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View Full Version : (possible mega-spoiler for season 7 (or 8)) Euron?



SoulReaver
July 18th, 2016, 05:57 PM
...could he be the famous 'valonqar' prophesied in Cersei's curse? http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/chacha1910.gif

before dismissing it out of hand just think about it for a sec lords & ladies of GW, it makes sense given the state of things as of end of season 6
furthermore it's fully consistent with the storyline (so far)

Gen. Chris
July 18th, 2016, 11:17 PM
I highly doubt it since that word means little brother. She thinks it is supposed to be Tyrion, but it is more than likely going to be Jaime.

SoulReaver
July 19th, 2016, 02:53 AM
that's the snag the prophecy says "the little brother" but never specifies whose brother
Euron is Balon's little brother

Gen. Chris
July 20th, 2016, 01:02 AM
The curse from the books is

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Why would that ever refer to someone she has never met? And more importantly, someone who isn't a relative?

(Though, using "drowned" could always be a reference to a Greyjoy, but still).

I mean, if we are going to go by little brothers then I guess Tommen would have had a shot at it...or Eddard...or even Bran. Though Bran would have been oddly poetic.

SoulReaver
July 20th, 2016, 03:25 AM
precisely he chose his words carefully

'the valonqar' not 'your valonqar'

Jaime would never kill her & Tyrion is too far away (besides I've trouble seeing him able to pull that off, more like she would strangle him especially now)

Cersei's alone now with no allies (her last ally the soon-extinct house Tyrell is now an enemy)

and with Dany sailing toward westeros Cersei's done for - unless she makes new alliances

that leaves the ironborn (for whom Dany's no longer an option) she will have to marry Euron. who has the dragonbinder btw, convenient

Euron being an ironborn of course he'll betray her & want all the power for himself
prophecy comes full circle QED

Gen. Chris
July 20th, 2016, 11:37 AM
...Except it would make more sense at this point for Jaime to kill her. She did precisely what he earned the moniker "Kingslayer" for trying to prevent, and it led to the death of their last child. He's more than likely lost his patience with her.

I think you are really reaching in trying to make this work.

SoulReaver
July 20th, 2016, 01:29 PM
try to find the simplest explanations
when the simplest explanations don't fit, reach further

(besides there's no need to "reach" if no one can even prove its inconsistency lol)

you're mixing up terms, Jaime is a kingslayer but no kinslayer
he was even willing to kill an innocent kid - Arya - at Cersei's behest
to say he will kill Cersei (let alone be able to if he even wants to, with only 1 hand - or will some red witch grow back his hand?) now that's reaching

Gen. Chris
July 20th, 2016, 10:06 PM
(Bran, not Arya, simple mistake I suppose)



you're mixing up terms, Jaime is a kingslayer but no kinslayer


That would be wrong. He already killed a cousin in the second season, which is bad enough.

You can strangle someone with one hand, it's not like it takes a tremendous amount of force to put enough pressure on the neck.

You have not really offered any concrete reason as to why Euron would be the one to kill her other than saying that the signs point to it...what signs? He had three scenes in season six, and the last we saw of him was ordering his followers to build a thousand ships (which in and of itself is a nigh-impossible feat considering several factors). That's all we have seen of him, yet you claim that he will be the one to strangle her when it is considerably more likely that it will be Jaime if you consider the factors that I have pointed out to you.

SoulReaver
July 21st, 2016, 04:08 AM
attempted murder of Bran was a spur of the moment thing but I'm almost certain I recall Cersei telling Jaime to find & kill Arya. may be mixing up with something else though


That would be wrong. He already killed a cousin in the second season, which is bad enough.

You can strangle someone with one hand, it's not like it takes a tremendous amount of force to put enough pressure on the neck.

You have not really offered any concrete reason as to why Euron would be the one to kill her other than saying that the signs point to it...what signs? He had three scenes in season six, and the last we saw of him was ordering his followers to build a thousand ships (which in and of itself is a nigh-impossible feat considering several factors). That's all we have seen of him, yet you claim that he will be the one to strangle her when it is considerably more likely that it will be Jaime if you consider the factors that I have pointed out to you.well yeah signs - hence just a theory but it's valid & consistent. only GRRM & the show writers know the real deal obviously
if Cersei wants to last more than a day as queen & with almost everyone arraigned against her including her former allies she needs alliances - who will she ally herself with? the night king? she doesn't have many options and Euron is the most obvious one (actually it's the only one)

conversely there's still no concrete evidence that Jaime will be the one to do it & more evidence that he'd be the last one to do it. one of Cersei's few qualities is that she cared for her kids but there's nothing so far in the show suggesting Jaime cared as much for his secret kids as much as Cersei
he's the little brother but then why did the witch say "the valonqar" & not "your valonqar"?

looking at the wording even more closely the curse also says that the valonqar will wraps his hands around her & strangle her - his hands. tough luck Jaime only has 1 hand & I don't see a red witch growing back the other one

Gen. Chris
July 21st, 2016, 09:44 AM
So because it's her only alliance option, it must be that Euron is the one that will strangle her? That makes no sense. Is that the only evidence that you have?

