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GateWorld
February 26th, 2016, 09:55 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/arrow/s4/eleven-fifty-nine/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/eleven-fifty-nine-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ARROW - SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/arrow/s4/eleven-fifty-nine/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">ELEVEN-FIFTY-NINE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 418</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Oliver and Diggle find themselves at odds when Oliver suspects that Andy is still working for Darhk. Laurel gets a job offer from a surprising source, and Meryln attempts to help the enemy escape from prison.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/arrow/s4/eleven-fifty-nine/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

garhkal
April 6th, 2016, 09:23 PM
So watched tonights ep.. man was that a shocker..


1) so darhk is now out of prison with a # of fellow inmates, and had malcomb steal back the idol.
2) its confirmed Andy is a bad guy again.. Man was Oli right with diggle in that "you kept telling me not to have a blindspot for family, but you are now the one having it"..
3) Why the heck did they just Leave the idol in their lair, KNOWING it has been breached many a time now? Why didn't they hide it elsewhere, or better yet destroy the frikken thing????
4) NOOOOO Sarah.. So we at least now know who is in the grave.. :(

LtColCarter
April 7th, 2016, 01:05 PM
Wow...tonight's episode's ending was heart wrenching.

I can't believe that Laurel is dead! She want not one who I thought would get killed off. I thought it was going to be Captain Lance.

P-90_177
April 7th, 2016, 01:25 PM
This was traumatising... I mean I honestly think I need counselling to get over this...

I saw a spoiler giving away who was going to die but even then it was so terrible. And just for her to look like she was ok and then to be ripped away again... Oliver's face... Diggle's guilt... Lance... Dear God the whole thing just destroyed me. I mean honestly I was about 30 more seconds away from wailing like Felicity when it cut to credits...

Teddybrown
April 7th, 2016, 02:19 PM
Ok, Im sad she died and all, but there was so much foreshadowing in the episode...

Good episode though and Im glad Diggle made it through it, looks like a great end to the season sibling rivalry!

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 02:30 PM
It has been known for weeks, unfortunately. Pictures were leaked in February that showed scenes from the next episode including Lance crying over the gravestone as well as the gravestone itself with her full name (Dinah Laurel Lance). And even if it had not been known, it was so obvious from the beginning from the sheer fact the she had more lines and more development throughout the episode than in the last couple months. And the kicker? "Maybe just one more time...". Yep. Dead.

What complete and utter horse ****. They get rid of Green Arrow's always love interest from the comics. They continue to push the Olicity **** at every turn. They even managed to had Laurel give a pro-Olicity speech just before she dies. And even better? Apparently the producers did not have a clue as to who was going to be in the grave when they first introduced it in the first episode this season. They didn't want to do it when it came time to, but they had to fill a literal plot hole. And they do this to the character that has already lost a daughter twice (Lance with Sarah "dying" twice). What awful and elementary level writing.

At this point the only thing that will save this season for me is to see Oliver and company go on a war path and kill anyone and anything on the way towards Dahrk. They can't kill Felicity now, but they can also at least make sure she and Oliver are done for good. That relationship created a toxic environment, and it led to the death of a canary (Get it?).

Edit: We also won't find out what Laurel said to Oliver until season 5. Probably because, like the grave, they haven't thought of what it will be yet...

Again, what ****. This used to be a great show until the producers thought it would be great to stick the nerdy awkward girl with the hot superhero just to appease the people that think thats what makes a great show, and the rest of it has suffered for it. Great job Guggenheim and Mericle, you killed Arrow.

P-90_177
April 7th, 2016, 02:36 PM
It has been known for weeks, unfortunately. Pictures were leaked in February that showed scenes from the next episode including Lance crying over the gravestone as well as the gravestone itself with her full name (Dinah Laurel Lance). And even if it had not been known, it was so obvious from the beginning from the sheer fact the she had more lines and more development throughout the episode than in the last couple months. And the kicker? "Maybe just one more time...". Yep. Dead.

What complete and utter horse ****. They get rid of Green Arrow's always love interest from the comics. They continue to push the Olicity **** at every turn. They even managed to had Laurel give a pro-Olicity speech just before she dies. And even better? Apparently the producers did not have a clue as to who was going to be in the grave when they first introduced it in the first episode this season. They didn't want to do it when it came time to, but they had to fill a literal plot hole. And they do this to the character that has already lost a daughter twice (Lance with Sarah "dying" twice). What awful and elementary level writing.

