy of Dumb & Dumber https://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif


Melisandre was more of a vampire witch than a priestess of R'Hlorr. Thoros of Myr on the other hand might be a true priest of the Lord of Light, he had the resurrection powers.didn't both resurrect people the same way? they basically said it wasn't their power they just did a prayer or something & got answered

Chaka-Z0
April 30th, 2019, 11:32 AM
speaking of looks like we'll never get to find out who/what it was that spoke in the flames (Rhllor? Great Other? or just some demon underling) it's one of the two things I really wanted to find out before the end so chalk up another plothole courtesy of Dumb & Dumber https://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif

Oh yea totally me too. I have the feeling like Martin left this intentionally vague though, maybe we'll have something in the (if they ever come to light) books.

Personally, I'd say it's an ancient demon, or spirit, invoked ŗ la Ouija style. Or if you ever played Bethesda's RPG's, maybe a Daedra of some kind. Could be a God too, who knows, but my best bet is a demon / spirit. I mean Varys says that the guy who cut off his balls summoned a demon too, don't think he was a Rollo.


didn't both resurrect people the same way? they basically said it wasn't their power they just did a prayer or something & got answered

Good question. The only instance where Melisandre revives someone is Jon when he gets stabbed, but I'd be the first to point out that he wasn't actually completely dead, so it's more of a superhealing than resurrection. Jon was no different when he came back to life.

Whereas Beric actually died a dozen times or more and brought back by Thoros with prayers to the Lord of Light. It's said in the book he was hanged, pierced by a spear, shot, stabbed, and a bunch of other deaths in the woods. Thoros says he had a relatively short window to bring him back, but when he did Beric became less himself over time, as if his soul lost pieces on each occasion.

Beric Dondarrion would actually be the Azor Ahai, he's wielding a real flaming sword and he's the martyr of the story basically, which fits the description. It's like he was inhabited by a long-lost spirit of Azor Ahai whom had a mission to accomplish.
The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating the weapon known as Lightbringer.

Also, Catelyn Starks resurrects as Lady Stoneheart in the books, seemingly without any intervention at all (she fell into the river after the red wedding and came back in that form). She's basically an undead with a bunch of groupies that brutally kills anybody related to the Red Wedding. They didn't include her in the series though, even though I believe she's like a super important character.

SoulReaver
April 30th, 2019, 11:47 AM
The only instance where Melisandre revives someone is Jon when he gets stabbed, but I'd be the first to point out that he wasn't actually completely deadknife to the heart dude he's as dead as it gets

else they could just call a maester apparently these guys are at least as competent as today's doctors & surgeons

Chaka-Z0
April 30th, 2019, 12:11 PM
knife to the heart dude he's as dead as it gets

else they could just call a maester apparently these guys are at least as competent as today's doctors & surgeons

Well in the books he calls for Ghost right before he dies, and it was theorized that he warged into the wolf before he died. That's where the story ended in the books, so we don't know.

I'm convinced that Martin is waiting for the show to run it's course, then will publish the last two books. And I tell ya the story will be much different than the series. As far as I'm concerned, the show is great but the only true canon is the books.

lopo30
May 1st, 2019, 04:00 AM
So what was the point of the dead and night king ? They wanted forever night but whats next ? Dead dont talk not even the nigh king. Bran dont show much of the story abut the nigh king too. So it's basically same as any other zombie bs movie or show. They will make more zombies till all people are made to zombies. Then stay still and do nothing. No endgame for zombies for why they need to make more zombies and kill everyone that are not zombie.

First season end with the nigh king and then dont see them at all for 7 years and they they get all killed off really easy.

Now thinking of the sea of dead zombies after the battle. What they do with them.

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 07:30 AM
It's important to understand that the producers are not fantasy writers, they are movie producers. GRRM isn't involved in the writing since S06, simply because his story left off when Jon gets stabbed.

I had to watch this episode twice, the second time around with brightness at 100 and wow what a difference, I could actually see very clearly everything that was going on.

