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GateWorld
January 9th, 2018, 10:17 AM
<DIV STYLE="width:80%; text-align:center; margin:0 auto 10px auto; padding:0;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/star-trek/discovery/s1/whats-past-is-prologue/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/whats-past-is-prologue-300x225.jpg" STYLE="float:right; width:250px; margin:2px 0 5px 15px; border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em; color:#888;">STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - SEASON ONE</SPAN>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:1.5em; font-weight:bold;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/star-trek/discovery/s1/whats-past-is-prologue/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">WHAT'S PAST IS PROLOGUE</A></SPAN>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em;">EPISODE NUMBER - 113</SPAN>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0; text-align:left;">Lorca launches an all-out coup against the Emperor, putting Michael and her loyalties squarely in the middle -- while <em>Discovery</em> weighs a desperate gambit to restore the mycelial network that may cost the crew their lives.</DIV>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em; font-weight:bold;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/star-trek/discovery/s1/whats-past-is-prologue/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></SPAN></DIV>

DigiFluid
January 28th, 2018, 06:23 PM
Didn't quite enjoy this one as much as the last few weeks, but there was still plenty good (or at least noteworthy) in it....

In no particular order:
Ha, Jason Isaacs is out. Totally called that in talk about last week's episode
Really lovely to see Saru stepping up as Captain
Also really lovely to see that Saru has forgiven Michael/she's earned back his respect
Bit odd that they just tossed away Mirror Stamets like that
Ooh, Mirror Georgiou in our universe...9 months too far forward... (I think I can guess what the plot of the final two episodes will be centred around)
No L'rell//Voq/Tyler update this week?
In a crisis, clock-is-ticking situation, Tilly had time to go get her (waaaay better Mirror) hair un-styled?
Hey, blue robot bridge officer finally had some dialogue!
Super disappointed we never got to see the Defiant
Loved seeing (our) Stamets back up to full strength and doing that I'm-going-to-ramble-through-the-kinks-of-this-problem-while-you-stare-at-me-dumbfounded thing again

I also really like Lt. Detmer--I hope she gets a bit more to do next season.

Ian-S
January 29th, 2018, 07:59 AM
Yup, sums up my thoughts too.

So the question is will they use time travel to fix things (doubtful) or will they hunt out what remains of the Federation and fight back?

Let me guess, the Klingons have become our Universe's version of the Terhan Empire?

P-90_177
January 30th, 2018, 11:21 AM
So I'm pretty sure Lorca will be back in some form or another. Not as a regular and probably not this season but I'm sure he will be.

Agreed with Digi that it wasn't as good but it was still pretty awesome. Totally called that we wouldn't see the Defiant though. :P

Saru is now THE Captain and I am totally ok with that. First Alien Captain as a main character and he's become pretty damn awesome at it.

My bet for next week is that the Mirror Discovery has been causing some mischief while they've been gone which has led to the Federation being defeated. Some time travel may or may not be used to fix the situation but either/or I'm willing to bet Burnham will be given a commission again by the end of the season.

DigiFluid
January 30th, 2018, 12:59 PM
I’m curious whether the resolution here night end up being the Battle of Axanar. The timing is a little bit off, but Kirk should be in his final years at the Academy right now, which would still track with his line that Captain Garth’s tactics were required reading while he was there. It’d be tight to fit it in, but I’m curious whether this may be (part of) why the lawsuit against the Axanar fan film was so vicious.

P-90_177
January 31st, 2018, 07:24 AM
I’m curious whether the resolution here night end up being the Battle of Axanar. The timing is a little bit off, but Kirk should be in his final years at the Academy right now, which would still track with his line that Captain Garth’s tactics were required reading while he was there. It’d be tight to fit it in, but I’m curious whether this may be (part of) why the lawsuit against the Axanar fan film was so vicious.

It's possible but I figured the time period it's set in together with the complete change of aesthetic style was enough to put Axanar in their crosshairs.

Flash525
February 1st, 2018, 07:39 AM
Ha, Jason Isaacs is out. Totally called that in talk about last week's episode
Super disappointed we never got to see the DefiantHaven't there been reports that Jason Isaacs is signed on for Season 2? Whilst Mirror Lorca may well be dead, we don't truly know the fate or Prime Lorca, so he may yet still be with us somewhere - likely in on a Klingon prison colony. Regarding the USS Defiant, I am also bummed that we didn't get to see it. Likewise (and I know this was probably high with expectation anyway) but I had hoped we might see a Tholian or two.