At this point the only thing that will save this season for me is to see Oliver and company go on a war path and kill anyone and anything on the way towards Dahrk. They can't kill Felicity now, but they can also at least make sure she and Oliver are done for good. That relationship created a toxic environment, and it led to the death of a canary (Get it?).

Edit: We also won't find out what Laurel said to Oliver until season 5. Probably because, like the grave, they haven't thought of what it will be yet...

Again, what ****. This used to be a great show until the producers thought it would be great to stick the nerdy awkward girl with the hot superhero just to appease the people that think thats what makes a great show, and the rest of it has suffered for it. Great job Guggenheim and Mericle, you killed Arrow.

Agree to disagree there Chris. I'm feeling this season is even stronger than all except season 2.

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 02:46 PM
In what way? Nothing has happened. Until recently the flashbacks have not mattered at all to the present day. The fighting and the way it is implemented have been ****; Oliver can singlehandedly kill Ra's and make Merlyn his ***** but a couple of cops are a problem? The stunts are terrible compared to what they used to be. The pairing of Olicity is awful, and they took a great character in Felicity and made her nearly unbearable...do you remember her literally walking out on Oliver because he made a decision regarding HIS son's safety without consulting her? Don't even get me started on the fact they completely hit the reset button on her paralysis, which is rather insulting and killed one of the few interesting twists this season. And then there is the fact that almost the whole team was sidelined this season in favor of more scenes with Olicity...We got more character development out of Diggle and the rest on FLASH episodes. Does that make sense to you?

By stunt scenes, look at this fight scene out of the very first season, when Oliver went to Bludhaven to rescue Walter. Have you seen anything even remotely close to this since season 2?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gpu1J6C0CY

By all means, convince me that this season is better than season 1 and 3. The first half of season 4 was an improvement over the last half of season 3 but jesus did it go downhill fast.

jelgate
April 7th, 2016, 02:47 PM
Agree to disagree there Chris. I'm feeling this season is even stronger than all except season 2.

Probably on par with S1 IMO. Not as good as S2 but I like S4 better than S3. I felt like that season lacked direction. I don't have the hate for Felicity this season that some people do. As for the episode I wish it had been someone, mostly for the reason I liked Black Canary. I would much have seen Capt. Lance or Diggle die but that is more for the reason I am not a big fan of their characters.

Infinite-Possibilities
April 7th, 2016, 02:54 PM
So... if that's the end of Laurel then doesn't it seem like her entire arc of becoming the Black Canary was pointless? Narratively what did she accomplish? Even the reason for her becoming the Black Canary is moot now.

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 02:55 PM
Probably on par with S1 IMO. Not as good as S2 but I like S4 better than S3. I felt like that season lacked direction. I don't have the hate for Felicity this season that some people do. As for the episode I wish it had been someone, mostly for the reason I liked Black Canary. I would much have seen Capt. Lance or Diggle die but that is more for the reason I am not a big fan of their characters.

Season 1 had the interesting story about the Undertaking and how it all related back to why Oliver and his dad were targeted to be killed. Genesis? Nothing on it since they showed the corn in episode...9? At the very least Dahrk is an interesting villain played by a great actor but I feel like he has been underutilized.

It would have made more sense to kill Diggle because of the sheer fact he trusted Andy. THAT would have been an interesting twist.

But nope, gotta kill Black Canary, because reasons...?

The Olicity shippers are celebrating this because they see her as the enemy. I mean we are talking grade-A nutjobs here who sent Cassidy as well as Amell's wife death threats because they are unable to grasp the difference between TV and reality. And these are the idiots that the producers listened to when they thought this is what the fans wanted. And the ratings are showing it. Great job, producers.


So... if that's the end of Laurel then doesn't it seem like her entire arc of becoming the Black Canary was pointless?

Basically. She was Black Canary for 1.5 seasons.

Ian-S
April 7th, 2016, 03:10 PM
Hmm wasn't expecting that, I tend to avoid spoilers, even avoiding comic canon where I can, but given everything explained above with regard to having to fill a virtual plot hole and in relation to hte comics, it does seem somewhat strange they'd choose her.

But hey at least it wasn't left on a cliffhanger with the crash team entering the room.... :lol:

Infinite-Possibilities
April 7th, 2016, 03:19 PM
So at the end of the day, after all the work she does, Laurel still never becomes anything but another victim. She doesn't die a heroes' death, she was executed as an example to hurt Lance and everyone else. It feels like doing Sarah all over again.

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 03:26 PM
So at the end of the day, after all the work she does, Laurel still never becomes anything but another victim. She doesn't die a heroes' death, she was executed as an example to hurt Lance and everyone else. It feels like doing Sarah all over again.

