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GateWorld
November 25th, 2017, 04:38 PM
<DIV STYLE="width:80%; text-align:center; margin:5px auto 10px auto; padding:0;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/twice-upon-a-time/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/twice-upon-a-time-300x225.jpg" STYLE="float:right; width:250px; margin:2px 0 5px 15px; border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em; color:#888;">DOCTOR WHO - SPECIALS</SPAN>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:1.5em; font-weight:bold;"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/twice-upon-a-time/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">TWICE UPON A TIME</A></SPAN>
<SPAN STYLE="font-size:0.8em;">CHRISTMAS 2017</SPAN>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0; text-align:left;">Fighting off his regeneration, the Doctor comes face-to-face with his original self at the South Pole -- along with a World War I soldier out of time, sending the Doctors on a mission to unravel the temporal anomaly.</DIV>
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DigiFluid
December 25th, 2017, 12:07 PM
Surprisingly low-key. Brilliant all-around (though I thought Jenna Coleman was a bit awkwardly shoehorned in). Lots of lovely callbacks to past Who.

And I think I adore Jodie Whittaker already.

Coco Pops
December 25th, 2017, 07:08 PM
I loved it....... At least everything except Clara. She's not one of my favourites.

I liked about 99% of the episode. Clara ruined it for me. I just can't stand Clara sorry guys.

I enjoyed this one, yeah the lines about being sexist well that I handwaved. Rusty .... Oh Rusty I love Rusty. I wish a Dalek was a travelling companion.

What did that screen say when she hit the button, something about some kind of failure? What did she say before that, sounded like "brilliant" or something.

I will have more time to process and maybe edit more here.... I'm going to watch it again tonight when it is on TV. I watched via ABC Iview just now.


Overall 7/10

tomstone
December 25th, 2017, 09:37 PM
Surprisingly low-key. Brilliant all-around (though I thought Jenna Coleman was a bit awkwardly shoehorned in). Lots of lovely callbacks to past Who.

And I think I adore Jodie Whittaker already.

Completly agree. I am rewatching it right now and I really love it overall. Jodie was underused as was to be expected. Going by previeus Doctors introductions.

We will see how this continues, I am excited at least.

Coco Pops
December 26th, 2017, 01:28 AM
I was musing on this earlier today and not sure if to comment again but I did wonder had this been a series final it would have been good either way. If the Doctor had chosen to die as per his choice it would have been a great send off, only we'd see him flying off and as he died the TARDIS would slowly shut down and drift in space. That would be a perfect series ending.

Howcome we had that armistice in World War 1 but that kind of thing hasn't happened ever again?

Annoyed
December 26th, 2017, 08:41 AM
The sexist bit didn't track for me. Yes, the Captain would have been surprised by Potts' behavior, as he was a product of the early 20th century. But the first Doctor shouldn't have been; surely a time traveler had been to some point after the mid-late 20th century when women's roles expanded.

And I didn't expect to see much of the new Doctor. Didn't they do the falling out of the Tardis bit with Matt Smith?

Glad they worked Clara in somehow, I rather liked her as a companion.

I never warmed up to Capaldi as the Doctor, so I'm looking forward to the new Doctor. Her first comment of "Brilliant" shows a sarcastic nature that I may warm to quickly. Can't wait to see the next season.

Gatefan1976
December 26th, 2017, 05:06 PM
The sexist bit didn't track for me. Yes, the Captain would have been surprised by Potts' behavior, as he was a product of the early 20th century. But the first Doctor shouldn't have been; surely a time traveler had been to some point after the mid-late 20th century when women's roles expanded.

Yes, but the shows -creators- had not, and Hartnell's doctor was still a product of the writers perceptions.


And I didn't expect to see much of the new Doctor. Didn't they do the falling out of the Tardis bit with Matt Smith?

Yup.


Glad they worked Clara in somehow, I rather liked her as a companion.

Meh, too "ultimate superpower without me there is no you" Mary Sue for me.


I never warmed up to Capaldi as the Doctor, so I'm looking forward to the new Doctor. Her first comment of "Brilliant" shows a sarcastic nature that I may warm to quickly. Can't wait to see the next season.
Very David Tennant, and given Jodie has worked with him on broadchurch, perhaps an intentional nod?

P-90_177
December 26th, 2017, 07:55 PM
Howcome we had that armistice in World War 1 but that kind of thing hasn't happened ever again?

It's not entirely true. I mean the 1914 Christmas truce was fairly widespread, but there were attempts throughout the war to repeat it and indeed in the Christmas' of 1915 and 16 there were sporadic truces on a smaller scale.