Kilgharrah
February 1st, 2018, 02:42 PM
I'd hate it if they used time travel to fix things. I think it would be better if they picked up the pieces and fixed things. They can also use the mycelial network now since Stamets got more acquainted with it.

I'm almost certain that Lorca lives on inside the network. Whether he'll be played by Isaacs next time we see him is the only thing I'm not sure about.

I guess if they were not at war, Starfleet would have appointed another captain, but considering what happened, I guess he's the captain for now at least. Don't get me wrong. I really like the idea of Saru being the captain.

DigiFluid
February 1st, 2018, 06:15 PM
The ad for the next episode seems to indicate that they won't be time travelling, which is interesting in itself.

DigiFluid
February 1st, 2018, 06:25 PM
A good write-up (https://www.inverse.com/article/40720-star-trek-discovery-klingon-war-history-canon-classic-tos-sarek) on how Discovery (as of end of 113) fits nicely into TOS.

Copy/paste under these spoiler tags, in case it disappears....
3 Ways 'Star Trek: Discovery' Explains Original Series Politics Perfectly
By Ryan Britt on January 31, 2018

The final moments of the thirteenth episode of Star Trek: Discovery seem to have put the writing of the series in a no-win scenario. Because this show is set a decade before the original series, how the hell can Star Trek as we know it exist after all of this?

The answer might seem counterintuitive, but the deeper you dig into Trek’s complex canon, the easier it is to accept. It’s possible, and even likely, that all of the latest developments make perfect sense, and in fact, explain why the context original series feels the way it does. Here are three specific reasons why the newest Discovery twist might end up creating old-school Star Trek continuity, specifically, why the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet act the way they do in the 60s show and beyond.

1. We Already Know Sarek Negotiated Peace With the Klingons
In the original series episode “Journey to Babel,” Spock and Burnham’s dad Sarek was already extremely famous for his diplomatic achievements. Right now Discovery has taken place mostly in 2256, while “Journey to Babel” happens in 2268. However, the long-term diplomatic talks that eventually result in the Federation becoming allies with the Klingons start in 2293 in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Though Spock is the one who opened a “dialogue” with the Klingon High Council, guess who asked him to do it? Yep, his dad, Sarek.

Also, in The Next Generation episode “Sarek” (which happens in 2366) we learn that Sarek was responsible for negotiating the final “Treaty of Alliance” between the Klingons and the Federation, sometime between 2344 and 2357. The point with all of this is simple. Sarek’s diplomatic cred with the Klingons had to start somewhere, and it looks like we’re witnessing it on Discovery. How will Sarek negotiate peace? Well, in the very first Discovery episode — “The Vulcan Hello” — we learned the Vulcans achieved a ceasefire with the Klingons through aggressively firing on all of their spaceships no matter what. Maybe something similar had to happen with Starfleet in order for the Klingons to leave them alone. After all, if Starfleet uses Mirror Georgiou’s ruthless tactics to scare the Klingons, they might be in better shape.

2. The Size of and Behavior of Starfleet in the Original Series is Suggestive
The number of ships in Starfleet in the original Star Trek is never made clear, but it feels way smaller than what we see in Discovery. If the Klingons have wiped out nearly the entire fleet, then it would make sense that ten years later, Starfleet is just kind of getting back on its feet. In the Deep Space Nine episode “Trials and Tribble-ations” a time-traveling Jadzia Dax mentions “they really used to pack them in on these old ships,” in reference to Kirk’s USS Enterprise. Maybe after the Klingon War, Starfleet consolidated its resources in bigger ships with bigger crews. So far in Discovery, speaking about Constitution-Class ships (like the Enterprise or Defiant) is sort of a big deal. When Burnham and Tilly talk about the Enterprise in the episode “Lethe,” they make it sound like it’s huge.

The Enterprise in the original Star Trek also seems ready to do serious damage at the drop of a hat. This fact is mentioned in numerous episodes, including the original “Mirror, Mirror.” Perhaps after the events of Discovery Starfleet makes its bigger ships not only sturdier but way deadlier. Some fans have complained that Starfleet behaves too much like military organization in Discovery, but Kirk employs “gunboat diplomacy” all the time in the original series.

It’s also relevant to note that in “Errand of Mercy” ( the first Klingon episode ever) Kirk says he’s seen what Klingons do when they take over planets. “I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organized into vast slave labor camps. No freedoms whatsoever.” When did Kirk see this? During the time of Discovery Kirk is most likely a Lieutenant in Starfleet in 2256, meaning he could be on the USS Farragut, perhaps fighting the war. So, if Kirk remembers how bad things got for the Federation during this time, his comments in “Errand of Mercy” check, and his attitude toward the Klingons, in general, makes even sense.

