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GateWorld
September 29th, 2015, 11:04 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/hell-bent/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/hell-bent-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SEASON 35 (9)</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/hell-bent/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">HELL BENT</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3512 (912)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">The Doctor's return to Gallifrey does not go as the President planned, as the Doctor defies all odds and travels to the end of the universe to try and save the life of someone close to him. But what he finds there may be the Hybrid prophesied to bring about the ruin of the Time Lords.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/hell-bent/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Teddybrown
December 5th, 2015, 01:05 PM
Well, that was unexpected...

GodAtum
December 5th, 2015, 01:13 PM
completely mind-f***ed ....

Teddybrown
December 5th, 2015, 01:15 PM
completely mind-f***ed ....

Join the club...

P-90_177
December 5th, 2015, 01:16 PM
Perfect. Absolutely perfect...

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
December 5th, 2015, 01:21 PM
New screwdriver! Just in time for Christmas :p

Sealurk
December 5th, 2015, 01:29 PM
Oh for the love of... really, Moffat? Really? The Doctor gets back to Gallifrey, this should be massive, this is something that should have been the focus of several episodes, but instead we get Clara. Again. She died two episodes ago, it was sad, MOVE ON. She takes over the show even while she's dead!

And now we get not-actually-dead-and-just-a-tiny-bit-immortal Clara with her own TARDIS and companion, and we STILL don't have a definitive answer to the hybrid prophecy, just a lot of theories.

Blencathra
December 5th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Oh for the love of... really, Moffat? Really? The Doctor gets back to Gallifrey, this should be massive, this is something that should have been the focus of several episodes, but instead we get Clara. Again. She died two episodes ago, it was sad, MOVE ON. She takes over the show even while she's dead!

And now we get not-actually-dead-and-just-a-tiny-bit-immortal Clara with her own TARDIS and companion, and we STILL don't have a definitive answer to the hybrid prophecy, just a lot of theories.

This.

We get to Gallifrey far too easily. The Time Lords don't behave like Time Lords. The Gallifreyans look like they walked off a western movie set. Bloody Clara is back. :rolleyes: She managed to stay dead for two whole episodes. Wow. We don't see Gallifrey again. It's just left. Clara gets a TARDIS & a companion as she is obviously going to be starring in her own series called Clara Who. No conclusion to some long standing questions. I was pretty much disappointed with the whole thing.

The good things. Gallifrey looked fantastic. Love the new sonic.

Best thing of all - the trailer for The Husbands of River Song at the end.

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
December 5th, 2015, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't go as far to say her death was sad.. :p I'm not sure how I feel about her being immortal and out there in the universe.. On the one hand, it undid an apparently emotional character death (for some people :p) so they might feel betrayed by that.. But on the other hand, one thing that has been missing for so long is recurring characters. This opens up the possibility for Me and Clara to appear now and then, without the Doctor having to go back to London to see them, like with Strax and Vastra. But on another hand, it's Clara, not that she's a bad character but she does take over and becomes the centre of attention whenever she's around. And now she's as close to being the Doctor as she can possibly get.

I think this is as close as we're going to get to an answer to the Hybrid question. The Doctor and Clara. A Timelord and the human who desperately wants to be him. And the prophecy only said they would stand on the ruins of Gallifrey. Which by travelling to the end of the universe, they did. It didn't say they would destroy the planet or kill anyone. Only stand on it :p

Sealurk
December 5th, 2015, 02:04 PM
Seeing Gallifrey was great and for a while the episode felt to me like the setup for a truly epic story revolving around the hybrid prophecy and a major clash with Rassilon, especially when the Doctor orders him off the planet.

To me, it swerves off course and crashes the moment the Doctor heads to the extraction chamber... the episode begins to feels like badly written wish-fulfillment fanfiction for Clara.

"OMG she's immortal, she finds her own TARDIS but it's even better than the Doctor's TARDIS and she's got her own companion and they're going to spend forever and ever travelling through space and time having adventures but the Doctor's not sad though, OMG I looove Clara so much."

I don't hate Clara (at first I even really liked her), but I do find her extremely annoying. I am irritated that we're constantly told how wonderful and clever she is but don't often see evidence of this, just an egomaniacal control freak with a superiority complex. I'm annoyed that the character becomes or makes herself the centre of attention wherever she goes and is actually quite selfish. What annoys me the most is how much of the show has revolved around her since her introduction.

GodAtum
December 5th, 2015, 02:10 PM
I don't hate Clara (at first I even really liked her), but I do find her extremely annoying. I am irritated that we're constantly told how wonderful and clever she is but don't often see evidence of this, just an egomaniacal control freak with a superiority complex. I'm annoyed that the character becomes or makes herself the centre of attention wherever she goes and is actually quite selfish. What annoys me the most is how much of the show has revolved around her since her introduction.

I am starting to feel the same way to. No-one will ever come closer to the Doctor for me then River (I think she is the only one to know his true name?). And possible the Doctor's daugther who hasnt even been featured yet.

Teddybrown
December 5th, 2015, 03:36 PM
I must admit, when the Doctor went to the extraction chamber and pulled Clara back, I did kinda go ffs...

Also, what is it with Time Lords regenerating into women these days, is Moffat trying to make a point?

BigHonkinSpaceGun
December 5th, 2015, 04:05 PM
I can't believe.....why.....what did I just watch? So even when we see Clara DIE, they still bring her back somehow and it becomes another Clara lovefest? I thought the show was supposed to be about the Doctor and his companion(s).....not a companion who upstages the whole show and virtually becomes her own MarySue-ized version of the Doctor.

And to think....after last week I was actually EXCITED about Dr Who again. This show has been a part of my life since, well...forever. And I can't believe I'm saying this...but I think I'm done. Don't know if I'm even going to watch the Christmas episode. As a fan, I just feel so betrayed.

Clara got a great send off, and this just totally cheapened her sacrifice. Moffatt didn't just jump the shark with this one....he totally went Death Star on the shark.

I'm glad I have so many previous Doctors' series to enjoy, since I'm now done until Moffatt leaves. A shame, since I was enjoying Peter Capaldi.

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
December 5th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Clara is gone now. Her contract is up. She's moving to ITV. They left it open for possible appearances in the future. But for now. It's all about the Doctor again.

If everyone stopped watching now, it would be like they all stopped because Clara left. Which is exactly the opposite of the message you want to send to the producers.

Blencathra
December 5th, 2015, 04:52 PM
Very true PH. I am going to try to forget her as quickly as possible & move on.

Something else that irked me was that they showed us all the elements of this story in the trailer. So we saw Clara, we saw Ashildr, we saw the Sisterhood of Karn, we saw the Doctor going back to the barn etc. We just didn't know how these elements fitted together. They should have kept a little secret with which to suprise us.

BTW this weekend Big Finish have an offer on their Gallifrey range. I cannot recommend these highly enough. These stories are some of the best audio Big Finish have ever done.

http://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/series-9-saturdays-gallifrey-from-the-worlds-of-doctor-who

Edit - I thought I'd mention that the stories have more affinity to the Time Lords and Gallifrey of The Deadly Assassin, The Invasion of Time & The Five Doctors rather than to "New" Who.

P-90_177
December 5th, 2015, 05:32 PM
Ok I've had a bit of thinking time and I can come back to add my thoughts to this episode.

For me this was a perfect send off for Clara. I didn't think I wanted her back. I loved the fact that she was dead but this really did surprise me and it really did make me appreciate how great at these twists Moffat is.

