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GateWorld
April 7th, 2017, 09:43 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="500" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/agents-of-shield/s4/no-regrets/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/no-regrets-300x225.jpg" WIDTH="225" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. - SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/agents-of-shield/s4/no-regrets/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">NO REGRETS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 418</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">When the Patriot goes in search of a Hydra prisoner, Agent May agrees to become a living weapon to stop S.H.I.E.L.D.'s leader. Jemma tries to motivate S.H.I.E.L.D. by sharing the truth about their reality.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/agents-of-shield/s4/no-regrets/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

garhkal
April 18th, 2017, 08:38 PM
So Aida/Queen Hidra can leave the framework anytime she wants.
May fighting Mace juiced up was an awesome fight.. BUT i was surprised mace was just a puncher. You would have thought he "by now" would have learned some hand to hand.
AND Wow, mace went out a hero till the end. And i actually was shocked that may seems to be coming around. And i liked her nod towards Mace.
GREAT to see Trip back. And i loved Phil fighting in the place.

And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

Bhousden
April 18th, 2017, 09:36 PM
So Aida/Queen Hidra can leave the framework anytime she wants.
May fighting Mace juiced up was an awesome fight.. BUT i was surprised mace was just a puncher. You would have thought he "by now" would have learned some hand to hand.
AND Wow, mace went out a hero till the end. And i actually was shocked that may seems to be coming around. And i liked her nod towards Mace.
GREAT to see Trip back. And i loved Phil fighting in the place.

And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

Remember in the real world that there are crystals that cause terragenesis to potential inhumans without killing non inhumans. Like with the Russian and senator Nadeer. So yeah.....

Starsaber
April 19th, 2017, 06:44 AM
And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

From some of the stuff they established earlier in the season, his dad wasn't really involved in his life in the real world. From what we heard from him in this episode, he was pretty abusive. Fitz probably didn't know enough about that when his biggest regret was not having a relationship with him, so that would have changed how he was raised.

Also, the only Terrigen crystals that killed humans were the synthetic ones made in Afterlife since they had fragments of the Diviner they got the crystal seeds from in them.

Teddybrown
April 19th, 2017, 07:53 AM
Damn, at least Mace went out a hero...

Looks like Mays coming around and Daisys getting her powers back. Fitz will be the hardest to get back.

Infinite-Possibilities
April 19th, 2017, 10:44 AM
OK, a lot to unpack here. I'm getting the sense that the moral of this season is going to be that everyone needs their regrets and the horrible things that happened to them because without them they'd be completely different and possibly super evil.

I don't think I really buy it. Personality is a very complicated subject, influenced by a great deal of factors and unique for everyone. The premise that Fitz would be a sadist and May would be a clueless imbecile if he was raised by his father and if she saved that inhuman girl is rather thin to me. Particularly if there was supposedly no other changes to the world. The other question is how do "the algorithms" decide that the girl May saved went on to kill others?

I read an article just a week or two ago that suggested that might not have any real core personalities, we could just become potentially anything in the right situation. I could tell that the language was couched in things like "maybe" and "what if," because I'm pretty sure we don't yet have a fully conclusive understanding of the science in real life. If that is the fundamental idea of the story though, I'm almost beginning to wonder if this actually is the end of Fitz/Simmons, even if they do get him back to normal.

I actually forgot Mace was one of the real agents in the Framework. I thought May was fighting a digital avatar of him. It makes the scene make more sense now. It's a shame, I actually really liked the Framework version of him.

I also am actually rather enjoying Framework Ward. But ultimately the question of whether this is all real boils down to two scenarios. Are the characters in the Framework alive? Do they have feelings? Because based on our current understanding, they are not. They only act like they do. Which means that any "pain" they feel is no more real than robo-Fitz screaming as if he was being murdered to get Gemma to stop stabbing him. The only difference is they don't have anything that would make them break character.

