Cupid's Dagger (109)

[GateWorld]

THE ORVILLE - SEASON ONE
CUPID'S DAGGER
EPISODE NUMBER - 109

With the Orville playing host to a pair of warring species Ed and Kelly are shocked when Darulio, the man Kelly cheated with, arrives to aid in the mediation. Meanwhile Yaphit declares his love for Dr. Finn.

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[Crazedwraith]

This episode has the most awful morals ever.

Hey kids, rape is okay so long as it's "humorous" and done by chemicals, we'll even solve the problem of the week with it. Darulio gets away with as well claiming it was an accident when he clearly did it intentionally to Ed at least to get him off his back, probably Kelly as well.

By far the weakest Orville episode.

[AleksisMi]

huh... huuuuh... i didnt see it... il watch the orvile stuff some day....

i mean i dont agree with the whole coercing people to have sex, or even really sex in generall... uhmmm.... not sure how i feel about casual sex.... it seems.... amusing? but casual sex is so.... it almost devalues it... almost :/ what is life if everything is so.... discardable... relationships should be more then that, discardable is so sad for anything involving humans or other species even...

on the other hand what if someone genetically enhances himself with gene therapy to be more handsome or sexy or steely strong, what if they emit hormones naturally that make them virtually irresistable,

is it wrong? its a form of drugging, but its more too, a deep communication that bypasses personality and life choices as well as the experiences that define who we are, and goes more to a direct genetic compatability, which is ... odd to say the least, and the reliationships do not even last as stable relationships but become very sketchy or unbalanced in how often they meet up or do stuff together as a couple or freinds.

My point is... where are the moral lines on who and what we are.... is it wrong to have sex, is it wrong to have money, is it wrong to have land? they are all part of what makes a person to attractive to people to resist.

money represents our social power, value, and ability to get things for someone, its one of the most obvious representations of such social value and ability to produce things,

land represents value in such a degree as well as safety and a home, and the privelege of being safe and comfortable, of being able to produce things or make a living via various businesses and the rich tapestry of experiencing nature and life

sex is... well sex... its also social power and value based on how many want to have sex with you and what they are willing to do on it, most particularly seen in celebritys, work places, and hormone filled colleges. many places where people gather, power is shown by who you can have, vs who you cannot have vs who you have to work for to get....

anyways not to mention who you have had sex with in the past.... so yea humans are wierd in a constant state of power struggles and the chance, the ability to display their social triumphs, usefulness, and overall value as individuals to confirm they do matter and have the ability to please those they care about while carrying social strength and individual strength.

theirs so much more to it, particularly when you speak on alien cultures, different species, and evolutions effects on other worlds evolving species and how they choose mates and how they are allowed or able to exist in their society.

give a person a box of chocolates, look cute, have really great open and sparkly eyes, and chances are you have a great chance. its really more about how you display your confidence vs your human fragility and natural deep interest in another person...

but in space travel we may change and value different methods for determining mating, perhaps we will just turn into a emotionless species with a simple have sex with anyone or anything attitude and it will be seen as no different then to sitting next to someone while watching tv or playing a game of baseball with random coworkers... how long based on how we are until getting a night of sexual intercourse turns into a quick trip to the mall sexeteria, to roughly quote futurama

[Spimman]

The elevator scene running in three parts through this episode. Might be one of my favorite comedic moments of any show ever.

[Annoyed]

on the other hand what if someone genetically enhances himself with gene therapy to be more handsome or sexy or steely strong, what if they emit hormones naturally that make them virtually irresistable,

is it wrong? its a form of drugging, but its more too, a deep communication that bypasses personality and life choices as well as the experiences that define who we are, and goes more to a direct genetic compatability, which is ... odd to say the least, and the reliationships do not even last as stable relationships but become very sketchy or unbalanced in how often they meet up or do stuff together as a couple or freinds.

My point is... where are the moral lines on who and what we are.... is it wrong to have sex, is it wrong to have money, is it wrong to have land? they are all part of what makes a person to attractive to people to resist.

money represents our social power, value, and ability to get things for someone, its one of the most obvious representations of such social value and ability to produce things,

land represents value in such a degree as well as safety and a home, and the privelege of being safe and comfortable, of being able to produce things or make a living via various businesses and the rich tapestry of experiencing nature and life

These are some very good questions. Is dosing yourself with pheromones to make your self more attractive to the opposite sex any more or less wrong than being rich, having good bone structure or any other attribute that the opposite gender gets weak in the knees over?