The Timelord aspects could have been fleshed out but simultaneously I don't feel like they were midding anything because ultimately it ended the way it was always going to. The Doctor was never going to have some big show down with the Timelords because ultimately, if the Doctor was going to make an adversary of them they would be the one enemy that could walk all over him. Instead it was established quickly that for all the power Rassilon has, he cannot hold a candle next to the gravitas and achievements of The Doctor. Ultimately by having Gallifrey back just like that is fine too. The Doctor doesn't have to solve every single issue in the universe. There are Timelords just as smart as he is.

The scenes with Me worked terribly well, in the sense that The Doctor had a showdown with her in the intellectual sense which is how the two of them have always played off eachother and yet they've never really been enemies so the way it ended worked beautifully between the dialogue and the imagery.

Even more beautiful was the ending where the Doctor is talking to Clara without knowing it. I can't deny I was worried about this whole episode from the point Clara showed up because I thought she was going to get resurrected in some convoluted way, but that's not what's happened. She's still dead. That much is certain... she's just got a little time to kill before then. And the thought of Clara travelling the stars with me brings both characters to a happy ending, In particular Clara who has been growing towards being more like the Doctor with each passing series.

All in all I loved this episode. I really did. Everything about it made me smile. I'd say it's the best finale since series 5.

Coco Pops
December 5th, 2015, 07:07 PM
I don't hate Clara (at first I even really liked her), but I do find her extremely annoying. I am irritated that we're constantly told how wonderful and clever she is but don't often see evidence of this, just an egomaniacal control freak with a superiority complex. I'm annoyed that the character becomes or makes herself the centre of attention wherever she goes and is actually quite selfish. What annoys me the most is how much of the show has revolved around her since her introduction.


But they did that kind of thing with Amy Pond too in season 5 and it almost became the Amy Pond show. But I kept watching it as it was good.

I couldn't give it a perfect score even if there was one to rate it under. Maybe 5/10

it was good I'll say that but there were a few moments when I just looked at the screen and thought WTF? is going on.

My only real nitpick is how the hell does Clara know how to fly a TARDIS? When did she gain this knowledge? I did like that Ashildr is traveling with her as I like her.

The whole build up all season about the hybrid, and what? Nothing, that felt like a huge waste of time and energy because of all the buildup. Why did they even bother with this storyline?

I'm going to have to watch this again..

Will there be a full series boxset? I want that...

Coco Pops
December 5th, 2015, 10:19 PM
Why did he ask for a human compatible neural block?

That device shouldn't have worked on him, regardless of what Clara said she did to it..

Flyboy
December 6th, 2015, 02:38 AM
I agree with all of the negative points raised here.

I'm quite frankly let down. I was expecting pure fireworks. And it all went south the moment the Doctor rescued Clara. I know the Doctor has a history of running away, but having just literally led a military coup against the High Council he needs to show a bit more responsibility than he did... bare in mind the Doctor has been obsessed with going home and finding Gallifrey since DotD, I'm amazed he would leave it so quickly. Further, he has a sodding duty to restore it to somewhere that ISN'T right at the end of time... but hey, let's ignore that!

So many issues SHOULD have been dealt with, I mean, fcol - whatever happened to Rassilon's plan to destroy time itself? And their supposed ascension...

The Clara fanwank was sickening. I never thought I'd say this, but can we go back to having companions that just scream and shout 'Doctorrrrr!' at the top of their voice each time they get captured? Congratulations Moffat, you had two excellent opportunities to bin Clara, and you failed to commit on both of them. Heck, given how last minute Jenna Coleman's decision to stay with DW was last year she should have just been written out there and then in Last Christmas. That, at least, was an emotive ending and would have worked.

This episode should have been about The Doctor. His origins. His legacy. His secrets. It should not have been reduced to nothing more than a contrived scheme to undo the death of a companion a couple of episodes before. After the sheer genius and mastery that was Heaven Sent, I am really disappointed in Hell Bent.

Coco Pops
December 6th, 2015, 03:28 AM
Here's a question.

What did Clara say to the Doctor that was so important that they had to literally blank it out with scenes of the city above for almost 10 seconds?

It almost felt like one of those scenes where a man kisses a woman and they show a train for 6 seconds ..............

Coco Pops
December 6th, 2015, 03:29 AM
I agree with all of the negative points raised here.

I'm quite frankly let down. I was expecting pure fireworks. And it all went south the moment the Doctor rescued Clara. I know the Doctor has a history of running away, but having just literally led a military coup against the High Council he needs to show a bit more responsibility than he did... bare in mind the Doctor has been obsessed with going home and finding Gallifrey since DotD, I'm amazed he would leave it so quickly. Further, he has a sodding duty to restore it to somewhere that ISN'T right at the end of time... but hey, let's ignore that!

So many issues SHOULD have been dealt with, I mean, fcol - whatever happened to Rassilon's plan to destroy time itself? And their supposed ascension...

The Clara fanwank was sickening. I never thought I'd say this, but can we go back to having companions that just scream and shout 'Doctorrrrr!' at the top of their voice each time they get captured? Congratulations Moffat, you had two excellent opportunities to bin Clara, and you failed to commit on both of them. Heck, given how last minute Jenna Coleman's decision to stay with DW was last year she should have just been written out there and then in Last Christmas. That, at least, was an emotive ending and would have worked.

This episode should have been about The Doctor. His origins. His legacy. His secrets. It should not have been reduced to nothing more than a contrived scheme to undo the death of a companion a couple of episodes before. After the sheer genius and mastery that was Heaven Sent, I am really disappointed in Hell Bent.


On my 2nd viewing of this I felt I was left asking more questions then when I watched it the first time. It just didn't gel as a coherent story but a jumble of things mashed together.

cosmichobo
December 6th, 2015, 04:41 AM
I'm smiling.

That's my review of this story - It left me with a smile upon my face.

I may have taken a few kicks to the testicles along the way, so it may be a grimacing smile... But it is a smile.

Ok, first, some refs.

Loved Ohila's reference to fireworks - tie back to 4's use of a firecracker to repair the Sacred Flame...

LOVED finally seeing the original TARDIS set (from An Adventure In Time & Space) being used in Doctor Who... It was glorious... Oh, the doors! (Actually, they looked a little narrow...)

I think it's a shame they couldn't have convinced/afforded Dalton to return as Rassilon... The new guy was okay..... but didn't spit nearly as much.

Ok... can't avoid it forever, I guess... Oh what, I guess Moffat always does (avoid stuff, that is).

Yes, I love LOVING this story... until the Doctor extracted Clara... Silly me actually thought - can you believe it - that maybe just maybe he'd be extracting the 8th Doctor or something (well, there were all those rumours...)... Then instead we get Clara back again... and my brain just said to me, as the camera pulled up into the sky -

Capaldi and Coleman... both contracted for the full season... Clara's "light" story was obviously "Heaven Sent", (no idea when/if Capaldi got a light one?), but basically - she's in this story, not just as the "light" Clara in the cafe, but yes, she's gonna be full on Clara too... And I wasn't thrilled... cos she died... she faced death head on... (in a scene that should have been emotional but really wasn't) but now, as Moffat SO loves doing, he's just pissed all over it.

I am a really anal guy... I hated RTD for letting Ecc go after 1 season - because the Doctor could only ever have 13 lives... and that's 1 wasted so quickly... (Ok, I've moved on - Capaldi rocks!) (Oh! And... Yes, Capaldi - is the Doctor... I'm there... I took the long way round, but I'm there) I hate when there's some indisputable anything, and then.... it gets disputed.

Within this story, they've said Clara CAN'T continue, or it will fracture time itself... The noble thing, the proper thing, the thing I expected from that moment onward, especially after the Raven episode - was that Clara, ultimately, would insist upon returning, and facing her death...

No.

Whoops.

But aha... that basically has remedied my issue with Raven - leaving Clara laying dead in the street.... (and the short story that I wrote a few days ago about the Doctor collecting her body... well, totally and utterly disappeared in a puff of logic now...)

