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GateWorld
November 5th, 2015, 09:34 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/arrow/s4/legends-of-yesterday/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/legends-of-yesterday-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ARROW - SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/arrow/s4/legends-of-yesterday/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">LEGENDS OF YESTERDAY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 408</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Oliver and the Flash take Kendra and her new old friend Carter Hall to a remote location to hide from the man hunting them, while Malcolm Merlyn tries to negotiate with Vandal Savage directly. When Oliver learns that he may be a father, his decision changes the course of the future.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/arrow/s4/legends-of-yesterday/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Archaeis
December 3rd, 2015, 04:26 AM
Where do the wings come from and go? Do they tear through the clothes or just disappear or are they even a real part of the body?

LtColCarter
December 3rd, 2015, 06:39 AM
I loved this crossover episode. Just wish it could've been solved without Flash's time travel...

P-90_177
December 3rd, 2015, 07:58 AM
Where do the wings come from and go? Do they tear through the clothes or just disappear or are they even a real part of the body?

Well the powers appear to be mystical in nature so they probably somehow keep the clothes intact cos magic.

garhkal
December 3rd, 2015, 11:56 AM
Where do the wings come from and go? Do they tear through the clothes or just disappear or are they even a real part of the body?

Seems they just appear and disappear as needed.


I loved this crossover episode. Just wish it could've been solved without Flash's time travel...

I like that he 'ghosted' again.

LtColCarter
December 3rd, 2015, 12:07 PM
I like that he 'ghosted' again.

Yes, that is a cool effect...

Infinite-Possibilities
December 3rd, 2015, 01:02 PM
This was a really intense episode. There are so many characters. I mostly liked it. But there were a couple things that bothered me.

I'm sorry, but shouldn't it be offensive to cast the most Caucasian looking people you could find as Ancient Egyptian royalty? They looked ridiculous. How can that possibly be acceptable? They should have gone with the backstory of Hawkgirl and Hawkman being aliens if they were going to put those actors into scenes set in ancient Egypt.

Also, Oliver's nonsensical decision to spare Malcolm Merlyn's life last season is sure paying off, huh? :p He's only just doomed the world. :rolleyes:

aretood2
December 3rd, 2015, 05:43 PM
This was a really intense episode. There are so many characters. I mostly liked it. But there were a couple things that bothered me.

I'm sorry, but shouldn't it be offensive to cast the most Caucasian looking people you could find as Ancient Egyptian royalty? They looked ridiculous. How can that possibly be acceptable? They should have gone with the backstory of Hawkgirl and Hawkman being aliens if they were going to put those actors into scenes set in ancient Egypt.

Also, Oliver's nonsensical decision to spare Malcolm Merlyn's life last season is sure paying off, huh? :p He's only just doomed the world. :rolleyes:

Yeah, the whole Egyptian thing was bothering me to no end. The Alien thing would have bee cooler and better as far as the cast goes. I guess that would meed that the voodoo stuff wouldn't be there and thus no Merlin.

epg20
December 3rd, 2015, 07:46 PM
Yeah, the whole Egyptian thing was bothering me to no end. The Alien thing would have bee cooler and better as far as the cast goes. I guess that would meed that the voodoo stuff wouldn't be there and thus no Merlin.

I wish it could have ben the whole alien thing too, that would have ben more interesting, but it could also be that whole alternate reality thing, I mean the vandal savage story wasn't magical, he became immortal because of a meteor, not because of magic and meteor, so....

epg20
December 3rd, 2015, 07:54 PM
This was a really intense episode. There are so many characters. I mostly liked it. But there were a couple things that bothered me.

I'm sorry, but shouldn't it be offensive to cast the most Caucasian looking people you could find as Ancient Egyptian royalty? They looked ridiculous. How can that possibly be acceptable? They should have gone with the backstory of Hawkgirl and Hawkman being aliens if they were going to put those actors into scenes set in ancient Egypt.

Also, Oliver's nonsensical decision to spare Malcolm Merlyn's life last season is sure paying off, huh? :p He's only just doomed the world. :rolleyes:

well firstly, she was black, not Caucasian, so that was a twist, second, it would have taken a lot of time and money to cast those people for such a short amount of time.

well, we will see, the Lazarus pit was destroyed, so if he is planning to bring vandal back, he will need to find another way.

Infinite-Possibilities
December 3rd, 2015, 08:29 PM
I actually assumed Ciara Renée was hispanic. But either way, I was mainly talking about Falk Hentschel, who played Hawkman. Out of all the people in history who look like you'd think would ever have been named Khufu, he looks like he the very last one. He's an un-Ancient Egyptian looking as you'll ever see. He and his incredibly white looking Pharaoh father, looked indefensibly out of place.