However, if they do have feelings then they are alive. Does Hope really love Mack? Is Ward genuinely distressed at the idea of not being real? If so, then they are alive and they are real. That however presents us with different issues. Does the Framework have the equivalent of 7 Billion synthetic brains all the equivalent of ADA's? Does that mean they killed the Framework version of Skye by replacing her with Daisy? It would maybe also mean that Mack arguably has a responsibility not to abandon his daughter by leaving the Framework.

At the end of the day, though. This "Agents of Hydra" scenario very much feels like it's written specifically to be shocking and dramatic, rather than an attempt realistically extrapolate what would happen to the world and characters if a few things were changed.

Especially since for the premise to be that Hydra conquered the world, then when creating the Framework, ADA would probably have had to look at several characters in the Marvel Universe and done this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLR5u_Tw8lA

Unless of course the implication is that Fitz was the key to the undoing of the Avengers and I'd believe that less than anything else in this episode. :rolleyes:

Then again, as time goes on I'm starting to get the sense the writers of the shows and movies don't always really try to connect them a whole lot.


EDIT: Oh and it was funny to hear the cameo from Backshi for a moment there, did they get him back just to those few seconds of voice work and not appear or was that taken from earlier episodes.

garhkal
April 19th, 2017, 11:48 AM
Remember in the real world that there are crystals that cause terragenesis to potential inhumans without killing non inhumans. Like with the Russian and senator Nadeer. So yeah.....

I always thought it was the crystals raw self that did that..


From some of the stuff they established earlier in the season, his dad wasn't really involved in his life in the real world. From what we heard from him in this episode, he was pretty abusive. Fitz probably didn't know enough about that when his biggest regret was not having a relationship with him, so that would have changed how he was raised.

Yea. It did seem like dad kept Fitz on a leash, with reminding him occasionally about whipping, straps etc..


Damn, at least Mace went out a hero...

And that death of Mace, was what seemed to finally bring may back to the "Light side"..
I wonder, how his death in the framework (and thus the real world ala the matrix) will impact the team when they get back TO the real world.



Looks like Mays coming around and Daisys getting her powers back. Fitz will be the hardest to get back.

To be honest, i am not sure they can win Fitz back..


However, if they do have feelings then they are alive. Does Hope really love Mack? Is Ward genuinely distressed at the idea of not being real? If so, then they are alive and they are real. That however presents us with different issues. Does the Framework have the equivalent of 7 Billion synthetic brains all the equivalent of ADA's? Does that mean they killed the Framework version of Skye by replacing her with Daisy? It would maybe also mean that Mack arguably has a responsibility not to abandon his daughter by leaving the Framework.

As i said earlier in the other thread (EP 417), i am starting to think the Framework isnt just a digital realm, but is in essence an entire alternate universe.. BUT one where if you die there, you die here (for those jacked in that is)..
And as for Mack and co. I am unsure if his responsibility to Hope will mean he declines coming back to the real world.

As for ward. I wonder if that genuine distress, is a mark up of all the minds of gemma/phil/daisy etc, WISHING he had proper regrets about turning bad..

Bhousden
April 20th, 2017, 01:54 PM
I personally don't think that Aida "jacks" into the Matrix, but rather is linked via a wireless interface to her FW avatar. That's the only way that I could see her "monitoring" both worlds.

garhkal
April 20th, 2017, 10:58 PM
If she was monitoring both worlds, wouldn't she know what's going on in the real world courtesy of all her bots??

Infinite-Possibilities
April 20th, 2017, 11:03 PM
It's possible Madam Hydra is just a program in the Framework that just pretends it's ADA, as well.

Bhousden
April 20th, 2017, 11:13 PM
If she was monitoring both worlds, wouldn't she know what's going on in the real world courtesy of all her bots??

Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

Jeffer
April 21st, 2017, 08:47 AM
Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

She was monitoring the vitals of all the people his flat lined so she shut his off.

meredithchandler73
April 21st, 2017, 12:46 PM
OK, a lot to unpack here. I'm getting the sense that the moral of this season is going to be that everyone needs their regrets and the horrible things that happened to them because without them they'd be completely different and possibly super evil.