I *want* to see Clara make a cameo next year. Some 5 minute little thing somewhere... and the year after... Just - cos of the anal thing again really. She saved his life a billion times, so - he has to keep running into her... surely.

And this post is a great representation of how this story has f**d my head :)

Blencathra
December 6th, 2015, 04:45 AM
Totally agree with everything you say FB.


Anyway, I've had a thought...

From Listen

DOCTOR: [talking about Orson Pink] Pioneer time traveller. Rode the first of the great time shots. They were supposed to fire him into the middle of the next week.
CLARA: What happened?
DOCTOR: He went a bit far.
CLARA: A bit?
DOCTOR: A big bit. Look at him now. Robinson Crusoe at the end of time itself. The last man standing in the universe. I always thought that would be me.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5772/22931625304_c20f41ec46_z.jpg

cosmichobo
December 6th, 2015, 04:55 AM
Have to admit - I didn't expect Ashildr... Nor when the Doc said it was "Me" did I realise...

Can't say I'm a fan of the character... and not huge on the actress.

P-90_177
December 6th, 2015, 04:56 AM
I'm smiling.

That's my review of this story - It left me with a smile upon my face.

I may have taken a few kicks to the testicles along the way, so it may be a grimacing smile... But it is a smile.

Ok, first, some refs.

Loved Ohila's reference to fireworks - tie back to 4's use of a firecracker to repair the Sacred Flame...

LOVED finally seeing the original TARDIS set (from An Adventure In Time & Space) being used in Doctor Who... It was glorious... Oh, the doors! (Actually, they looked a little narrow...)

I think it's a shame they couldn't have convinced/afforded Dalton to return as Rassilon... The new guy was okay..... but didn't spit nearly as much.

Ok... can't avoid it forever, I guess... Oh what, I guess Moffat always does (avoid stuff, that is).

Yes, I love LOVING this story... until the Doctor extracted Clara... Silly me actually thought - can you believe it - that maybe just maybe he'd be extracting the 8th Doctor or something (well, there were all those rumours...)... Then instead we get Clara back again... and my brain just said to me, as the camera pulled up into the sky -

Capaldi and Coleman... both contracted for the full season... Clara's "light" story was obviously "Heaven Sent", (no idea when/if Capaldi got a light one?), but basically - she's in this story, not just as the "light" Clara in the cafe, but yes, she's gonna be full on Clara too... And I wasn't thrilled... cos she died... she faced death head on... (in a scene that should have been emotional but really wasn't) but now, as Moffat SO loves doing, he's just pissed all over it.

I am a really anal guy... I hated RTD for letting Ecc go after 1 season - because the Doctor could only ever have 13 lives... and that's 1 wasted so quickly... (Ok, I've moved on - Capaldi rocks!) (Oh! And... Yes, Capaldi - is the Doctor... I'm there... I took the long way round, but I'm there) I hate when there's some indisputable anything, and then.... it gets disputed.

Within this story, they've said Clara CAN'T continue, or it will fracture time itself... The noble thing, the proper thing, the thing I expected from that moment onward, especially after the Raven episode - was that Clara, ultimately, would insist upon returning, and facing her death...

No.

Whoops.

But aha... that basically has remedied my issue with Raven - leaving Clara laying dead in the street.... (and the short story that I wrote a few days ago about the Doctor collecting her body... well, totally and utterly disappeared in a puff of logic now...)

I *want* to see Clara make a cameo next year. Some 5 minute little thing somewhere... and the year after... Just - cos of the anal thing again really. She saved his life a billion times, so - he has to keep running into her... surely.

And this post is a great representation of how this story has f**d my head :)

Not entirely true about her not intending to go back to face the raven. One day she will. She knows full well that she'll fracture time if she doesn't, but as she can't die she has all the time in the universe to go back there. Eventually she will do, we know that because time didn't fracture and her body was still there in Face the Raven. All she needs to do is throw on the same clothes she was wearing at the time, and go back to Gallifrey to allow them to insert her back into the timeline.

DigiFluid
December 6th, 2015, 05:30 AM
I am boggled at the amount of complaining in here. Aside from a couple of little hiccups, I loved this one.

Seeing Gallifrey again? Wonderful! Especially with all the beautiful CGI shots of the capital, showing all the sprawl around the Citadel that we really have not seen to this point. And to visit the bowels of the city, the Matrix itself--scene of so many BF stories. The Doctor's return to the farmhouse, a wonderful echo of its appearances in both Listen and The Day of the Doctor. Being (apparently) his family's property, I couldn't help but wonder: is the old woman a relative of his?

And the people, ha! Great nod to continuity to see the General reappear, and to see that Rassilon is Lord President (I was half expecting that to be ignored). I particularly enjoyed that Rassilon was so hated that everyone from the nameless foot soldiers to the General himself were prepared to turn on him at a moment's notice. AND now he's been banished, presumably in a TARDIS, so perhaps down the line we'll see him reappear as an enemy of the Doctor who hates him for his banishment. Also happy to see Ohila show up again. Made a nice bookend to the season, following her appearance in the minisode that was a prologue to the first episode this series. I suppose it's also kind of a nice bookend to the war itself as well, since she was there at the beginning of it (for the Doctor), and now here she was on his first steps on Gallifrey post-war.

The biggest surprise for me this time around was Maisie Williams. I'm so used to her as Arya Stark that I had a hard time getting used to her as any other character. Add to that her earlier appearances this season not being entirely convincing (in terms of acting, at least to me), and I was initially a little let down to see her again. And then Williams comes out of nowhere with the finest performance I've ever seen her give, on either Doctor Who or Game of Thrones. Her chat with the Doctor at the end of the universe very nearly stole the whole show for me.

Gripe: After emphasising all season long that she doesn't have the infinite memory to go with her infinite lifespan, it struck me as a little incongruous that she was sitting there waiting for him, presumably 100 trillion years since they last met. This is pretty easily fanwanked away--memory enhancement in the intervening eons, payment from the Time Lords, what-have-you--but it just seemed a little lazy to go in the exact opposite direction that they've been playing up all season long.

Backing up a little, I do not understand all the Clara hate, I truly don't. She was a fun companion with a story and life of her own, who continued to have a story even after her 'impossible girl' plot line was resolved. Enter this series, and she's obviously acting out after the death of the love of her life last season--the way some people might start picking fights at every opportunity, or drinking heavily, just to have their brain focus on something--anything--else. This was not a 'little Doctor' thing, it was a grief reaction, and it got her pretty tragically killed. It's so much worse and more soul-crushing that seeing this, the Doctor spent so long in 'hell' and then tried to break time itself in order to save her. This is the Doctor, caring and protective of his own to a fault.

Major bonus points for the classic TARDIS. I recognized the exterior right away as being the same design that we saw back in The Name of the Doctor, and a few times the same look appeared in the original run. And how about that classic interior?! I just about 'squee'd when it appeared :D

rkgardner2003
December 6th, 2015, 05:36 AM
Maybe I was too sleepy when I watched this last night. I thought at the end that Clara and Ashildir said that time wasn't healing itself (like the Doctor thought it would) and that they were going back to Gallifrey so that Clara could go back to meet the raven and set it right. Wasn't that the point of her checking for her pulse that never came back? I was left thinking that Clara was going back to let herself die and that would leave Ashildir with the other Tardis...

Coco Pops
December 6th, 2015, 05:38 AM
Maybe I was too sleepy when I watched this last night. I thought at the end that Clara and Ashildir said that time wasn't healing itself (like the Doctor thought it would) and that they were going back to Gallifrey so that Clara could go back to meet the raven and set it right. Wasn't that the point of her checking for her pulse that never came back? I was left thinking that Clara was going back to let herself die and that would leave Ashildir with the other Tardis...