" there's nothing so far in the show suggesting Jaime cared as much for his secret kids as much as Cersei"

Except for the look on his face when Myrcella told him that she knows he is her father and that she didn't care about the implications. He was elated.

Keep in mind that he has never had the chance to publicly act like they were his children. He was rather indifferent about Joffrey but he could only act like they were his niece and nephews. It's not surprising he was a bit distant from them because of this. But now because of Cersei he will never get the chance to act like a father to his last child...you know...because Cersei blew up the Sept (again, doing exactly what Jaime sacrificed his reputation twenty years previously to prevent). The look you see give Jaime at the end of season 6 as she was crowned did not exactly look like love to me.

I'll admit, the "hands" part is where the prediction gets a bit tricky but the people who predict the future in this show have not always been 100% correct in their predictions (which could also admittedly be a *possible* point in your favor). But that does not really stop the fact that Jaime is, currently, with all the evidence we ACTUALLY have at this point, the one most likely to be the one to kill Cersei.

SoulReaver
July 21st, 2016, 01:45 PM
except that's completely ignoring his character. this is the guy who was twice willing to kill a kid just for her sake
first off he doesn't even blame her for the first 2 kids' deaths anyway, the 3rd was suicide but I'd go so far as to say that even if she'd killed Tommen herself & admitted it to Jaime, he still wouldn't kill her (he might leave KL maybe but that's about it. that look he gave her wasn't really a killer-looking-at-his-next-victim-look nor did she appear concerned)
even after Myrcella's assassination he didn't seem that angry toward the Sands (you'd expect him to sail right back to Dorne with Bronn & part of the Lannister army in tow on a revenge mission, but nope). if he doesn't even resent the Sands that much over an assassination somehow I doubt he'll resent Cersei over a suicide

but Euron...you think the little brother Euron's not the type to kill a(nother) family member?

Traianus Augustus
July 22nd, 2016, 10:05 PM
Don't forget that Cersei's attitude toward Jamie began to rapidly change after he escaped from captivity. She became more distant from him. And after Joffrey's assassination she questioned his loyalty to their family when he defended Tyrion.

Jaime later defied her by sending Brienne and Podrick to ensure the safety of Sansa and Arya, whom Cersei wanted dead. I think that he realized Joffrey's death was sending her down a very dark path, a path that became darker still after Myrcella was killed.

Jaime doesn't hate Cersei; in fact I think he still very much loves her. In the end it comes down to his principles. Despite his jerkass traits, we've seen that he does have a personal sense of honor: he stabbed Aerys Targaryen in the back to prevent him from burning King's Landing to the ground, he refused to kill Eddard Stark after one of his men wounded him from behind as it wouldn't have been a fair fight, he saved Brienne's life when he didn't have to, and he's always stood up for Tyrion when the rest of the family openly despised him.

What I'm getting at here is that I think any future confrontation between Jaime and Cersei will revolve around the her increasingly deplorable actions in the name of power and his sense of honor compelling him to stop her. He may be forced to kill Cersei to prevent her from doing something terrible near the endgame.

As for Euron Greyjoy, the only real role I see for him is becoming Cersei's sole ally against Daenerys' coming invasion of Westeros. All of the Lannister's former allies are now defunct or have abandoned them: House Bolton is extinct, Olenna Tyrell (the only remaining member of House Tyrell) is now an enemy, and with the death of Walder Frey his rather large extended family is probably embroiled in a bloody feud over who will become the new head of House Frey. At this point Cersei has no one else to call on for support, making her and Euron natural allies of necessity.

That's not to say that Euron won't take a shot at her if the opportunity presents itself. Whether through Daenerys or her, he wants the Iron Throne. But something tells me that he won't be the one to take Cersei out.