I honestly don't know what they could have been thinking with this casting choice. If they wanted to cast him, go with the alien backstory. If they wanted to make their backstory begin in Ancient Egypt, cast people who could have perhaps even vaguely passed for Ancient Egyptian royalty.

I actually kind of hope people call them out on this, because I feel like it's the type of thing hat deserve flack.

Gen. Chris
December 3rd, 2015, 10:29 PM
Really? That's what you guys are mad about? Not the absolutely atrocious 180 on Felicity's personality?

"I can't believe you didn't tell me about the son you just found out about an hour ago!"

...bull****.

Flash has all the good writers and it is really annoying.

Infinite-Possibilities
December 3rd, 2015, 10:57 PM
It's kind of hard to get that mad about a scene that was only a second long and ended up being undone moments later anyway.

LtColCarter
December 4th, 2015, 07:14 AM
I just enjoyed the show...I wouldn't care if the actors were pink with purple polka-dots....

garhkal
December 4th, 2015, 07:54 AM
well firstly, she was black, not Caucasian, so that was a twist, second, it would have taken a lot of time and money to cast those people for such a short amount of time.

well, we will see, the Lazarus pit was destroyed, so if he is planning to bring vandal back, he will need to find another way.

Maybe he hopes to use Vandal's ashes to revitalize the pit..?

Infinite-Possibilities
December 4th, 2015, 11:00 AM
I just enjoyed the show...I wouldn't care if the actors were pink with purple polka-dots....

What they did here reminds me of super racist movies from decades ago where they cast blatantly white actors as non white roles.

LtColCarter
December 4th, 2015, 11:00 AM
well firstly, she was black, not Caucasian, so that was a twist, second, it would have taken a lot of time and money to cast those people for such a short amount of time.

well, we will see, the Lazarus pit was destroyed, so if he is planning to bring vandal back, he will need to find another way.

You realize that these actors are going to be used in DC's Legends of Tomorrow, right? So, they just weren't cast for this one crossover episode.

LtColCarter
December 4th, 2015, 11:06 AM
What they did here reminds me of super racist movies from decades ago where they cast blatantly white actors as non white roles.

You sound like the people complaining because Johnny Storm was black in the lastest Fantastic Four movie...and the people complaining because there's a black storm trooper in the new Star Wars movie. Yes, the roles were traditionally portrayed by caucasian actors, but there is nothing saying that they can't be black. Or maybe we should just go back to the time when all roles were portrayed by white men.

Infinite-Possibilities
December 4th, 2015, 11:10 AM
Of course there is no reason a stormtrooper would have to be white. But I'd say there IS reason that Ancient Egyptians wouldn't be white.


Or maybe we should just go back to the time when all roles were portrayed by white men.

You realize I'm complaining that they are white, right? Even as sarcasm this is the opposite of what I'm saying.

aretood2
December 4th, 2015, 12:54 PM
I actually assumed Ciara Renée was hispanic. But either way, I was mainly talking about Falk Hentschel, who played Hawkman. Out of all the people in history who look like you'd think would ever have been named Khufu, he looks like he the very last one. He's an un-Ancient Egyptian looking as you'll ever see. He and his incredibly white looking Pharaoh father, looked indefensibly out of place.

I honestly don't know what they could have been thinking with this casting choice. If they wanted to cast him, go with the alien backstory. If they wanted to make their backstory begin in Ancient Egypt, cast people who could have perhaps even vaguely passed for Ancient Egyptian royalty.

I actually kind of hope people call them out on this, because I feel like it's the type of thing hat deserve flack.

I think Renee is a mix of a lot of different ethnicities/races, however it is possible to be both 100% black and a 100% hispanic at the same time ;). But Egyptian isn't one of them. That part didn't bother me as much though, it was momentarily distracting but that's it. It's the magic that really bothered me. Though I do agree that whitewashing is not a good thing. However, I am used to seeing this, so meh (is that bad?).


Really? That's what you guys are mad about? Not the absolutely atrocious 180 on Felicity's personality?

"I can't believe you didn't tell me about the son you just found out about an hour ago!"

...bull****.

Flash has all the good writers and it is really annoying.

Felicity acting out of character is not nearly as bothersome as the magic. So GRRRRR magic GRRRR Hocus Pocus GRRRR I don't like that aspect of these comic book universes GRRRR.


You sound like the people complaining because Johnny Storm was black in the lastest Fantastic Four movie...and the people complaining because there's a black storm trooper in the new Star Wars movie. Yes, the roles were traditionally portrayed by caucasian actors, but there is nothing saying that they can't be black. Or maybe we should just go back to the time when all roles were portrayed by white men.