She is but she told Ashildr she would take the long way around to get back there bookending the line the Doctor used.

DigiFluid
December 6th, 2015, 05:38 AM
Maybe I was too sleepy when I watched this last night. I thought at the end that Clara and Ashildir said that time wasn't healing itself (like the Doctor thought it would) and that they were going back to Gallifrey so that Clara could go back to meet the raven and set it right. Wasn't that the point of her checking for her pulse that never came back? I was left thinking that Clara was going back to let herself die and that would leave Ashildir with the other Tardis...

She wasn't going to go back right away, but that's largely the impression I got, yeah.

P-90_177
December 6th, 2015, 06:00 AM
I am boggled at the amount of complaining in here. Aside from a couple of little hiccups, I loved this one.

Seeing Gallifrey again? Wonderful! Especially with all the beautiful CGI shots of the capital, showing all the sprawl around the Citadel that we really have not seen to this point. And to visit the bowels of the city, the Matrix itself--scene of so many BF stories. The Doctor's return to the farmhouse, a wonderful echo of its appearances in both Listen and The Day of the Doctor. Being (apparently) his family's property, I couldn't help but wonder: is the old woman a relative of his?

And the people, ha! Great nod to continuity to see the General reappear, and to see that Rassilon is Lord President (I was half expecting that to be ignored). I particularly enjoyed that Rassilon was so hated that everyone from the nameless foot soldiers to the General himself were prepared to turn on him at a moment's notice. AND now he's been banished, presumably in a TARDIS, so perhaps down the line we'll see him reappear as an enemy of the Doctor who hates him for his banishment. Also happy to see Ohila show up again. Made a nice bookend to the season, following her appearance in the minisode that was a prologue to the first episode this series. I suppose it's also kind of a nice bookend to the war itself as well, since she was there at the beginning of it (for the Doctor), and now here she was on his first steps on Gallifrey post-war.

The biggest surprise for me this time around was Maisie Williams. I'm so used to her as Arya Stark that I had a hard time getting used to her as any other character. Add to that her earlier appearances this season not being entirely convincing (in terms of acting, at least to me), and I was initially a little let down to see her again. And then Williams comes out of nowhere with the finest performance I've ever seen her give, on either Doctor Who or Game of Thrones. Her chat with the Doctor at the end of the universe very nearly stole the whole show for me.

Gripe: After emphasising all season long that she doesn't have the infinite memory to go with her infinite lifespan, it struck me as a little incongruous that she was sitting there waiting for him, presumably 100 trillion years since they last met. This is pretty easily fanwanked away--memory enhancement in the intervening eons, payment from the Time Lords, what-have-you--but it just seemed a little lazy to go in the exact opposite direction that they've been playing up all season long.

Backing up a little, I do not understand all the Clara hate, I truly don't. She was a fun companion with a story and life of her own, who continued to have a story even after her 'impossible girl' plot line was resolved. Enter this series, and she's obviously acting out after the death of the love of her life last season--the way some people might start picking fights at every opportunity, or drinking heavily, just to have their brain focus on something--anything--else. This was not a 'little Doctor' thing, it was a grief reaction, and it got her pretty tragically killed. It's so much worse and more soul-crushing that seeing this, the Doctor spent so long in 'hell' and then tried to break time itself in order to save her. This is the Doctor, caring and protective of his own to a fault.

Major bonus points for the classic TARDIS. I recognized the exterior right away as being the same design that we saw back in The Name of the Doctor, and a few times the same look appeared in the original run. And how about that classic interior?! I just about 'squee'd when it appeared :D

Absolutely agree, Digi. I loved every second of it.

rushy
December 6th, 2015, 06:37 AM
The Doctor's attitude in this episode was bizarre. It's like he doesn't even care that he got back to Gallifrey.

Ian-S
December 6th, 2015, 07:52 AM
I'm afraid this is as much as I have come to expect from Moffat, he seems to have these fantastic ideas for storylines but an absolutely terrible way of presenting them, leaves way too much open to interpretation andwhen anybody points out huge great plot holes to him his answer is 'we're not going to wrap everything up into a nice neat bow for you', to me that's a sign of lazy story writing.

I can imagine he has the beginning and end mapped out and no ideas how to fill in the bits in between, so just, to coin a phrase, makes **** up and hopes nobody notices the flaws.

Sealurk
December 6th, 2015, 08:29 AM
Hell Bent's first twenty minutes were phenomenal. In fact, I'd go further than that - anything and everything Gallifreyan in Hell Bent was excellent - but my main criticism was that after such a long build up it should have been the focus of pretty much the entire episode. Imagine if that first twenty minutes or so - the Doctor returning to Gallifrey and immediately setting about wresting control away from Rassilon and the High Council - was expanded into an entire episode.


I'm afraid this is as much as I have come to expect from Moffat, he seems to have these fantastic ideas for storylines but an absolutely terrible way of presenting them, leaves way too much open to interpretation andwhen anybody points out huge great plot holes to him his answer is 'we're not going to wrap everything up into a nice neat bow for you', to me that's a sign of lazy story writing.

I can imagine he has the beginning and end mapped out and no ideas how to fill in the bits in between, so just, to coin a phrase, makes **** up and hopes nobody notices the flaws.

I used to be the number one Moffat fan, back when he wrote one or two episodes a series and outside of Doctor Who was writing things like Jekyll and Coupling, but since he's become showrunner I do feel his ability has decayed somewhat with each season, and I think it boils down to him being overworked. He's contributed massively to Who - in terms of monsters alone he's given us the Vashta Nerada, the Weeping Angels, the Silents - and he's responsible for a number of truly iconic episodes, but I think he's running out of ideas or simply can't spend as much time on his episodes as they need in order to fill in the plot holes.

As an example, Heaven Sent was, for me, one of his best and the best episodes of Doctor Who I've yet seen, and shows what Moffat can do even now, but he loses his way with his characters - I don't know about anybody else but it feels like he tries too hard with them some time.

Flyboy
December 6th, 2015, 10:47 AM
Hell Bent's first twenty minutes were phenomenal. In fact, I'd go further than that - anything and everything Gallifreyan in Hell Bent was excellent - but my main criticism was that after such a long build up it should have been the focus of pretty much the entire episode. Imagine if that first twenty minutes or so - the Doctor returning to Gallifrey and immediately setting about wresting control away from Rassilon and the High Council - was expanded into an entire episode.



I used to be the number one Moffat fan, back when he wrote one or two episodes a series and outside of Doctor Who was writing things like Jekyll and Coupling, but since he's become showrunner I do feel his ability has decayed somewhat with each season, and I think it boils down to him being overworked. He's contributed massively to Who - in terms of monsters alone he's given us the Vashta Nerada, the Weeping Angels, the Silents - and he's responsible for a number of truly iconic episodes, but I think he's running out of ideas or simply can't spend as much time on his episodes as they need in order to fill in the plot holes.

As an example, Heaven Sent was, for me, one of his best and the best episodes of Doctor Who I've yet seen, and shows what Moffat can do even now, but he loses his way with his characters - I don't know about anybody else but it feels like he tries too hard with them some time.

Seconded.

I was thoroughly loving Hell Bent until the resurrection of Clara, and then it was only tiny little tid bits that I enjoyed - such as the classic TARDIS or seeing the matrix...

knowles2
December 6th, 2015, 11:25 AM
Seeing Gallifrey was great and for a while the episode felt to me like the setup for a truly epic story revolving around the hybrid prophecy and a major clash with Rassilon, especially when the Doctor orders him off the planet.


.

I think that was certainly set up for the next big clash. The Doctor exiling the high council and Rassilon off world, there was even a hint he was sending them to their deaths as there no resources out there.