3. The Location of the Neutral Zone Has Already Been Seen in Discovery’s First Episode
The boundary between the Klingon Empire and the Federation in the majority of Star Trek that happens after Discovery is called “the Neutral Zone.” (There’s a Romulan neutral zone, too, but don’t worry about that right now.) The point is, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan establishes that one part of the Neutral Zone is in the Gamma Hydra system. Guess what: the Battle at the Binary Stars in the two-part pilot episode of Discovery happens in the Gamma Hydra system. Sarek even calls this area the “edge of Federation space.” So, we know that in Discovery’s future, the Neutral Zone has to exist. What better place to draw a boundary on your space map than the location where the war started?

The neutral zone is a big part of what keeps the Federation and the Klingons from having an all-out war in the original series and the original series films, specifically Star Trek VI. Perhaps Discovery will depict how exactly that zone got established.

All in all, if the story of the next few episodes of Discovery shakes out right, the crew won’t need to time-travel or retcon anything at all. Instead, future history will just take its course. And the only continuity problems they’re really left with is how this ship can be allowed to run around with an interdimensional spore drive that can get them anywhere in the blink of an eye.

Kilgharrah
February 2nd, 2018, 01:18 AM
You gotta love yourself some continuity. I really need to get back to the movies though coz I forgot all about them.

Flash525
February 2nd, 2018, 08:14 AM
After all, if Starfleet uses Mirror Georgiou’s ruthless tactics to scare the Klingons, they might be in better shape.I'm all for Mirror Georgiou helping to turn the war around, but I hope (considering she's practically guilty of multiple accounts of genocide) that they don't try and redeem the character.


The number of ships in Starfleet in the original Star Trek is never made clear, but it feels way smaller than what we see in Discovery. If the Klingons have wiped out nearly the entire fleet, then it would make sense that ten years later, Starfleet is just kind of getting back on its feet. In the Deep Space Nine episode “Trials and Tribble-ations” a time-traveling Jadzia Dax mentions “they really used to pack them in on these old ships,” in reference to Kirk’s USS Enterprise. Maybe after the Klingon War, Starfleet consolidated its resources in bigger ships with bigger crews. So far in Discovery, speaking about Constitution-Class ships (like the Enterprise or Defiant) is sort of a big deal. When Burnham and Tilly talk about the Enterprise in the episode “Lethe,” they make it sound like it’s huge.See, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Surely more is better - especially in times of war. If you've got 100 ships, you can (potentially) send ten ships (that's ten targets) to ten different sectors. If you've got a fleet of 50 ships, you're only going to be sending five ships (less targets) to ten different sectors - that, or you're going to have to send ten ships to five sectors and hope the other five survive the day.

When Starfleet has enemies like the Klingons and Romulans out there, reducing their fleet size to otherwise focus on lesser, yet more durable ships doesn't seem all that wise. Where's the show of force? Pretty sure the Klingons would respond better to a fleet of light cruiser ships than a lone heavy cruiser.

DigiFluid
February 2nd, 2018, 08:40 AM
I suppose it would depend on the sizes and armaments of the ships we’ve seen so far vs. the size/armaments of the Constitutions.

Maybe it could be that (without exactly accounting for measurements, just to draw comparisons), Shenzhou/Discovery/Klingon ships in DIS are like Princess Leia’s Corellian corvette in Star Wars—fast and tough in their own right and can hold its own against similar ships, but doesn’t stand a chance if it gets into a fight with a Star Destroyer (Constitution-class, to continue the analogy).

Starfleet wouldn’t have quite so big a fleet, and may not be in as big a hurry to construct one, if suddenly they can count on their shiny new Constitutions to take on four DIS Klingon ships without even breaking a sweat? And then a decade later, the Klingons have caught up and are fielding comparable battleships (the D7 cruisers from TOS) and we’re in the state of cold war that we also see in TOS?

I don’t know if it all works, just thinking out loud here.

P-90_177
February 2nd, 2018, 10:48 AM
Slight problem with the bigger ships theory though. I was gonna do a separate thread on this anyway but according to the official scaling of the Discovery and Shenzhou they are 700m and 430m respectively. Making them both bigger than the Constitution's established length of 288m. (Disco is actually longer than the Enterprise E)

Now admitedly half of the Disco's length is Warp Nacelles but to my own mind that indicates to me that the Constitution is more compact for the sake of manoeuvrability but packs a heavier punch in terms of weapons. Which I'm still perfectly ok with as a reason. Starfleet originally had bigger, more scientific led ships like the Shenzhou, Discovery and even the Kelvin and originally built the Constitution in the 2230's as a long range science and patrol vessel (as the ship that was on the 5 year missions) but then after the war with the Klingons they still did the 5 year missions but made the ships far more militarised and made sure they could pack a punch. The Constitution is essentially the Ironclad of her day. Hence why unlike the Discovery ships which have plenty of open space and lots of windows, including those big view screens, the Connie was more heavily armoured and reinforced.