Yep. And it wasn't even unexpected like Sarah dying in the first episode of season 3. THAT was shocking. THAT was surprising. THAT was an amazing moment that left me tense and breathless. That was truly great TV.

This? If I didn't know about the spoilers I would have figured it out soon enough just from the amount of development Canary AND Laurel got (as two separate people).

P-90_177
April 7th, 2016, 03:27 PM
So at the end of the day, after all the work she does, Laurel still never becomes anything but another victim. She doesn't die a heroes' death, she was executed as an example to hurt Lance and everyone else. It feels like doing Sarah all over again.

Sometimes death is senseless though... I'm fine with that.

And to be honest I think they've probably got rid of the weakest character but with the largest impact, which is a double bonus. Laurel's story has never been all that riveting, and unlike Sara she's never been completely convincing as the Canary.

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 04:16 PM
Sometimes death is senseless though... I'm fine with that.


They already had a senseless death this season, though. Waller went out pathetically because DC thinks people will confuse her with the iteration that will be seen in Suicide Squad. For people who are important not only in the DC comics but in the shows they are in, having both Waller and Canary go out with a whimper is a sad state of affairs. They needed to get rid of Waller for the movie...fine, but do it in a meaningful way so it isn't cheap. But the fact that they killed Laurel to fill a literal plot hole is pathetic.

This season simply has terrible writing. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Infinite-Possibilities
April 7th, 2016, 05:01 PM
Exactly, they've done this before already. And presumably we're going to do an exact repeat of Lance's grieving father arc that they've already done twice at this point.

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 05:24 PM
Exactly, they've done this before already. And presumably we're going to do an exact repeat of Lance's grieving father arc that they've already done twice at this point.

Precisely! There has been so few episodes where Lance has NOT been grieving a dead daughter. And now that he had them both back for a handful of episodes the older one is snatched away by the plot hole.

Also it looks like Blackthorne (Lance) is pissed about this decision. It troubles me that none of the stars think that they can convince the writers and producers that some of the decisions they are making are terrible. I understand that actors like Amell are comfortable now that they finally have their big break but they are in relative positions that their voices can/should be considered.

mr_kennedy
April 7th, 2016, 06:29 PM
So did Katie Cassidy leave ARROW or are they gonna push the reset button next season?

jelgate
April 7th, 2016, 06:38 PM
She didn't chose to leave. The writers do decided to kill her off and won't be coming back

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 07:07 PM
Future spoilers for all three series

Katie Cassidy will be appearing on one episode of Flash as "Black Siren", the Earth 2 variant of Black Canary. Whether she will be a good character or bad, I do not know

Katie Cassidy has a contract with the CW network itself, not just Arrow. It's why she has appeared on so many CW shows. She will be fine, even if the producers of Arrow ****ed up.

Infinite-Possibilities
April 7th, 2016, 07:49 PM
You know, it's also worth noting that if Oliver hadn't spared Merlyn's life for no reason yet again, Laurel would not have died. How many of their loved ones does he have to kill before Oliver finally puts an end to him?

Gen. Chris
April 7th, 2016, 08:16 PM
Yep. More bad writing. Though I have a feeling it is so Merlyn will come back as the big bad in the final season (ideally season 5) so the series would have come full circle. That's not a terrible idea but...Yeah.

One could also argue that if Diggle had not trusted in his brother, it would not have happened either.

Achiles
April 7th, 2016, 08:39 PM
Or they hadn't reassembled the idol and kept it in the bunker where Malcom walks in and out freely while knowing he was working with Darkh none of it would have happened, though I thought it was possible he would keep the idol for himself.

garhkal
April 7th, 2016, 11:51 PM
Wow...tonight's episode's ending was heart wrenching.

I can't believe that Laurel is dead! She want not one who I thought would get killed off. I thought it was going to be Captain Lance.

Well seeing how he collapsed like that, who's to say he doesn't die of yet another heart attack


It would have made more sense to kill Diggle because of the sheer fact he trusted Andy. THAT would have been an interesting twist.

That would have made some actual sense, a lot more than killing Laural..


You know, it's also worth noting that if Oliver hadn't spared Merlyn's life for no reason yet again, Laurel would not have died. How many of their loved ones does he have to kill before Oliver finally puts an end to him?

And not just Oli. Twice now Thea has had him at her mercy, and failed to 'pull the trigger' so to speak. The best one was in the fight in the arrow-cave, where she had crossed swords over his throat..