That being said, I thought I'd draft a short list of the logic issues in this episode.

1- The Trebuchets / catapults placement: Easy, there is no room in the castle and they become useless once the dead reach the gates. Also provides cover for the infantry. I don't see the problem with that.

2- Overall strategy: Fighting hordes of zombies with a standing army is beyond stupid. They should've built some sort of maze to channel the dead through and bottleneck them.

3- The Dothraki charge: Explainable in the sense that the Dothraki can't fight in ranks. But, sending them ahead like that is also beyond stupid, since they know the NK can raise them back from the dead and send them back.

4- Jorah saving Daenerys: No explanation, wtf was he doing there? playing dead with the corpses?

5- Arya's ''teleportation'': The only way I can explain how she sneaked through is by use of the secret passage in the Godswood. That's how Theon smuggled out Bran and Rickon when he faked their deaths. There's also this funny theory of Bran using the raven to ''drop her in'', but unlikely.

6- The Crypt attack: Illogical, the wights can't break through wooden doors but they can break through 1 foot of stone?

7- Jon and the dragon: After watching it twice it's quite obvious that what he's doing is distracting the dragon to give the opportunity to Arya to sneak in, so no problem on that one for me.

SoulReaver
May 1st, 2019, 08:35 AM
3- The Dothraki charge: Explainable in the sense that the Dothraki can't fight in ranks. But, sending them ahead like that is also beyond stupid, since they know the NK can raise them back from the dead and send them back.not to mention Jon & Dany watching as the lights went out when this was the perfect time to use the dragons & thin out the undead horde (which at that point was tightly packed when the dothraki charged) before it reached Winterfell

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 09:09 AM
not to mention Jon & Dany watching as the lights went out when this was the perfect time to use the dragons & thin out the undead horde (which at that point was tightly packed when the dothraki charged) before it reached Winterfell

NK and his band would've 1-shot speared the dragons in the dark if they did.

Skydiver
May 1st, 2019, 10:30 AM
not to mention Jon & Dany watching as the lights went out when this was the perfect time to use the dragons & thin out the undead horde (which at that point was tightly packed when the dothraki charged) before it reached Winterfell



But they had two parts of the plan. (should have watched Harry Potter then theyíd know that Plan A never works. Ďit all goes sideways and we end up making it up as we go alongí or something to that effect.

anyway, the plan for the dragons was to light the trench and go after the night king. They needed to draw him out so revealing their dragons too soon may have scuppered that, so they didnít.

SoulReaver
May 1st, 2019, 10:38 AM
NK and his band would've 1-shot speared the dragons in the dark if they did.the walkers were far behind the undead horde at that point



anyway, the plan for the dragons was to light the trench and go after the night king. They needed to draw him out so revealing their dragons too soon may have scuppered that, so they didnít.
the NK already knew 2 dragons were left he would've known they were somewhere waiting

which btw brings up another thing when the dragonfire failed why didn't Dany instruct Drogon to physically attack the night king & tear him to pieces or at least pin him down & give Jon time to poke his sword
once the night king threw his spear he was open for attack

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 10:52 AM
You mean the NK's Tomahawk missile?

Well Martin did say they're just ice + WW magic. I'd say the NK could very well pickup a new chunk of ice on the floor and throw another missile at Drogon.

And technically, even a dragon's bite could not kill him. Only Valyrian steel can. He's like old people's candy, you can't break him.

Edit: the real question is why did Dany just stay there on the ground leaving her dragon open to attacks (when Drogon shrugs off the wights like flies)? My answer, just to get a drama scene with Jorah saving the day. No logic on that one either.

SoulReaver
May 1st, 2019, 11:23 AM
You mean the NK's Tomahawk missile?

Well Martin did say they're just ice + WW magic. I'd say the NK could very well pickup a new chunk of ice on the floor and throw another missile at Drogon.those spears look special not ordinary ice maybe the equivalent of valyrian steel not something that can be made ad hoc
(MArtin? so the walkers use those spears in the books too?)