I wish we got a bit more world building here ready for there return and we saw more of Gallifrey.

I think it was a shame the Doctor killed that general, it means next time he unlikely to be facing a sympathetic army that is more loyal to him than there own government, which I think is a bit of a setback for the show.


The Doctor's attitude in this episode was bizarre. It's like he doesn't even care that he got back to Gallifrey.

He didn't because they killed his best friend at least in his eyes and all he cared about was saving her, even at the cost of himself.

pjt
December 6th, 2015, 03:20 PM
I never would have thought this episode was considered this complicated. It helped watching it twice, it really did, and it all really fits. Throwing "plot holes" at it won't even make a dent.

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
December 6th, 2015, 03:33 PM
As an example, Heaven Sent was, for me, one of his best and the best episodes of Doctor Who I've yet seen, and shows what Moffat can do even now, but he loses his way with his characters - I don't know about anybody else but it feels like he tries too hard with them some time.

I think he gets too attached to his characters. He hasn't really killed any of them. Amy and Rory "died", but after a long life off screen. And now zombie Clara is out there in the universe because he couldn't commit to his first real character death.

Someone needs to call Joss Whedon so he can show Moffat how it's done :p

Whedon!!! How dare you kill Wash like that!! *shakes cane*

rushy
December 6th, 2015, 05:41 PM
He didn't because they killed his best friend at least in his eyes and all he cared about was saving her, even at the cost of himself.

No offense, but if I returned to Earth after thousands of years and some government official killed my best friend, I'd deal with that(and the Doctor ousted Rassilon) and then get to work REUNITING WITH MY HOME PLANET.

P-90_177
December 6th, 2015, 05:57 PM
No offense, but if I returned to Earth after thousands of years and some government official killed my best friend, I'd deal with that(and the Doctor ousted Rassilon) and then get to work REUNITING WITH MY HOME PLANET.

The Doctor would always choose his companions over Gallifrey. He'd rather risk never finding Gallifrey again and being exiled than not save a companion.

Gatefan1976
December 6th, 2015, 06:07 PM
So...........
Hmm........
I have watched this twice now, I even re watched all of this season to get a full view of the arc involved, and I have to say............
I'm not overly impressed.
Don't get me wrong, as an Episode -removed from all context- it is an OK, if not good episode. We get to see Gallifrey again, and it maintains the continunity of what we have seen in NuWho. There are fan callbacks to traditional Who, which is nice, and everything makes a certain sense when viewed through the idea's being presented. Even the "madness" the Doctor displays in killing the General and going to extreme lengths to recover Clara makes a certain sense if you think of it in terms of the history presented in the episode last time he was in the Cloister (going slightly mad), and his anger over being tortured for billions of years.

However:-
Inside the context of the series, I thought if fell flat on its butt.
2 more episodes of Clara -after- her death was just trite and really cheapened Clara's sacrifice in Face the Raven. Yes, Heaven Sent had little screen time with Clara, but the -whole impetus- of the episode was based on Clara. Let her Die FFS!!
Giving Clara The Restaurant at the End of the Universe as a Tardis was a -crap- callback to Douglass Adams having written for Who (and even if it was not meant to be seen in that way, it was still noticeable enough).
Ashilder/Me..........
Dear lord, 3 Episodes all but wasted on her, and she is not even going to be a companion, but to serve as another crappy conscience for the Doctor? (oh and tease the half Time lord/ half Human stuff from the movie??)
Really?
Was it needed?

Is it just me, or would Hell Bent, with a different script excluding Clara as a season opening just have been...... Better?
Rather than wasting Gallifrey on a one shot, we could have seen something great on Gallifrey, harkening back to Trial of a Timelord, or the Deadly Assassin. A few eps where Capaldi could show off his ability to actually -be- the solo doctor for a short while, or at least "companionless" for a bit. Make the On screen regeneration of a Time Lord from male to Female -actually- worth a damn?
Just so much wasted potential :(

aretood2
December 6th, 2015, 06:19 PM
I think he gets too attached to his characters. He hasn't really killed any of them. Amy and Rory "died", but after a long life off screen. And now zombie Clara is out there in the universe because he couldn't commit to his first real character death.

Someone needs to call Joss Whedon so he can show Moffat how it's done :p

Whedon!!! How dare you kill Wash like that!! *shakes cane*

Silly PH, you are thinking of GRR Martin. Now that guy can kill off beloved characters like no one's business.

Anyway, here's my take of things:

Fifteen minutes in it became obvious that this was a send off for Clara (or was it 20? I forget). I do feel cheated that Gallifrey was kinda...not really dealt with. Also, I found it hard to accept how inept the Timelords felt...they are the Doctor's people and yet somehow it feels like UNIT has a better hold of the Doctor than his own people. Now Clara...I am a fan.

I liked Clara because she was different. The Doctor was becoming crazy insane big for my taste, and then comes Clara. A little human who starts calling him out and treating him like an equal (and he accepts it). It brought him down from that weird level that he was elevating to and I liked it. I also enjoyed her as a character, she was fun. Amy and Rory didn't manage that, Donna kinda did, and Rose seemed like a pet to me. I'm forgetting someone...

So I liked how it ended. Now, the universe is a big place and time is very very...timey. So it is easy to accept that they'll never cross paths again.

Now I would love to see the Timelords take an active role in the universe again. Bring the Doctor back to more local level adventures. If the whole universe needs saving, there is an entire race of time travelers that can handle it (and seeing that would be cool).

Coco Pops
December 6th, 2015, 08:31 PM
What I would love to see more of are battles from the past like the great vampire wars, and the bowships and stuff that the Timelords used to hunt them down.

cosmichobo
December 6th, 2015, 11:37 PM
I think as was kind of hinted at - the Doctor may be a Time Lord, from a race of Time Lords, but the Doctor has spent his life "out there", and as has been hinted at - he's "more than just a Time Lord". He has grown more capable, despite the Time Lord's tech.

And again as shown - he can accomplish things without a weapon. (What he did do with a weapon in this ep reallllllly disgusted me... What if he'd said he was on his last?...)

rushy
December 7th, 2015, 06:50 AM
The Doctor would always choose his companions over Gallifrey. He'd rather risk never finding Gallifrey again and being exiled than not save a companion.

Fair enough, I suppose, but the way the episode presented it really left me feeling betrayed. They didn't emphasize the reason why the Doctor would bring Clara back quite enough and made them both look incredibly selfish as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, what was up with shooting the General?

If they had made Gallifrey look a bit more hostile a la End Of Time and made the Doctor an outlaw again, then I'd buy it. But the Doctor has not been hope for 2000 years, half of which he spent believing his people were dead. After he beated Rassilon(far too easily btw), he should've properly reunited with the Gallifreyans, helped them out of trouble and then go and sneak off in a TARDIS again. Instead, he just abandoned them.

thenimf
December 7th, 2015, 03:44 PM
Seriously, what was up with shooting the General?

Missy pointed out that everyone's a Hybrid now "the friend in the enemy, the enemy in the friend".

Also, the General was quite sympathetic to the Doctor knowing he would be shot. He even said good luck. Once she regenerated, she clearly stated that being a male was a one-off oddity for her _ "Back to normal am I? The entire time I was a man in that last body... dear god how do you cope with all that ego?". The male general may possibly even just have been her own War General incarnation for the Time War.

knowles2
December 7th, 2015, 04:45 PM
Fair enough, I suppose, but the way the episode presented it really left me feeling betrayed. They didn't emphasize the reason why the Doctor would bring Clara back quite enough and made them both look incredibly selfish as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, what was up with shooting the General?