I don't think I really buy it. Personality is a very complicated subject, influenced by a great deal of factors and unique for everyone. The premise that Fitz would be a sadist and May would be a clueless imbecile if he was raised by his father and if she saved that inhuman girl is rather thin to me. Particularly if there was supposedly no other changes to the world. The other question is how do "the algorithms" decide that the girl May saved went on to kill others?

I think that an event or a person could definitely change the course of someone's life. You hear about people who used to hang with a bad crowd as a kid or teen. And it took a shocking event (a fellow gang member dying) or a person (a teacher or family member) to get them to go on a different path. Radcliffe mentioned how one sentence could change a life. "I love you." What if Fitz's father told Fitz, "I love you" and then Fitz grew up wanting his father's approval, to be like his father.

As for the Framework deciding that Katya would go on to kill others if she survived, I don't think that's much of a stretch based on her behavior in the real world.


Unless of course the implication is that Fitz was the key to the undoing of the Avengers and I'd believe that less than anything else in this episode. :rolleyes:

Actually, I think the lack of Coulson in SHIELD is a pretty good reason for the undoing of the Avengers - certainly his pivotal role in The Avengers film, but also his contact with some of the Avengers in their previous films.

garhkal
April 21st, 2017, 01:02 PM
It's possible Madam Hydra is just a program in the Framework that just pretends it's ADA, as well.

That could be.


BTW, was anyone else getting goose bumps seeing Trip again!?


Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

IIRC that was only done after may had reported back in that the patriot was dead though..


Actually, I think the lack of Coulson in SHIELD is a pretty good reason for the undoing of the Avengers - certainly his pivotal role in The Avengers film, but also his contact with some of the Avengers in their previous films.

Very true. Plus if Hydra had come out, doyou even think some of the avengers would even exist as regular heroes (stark, Hulk, Capt)? Widow might now be a hydra agent, same with hawkeye.. Thor.. he might not have been banished..

Infinite-Possibilities
April 21st, 2017, 06:17 PM
Not everyone born with cruel or flawed parents necessarily becomes that way themselves, or would automatically believe in their ways of doing things. I mean, people are complicated. Often parental relationships can be complicated. If one believes Fitz is someone who's entire personality can be boiled down to being raised by his mother instead of his father, I guess it makes sense, but it still strikes me as a stretch.

I mean I think I read an interview by one of the writers on the show that said this version of Fitz is different because his father prevented him from having main Fitz's "womanly intuition" or something to that effect, and that struck me as kind of a shallow explanation for him being a murderous sadist. I mean, not everyone with a hard parent who believes sentimentality is a weakness becomes a psychopath.

Coulson never really played a crucial role in saving the day in any of the films. Maybe Avengers 1, but even that is questionable. He was a background character in Iron Man 1. In Iron Man 2 he was guarding Tony Stark because Nick Fury told him to. I guess, maybe if he wasn't in Thor, then another agent might not have let Thor go, but we can't know that for sure. Phil was hardly the only good one. I don't see why Black Widow or Hawkeye or even May, frankly would become a HYDRA Agent just because Phil Coulson wasn't there.

Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.

Plus, if there were no Avengers, then shouldn't "the algorithms" need to account for the other threats they defeated? Did Loki conquer the Earth? Did Malekath remake the universe?

garhkal
April 21st, 2017, 09:03 PM
Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.

Plus, if there were no Avengers, then shouldn't "the algorithms" need to account for the other threats they defeated? Did Loki conquer the Earth? Did Malekath remake the universe?

It would be nice to know exactly when 'shield got defeated' by Hydra in the framework, AND if it takes into account Loki, Thor etc...

Ian-S
April 23rd, 2017, 02:09 PM
She was monitoring the vitals of all the people his flat lined so she shut his off.