To borrow from elsewhere too:

Although the popular tendency has been to see the December 1914 Christmas Truces as unique and therefore of romantic rather than political significance, they have also been interpreted as part of the widespread non-co-operation with the war spirit and conduct by serving soldiers. In his book on trench warfare, historian Tony Ashworth describes what he calls the 'live and let live system'. Complicated local truces and agreements not to fire at each other were developed by men along the front throughout the war. These often began with agreement not to attack each other at tea, meal or washing times, and in some places became so developed that whole sections of the front would see few casualties for extended periods of time. This system, Ashworth argues, 'gave soldiers some control over the conditions of their existence.'[53] The December 1914 Christmas Truces then can be seen as not unique, but as the most dramatic example of non-co-operation with the war spirit that included refusal to fight, unofficial truces, mutinies, strikes, and peace protests.

However, if the question becomes why it never happened after World War One, there are several factors. First of all was how senseless the War was. There was no cause like the fight against oppression that World War 2 brought, or at least not nearly to the same degree, it was just two armies that were told to fight without really understanding over what. Then there is the fact that these men were told to hold out in trenches for months, being so close to the other side that they could quite easily yell over or hear conversations. Being so close to another group of people like that can surely make you start to identify with them that you simply can't in an open battlefield with both sides shooting at each other.

Annoyed
December 27th, 2017, 04:21 AM
Yes, but the shows -creators- had not, and Hartnell's doctor was still a product of the writers perceptions.
If this was the early 1960's, I'd buy that. But this episode was written and produced in 2017, by modern era writers.

Gatefan1976
December 27th, 2017, 01:30 PM
If this was the early 1960's, I'd buy that. But this episode was written and produced in 2017, by modern era writers.
He is supposed to be Hartnell's doctor, with the same sensibilities displayed by Hartnell during his tenure as the Doctor, it would make no sense for him to suddenly change his behaviour.

Annoyed
December 27th, 2017, 06:17 PM
He is supposed to be Hartnell's doctor, with the same sensibilities displayed by Hartnell during his tenure as the Doctor, it would make no sense for him to suddenly change his behaviour.
Hartnell's Doctor Was written by men and women in the early 60's. His worldview was limited by the mindset of the people who wrote him. Material written for that character today would include today's expectations. Why would they simply accept the worldview of the original writers?

Gatefan1976
December 27th, 2017, 06:27 PM
Hartnell's Doctor Was written by men and women in the early 60's. His worldview was limited by the mindset of the people who wrote him. Material written for that character today would include today's expectations. Why would they simply accept the worldview of the original writers?

Because that worldview formed the character of Hartnell's doctor. Remember, this story is a slice of frozen time, from just before Hartnell regenerated, so WHY would his character and mannerisms suddenly change to a more modern perspective?

Annoyed
December 28th, 2017, 04:43 AM
Just as A.C. Clarke updated his fictional "universe" surrounding Jupiter and its surrounding moons in the sequel(s) to 2001 to take into account real-life discoveries made by our unmanned probes and other tools, I can't see why the writers couldn't take new information into account when continuing Hartnell's Doctor.

Gatefan1976
December 28th, 2017, 04:51 AM
Just as A.C. Clarke updated his fictional "universe" surrounding Jupiter and its surrounding moons in the sequel(s) to 2001 to take into account real-life discoveries made by our unmanned probes and other tools, I can't see why the writers couldn't take new information into account when continuing Hartnell's Doctor.

It breaks character man. Hartnell's doctor was a product of his time, and not only that, he was the youngest doctor. To give him the sensibilities of -any- doctor from NuWho would be wrong, especially Capaldi's doctor, who has lived over a thousand years longer.
Additionally, they are not "continuing" Hartnell's doctor, they are taking a slice of his life out just before regeneration and at that time, he had shown no "modern' morality or more's. You have to stay true to the character at the time.

maneth
December 28th, 2017, 09:16 PM
Brilliant episode. Easily my favorite Christmas Special so far.

Much as I liked Clara as a companion to start with, I must admit that her appearance in this one was both unnecessary and felt artificial somehow, not to mention that I felt the character outstayed her welcome a bit... That said, Clara has a lot of fans so many people were surely happy to see her. But I was very happy to see Bill again. It's a shame she only got one season. I liked that there was no alien invasion and that the whole episode wasn't about celebrating Christmas.

David Bradley does a great impression of Hartnell's Doctor. I guess I should give the Big Finish audio dramas a go...

aretood2
December 29th, 2017, 06:06 AM
It breaks character man. Hartnell's doctor was a product of his time, and not only that, he was the youngest doctor. To give him the sensibilities of -any- doctor from NuWho would be wrong, especially Capaldi's doctor, who has lived over a thousand years longer.
Additionally, they are not "continuing" Hartnell's doctor, they are taking a slice of his life out just before regeneration and at that time, he had shown no "modern' morality or more's. You have to stay true to the character at the time.