I think this is entirely wrong. You see, changing historical people's skin color is a bit of a slap to the face. A storm trooper, well, nothing says he can't be black. A comic book character like Fire Storm...I can see how that is odd but not infuriating nor bothersome but they'll need to explain his relationship with Invisible Woman (didn't see the movie). But none of that compares with turning any positive image of non-white people into white people almost as if stating that minorities can only portray certain low level characters.

BUT I don't blame the writers of doing that and the casting people probably didn't think things through. It just bothered me at an intellectual level. Flash writers are really good at what they do and their casting people did a good job. Arrow casting too, but their writers aren't um...fully aware of how some of their characters act at times (like a certain ex-boyfriend of Felicity). I rate this as minimal... BUT not comparable to the whole black storm trooper thing, not by a long shot.

Teddybrown
December 4th, 2015, 01:36 PM
Dont go and See Gods of Egypt, a fim coming out in 2016 then...

Infinite-Possibilities
December 4th, 2015, 03:57 PM
Yes I'm familiar with that movie, I already saw the trailer. Heck, one of the heroes in that movie looks so white he almost seems like he was specifically intended to draw attention to how out of place he looks. They cast a white guy and then gave him blonde hair for the movie, even though he didn't have it naturally.

But that doesn't make doing it here any less wrong.

P-90_177
December 4th, 2015, 04:15 PM
Really? That's what you guys are mad about? Not the absolutely atrocious 180 on Felicity's personality?

"I can't believe you didn't tell me about the son you just found out about an hour ago!"

...bull****.

Flash has all the good writers and it is really annoying.

It wasn't about the kid. It was about the fact that Oliver kinda knew about it even before he got the DNA test done and he was still keeping it from Felicity. They're supposed to be in a relationship and he didn't trust her enough with that information... Now granted, he probably could have said something along the lines of "I made a promise to someone not to say anything" but even then he was lying to Felicity about what he was doing for a a day or two before hand. He's kept secrets before but that was before they got together and even then part of them getting together was Oliver starting to be up front about everything with her.

aretood2
December 4th, 2015, 04:16 PM
Why couldn't Oliver lie to his baby mama about not telling Felicity? That is a question I can't answer. I mean, he is lying to his girlfriend (potential wife to be) by omission of truth. I somehow don't think lying to his baby mama is nearly as bad.

P-90_177
December 4th, 2015, 04:54 PM
Why couldn't Oliver lie to his baby mama about not telling Felicity? That is a question I can't answer. I mean, he is lying to his girlfriend (potential wife to be) by omission of truth. I somehow don't think lying to his baby mama is nearly as bad.

Oliver does have a certain sense of honour. He gave him his word so therefore he'll keep it, even if she strong armed him into it. Granted that could be down to a certain level of guilt.

Ian-S
December 4th, 2015, 04:55 PM
Does this new revelation of his son cause a spin on the gravestone scene in the opening episode? Maybe it's not one of the regulars killed off, but mummy?

I preferred The Flash part of this crossover, the writing for that seems so much more humorous than the Arrow writers.

aretood2
December 4th, 2015, 06:48 PM
Does this new revelation of his son cause a spin on the gravestone scene in the opening episode? Maybe it's not one of the regulars killed off, but mummy?

I preferred The Flash part of this crossover, the writing for that seems so much more humorous than the Arrow writers.

To be honest, I think the Flash writers are better overall. That or someone squandered this Arrow season. It doesn't seem to have a direction of its own other than setting up Legends of Tomorrow.

garhkal
December 4th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Does this new revelation of his son cause a spin on the gravestone scene in the opening episode? Maybe it's not one of the regulars killed off, but mummy?



IMo yes, since we only saw Barry show up to it, who was the only other person who DID see the DNA test.

P-90_177
December 5th, 2015, 02:05 AM
Does this new revelation of his son cause a spin on the gravestone scene in the opening episode? Maybe it's not one of the regulars killed off, but mummy?

I preferred The Flash part of this crossover, the writing for that seems so much more humorous than the Arrow writers.

Good point. I didn't think of that... Hell it could be really dark and be the son with Darhk attempting to perform some form of blood magic or such.

Starsaber
December 5th, 2015, 06:46 AM
To be honest, I think the Flash writers are better overall. That or someone squandered this Arrow season. It doesn't seem to have a direction of its own other than setting up Legends of Tomorrow.

Yeah, more of the Legends setup happened on Arrow, but they have laid a decent foundation with Damien Darhk. He's my second favorite season villain (after Deathstroke), though I think the Flash writers pushed him a bit too far over the top.

aretood2
December 5th, 2015, 06:56 AM
Yeah, more of the Legends setup happened on Arrow, but they have laid a decent foundation with Damien Darhk. He's my second favorite season villain (after Deathstroke), though I think the Flash writers pushed him a bit too far over the top.