Gollumpus
February 2nd, 2018, 08:12 PM
Didn't quite enjoy this one as much as the last few weeks, but there was still plenty good (or at least noteworthy) in it....

In no particular order:
Ha, Jason Isaacs is out. Totally called that in talk about last week's episode
Really lovely to see Saru stepping up as Captain
Also really lovely to see that Saru has forgiven Michael/she's earned back his respect
Bit odd that they just tossed away Mirror Stamets like that
Ooh, Mirror Georgiou in our universe...9 months too far forward... (I think I can guess what the plot of the final two episodes will be centred around)
No L'rell//Voq/Tyler update this week?
In a crisis, clock-is-ticking situation, Tilly had time to go get her (waaaay better Mirror) hair un-styled?
Hey, blue robot bridge officer finally had some dialogue!
Super disappointed we never got to see the Defiant
Loved seeing (our) Stamets back up to full strength and doing that I'm-going-to-ramble-through-the-kinks-of-this-problem-while-you-stare-at-me-dumbfounded thing again

I also really like Lt. Detmer--I hope she gets a bit more to do next season.


I'm thinking they are back in their own universe, but that their universe is not our universe (aka the prime universe).

Assuming the original series content is our universe (or TREK Prime), and the Terran universe in this episode is actually the same universe we all know and love from "Mirror, Mirror", then universe of "Destiny" could be a third universe. This would allow for the writers do pretty much anything they please in story development.

regards,
G.

P-90_177
February 2nd, 2018, 09:01 PM
I'm thinking they are back in their own universe, but that their universe is not our universe (aka the prime universe).

Assuming the original series content is our universe (or TREK Prime), and the Terran universe in this episode is actually the same universe we all know and love from "Mirror, Mirror", then universe of "Destiny" could be a third universe. This would allow for the writers do pretty much anything they please in story development.

regards,
G.

Producers confirmed early on that it is the Prime universe... But, all that being said in an infinite multiverse there are universes where all the same events occur but they look completely different.

Flash525
February 3rd, 2018, 08:40 AM
[snip]

I don’t know if it all works, just thinking out loud here.I get what you're saying, though I don't think it would be that simple; Starfleet suddenly having a few tough ships would still give the advantage to the other powers within the quadrant. Where warfare is concerned, quantity over quality must offer up the benefits, especially when you've got the Romulans and Klingons flying around up there with the ability to cloak themselves. Pretty sure Starfleet was involved in a war with the Tzenkethi around this time too - maybe a little later? Having a smaller, yet more durable fleet doesn't seem ... practical.

Needless to say, if this was indeed the case, then they didn't learn from it as they were quite happy sending the Miranda Class into battle some 100+ years later when up against the Dominion. By comparison the Shenzhou would be to the Miranda what the Constitution is to the Galaxy, or the other way around, but you know what I mean.


Slight problem with the bigger ships theory though. I was gonna do a separate thread on this anyway but according to the official scaling of the Discovery and Shenzhou they are 700m and 430m respectively. Making them both bigger than the Constitution's established length of 288m.Wow, really? I didn't know this. You'd think it would have made more sense to slot this show into the reboot universe; that would at least have explained the size variations - we know the reboot Connie is far lager than the TOS Connie.


I'm thinking they are back in their own universe, but that their universe is not our universe (aka the prime universe).
Producers confirmed early on that it is the Prime universe... But, all that being said in an infinite multiverse there are universes where all the same events occur but they look completely different.An unfortunate truth. STD is set in the same timeline as TOS Kirk, TNG Picard and ENT's Archer (etc). I'd fully agree that it doesn't seem like it fits, and I could ultimately list all the reasons why, but I guess that's irrelevant.

STD should have been a small screen reboot; they could have used existing lore to create a background for their new universe, much alike the reboot films did, and they'd then not have to worry about consistently lining up the timeline. The problem with setting a show, or this show up with existing lore is that, long term, they're going to have too many obstacles. STD is set what, ten years before Kirk's TOS? Not that it'll likely get ten seasons, but if it does, then what? We'd be seeing Constitutions and D7's everywhere, and if we didn't, everyone would be asking why. If/when STD wraps up and they someone decides to do a sequel, they're going to have to (again) slot it in carefully thus to avoid corrupting an already established timeline.