SoulReaver
July 23rd, 2016, 03:39 AM
even if Jaime feels he has to kill a "mad king" out of honour (again) this time it's entirely different she's closest family to him not some complete stranger

not even sure he killed Aerys because of honour anyway (he knew about Aerys' plan to burn all of KL so he was basically saving his own ass. this was also the same Jaime who didn't hesitate to push Bran out the window)

Traianus Augustus
July 23rd, 2016, 08:42 PM
Of course it'll be different for Jaime this time. Cersei is not only his twin sister, but also his lover. If he does end up killing her he'll be very torn by it. Hell, he may decide to pull a Romeo and Juliet and take his own life to be with her in the hereafter. After she's gone he'd have nothing left but an entire continent that loathes him for being the Kingslayer and having an incestuous relationship with his sister.

Gen. Chris
July 24th, 2016, 11:14 PM
After she's gone he'd have nothing left but an entire continent that loathes him for being the Kingslayer and having an incestuous relationship with his sister.

Kingslayer and Queenslayer, not that anyone really minds either. People have mixed feelings about that whole thing.

But yes, I'm betting that he kills her to save the realm.

There is a huge difference between killing a man who is planning to murder 500,000 people and pushing a child out the window. The man that Jaime was at the beginning of season 1 was the result of all the crap he had to put up with saving those people by killing Aerys. He has, more or less, swung back towards being an actual knight.

SoulReaver
July 25th, 2016, 01:28 PM
sounds too simple for someone like GRRM (unless the screenwriters once again take liberties with the main plotline)

so why didn't the witch just say "your valonqar"?

Gen. Chris
July 25th, 2016, 02:57 PM
I don't think it really matters.

Until we see it on screen, Jaime is the most likely candidate to be the one to kill Cersei. She thinks no one can touch her now, with all of her enemies dead or gone, but that leaves the door wide open for Jaime to kill her because, again, she is psychotic and a threat to the realm. His love for her is strong, but he is still a good person at heart.

SoulReaver
August 3rd, 2016, 08:21 PM
he is still a good person at heart.even that's not really certain unless Jaime radically changed in the space of 1 season - remember last season when said if he saw Tyrion again he'd chop off his head? he knows his brother was unjustly arrested & sentenced to death by Tywin yet when Tyrion kills Tywin he promptly sides with...Tywin? (probably because Cersei hates Tyrion)

anyone who hates my Tyrion can't really be considered good anyway :|

Traianus Augustus
August 4th, 2016, 09:38 PM
Likely Jaime reacted to Tywin's murder the way he did because he genuinely loved his father, regardless if the man was a cold jerk who cared more for the family name than his own children. As far as Jaime was concerned Tyrion had just betrayed the entire family when he killed their father. He likely also feels a great deal of guilt as he helped set Tyrion free, thus enabling Tywin's murder.

Taken in that light, Jaime's desire to avenge his father is a natural reaction. Though I admit I hope Tyrion comes out of the whole fiasco alive.

SoulReaver
August 5th, 2016, 09:35 AM
As far as Jaime was concerned Tyrion had just betrayed the entire family when he killed their father
and yet he didn't think that Tywin & Cersei had betrayed Tyrion his own brother that's the problem - double standard (he's much more similar to Cersei than you'd expect)

Traianus Augustus
August 5th, 2016, 10:59 PM
Jaime was against killing Tyrion throughout his trial and did everything he could to save him. He tried to reason with Cersei, but she was so consumed by her hatred for Tyrion and the grief of losing her son that she refused to listen.

Jaime managed to secure a promise from Tywin that if Tyrion was found guilty of Joffrey's murder then he would be sentenced to serve in the Night's Watch. In return Jaime agreed to leave the Kingsguard and become Tywin's heir to Casterly Rock (members of the Kingsguard made similar vows as the men of the Night's Watch: couldn't hold titles or inherit lands, etc), which is what Tywin wanted all along.

If all went well Tyrion would live and be safely away from his scheming family members at the Wall and Tywin would get the heir that he wanted. However, Shae's testimony against Tyrion sent him over the edge and he demanded a trial by combat, essentially throwing Tywin and Jaime's original agreement out the window. After Tyrion lost his trial by combat, Jaime was forced to set him free to save him.

So there really isn't a double standard at all. Jaime knew that Tyrion was innocent and that killing him was wrong, and did everything he could to save him. But he didn't think that Tyrion would kill their father out of revenge.

SoulReaver
August 7th, 2016, 12:44 PM
dad sentences bro to die - "I disapprove dad"
bro kills dad out of revenge - "I'll chop off your head bro"

nope no double standard

if anything even Oberyn seemed to support Tyrion (for some reason :tealcanime49: ) more than Jaime did throughout the trial

SoulReaver
July 18th, 2017, 02:32 PM
looks like my theory just gained a lot more credence