If they had made Gallifrey look a bit more hostile a la End Of Time and made the Doctor an outlaw again, then I'd buy it. But the Doctor has not been hope for 2000 years, half of which he spent believing his people were dead. After he beated Rassilon(far too easily btw), he should've properly reunited with the Gallifreyans, helped them out of trouble and then go and sneak off in a TARDIS again. Instead, he just abandoned them.

I agree. I kinda wish he left on better terms or at least on terms which means they could unite together to fight Rassilon and the rest of the high council when they inevitably cause trouble.

The general the turn on the council in the Time War and help the Doctor, one wonders why he himself hasn't taken care of the High Council and Rassilon before the Doctor arrived.

Doctor returning home to a civil war, one where the General and the lower cast of Gallifreyans are fighting against Rassilon and the High council would have been a cooler story to tell, if slightly beyond Doctor Who meagre budget.

cosmichobo
December 7th, 2015, 05:41 PM
Doctor Who has a meager budget???

That storyline could easily have been told over a 3 - 5 parter, with reasonable justice, on a Who budget. Any longer though and you start losing the established casual viewer who expects a new story every week or so...

Coco Pops
December 7th, 2015, 07:41 PM
I am rather amazed at the amount of angst this episode has caused with so called fans. On the BBC DW page on facebook people are upset and in pain over the mere mention of the Doctor changing genders.

I did not realize it would cause such stress.

epg20
December 7th, 2015, 09:26 PM
I am rather amazed at the amount of angst this episode has caused with so called fans. On the BBC DW page on facebook people are upset and in pain over the mere mention of the Doctor changing genders.

I did not realize it would cause such stress.

you want to talk stress, my dvr glitched and the end got cut off of the show, I get up to the point where clara turned off the screen and then it comes up, do you wish to delete this show WHAT?!!! ....NO, CONTINUE PLAYING YOU PIECE OF JUNK, but it was no use, no matter what happened I couldn't get it to play, so I had no choice but to delete it and hope I could watch it again later, I was able to catch the part where the doctor was in the diner on bbc , but only three minutes of the show.

Coco Pops
December 7th, 2015, 10:32 PM
you want to talk stress, my dvr glitched and the end got cut off of the show, I get up to the point where clara turned off the screen and then it comes up, do you wish to delete this show WHAT?!!! ....NO, CONTINUE PLAYING YOU PIECE OF JUNK, but it was no use, no matter what happened I couldn't get it to play, so I had no choice but to delete it and hope I could watch it again later, I was able to catch the part where the doctor was in the diner on bbc , but only three minutes of the show.



Spooky stuff :)

Maybe it was Clara

Gatefan1976
December 7th, 2015, 11:29 PM
I am rather amazed at the amount of angst this episode has caused with so called fans. On the BBC DW page on facebook people are upset and in pain over the mere mention of the Doctor changing genders.

I did not realize it would cause such stress.

Dude.
Log on to somewhere like Gallifrey Base, what you get here is -mild- :lol:

rkgardner2003
December 8th, 2015, 03:35 AM
you want to talk stress, my dvr glitched and the end got cut off of the show, I get up to the point where clara turned off the screen and then it comes up, do you wish to delete this show WHAT?!!! ....NO, CONTINUE PLAYING YOU PIECE OF JUNK, but it was no use, no matter what happened I couldn't get it to play, so I had no choice but to delete it and hope I could watch it again later, I was able to catch the part where the doctor was in the diner on bbc , but only three minutes of the show.

It wasn't just yours, mine did the same thing, luckily I recorded it again and was able to catch the last 15 min....

cosmichobo
December 8th, 2015, 05:10 AM
I am rather amazed at the amount of angst this episode has caused with so called fans. On the BBC DW page on facebook people are upset and in pain over the mere mention of the Doctor changing genders.

I did not realize it would cause such stress.


Dude.
Log on to somewhere like Gallifrey Base, what you get here is -mild- :lol:

I've been a member on GB for a good few years... and ultimately I tend to unsubscribe to the threads I've posted on, because otherwise I get very very agitated... Frankly, I enjoy this site for WHO talk cos - as noted, it's more mild... :)

But... A Female Doctor!? A FEMALE DOCTOR?!?!

;)

Yes, I'd go postal... Sorry, but just because Moffat has taken that step and now shown 2 Time Lords changing gender (and - I still can't accept Missy as the Master), if/when they do it to the Doctor, I really will turn off and go live in repeat land... The whole notion of a female Doctor was only ever originally intended as a publicity stunt... To go through with it would be a joke.

pjt
December 8th, 2015, 06:24 AM
But... A Female Doctor!? A FEMALE DOCTOR?!?!


But then she could fall in love with her female companion...

Coco Pops
December 8th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Sorry I still don't understand this anger over a female Doctor.

You do realize though Timelords look humanoid that's only what we see. It may not even be their true form. In City Of Death an artist is doing a picture of Romana and instead of her face he sees a clock. So they must project something around them...

Ian-S
December 8th, 2015, 06:59 PM
It wasn't just yours, mine did the same thing, luckily I recorded it again and was able to catch the last 15 min....

It started late iirc, I was worried too because we were nearly 20 minutes into the recording when Who started and our machine only puts a 10 minute buffer either side, (I can usually skip to 10 mins and get it just on the BBC ident, but this time 10 minute in and Strictly was still dancing) luckily the only bit we missed was the end of the second Xmas trailer at the end.

Plus our EPG had the wrong time for the episode on for most of the week, only correcting on the Friday evening.

epg20
December 8th, 2015, 07:43 PM
But then she could fall in love with her female companion...

I don't know about that, that might be pushing things for them, they might just have HER, fall for a male companion.

what I want to see is if they would think about making a new K-9.

Flyboy
December 9th, 2015, 02:14 PM
I don't know about that, that might be pushing things for them, they might just have HER, fall for a male companion.

what I want to see is if they would think about making a new K-9.

Well... You know there's a K9 movie coming out in 2017... ' Time Quake'?

cosmichobo
December 9th, 2015, 10:38 PM
I don't know about that, that might be pushing things for them, they might just have HER, fall for a male companion.

what I want to see is if they would think about making a new K-9.


Well... You know there's a K9 movie coming out in 2017... ' Time Quake'?

And the series a few years ago, that was filmed in Brisbane... A gal I once worked with was a prod. assistant...

pjt
December 10th, 2015, 06:10 AM
I don't know about that, that might be pushing things for them, they might just have HER, fall for a male companion.

Nah, that would be too every day.



what I want to see is if they would think about making a new K-9.

However, the female doctor could fall in love with K-9. Now why does this remind me of the Black Hole Sun video...

Ian-S
December 10th, 2015, 08:42 AM
Watched it a second time now, it was better than I originally gave it credit for, but really the story doesn't make much sense other than the whole wanting to save Clara thing and going dolallie as a result, returning to Galifray was a bit of a wasted opportunity.

I read an interview where Moff said he had changed something fundamental and wasn't sure how people would react to it, does anybody know what this was? Was it the whole gender reassignment regeneration or something else like the Doctor being affected by a 'human compatible neuroblock with the polarity reversed'?

I also had to laugh at that, I assume it was a poke at Star Trek.

Flyboy
December 10th, 2015, 12:44 PM
Watched it a second time now, it was better than I originally gave it credit for, but really the story doesn't make much sense other than the whole wanting to save Clara thing and going dolallie as a result, returning to Galifray was a bit of a wasted opportunity.

I read an interview where Moff said he had changed something fundamental and wasn't sure how people would react to it, does anybody know what this was? Was it the whole gender reassignment regeneration or something else like the Doctor being affected by a 'human compatible neuroblock with the polarity reversed'?

I also had to laugh at that, I assume it was a poke at Star Trek.