Or they hadn't reassembled the idol and kept it in the bunker where Malcom walks in and out freely while knowing he was working with Darkh none of it would have happened, though I thought it was possible he would keep the idol for himself.

That to me is the biggest head scratcher of all of that.. WHY the heck did they keep the idol in the first place... Surely once it was off of being Darhk's play thing, they could have figured a way to destroy it..
OR at least get it OUT of that town and not store it in the one place that seems to have had the most infiltrations ever!!

Ian-S
April 8th, 2016, 01:45 PM
It seems doing obviously stupid stuff, that is generally out of character for said character, is the flavour of the month for several TV shows presently.

garhkal
April 8th, 2016, 08:14 PM
Which makes you wonder how these people survived to GET where they are if they are that damn stupid, at times..

jelgate
April 9th, 2016, 04:51 AM
Which makes you wonder how these people survived to GET where they are if they are that damn stupid, at times..
The average viewer doesn't go on to the Internet to whine about every little thing. Most people don't overthink every little action

Ian-S
April 9th, 2016, 06:37 AM
My wife falls into that category (enjoys the story being told for what it is) but even she remarked at how stupid they seem to have become in the last couple of episodes.

Spimman
April 11th, 2016, 10:36 AM
I felt like I was watching Austin Powers


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAMYHJYesM


Dr. Evil: Scott, I want you to meet daddy's nemesis, Austin Powers
Scott Evil: What? Are you feeding him? Why don't you just kill him?
Dr. Evil: I have an even better idea. I'm going to place him in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic death.

This is what I felt like about them reassembling the idol and leaving it in a plastic case in a lair that they all know Merlin could get to.

garhkal
April 11th, 2016, 01:11 PM
Good comparison. They are seeming to put Team arrow in to the same stupid realm of Dr Evil.. Just cause.

Gen. Chris
April 11th, 2016, 01:15 PM
It's just poor writing for added tension. They didn't even explain why they assembled it again, iirc. There is literally no reason to...just destroy the whole thing completely or scatter it.

Teddybrown
April 13th, 2016, 02:04 PM
Yeah, I was confused as to how it was whole again...

garhkal
April 13th, 2016, 10:12 PM
It's just poor writing for added tension. They didn't even explain why they assembled it again, iirc. There is literally no reason to...just destroy the whole thing completely or scatter it.

But when what's her name smashed it into that stump, all she seemed to do was break its connection.. Not actually BREAK it.

Though i might have to rewatch that episode to see if that's true or not.

Linda06
May 1st, 2016, 03:00 PM
It has been known for weeks, unfortunately. Pictures were leaked in February that showed scenes from the next episode including Lance crying over the gravestone as well as the gravestone itself with her full name (Dinah Laurel Lance). And even if it had not been known, it was so obvious from the beginning from the sheer fact the she had more lines and more development throughout the episode than in the last couple months. And the kicker? "Maybe just one more time...". Yep. Dead.

What complete and utter horse ****. They get rid of Green Arrow's always love interest from the comics. They continue to push the Olicity **** at every turn. They even managed to had Laurel give a pro-Olicity speech just before she dies. And even better? Apparently the producers did not have a clue as to who was going to be in the grave when they first introduced it in the first episode this season. They didn't want to do it when it came time to, but they had to fill a literal plot hole. And they do this to the character that has already lost a daughter twice (Lance with Sarah "dying" twice). What awful and elementary level writing.

At this point the only thing that will save this season for me is to see Oliver and company go on a war path and kill anyone and anything on the way towards Dahrk. They can't kill Felicity now, but they can also at least make sure she and Oliver are done for good. That relationship created a toxic environment, and it led to the death of a canary (Get it?).

Edit: We also won't find out what Laurel said to Oliver until season 5. Probably because, like the grave, they haven't thought of what it will be yet...

Again, what ****. This used to be a great show until the producers thought it would be great to stick the nerdy awkward girl with the hot superhero just to appease the people that think thats what makes a great show, and the rest of it has suffered for it. Great job Guggenheim and Mericle, you killed Arrow.

I got spoilered on bloody facebook.

I can't stand the Olicity nonsense either, although I don't like Oliver/Laurel either. I do like Felicity a lot though. I never liked Laurel all that much though until this season, she was growing on me, then they go kill her off. Go figure.

So I wonder if all this will drive a wedge between Oliver and Diggle. He sided with his brother even though all the signs were there and it got Laurel killed and Darkh back on the warpath, but then again if Oliver or Thea dealt with Merlyn when they had the chance there's a chance none of it would have happened.