A reboot would have been so much easier on everyone; redesigned ships, redesigned species, redesigned clothing, the works, but no. It's a decision that'll forever baffle me.

DigiFluid
February 3rd, 2018, 09:00 AM
I get what you're saying, though I don't think it would be that simple; Starfleet suddenly having a few tough ships would still give the advantage to the other powers within the quadrant. Where warfare is concerned, quantity over quality must offer up the benefits, especially when you've got the Romulans and Klingons flying around up there with the ability to cloak themselves. Pretty sure Starfleet was involved in a war with the Tzenkethi around this time too - maybe a little later? Having a smaller, yet more durable fleet doesn't seem ... practical.
Yeah, I know what you're saying. In wartime, 10 top of the line tanks that cost a fortune are never going to be the military's first choice if someone else offers them 100 so-so tanks at half the price.

Re: Tzenkethi conflict, I don't think there's any fight with them at this point. I mean granted maybe we've just never heard about it before, but the only time Trek has mentioned them in the past is when Sisko said he fought in the war against them when he was younger. And since Sisko isn't even born till something like 75 years after when Discovery is set...


An unfortunate truth. STD is set in the same timeline as TOS Kirk, TNG Picard and ENT's Archer (etc). I'd fully agree that it doesn't seem like it fits, and I could ultimately list all the reasons why, but I guess that's irrelevant.
Nah I think that's just being needlessly nitpicky (though that's what us Trekkies are best at, isn't it? :D)

We all had the same conversations about Enterprise when it was first on. It took four seasons for it to finally start linking itself to the world we knew from TOS, which rendered a lot of the early complaints moot. Not all of them, I know, but enough to make lots of them look frivolous in hindsight.

And now, 13 years after it came to its ignominious end, virtually nobody bats an eye: "Yeah, it's Star Trek. And?"

Flash525
February 4th, 2018, 08:14 AM
Tzenkethi conflict, I don't think there's any fight with them at this point. I mean granted maybe we've just never heard about it before, but the only time Trek has mentioned them in the past is when Sisko said he fought in the war against them when he was younger. And since Sisko isn't even born till something like 75 years after when Discovery is set...You're right in that Sisko fought in (a) war against them, it's implied on Memory Alpha that the war Sisko fought in wasn't the first, and that there had been a couple of conflicts with them. Needless to say, regarding a TOS era war, I had mixed up the Tzenkethi with the Knziti (a species that only made an appearance in the animated series); not entirely sure that's considered canon.


Nah I think that's just being needlessly nitpicky (though that's what us Trekkies are best at, isn't it? :D)It's a damn fine attribute if you ask me! ;)


We all had the same conversations about Enterprise when it was first on. It took four seasons for it to finally start linking itself to the world we knew from TOS, which rendered a lot of the early complaints moot. Not all of them, I know, but enough to make lots of them look frivolous in hindsight.

And now, 13 years after it came to its ignominious end, virtually nobody bats an eye: "Yeah, it's Star Trek. And?"I suppose you're right to some degree, though (as far as I remember) Archer and the NX-01 didn't invent technology - never to be heard about again, nor did it (seemingly) change history; whilst not defeated, the Federation certainly seems to be in some serious need of help at this point. It'll sure be interesting to see how this all unfolds, and where season 2 takes us.

As discussed earlier, there's a lot going around that S2 is going to focus more on exploration and traditional trek, which I hope is not the case; I don't mind exploration, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather move on from traditional trek. Season 1 of Discovery has been great, and I feel a traditional touch is going to ruin it and numb it down.

GodAtum
February 4th, 2018, 12:49 PM
A lot of us where wrong in saying that the mycinial network needed to be destroyed because it does not exist in any future Star Trek.

Also, remember the ep when Burnham talked to the Klingon rebel leader on the planet. I hope they don't forget about that story line, and use her knowledge to end the war peacefully.

I was rolling my eyes through the entire ep though, and this post sums my thoughts up nicely:

I keep asking myself: what’s left? Where can we go from here that will deliver on those early promises that Discovery seems to have thrown away? I want to love Discovery whole-heartedly, and I have loved many, many things about its journey so far. But at the moment, it’s hard not to feel like all of the foundations we thought we knew were actually built on quicksand, and we’re going under.

Kilgharrah
February 4th, 2018, 01:08 PM
You know it's actually a good thing when what you expect to happen on a show doesn't really happen. That's called good writing.