I think it was the Doctor leaving Gallifrey, not because he was bored, but because he was scared.

It fits, as according to the Big Finish audios... (major spoilers for the Doctor's life pre-Gallifrey):


The then President issued a 'burn edict' (kill order) to a senior official responsible for such operations, known as Lord Burner. This individual was The Doctor's brother, by the name of Irving Braxiatel. Rather than carry out the operation though, he allowed The Doctor to flee Gallifrey. It is then seriously implied that Irving arranged for the President of Gallifrey at the time to meet an unfortunate end due to an electrical fault in his office...


With that in mind, it's possible that The Doctor became a target for 'burning' because of the Hybrid prophecy...

Coco Pops
December 10th, 2015, 06:41 PM
I think it was the Doctor leaving Gallifrey, not because he was bored, but because he was scared.

It fits, as according to the Big Finish audios... (major spoilers for the Doctor's life pre-Gallifrey):


The then President issued a 'burn edict' (kill order) to a senior official responsible for such operations, known as Lord Burner. This individual was The Doctor's brother, by the name of Irving Braxiatel. Rather than carry out the operation though, he allowed The Doctor to flee Gallifrey. It is then seriously implied that Irving arranged for the President of Gallifrey at the time to meet an unfortunate end due to an electrical fault in his office...


With that in mind, it's possible that The Doctor became a target for 'burning' because of the Hybrid prophecy...



And that sound 1000 times more awesome then anything Moffat wrote.

Ian-S
December 10th, 2015, 06:55 PM
Hmm now that might explain why the lady in the beginning said something about maintaining the barn for 'the two boys' or something similar, I assume she meant Doctor and Master at the time.

epg20
December 10th, 2015, 09:21 PM
Watched it a second time now, it was better than I originally gave it credit for, but really the story doesn't make much sense other than the whole wanting to save Clara thing and going dolallie as a result, returning to Galifray was a bit of a wasted opportunity.

I read an interview where Moff said he had changed something fundamental and wasn't sure how people would react to it, does anybody know what this was? Was it the whole gender reassignment regeneration or something else like the Doctor being affected by a 'human compatible neuroblock with the polarity reversed'?

I also had to laugh at that, I assume it was a poke at Star Trek.

maybe that" something fundamental " was that the doctor shot someone, that was a MAJORalteration for the doctor, he NEVER shot any one, if he used a gun, he shot something, a pipe, rope, ground, what ever, but he never EVER shot someone.

Gatefan1976
December 10th, 2015, 09:28 PM
maybe that" something fundamental " was that the doctor shot someone, that was a MAJORalteration for the doctor, he NEVER shot any one, if he used a gun, he shot something, a pipe, rope, ground, what ever, but he never EVER shot someone.

The Doctor has killed, many, many people.
Not so much in NuWho, but certainly over time.

epg20
December 10th, 2015, 09:42 PM
Well... You know there's a K9 movie coming out in 2017... ' Time Quake'?

oh dear god I had no idea.

http://io9.com/doctor-whos-robot-dog-k9-is-getting-his-own-movie-1738754285?trending_test_three_a&utm_expid=66866090-68.NesmD4FSTbKroxp5qEjtVQ.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc% 3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D2%26cad%3Drja%26uact%3D8%26ved%3D0ahUKEwiBk_iGitPJAhXB QCYKHdppB9UQFggqMAE%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fio9.com%252Fdoctor-whos-robot-dog-k9-is-getting-his-own-movie-1738754285%26usg%3DAFQjCNEC1MK4t0RPKuqXBpdJhwEnAipbIA%26sig2%3Duu0U9UHlj5WSfr4zi 6J44Q

this is starting to look very bad.

K9 - The Korven - Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyMSZFbNlJk

epg20
December 10th, 2015, 09:46 PM
The Doctor has killed, many, many people.
Not so much in NuWho, but certainly over time.

yes, but he never used a gun to kill them, he never directly pulled a gun and shot them directly, it's one of his quirks..

Gatefan1976
December 10th, 2015, 10:47 PM
yes, but he never used a gun to kill them, he never directly pulled a gun and shot them directly, it's one of his quirks..
It's also a way for him to dodge responsibility.
Signing the paper that says "execute them" is in no way more "noble" than being the axeman, in fact, it is probably less noble.

cosmichobo
December 10th, 2015, 11:37 PM
epg20, I feel your pain. I think McCoy needs to come back and have a stern talking to Capaldi...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6c6AxhAal0


It's also a way for him to dodge responsibility.
Signing the paper that says "execute them" is in no way more "noble" than being the axeman, in fact, it is probably less noble.


It's also a way for him to dodge responsibility.
Signing the paper that says "execute them" is in no way more "noble" than being the axeman, in fact, it is probably less noble.

I've no doubt some uni student at some time has written a thesis on this - how much blood is directly/indirectly on the Doctor's hands... when it was "justified"... Whether he'd get off in a court of law...

I'd like to think that ultimately there have been very few cases of real negligence, and worse - "murder" or manslaughter, committed by the Doctor... Of course, that's a thread unto itself...

Gatefan1976
December 11th, 2015, 12:20 AM
epg20, I feel your pain. I think McCoy needs to come back and have a stern talking to Capaldi...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6c6AxhAal0





I've no doubt some uni student at some time has written a thesis on this - how much blood is directly/indirectly on the Doctor's hands... when it was "justified"... Whether he'd get off in a court of law...

I'd like to think that ultimately there have been very few cases of real negligence, and worse - "murder" or manslaughter, committed by the Doctor... Of course, that's a thread unto itself...

I think "on balance" you are probably right Cosmic, but I wish to restrict my observations to the Doctor "doing the deed" himself really is not that much of an oddity. It being -shown- on screen certainly is less likely, but even just in this series with Ashildr taking the role of "picking up the pieces" after the doctor leaves is an indicative of the damage that he does along the way. He does not even have the temerity to argue with her!!
Of course, the pieces are also not the Doctors concern to a degree.

cosmichobo
December 11th, 2015, 02:04 AM
I think back in Stolen Earth/Journey's End, Davros makes ultimately some very good points regarding the Doctor "turning" people into... well, an army.

****, I'm go going to have to document this at some point...

Lives lost due to the Doctor's involvement:
Lives saved due to the Doctor's involvement:

Logopolis gave us a large chunk of the known universe saved.... But Pandorica - the entire universe was lost... Maybe the rest is just small change. :)

Gatefan1976
December 11th, 2015, 02:27 AM
I think back in Stolen Earth/Journey's End, Davros makes ultimately some very good points regarding the Doctor "turning" people into... well, an army.

I think it is better to think of them like Harry Potters DATDA class.
Harry certainly does not intend for anyone to have to use what he has shown them, but they have to, and even then, it is confused with "Dumbledore's Army".
I don't think the Doctor -tries- to make warriors, but often what he says -results- in the construction of warriors, despite his intentions. Dumbledore turns his "companions" into warriors, so does the Doctor, not from intent, but from their respective "companions" reacting to his teachings. Also, the Doctor is "above it all" to an extent, but those he travels with are not.



****, I'm go going to have to document this at some point...

Lives lost due to the Doctor's involvement:
Lives saved due to the Doctor's involvement:

Well, I hope your clicker finger is primed before you do it!! :lol:


Logopolis gave us a large chunk of the known universe saved.... But Pandorica - the entire universe was lost... Maybe the rest is just small change. :)
To the Doctor? Perhaps.

FennerMachine
December 11th, 2015, 04:48 AM
Peter Davison's doctor shot a Cyberman with a ray gun.
Tom Baker shot a giant rat with a shotgun/rifle.

Coco Pops
December 11th, 2015, 05:13 AM
Peter Davison's doctor shot a Cyberman with a ray gun.


