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GateWorld
September 29th, 2015, 10:58 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/the-zygon-inversion/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-zygon-inversion-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SEASON 35 (9)</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/the-zygon-inversion/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">THE ZYGON INVERSION</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3508 (908)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">With the shapeshifting Zygon rebels poised to force their own people to revert to their natural form all around the world, the Doctor must find a way to stop a war that appears inevitable. Meanwhile, Clara fights back against the Zygon leader who has taken her form.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/the-zygon-inversion/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Sealurk
November 7th, 2015, 12:51 PM
Okay, I have to say - that was an absolutely cracking episode. Some issues, sure, but very satisfying on a lot of fronts.

Teddybrown
November 7th, 2015, 12:51 PM
Pretty good episode, and another great speech from the Doctor!

Cant believe we only have four episodes left though...

Flyboy
November 7th, 2015, 12:53 PM
FIVE ROUNDS RAPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OMFG YES!


I am bouncing off the walls with geeky joy!

GodAtum
November 7th, 2015, 12:57 PM
During the end scenes, I eneded up subsituting Zygons with ISIS.

Sealurk
November 7th, 2015, 01:00 PM
FIVE ROUNDS RAPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OMFG YES!


I am bouncing off the walls with geeky joy!

So was I! For some reason I thought you in particular would like that, not sure why... :D

Great episode, I'm looking forward to rewatching it already. Though I do have wonder - will the Doctor ever actually get to experience a landing while aboard Boat One / the UNIT presidential transport?

Flyboy
November 7th, 2015, 01:16 PM
Thoroughly loved this episode, totally lived up to part one. I want it spliced together as a movie! :D

Also, anyone notice what was in the Black Archive behind The Doctor during his (awesome) speech?

Also, given that I'm now watching The Festival of Remembrance, I'd like to add this was quite a poignant episode for the time of year...

Teddybrown
November 7th, 2015, 02:42 PM
Thoroughly loved this episode, totally lived up to part one. I want it spliced together as a movie! :D

Also, anyone notice what was in the Black Archive behind The Doctor during his (awesome) speech?

Also, given that I'm now watching The Festival of Remembrance, I'd like to add this was quite a poignant episode for the time of year...

Wasnt it one of the Mire helmets? I was wondering that too...

Also, this five rounds rapid quote, when was this in the episode? I completely missed it, also whats the relevance?

Sealurk
November 7th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Wasnt it one of the Mire helmets? I was wondering that too...

Also, this five rounds rapid quote, when was this in the episode? I completely missed it, also whats the relevance?

Kate says it when explaining how she escaped the Zygon, and it's particularly great and a tad poignant because "five rounds rapid" was more or less the catchphrase of her father (the one and only Brigadier Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart).

Teddybrown
November 7th, 2015, 03:46 PM
Kate says it when explaining how she escaped the Zygon, and it's particularly great and a tad poignant because "five rounds rapid" was more or less the catchphrase of her father (the one and only Brigadier Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart).

Ohhh, right!

cosmichobo
November 7th, 2015, 09:32 PM
I don't know if Battlefield ever had a specific battlefield in mind... whereas this story obviously has modern terrorism very much at its heart... Regardless, I've always felt that Sylvester's plea to Morgaine was one of his finest hours, and now Capaldi has absolutely shone in this, one of the most brilliantly written and acted pieces of television I've seen in... yonks.

Ep2 was leaps and bounds ahead of Ep1, simply because it had so much more bite, more going on, more more more. And more Dark Clara... Good God... Yum! :P

I was by no means a fan of what they did with the Ice Warrior revamp... (all good, til Mr Spindly appeared...) But the modern Zygons, both here and in Day, have been a fairly good re-invention, plus extension, of the original.

It's a shame Osgood didn't even get 1 spin in the TARDIS... maybe one day.

Coco Pops
November 7th, 2015, 11:14 PM
I just watched both back to back and I'm not really that enamored with this story.. It just irks me.

Jolly good they had those parachutes on the plane and the Doctors was 007's old leftover from one of his old adventures hehe. But how did they have enough time to put those on when the missile hit?

I think personally the Doctor was wrong to grant 20 million of them asylum on Earth given their past history with him and UNIT. If anything he has a TARDIS why not relocate them on another world?

Why Earth of all places?

Part 1 was actually a hell of a lot better then this 2nd part..

Clara and the Osgoods annoy me. I don't know why fans like her so much, I find Osgood a bad caricature.

Blencathra
November 8th, 2015, 01:15 AM
This one was a slight improvement over last week's rubbish, but I still thought it was a load of steaming cow pats with sparkly lights on top.

Capaldi's speech bored me and a double dose of Clara was nearly more than I could bear. And I am sick to death of the constant references to how wonderful Clara is. Every episode I'm just waiting and hoping for her to die.

I found "Clara" shooting the plane out the sky very disquieting, particularly when coupled with the fact that the Doctor and Osgood didn't seem to care about what happened to the pilots or anyone else.

I absolutely loathe episodes with heavy doses of allegory. That's the main reason I gave up on Star Trek. I don't mind if the inferences are subtle and easily ignored, or if the episode was written by Robert Holmes. But that ham fisted bun vendor Peter Harness is NOT Robert Holmes.

The only redeeming part was the "five rounds rapid" reference.

For anyone who doesn't get it, here's where it came from.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grVDUL_en0

P-90_177
November 8th, 2015, 02:38 AM
An absolutely fantastic episode to my mind, and probably one of the best this series. Pretty much everything that Flyboy said. :P At this point I'm really not looking forward to Clara's departure.