Why not simply retcon that part of his personality? I found it amusing though. It's like you go back to a younger phase of your life when you were in a...phase and felt embarrassed that you ever acted like that. It's quite simply possible that the young doctor for whatever reason felt cool with those kind of things and why he didn't venture beyond those points in time where anything else would matter. Also, I've never been a fan of the idea that progression is linear, that societies never scale back or that a technologically advanced society isn't capable of closed minded beliefs. All of those ideas are rather...colonial/imperialist rubbish if you ask me.

Ian-S
December 31st, 2017, 05:19 AM
I only caught the last 10 minutes so what I saw was a bit huh? but I do like what I saw of the new doctor, must make time to watch it all soon, although I did get a dejavu moment when she fell out at the end.

aretood2
December 31st, 2017, 09:48 AM
That did kinda take one out of the moment. Her tenth like "Brilliant" as well (But that one was worth it).

Coco Pops
December 31st, 2017, 08:37 PM
To be fair every Doctor since 10 has mangled the TARDIS during a regeneration.... The poor girl has probably had enough of this and decided throwing the Doctor out was the only course of action.

P-90_177
December 31st, 2017, 10:28 PM
To be fair every Doctor since 10 has mangled the TARDIS during a regeneration.... The poor girl has probably had enough of this and decided throwing the Doctor out was the only course of action.

Head canon accepted.

aretood2
January 1st, 2018, 11:18 AM
I like that explanation too. "Nope, no more. Out you go!"

pscard
January 25th, 2018, 07:24 AM
He is supposed to be Hartnell's doctor, with the same sensibilities displayed by Hartnell during his tenure as the Doctor, it would make no sense for him to suddenly change his behaviour.

I agree!

Gatefan1976
January 25th, 2018, 08:41 AM
Why not simply retcon that part of his personality? I found it amusing though. It's like you go back to a younger phase of your life when you were in a...phase and felt embarrassed that you ever acted like that. It's quite simply possible that the young doctor for whatever reason felt cool with those kind of things and why he didn't venture beyond those points in time where anything else would matter. Also, I've never been a fan of the idea that progression is linear, that societies never scale back or that a technologically advanced society isn't capable of closed minded beliefs. All of those ideas are rather...colonial/imperialist rubbish if you ask me.

Dude, the fact it is going back to "then" is why it should NOT be retconned, it's where the doctor was THEN Vs where the doctor is NOW.
As for society. it's irrelevant, the doctor is not part of time lord society so their failures have no bearing on the doctor.

aretood2
January 26th, 2018, 01:44 PM
Dude, the fact it is going back to "then" is why it should NOT be retconned, it's where the doctor was THEN Vs where the doctor is NOW.
As for society. it's irrelevant, the doctor is not part of time lord society so their failures have no bearing on the doctor.

Was he raised by wolves?

Gatefan1976
January 26th, 2018, 05:35 PM
Was he raised by wolves?

No, but he has stayed away from TL society for most of his life, oftentimes -because- the Doctor viewed it as regressive and puffed up pomp and circumstance.

Coco Pops
January 27th, 2018, 01:19 AM
Doctor 10 mentioned a couple of times having a family back home and his parents. I am pretty sure he had his own children back on Galifrey too but for whatever reason abandoned them.

aretood2
January 27th, 2018, 02:31 PM
No, but he has stayed away from TL society for most of his life, oftentimes -because- the Doctor viewed it as regressive and puffed up pomp and circumstance.

As opposed to his sexism? But I think you missed my point point early on.


Doctor 10 mentioned a couple of times having a family back home and his parents. I am pretty sure he had his own children back on Galifrey too but for whatever reason abandoned them.

Well, he does have a granddaughter.

Gatefan1976
January 27th, 2018, 02:39 PM
As opposed to his sexism? But I think you missed my point point early on.

I didn't miss it, the doctor was written that way at the time, he died that way as well.

Coco Pops
January 28th, 2018, 01:21 AM
[COLOR="#000080"]Well, he does have a granddaughter.


That would be Susan the forgotten companion..... He chucked her out the TARDIS and left her

pscard
February 12th, 2018, 08:53 AM
As opposed to his sexism? But I think you missed my point point early on.



Well, he does have a granddaughter.
Which means he must have had at least one child of his own, not including 'Jenny'.

Coco Pops
February 12th, 2018, 06:11 PM
Which means he must have had at least one child of his own, not including 'Jenny'.


I think her name was Miranda or something from the expanded universe of novels and audio recordings.

gatechick
October 31st, 2018, 07:02 AM
Hartnell's Doctor Was written by men and women in the early 60's. His worldview was limited by the mindset of the people who wrote him. Material written for that character today would include today's expectations. Why would they simply accept the worldview of the original writers?

I actually thought it was brilliant to do it that way. It showed the growth the Doctor had throughout the series and provided some continuity. If he was just written with modern sensibilities, I think it would take away from the changes the Doctor has been through, as well as the effect his companions had on him.

Coco Pops
October 31st, 2018, 05:44 PM
Don't forget Ian and Barbara poor things nearly got thrown out of the TARDIS while it was in flight.