And technically, even a dragon's bite could not kill him. Only Valyrian steel can. He's like old people's candy, you can't break him.we never see any of the walkers subject to this sort of direct physical attack the best that's shown is swords impact on them & shatter because of the cold

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 01:23 PM
those spears look special not ordinary ice maybe the equivalent of valyrian steel not something that can be made ad hoc
(MArtin? so the walkers use those spears in the books too?)

That's right, Martin confirmed WW weapons are just ice imbued with cold magic whereas valyrian steel is steel forged with Dragonfire and blood magic infused. No Spears as of yet, but still unknown how they craft their weapon, all we know is that it's magic ice.


we never see any of the walkers subject to this sort of direct physical attack the best that's shown is swords impact on them & shatter because of the cold

I guess it's possible, but if you think about it, one small spear can kill a dragon, imagine eating a NK whole.

SoulReaver
May 1st, 2019, 01:53 PM
I guess it's possible, but if you think about it, one small spear can kill a dragon, imagine eating a NK whole.no need to eat it then just tear him to shreds. or pin him down till Jon can poke his sword
iirc those spears were explosive somehow
at any rate the weapons are not like the makers

btw didn't Arya's dagger have a dragonbone handle? gotta be a reason why they chose this when any material would've sufficed (it's just a hilt)

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 02:07 PM
Dude this episode was the sketchiest by far, just look at the previous seasons nothing makes sense anymore.

Why did the Giant pickup Lyanna ? He literally crushed everything but her, maybe he wanted to play a game of peek-a-boo?
Where did Jorah come from? Ghost is a true ghost now.

As for Arya's dagger, it's the same that LF had, not sure what it's made of.

SoulReaver
May 1st, 2019, 02:14 PM
Dude this episode was the sketchiest by far, just look at the previous seasons nothing makes sense anymore.

Why did the Giant pickup Lyanna ? He literally crushed everything but her, maybe he wanted to play a game of peek-a-boo?
Where did Jorah come from? Ghost is a true ghost now.

As for Arya's dagger, it's the same that LF had, not sure what it's made of.valyrian steel blade + dragonbone hilt
original owner unknown but probably famous back in their time like maybe forged by the fire of a strong dragon like Balerion anyone's guess is good

giant picked up Lyanna so she could fulfil her destiny as Lyanna the real giant's bane (and rumoured daughter of Tormund)

and most importantly: Ghost says not today (https://fsmedia.imgix.net/af/8c/04/0c/7c2c/421a/bee5/1d8b9877130d/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4-did-ghost-die-or-live.png) https://forum-images.hardware.fr/icones/smilies/bounce.gif
(implausibly tough doggy to have survived that suicide run but I won't complain on that one)

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 02:22 PM
Yea well that dagger is definitely one important blade of Valyrian origin, although how it ended up in LF's possession is unknown. All those family heirlooms are pre-doom era.

SoulReaver
May 1st, 2019, 02:40 PM
so how did Melissandre fulfil her destiny anyway

both her interventions turned out to be bleh...

first trick, impressive but emboldened the dothraki enough to charge ahead & cost Dany most of her army (unless that was her intent like a sort of sacrifice)

second trick, light up the trench big deal & the undead "got over it" quickly

Chaka-Z0
May 1st, 2019, 07:25 PM
so how did Melissandre fulfil her destiny anyway

She fulfilled her poorly written conclusion destiny. They probably realized she needed a purpose for the battle so they gave her the barricades. It's sad to say but you can't use GoT lore to explain the show really, so many characters are absent or storylines changed.

Honestly there was a huge story going on with Azor Ahai and they pulled the Arya BS at the last moment, I'm disappointed.

For one, there is the true heir to the throne, Aegon Targaryen IV, son of Rhaegar and his first wife (Elia Martell), who was in hiding all those years and is now landed in Westoros to claim what is his by right. He lives under a pseudonym and escaped the rebellion with a few elite guards of the Crown, the baby that we all thought Gregor smashed to bits wasn't actually the real Targaryen.

