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GateWorld
November 5th, 2015, 10:56 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/once-upon-a-time/s5/birth/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/birth-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ONCE UPON A TIME - SEASON FIVE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/once-upon-a-time/s5/birth/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">BIRTH</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 508</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Tensions in Camelot come to a head when Merlin, now under Arthur's control, delivers an ultimatum to Emma. Refusing to give in, Emma and our heroes face off against Arthur, Merlin and Zelena in an epic battle of magic and will. Back in Storybrooke, Zelena's pregnancy mysteriously accelerates and Hook goes to new and desperate lengths to get answers from the Dark Swan. <I>(ABC)</I></DIV>
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Jeffer
November 15th, 2015, 06:01 PM
Awesome episode but was pretty disappointed with the second hour

tomstone
November 15th, 2015, 10:37 PM
Awesome episode but was pretty disappointed with the second hour

Same here, this one was awesome. I really did not see that twist coming and they actually made it pretty believable so far. Looks like Killian is a Dark one from the start. Notice how Emma was dressed in white till she crossed the line and he came out in a big black robe.

I wonder what Emma did to Regina and the others, the sword is supposed to cut through everything, so did she cut through time?

Platschu
November 16th, 2015, 05:56 AM
It was such a surprisingly good episode. Plot twists, continuation of the main story, good acting. That is the OUAT what we like. :)

garhkal
November 16th, 2015, 08:52 PM
Can't wait to see what Hook does now, he knows he is also a dark one!

Infinite-Possibilities
November 16th, 2015, 11:34 PM
This show has got to have the most twisted sense of morality I've ever seen.

Killing innocent men in from of their wives = "All sins can be forgiven if someone loves you!"

Killing an evil murdering rapist = "This isn't the way! That's cold blooded murder!"

Did Regina actually just say "Nobody harms my sister except me" as if they had some some sort of quaint sibling rivalry? Her victims should have a hell of a lot more right to decide Zelena's fate that Regina does.

Emma's plan is probably the appropriate course of action to take with Zelena even if it didn't have the added benefit of destroying dark magic.

The show has also got some pretty arbitrary rules about what does and does not cause people to become evil. I'm honestly rather disappointed in how the backstory of Emma's corruption went. It didn't seem to follow any real logical progression.

EDIT: Then again I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. The show has always been like this.

Actually, I'm not even sure I understand the logic of why Hook became the second Dark One. I'll let slide why tethering him to Excalibur makes him immortal in the first place, but wouldn't he have to commit another murder to become consumed by darkness?

Jeffer
November 17th, 2015, 07:02 AM
The show has also got some pretty arbitrary rules about what does and does not cause people to become evil. I'm honestly rather disappointed in how the backstory of Emma's corruption went. It didn't seem to follow any real logical progression.



I viewed it as her final act before becoming dark was completely and utterly for personal gain. Everyone was telling her not to and even hook said to let him die. Any selfish act regardless of the act would have caused her to become dark. Which would fit with most other villains in the series.



Actually, I'm not even sure I understand the logic of why Hook became the second Dark One. I'll let slide why tethering him to Excalibur makes him immortal in the first place, but wouldn't he have to commit another murder to become consumed by darkness?

Probably not, much for the same reason that if zelena became the dark one, they are pretty evil to begin with and have little to no redeeming qualities.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 17th, 2015, 10:56 AM
I viewed it as her final act before becoming dark was completely and utterly for personal gain. Everyone was telling her not to and even hook said to let him die. Any selfish act regardless of the act would have caused her to become dark. Which would fit with most other villains in the series.

But there wasn't any embrace of the idea of the darkness itself in a general sense, either as a cause or as a practice. There was just a series of basically unrelated incidents and then suddenly she poofed from normal clothes to leather when she hit the last one, as if evil can be counted in integers.



Probably not, much for the same reason that if zelena became the dark one, they are pretty evil to begin with and have little to no redeeming qualities.

What? The entirety of the last few season's of Hook's character have been about him finding redemption. He hasn't played the role of a villain for a long time. If he was already evil with no redeeming qualities then what the hell is Emma doing planning a future with him? It shouldn't matter if he's the dark one or not, in that case.

Jeffer
November 17th, 2015, 02:13 PM
But there wasn't any embrace of the idea of the darkness itself in a general sense, either as a cause or as a practice. There was just a series of basically unrelated incidents and then suddenly she poofed from normal clothes to leather when she hit the last one, as if evil can be counted in integers.


I completely agree I still don't think that she has fully embraced it, but I don't think that there has to be a build up either. Had she done a completely selfish act at any point it would have made her the dark one. That act was what made her the dark one and everything before that doesn't matter.