And so did other doctors at various points in time..

I just had a funny thought regarding Clara's TARDIS.. She now has an added "porch" in the form of the diner interior, I wonder if she will make souffles while in flight of if you travel with her she could fix you a latte.

Flyboy
December 11th, 2015, 05:53 AM
Hmm now that might explain why the lady in the beginning said something about maintaining the barn for 'the two boys' or something similar, I assume she meant Doctor and Master at the time.

Very possibly. Irving also spent a lot of time off of Gallifrey. Initially through official diplomatic missions, and later when he too went a little bit rogue...

cosmichobo
December 11th, 2015, 12:27 PM
Peter Davison's doctor shot a Cyberman with a ray gun.
Tom Baker shot a giant rat with a shotgun/rifle.

When?

If you're thinking Earthshock, think again. He holds the gun, aims it, but the doors close before he has to use it.

aretood2
December 11th, 2015, 02:05 PM
He also wanted to shoot the Dalek way back in season 1...Rose is the only thing that stopped him.

Flyboy
December 11th, 2015, 02:09 PM
The Doctor once snapped someone's neck with his bare hands...
For anyone interested in a round up of the Doctor and violence...

Short version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74

Long Version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw

rushy
December 11th, 2015, 02:21 PM
And let's not forget him zapping that Ogron in Day Of The Daleks... with a gun.

aretood2
December 11th, 2015, 06:47 PM
The Doctor is a real OG.

FennerMachine
December 12th, 2015, 03:11 AM
So that's at least 4 classic series Doctor's that have used a gun to kill someone or something.
John Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davison and Colin Baker.
Tom even used an ultimate Time Lord weapon to erase someone from existence!
Plus all the other times the Doctor has offed someone using some sort of weapon such as Sylvester McCoy using explosives, living metal and a black hole generator.

cosmichobo
December 12th, 2015, 04:12 AM
In Deep Breath, after Clara talks to 11 on the phone, the Doctor says to her - "I'm right here but you can't even see me..."

And in the end... He was right there, staring at her, but he couldn't see her...

cosmichobo
December 12th, 2015, 02:41 PM
And... How many regenerations did the Lord Pres say they'd given the Doctor???

Sealurk
December 12th, 2015, 03:50 PM
And... How many regenerations did the Lord Pres say they'd given the Doctor???

He didn't say, unfortunately, his exact words were...


How many regenerations did we grant you? I've got all night.

...so we still don't know how many times the Doctor can regenerate this time around (though we do know it's a finite number, at least). There's no guarantee they'll even give us a concrete number at any point - most likely it'll be kept vague for a long time yet.

cosmichobo
December 12th, 2015, 09:20 PM
Ahh - watched it twice and, as my brain was expecting "night" to be a number, I was hearing "ninety" or "nine"... That makes more sense...

Ian-S
December 13th, 2015, 07:12 PM
I thought they gave him another 12?

epg20
December 13th, 2015, 09:28 PM
I just remembered this, when the doctor entered the town they showed the sign , I don't remember the name of the town, but I remember the slogan that was on the sign, because it was from Buckaroo Banzai, "no matter where you go , there you are."

Buckaroo Banzai - There You Are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv_jkju_iZg

Sealurk
December 14th, 2015, 02:40 AM
I thought they gave him another 12?

That does seem the most likely since the Eleventh Doctor states "a whole new regeneration cycle" which would imply a dozen regenerations, but it's never explicitly stated how many regenerations this particular cycle can sustain. In 'Kill the Moon' the Doctor says:

You'll have to spend a lot of time shooting me because I will keep on regenerating. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that I won't keep on regenerating for ever.
So I think they're being deliberately vague on how many regenerations he has. Given that at the time the Time Lords granted him the new cycle he was their one and only hope it would stand to reason they would give him as many lives as possible, but Rassilon's comment suggests it's a finite number at least.

cosmichobo
December 15th, 2015, 05:36 AM
Oh, and - Moffat was paraphrasing (his) The Curse of Fatal Death when 12 was saying goodbye to Clara...

Curse of Fatal Death:
EMMA: He was never cruel and never cowardly, and it'll never be safe to be scared again.

Hell Bent:
DOCTOR: Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.

rushy
December 15th, 2015, 11:45 AM
Oh, and - Moffat was paraphrasing (his) The Curse of Fatal Death when 12 was saying goodbye to Clara...

Curse of Fatal Death:
EMMA: He was never cruel and never cowardly, and it'll never be safe to be scared again.

Hell Bent:
DOCTOR: Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.

He quoted that in The Day Of The Doctor too, so its not really that significant.

maneth
January 2nd, 2016, 01:01 AM
This one's interesting. How long has the Doctor been a hybrid? Since his 8th incarnation? I should watch the movie again...

cosmichobo
January 2nd, 2016, 01:31 AM
This one's interesting. How long has the Doctor been a hybrid? Since his 8th incarnation? I should watch the movie again...

Well, Moffat refrained from full on calling the Doctor a human/Time Lord hybrid... He suggested instead that Clara & the Doctor could be the hybrid...

Otherwise... I'd say it's not so much that he only became a Hybrid at a point in time, but has always been - just never admitted to, until The Movie...

Frankly I was expecting them to reprise the "half human" thing the way it was going... shocked they didn't.

P-90_177
January 2nd, 2016, 06:55 PM
Well, Moffat refrained from full on calling the Doctor a human/Time Lord hybrid... He suggested instead that Clara & the Doctor could be the hybrid...

Otherwise... I'd say it's not so much that he only became a Hybrid at a point in time, but has always been - just never admitted to, until The Movie...

Frankly I was expecting them to reprise the "half human" thing the way it was going... shocked they didn't.

I was one of those fans who always hated that line in the movie, but with how it was written in this episode, if they had dropped the bombshell I actually may have approved.

cosmichobo
January 2nd, 2016, 07:15 PM
The whole hybrid thing is just such a massive retcon... Yes, I will admit that it always did feel as though there was "more to" the Doctor leaving than simple boredom as he explained to Jamie and Zoe, but fear that he would destroy Gallifrey? Nah. Much more like the idea of him having been involved in some nasty dirty adventure with the Celestial Intervention Agency, and having to flee...

P-90_177
January 2nd, 2016, 07:43 PM
I stand by the notion that Susan is the Hybrid which is why he took her with him in the first place, but he'll play up the idea that he is so it throws suspicion off her.

maneth
January 2nd, 2016, 09:48 PM
And if Susan's the hybrid, would the Doctor be her grandfather in a literal sense?

rushy
January 3rd, 2016, 08:18 AM
The whole hybrid thing is just such a massive retcon... Yes, I will admit that it always did feel as though there was "more to" the Doctor leaving than simple boredom as he explained to Jamie and Zoe, but fear that he would destroy Gallifrey? Nah. Much more like the idea of him having been involved in some nasty dirty adventure with the Celestial Intervention Agency, and having to flee...

I always thought he was trying to make a political statement, you know, showing the other Time Lords that he's not going to blindly follow the rules.

Coco Pops
January 3rd, 2016, 05:02 PM
I stand by the notion that Susan is the Hybrid which is why he took her with him in the first place, but he'll play up the idea that he is so it throws suspicion off her.


And if Susan's the hybrid, would the Doctor be her grandfather in a literal sense?


But Susan's never been mentioned? How would she take over Gallifrey?

aretood2
January 3rd, 2016, 06:12 PM
Frankly I don't see how she could go evil crazy, such a mild mannered lady...I only saw the two first episodes...

cosmichobo
January 3rd, 2016, 07:05 PM
Frankly I don't see how she could go evil crazy, such a mild mannered lady...I only saw the two first episodes...

Watch the 3rd... And don't let her near a pair of scissors...