Nothing about that guy in the show.

Skydiver
May 1st, 2019, 08:17 PM
Again, book canon is nothing more than a suggestion of how show canon may be. There will be details in the book that never make it to the show, and there are aspects of the show that were never in the books.

One cannot be used to validate or invalidate the other.

Even if GRRM gets around to finishing the books (something I doubt heíll do honestly) he will have hundreds/thousands of pages to use while these guys had a few hundred script pages to wrap up the whole season.

SoulReaver
May 2nd, 2019, 01:27 AM
Even if GRRM gets around to finishing the books (something I doubt heíll do honestly) has he got someone in the family to take over? (like JRR had Christopher)

Skydiver
May 2nd, 2019, 05:15 AM
I donít know. If he had finished the books before they would forever be comparing the show to his books, but now they will be comparing the books to the show...and to many the show canon is what they see first, so some will prefer it, others will wish for more.

Things did divulge enough that if the books are ever done, they will be far different works. Heís had 8 years to write a sequel and has not.

Chaka-Z0
May 2nd, 2019, 07:02 AM
It's not about books vs show. It's about the execution, many things seemed forced and so obvious to me. I'd say the same if such obvious last minute saves were made in any show or movie.

Jorah teleported to Dany, the giant studying Lyanna, Ghost isn't important anymore, Mťlissandre resurrecting Jon so he can dance with the dragon, the NK generals literally did nothing at all, etc.

The episode was good I watched it twice, it's the long night alright but nobody should have to pump the brightness settings to the max in order to actually see what's going on.

Skydiver
May 2nd, 2019, 10:22 AM
I do agree with you on the technical aspects of the episode. Too danged dark. I get that they filmed at night to get it looking Ďrightí and night timey, but I also feel that was a mistake in that so much is lost.

Chaka-Z0
May 2nd, 2019, 10:27 AM
I do agree with you on the technical aspects of the episode. Too danged dark. I get that they filmed at night to get it looking Ďrightí and night timey, but I also feel that was a mistake in that so much is lost.

Meh, it's not a ''mistake'' it was done intentionally for a very simple reason. Saving on CGI cost.

That's also why we don't see Ghost as much, supposedly he's very pricy to CGI, much more than dragons. Something to do with animating his fur.

FYI unless you have a very old TV, I'd suggest re-watching it with brightness settings at 100, it really does a big difference and I enjoyed the episode much more the 2nd time around.

Teddybrown
May 2nd, 2019, 01:00 PM
Didnt GRRM give the show writers an outline of how the books were going to go?

Skydiver
May 2nd, 2019, 06:06 PM
Didnt GRRM give the show writers an outline of how the books were going to go?

He did. and presumably, what they have done is in line with how his books would end...the Ďcatchí is that while both may arrive at the same destination the path they travel may be a bit different

Chaka-Z0
May 2nd, 2019, 07:51 PM
He did. and presumably, what they have done is in line with how his books would end...the Ďcatchí is that while both may arrive at the same destination the path they travel may be a bit different

Yup. But the other catch is GRRM himself admitted he's kinda stuck in a mess of plots.And I mean he could change the whole story. Destination is : NK is killed. The rest is up to him.

Skydiver
May 3rd, 2019, 05:24 AM
Oh yeah, you could tell that when those two books meandered on for 1000+ pages and really accomplished nothing. Itís like he was sitting in front of his computer, banging out scenes, struggling to figure out where the plot was going and writing scenes in the mean time that did nothing to advance the plot...because he didnít know where to go.

Kinda like the cab that circles the block because no one gives the driver a destination. He meandered and he seemed to have an editor that let him wander in circles.