[Crazedwraith]

Yes, it is very different.

The bottom line is, the alien purposefully applied chemicals that altered Kelly and Ed so that they would have sex with him when otherwise they wouldn't.

That's not swaying their decision processes by being rich or whatever, that's overriding their ability to give consent.

[Annoyed]

Yes, it is very different.

The bottom line is, the alien purposefully applied chemicals that altered Kelly and Ed so that they would have sex with him when otherwise they wouldn't.

That's not swaying their decision processes by being rich or whatever, that's overriding their ability to give consent.

Just for example, take money. Take two identical twins, one rich, one not. How many people would jump into bed with the rich one while they wouldn't give the poor one the time of day?

Isn't money doing the exact same thing?

[Crazedwraith]

No because the person still has free will. They have the choice. They choose if the person's riches matter to them or not.

They don't have that choice when under chemical influence. They are forced to feel affection they didn't otherwise.

[Annoyed]

But that's just it. They are not under chemical influence, The assailant? didn't dose them with anything. He/she dosed themselves.
if you want to make the argument that that strips the power away from the victim, I could make the same argument with perfume/cologne. Or naturally occurring pheremones, for that matter.

[Crazedwraith]

No. He intentionally doses them. He reaches and intentionally puts the whammy on both Kelly and Ed; this is especially clear in the case of Ed whose behaviour immediately changes from rage to infatuation.

It is not remotely comparable to cologne and it's idiotic to suggest 'smells good' is the same as forcible changing someone's mind. You can't look at Ed's instant 180 and tell me you can achieve the same effect with money, perfume or good looks.

[Annoyed]

You're talking about this show and that episode, specifically.

I'm talking about the more general question I asked. One of the points of Sci Fi is to ask questions like this.

These are some very good questions. Is dosing yourself with pheromones to make your self more attractive to the opposite sex any more or less wrong than being rich, having good bone structure or any other attribute that the opposite gender gets weak in the knees over?

[Crazedwraith]

Yes I'm talking about the episode. This is the episode discussion thread you smug twit.

And yes if your hypothetical pheromones work in the same way as the ones shown in the episode they are as immoral as they were in the episode.

[Annoyed]

Yes I'm talking about the episode. This is the episode discussion thread you smug twit.

And yes if your hypothetical pheromones work in the same way as the ones shown in the episode they are as immoral as they were in the episode.

I rewatched this ep. due to this discussion, and was reminded that Darulio didn't dose himself with anything, the pheromones are a natural function of his biology. He is what he is. I don't think you can hang him on human morals for that.

Yes, the concept is a stretch; how could the same pheromones affect widely different species, even Yaphit? But that's a different discussion.

[aretood2]

No. He intentionally doses them. He reaches and intentionally puts the whammy on both Kelly and Ed; this is especially clear in the case of Ed whose behaviour immediately changes from rage to infatuation.

It is not remotely comparable to cologne and it's idiotic to suggest 'smells good' is the same as forcible changing someone's mind. You can't look at Ed's instant 180 and tell me you can achieve the same effect with money, perfume or good looks.

I don't recall that detail...As far as I remember it was part of his species' life cycle and it just sorta happens. That's the thing about Sci Fi though, this is more than Mr. McCreepy doesing himself with a goal in mind for a very specific individual(s) and purpose. This is a person's natural life cycle which is responsible for the procreation of their species...it adds an etra layer but that was sorta swept under the rug for the laughs.

Then again, this type of thing is often downplayed in sci fi. It's almost a rule that no character will be traumatized or see it as rape or anything like that. Maybe Stewart's show or Discovery could give this a serious run through...but TOS kinda did that with that one movie I think, I don't remember...or was it a book? It was involving the Deltans. I definitely read a time travel book about it though, I just get the feeling I also saw it on TV.

EDIT: Just saw Annoyed's post. So yeah, he did nothing other than live and breathe. Okay, maybe knowing how he can effect other species he would or might consider taking certain precautions....

[Annoyed]

...but TOS kinda did that with that one movie I think, I don't remember...or was it a book? It was involving the Deltans. I definitely read a time travel book about it though, I just get the feeling I also saw it on TV.

I think you're meaning Lt. Ilia, a female Deltan in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Deltans were supposed to be a very sexual species and were required to sign an oath of celibacy to join Starfleet.