She also seemed a little taken aback when it hapoened, as if she didn't know he was dead until she got to him (she checked the others first, surely if she was aware of his death, she'd have gone to his pod directly).

I wondered whether Madam Hydra was in effect a clone of Aida, who she could plug into every so often to give/receive status updates.

Infinite-Possibilities
April 23rd, 2017, 02:25 PM
It would be nice to know exactly when 'shield got defeated' by Hydra in the framework, AND if it takes into account Loki, Thor etc...

I think the problem is that they are trying to suggest that this is a realistic extrapolation of their lives created by predictive algorithms rather than just a counterfactual scenario that Aida made up because she can make up whatever she wants in the Framework, because now it raises questions like this.

But I suppose that would undermine their attempt to tell their "this is really how Fitz and Ward and May would be if their lives were different" story.

Starsaber
April 24th, 2017, 06:53 AM
Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.


From what I understand, Hydra was able to accellerate their plan in the Framework world because of an incident involving the girl May saved from Bahrain. She saved the girl shortly before Iron Man 1, so I could see that movie happening, but Hydra making their move before the others. From what I remember from Coulson's lesson back in the first episode, Hydra basically convinced people that SHIELD knew the girl was an Inhuman and deliberately put her in a place where she could hurt a bunch more people. I could see May trying to make up for her mistake (and her reaction to kids being endangered by Hydra in this episode kind of follows from her feeling guilty about the deaths caused by the girl she saved).

Infinite-Possibilities
April 24th, 2017, 08:55 AM
But would she believe she should try to make up for it by joining the Nazis and helping murder all her fellow SHIELD agents?

garhkal
April 24th, 2017, 01:34 PM
Depends on how much guilt she felt?

Another thing. Since Hydra came out right around the time just before IM1. As the inhuman threat was put out earlier (cause of that gal), does that then mean Afterlife (the inhuman safe spot) is no more? What of that inhuman temple? Or the diviners??

Cmdr Sean Coll
April 24th, 2017, 03:16 PM
Do you think with Daisy undergoing Terrigenesis in the framework that would trigger her body in the real world to go through Terrigenesis to heal her wounds from escaping the LMD's in the playground??

Ian-S
April 24th, 2017, 03:27 PM
Isn't Daisy going through Terrigenesis in the framework a plot hole? Since Aida already told her she wouldn't give her those powers (I think the exact line was "I can't allow you to have your powers here"), implying Aida could control events if she wanted?

I mean it's a bit silly, super evil AI that works out a loophole in her prime directive enabling her to kill someone her program specifically forbids, is also able to build the matrix and occupy it with millions of individual NPC's, yet forgets to write in a failsafe to stop one of her biggest enemies from obtaining or using her powers, surely she could have written into the Teragin code "if occupant = daisy { null } else { transform}".

Surely that's rule #1 in the Evil Scientists Guide to Ruling the World handbook? :lol:

garhkal
April 24th, 2017, 10:11 PM
True but we DID see Skye going into the coocoon.. Perhaps when she comes out she doesn't have her powers though.. We shall just wait and see.

Ian-S
April 25th, 2017, 06:57 AM
Now that would be a twist, closely followed by Aida walking into the room and saying "I told you I couldn't allow you to have your powers here" shortly followed by May (freshly juice jacked) knocking her (Aida) into next weeks episode...

One can hope I suppose :lol:

garhkal
April 25th, 2017, 12:43 PM
Here's a twisted thought. What if Madam hydra is NOT aida, but agnes, who is really the one in control?

yukin1990
May 2nd, 2017, 11:10 PM
Is Director Mace Dead in the real world too?? I am starting to like him.
And May start helping the resistance now!!!
Also at the end Skye going through Terrigenesis, Quake is back again!!!!

garhkal
May 3rd, 2017, 11:54 AM
Is Director Mace Dead in the real world too?? I am starting to like him.


Yup. Poor mace died in both worlds. We saw his machine monitoring his vitals had flatlined, and aida disconnected him.