P-90_177
May 3rd, 2019, 05:40 AM
Makes me wonder if he's waiting for the show to give him ideas. :p

Chaka-Z0
May 3rd, 2019, 07:39 AM
Makes me wonder if he's waiting for the show to give him ideas. :p

That is the most plausible theory. I am convinced that when Martin left the boat it was mainly because of disagreements with the producers. Some people don't work well under pressure, which I'm sure he experienced from the public as well. He's just waiting for the show to run its course so he can pop out a whole different story and go ''hey see I'm better than those guys''.

Honestly at that point, I'm shelving the GoT books in the same drawer than Half-Life 3. I'm not expecting them to ever come out.

SoulReaver
May 3rd, 2019, 07:56 AM
Destination is : NK is killedeven if the walkers have a leader in the books nothing's to say he'll be killed for good
maybe a new one's created every time the previous one's killed
like the slayers in Buffy

if there is a NK I hope he's not killed by something simple like a dagger (unless it's forged in a mount Doom style volcano maybe)
btw apparently many viewers complained about this part of the ep that he should've been unaffected by the dagger (cause he was unaffected by dragonfire) and the screenwriters answered
or rather, answered the reverse question (why was he unaffected by dragonfire)
and the answer's as dumb as it gets he said given ASOIAF there's no reason why it should or shouldn't affect him, but he thought it'd be "too dull" if it did kill him so he decided to spice things up '_'
in other words it's up to the viewers to come up with a coherent explanation lol


Makes me wonder if he's waiting for the show to give him ideas. :phe bloody better not (he's better than that right?)

Chaka-Z0
May 3rd, 2019, 08:17 AM
Some say NK might've warged into Bran.

And no, he's not better than that.

Skydiver
May 3rd, 2019, 02:14 PM
That is the most plausible theory. I am convinced that when Martin left the boat it was mainly because of disagreements with the producers. Some people don't work well under pressure, which I'm sure he experienced from the public as well. He's just waiting for the show to run its course so he can pop out a whole different story and go ''hey see I'm better than those guys''.

Honestly at that point, I'm shelving the GoT books in the same drawer than Half-Life 3. I'm not expecting them to ever come out.

I have the books but I honestly donít know if I will ever go back and wade through them. the most joy in reading them was - as those that were watching the show approached the Red Wedding, enjoying the horror of those that didnít know it was coming.

GRRM seems like one of those writers that plots and plots and plots and plots....then does write, but gets bored with it and stops writing because heís now interested in something else. I know for me if I do too much plotting and writing stuff down, my brain considers the plot/puzzle solved and moves on.

I feel that, ultimately, GOT will come to a good and decent conclusion, but they really needed a couple more episodes to really flesh it out, so it will feel rushed in a way, and GRRM will never finish those books because I donít know if he can handle being compared to others rather than having others compared to him. (it now wonít be Ďhow much the show changed from the books, it will be how much the books diverted from the show)

SoulReaver
May 3rd, 2019, 03:03 PM
I feel that, ultimately, GOT will come to a good and decent conclusion, but they really needed a couple more episodes to really flesh it outnít be Ďhow much the show changed from the books, it will be how much the books diverted from the show)3 episodes without white walkers just to deal with Cersei ain't enough?
without Plot Induced Stupidity it would only take them 1 episode (send in Arya she may pull it off even without a mask)

Brother Freyr
May 6th, 2019, 12:17 AM
Makes me wonder if he's waiting for the show to give him ideas. :pThat's fine with me, if it helps him finish the books (something I don't expect him to do).


send in Arya she may pull it off even without a maskArya *would* be the perfect choice to end Cersei's life. Her one blade could prevent all the deaths from the armies' fighting. She could kill Qyburn and wear his face to get next to Cersei. But the showrunners can't allow it, not since Arya already killed the Night King. It would violate some rule of good drama. Shame.

Skydiver
May 6th, 2019, 04:48 AM
There is also the whole believability thing. One person kills every bad guy? Too much plot device.

Arya is on a revenge quest, and for her now itís not as much who she keeps killing, but if she decides to live or die. She may be the foil to make something happen, but I wonder if Cerseiís death will come at the hands of one of her brothers.