I noticed that. Made him look crazy instead of cold and calculating. I think the set up could have been limited and plot related to Damien Darhk. For example, Palmer could simply have been conviniently swaped at the point of explosion by a time traveling do gooder (thus that setup taking place in Legends). The White Canary could have been some horrendous and horrible in bad taste resurrection plot by Damien Darhk further making our heroes disgusted and angry at him and then at the end they managed to "save" her.

Gen. Chris
December 5th, 2015, 08:31 AM
From what I understand, the writers from Season 2 of Arrow (easily the best season of that show) comprise the main writers for Flash, which is probably why Season 1 of Flash was so good for a first season while the concurrent season 3 of Arrow tanked without those writers.

Ian-S
December 6th, 2015, 04:27 PM
Good point. I didn't think of that... Hell it could be really dark and be the son with Darhk attempting to perform some form of blood magic or such.

Could be, I didn't suggest the son because doesn't he have some big future story in the comics? (but I guess since he's so young in this, that's a Doctor Who length of time away and they could always kill this one off to move the story along).

I like Darhk, his reaction to The Flash was perfect for somebody slightly crazy but still lucid enough to be bad.

P-90_177
December 6th, 2015, 04:45 PM
Could be, I didn't suggest the son because doesn't he have some big future story in the comics? (but I guess since he's so young in this, that's a Doctor Who length of time away and they could always kill this one off to move the story along).

I like Darhk, his reaction to The Flash was perfect for somebody slightly crazy but still lucid enough to be bad.

I agree. I'd actually rather that Darhk was that manic all the time. I mean he's already an awesome villain but that amount of enthusiasm was so crazy that it was kind of infectious.

Mrja84
December 31st, 2015, 11:48 AM
What they did here reminds me of super racist movies from decades ago where they cast blatantly white actors as non white roles.

Decades? That still happens....

P-90_177
December 31st, 2015, 01:05 PM
I think Renee is a mix of a lot of different ethnicities/races, however it is possible to be both 100% black and a 100% hispanic at the same time ;). But Egyptian isn't one of them. That part didn't bother me as much though, it was momentarily distracting but that's it. It's the magic that really bothered me. Though I do agree that whitewashing is not a good thing. However, I am used to seeing this, so meh (is that bad?).



Felicity acting out of character is not nearly as bothersome as the magic. So GRRRRR magic GRRRR Hocus Pocus GRRRR I don't like that aspect of these comic book universes GRRRR.



I think this is entirely wrong. You see, changing historical people's skin color is a bit of a slap to the face. A storm trooper, well, nothing says he can't be black. A comic book character like Fire Storm...I can see how that is odd but not infuriating nor bothersome but they'll need to explain his relationship with Invisible Woman (didn't see the movie). But none of that compares with turning any positive image of non-white people into white people almost as if stating that minorities can only portray certain low level characters.

BUT I don't blame the writers of doing that and the casting people probably didn't think things through. It just bothered me at an intellectual level. Flash writers are really good at what they do and their casting people did a good job. Arrow casting too, but their writers aren't um...fully aware of how some of their characters act at times (like a certain ex-boyfriend of Felicity). I rate this as minimal... BUT not comparable to the whole black storm trooper thing, not by a long shot.

I don't disagree with this, but just pointing out that Hawkman and Hawkgirl are still pretty damn white in the comics but with the same back story. Doesn't make it right, but at least in this case Hawkgirl wasn't at the very least.

Dumper
October 1st, 2016, 12:54 PM
Even for a series like this the story lines are getting ridiculous. Why doesn't Barry meet his other self when he travels back in time?

Infinite-Possibilities
October 1st, 2016, 03:52 PM
The rules about how that sort of thing works appears to be almost deliberately inconsistent.

Starsaber
October 3rd, 2016, 06:26 AM
Even for a series like this the story lines are getting ridiculous. Why doesn't Barry meet his other self when he travels back in time?

He replaced his original self when he backstepped a day in Season 1 too. There was something in Legends of Tomorrow about timeline changes taking some time to "set". Maybe when he just goes back in time a day, the timeline hasn't set yet, so he can replace himself rather than meeting himself.

Dumper
October 3rd, 2016, 11:48 AM
He replaced his original self when he backstepped a day in Season 1 too. There was something in Legends of Tomorrow about timeline changes taking some time to "set". Maybe when he just goes back in time a day, the timeline hasn't set yet, so he can replace himself rather than meeting himself.

Interesting, I haven't seen LoT yet. I remember having the same question with that season 1 episode too.