What? The entirety of the last few season's of Hook's character have been about him finding redemption. He hasn't played the role of a villain for a long time. If he was already evil with no redeeming qualities then what the hell is Emma doing planning a future with him? It shouldn't matter if he's the dark one or not, in that case.

Look at it as a drug addicted, or someone that is trying to quit smoking. They can do very well but when put into a situation like that and they could relapse. Often times people will love them in spite of their flaws and try to help them change.

While I would agree he hasn't been doing extremely evil stuff he hasn't been doing good either. He tried to blackmail Mr. Gold, he was working with Cora, he tried to make a deal with Zelena, he beat the crap out of Will Scarlett. He said he loved Emma and could deal with her being the dark one but turned on her the moment things got tough.

He hasn't been doing particularly evil stuff but everything he's done has been for himself.

Now with that said I don't think for a second he's going to kill Emma in his last line of the episode he said we have to take care of her first which I think he's talking about Zelena, but I also think he's the one that killed Merlin.

garhkal
November 17th, 2015, 08:29 PM
This show has got to have the most twisted sense of morality I've ever seen.

Killing innocent men in from of their wives = "All sins can be forgiven if someone loves you!"

Killing an evil murdering rapist = "This isn't the way! That's cold blooded murder!"


I don't remember those 2 parts..


Did Regina actually just say "Nobody harms my sister except me" as if they had some some sort of quaint sibling rivalry? Her victims should have a hell of a lot more right to decide Zelena's fate that Regina does.

Yes she did. And while i agree it is common for siblings to unite against everyone ELSE when one or the other is threatened, then freely bash on one another.

Just like one of the gals i work with, she mentioned her brother would KILL anyone who beat her up, but has no problems beating on her himself..

Infinite-Possibilities
November 17th, 2015, 10:53 PM
My point is Regina is acting like Zelena is really her sister, instead of a monster that just so happened to share her blood. They're not just normal siblings who have some comical sibling rivalry. Zelena is dedicated specifically to destroying Regina's life. Zelena vaporized a women and then stole her identity with the intention of having sex with a guy without his consent all so that Regina's "true love" would have a baby with her first.

I mean I would assume the person you work with doesn't mean she literally has a violent physically abusive sibling.

When Hook was telling Emma about all the people he killed, he mentioned that he used to keep their rings as trophies, but now he keeps them as a reminder that "all sins can be forgiven if somebody loves you." That's a direct quote. He was trying to get her to open up by saying whatever bad things she's done in the past don't matter.

Later in the episode he's horrified at the thought of her executing Zelena. Even though doing so would pretty much be completely 100% justified.

So intentionally or not, the episode had the message that the deaths of the innocent don't matter, but the deaths of the guilty do. That's about as backwards as you could possibly take it.

tomstone
November 18th, 2015, 09:59 AM
My point is Regina is acting like Zelena is really her sister, instead of a monster that just so happened to share her blood. They're not just normal siblings who have some comical sibling rivalry. Zelena is dedicated specifically to destroying Regina's life. Zelena vaporized a women and then stole her identity with the intention of having sex with a guy without his consent all so that Regina's "true love" would have a baby with her first.

I mean I would assume the person you work with doesn't mean she literally has a violent physically abusive sibling.

When Hook was telling Emma about all the people he killed, he mentioned that he used to keep their rings as trophies, but now he keeps them as a reminder that "all sins can be forgiven if somebody loves you." That's a direct quote. He was trying to get her to open up by saying whatever bad things she's done in the past don't matter.

Later in the episode he's horrified at the thought of her executing Zelena. Even though doing so would pretty much be completely 100% justified.

So intentionally or not, the episode had the message that the deaths of the innocent don't matter, but the deaths of the guilty do. That's about as backwards as you could possibly take it.

I think its more of a Question of actually killing somebody. The good guys do not do that. Thats why Hook was worried about Emma suggesting to just kill Zelena. Its justified, but killing is never the answer, at least in fairy tale logic.

I agree that Regina being protective is a bit out of Character after everything her Sister has done. I still go back to my Original point that the good guys dont kill and try to save lifes, so Regina even if relucantly comes to the rescue.

Spimman
November 23rd, 2015, 05:34 AM
I wonder how good armies ever win battles in the enchanted forest...

*tries not to think about it*

rushy
November 25th, 2015, 09:56 AM
Are you still really arguing about morals in this show? We've been in Austin Powers territory for the past two and a half years now.

But I digress... I really enjoyed this episode. The Dark Hook twist was brilliant and the fact that he's going after Rumple again certainly fills me with glee. At least it gives the latter something to do after all this time. I was already afraid he was going into Archie territory.