Coco Pops
November 8th, 2015, 03:15 AM
That ending was very ominous with the "one month" line.... Dum de dum, ominous music for Clara I think..

Doctor's speech was good, and BAFTA material I think.

Didn't the Doctor kill off a whole race in The Macra Terror? He had no qualms about that... Why so different with the Zygons?

Oh and Zygella..

I picture a cameo with Nigella Lawson playing Zygella. The Zygon cooking show.

P-90_177
November 8th, 2015, 04:17 AM
That ending was very ominous with the "one month" line.... Dum de dum, ominous music for Clara I think..

Doctor's speech was good, and BAFTA material I think.

Didn't the Doctor kill off a whole race in The Macra Terror? He had no qualms about that... Why so different with the Zygons?

Oh and Zygella..

I picture a cameo with Nigella Lawson playing Zygella. The Zygon cooking show.

He's killed off entire races a few times. But that's the point. More often than not the Doctor has to choose one race over another to save one, but he always hates that. The opportunity to make peace comes around really rarely for him, but he knows at the end of the day that an alien race isn't all bad (excepts for Daleks, Cybermen and the like). There are warmongers, sure, but there are a lot who want peace too.So when he gets that opportunity such as with the Zygons, or Silurians then he will take it. That why he designed the idea of the Osgood box. It's his way of insuring the peace is kept.

Coco Pops
November 8th, 2015, 06:41 AM
He's killed off entire races a few times. But that's the point. More often than not the Doctor has to choose one race over another to save one, but he always hates that. The opportunity to make peace comes around really rarely for him, but he knows at the end of the day that an alien race isn't all bad (excepts for Daleks, Cybermen and the like). There are warmongers, sure, but there are a lot who want peace too.So when he gets that opportunity such as with the Zygons, or Silurians then he will take it. That why he designed the idea of the Osgood box. It's his way of insuring the peace is kept.



I guess, but what's to stop this happening again, and again, and again?

The Doctor may not be around the next time.

Sealurk
November 8th, 2015, 08:09 AM
I too was a little bothered by the total lack of concern for everybody else on the plane. I seem to remember at least one UNIT soldier and of course the crew (and a zygon). Plus, and I realise this is a fairly minor niggle since we're not really dealing with a grounded and realistic depiction of the military or their hardware... but wouldn't a military VIP transport used to carry the President of the World in times of extreme emergency have countermeasures? Like, I dunno, flares, chaff, decoys, radar and IR jammers and such. The VC-25 (the plane everybody calls Air Force One) almost certainly does, and that merely carries the President of the United States!

"Don't look at my browser history." I imagine Eleven would have some choice words for Twelve on this subject.

Osgood talking about how she would start to conquer the world, i.e. simply killing the Doctor without letting him talk. Many have wondered why the Doctor's adversaries don't simply kill him on the spot, and we still don't have an explanation why but it was fun seeing it addressed in universe.

Bonnie destroying the laptop - why was my first thought "that was a totally unnecessary waste of a perfectly good computer, both in-universe and in reality"?

"I'm old enough to be your messiah!"

Oh... this could be my overactive mind seeing patterns where there aren't (hey, it's why the Eighth Doctor loves us) but this exchange raised an eyebrow on second viewing: "You're you." "I'm me." "But human or zygon?" "I'm me." Of course, we've already seen Ashildr in Clara's time, but it could be a nod.

Capaldi's American accent was grating, but as hammy as it was I did like Twelve's big impassioned speech at the end. Nice callback to Day of the Doctor.

I do wonder if this episode is basically the end of the zygons as a threat - from now on and barring individuals or small groups will they be more or less friendly aliens, like the Ood?

Definitely enjoyed this episode far, far more than part one. It has its problems, yes, but overall I found it entertaining and not quite as nonsensical as the first part.

Matt G
November 8th, 2015, 03:03 PM
1. One of Clara's better eps this season...but her influence over Bonnie was slightly flukey.

2. One hell of a performance from Capaldi...not exactly a pacifist myself but yeah...points very much noted Doctor.

3. Last moment with the Osgoods was a bit cheesy.

Solid ep, and in it's own way very powerful...but slightly anti-climatic after last week.

Coco Pops
November 8th, 2015, 04:44 PM
I liked parts of the 2nd episode. The big speech in the black archive was I think award worthy and I half expected someone to give him a BAFTA or Oscar after that speech LOL. It was great.

Did you notice no music, no sound just Capaldi delivering those lines? It was terrific.

Blencathra
November 8th, 2015, 11:59 PM
I too was a little bothered by the total lack of concern for everybody else on the plane. I seem to remember at least one UNIT soldier and of course the crew (and a zygon). ...

The more I think about this the more and more angry I am getting.

In DoctorWhoLand a terrorist can kill hundreds of people, force others to commit suicide and shoot a plane out of the sky, and what happens to them? A trial and then prison? No. They say "sorry I won't do it again" and they get let off. Then they can go live happily ever after with Osgood and eat ice cream.

It's obscene.

cosmichobo
November 9th, 2015, 01:10 AM
There is a LOT lacking, in terms of what the rebels have done... How many humans have they killed... and... who would ever know whether there is in fact any humans left after X period of time if they just keep sneaking people away and replacing them... Very Body Snatcherish...

And, when the Doctor says that he forgives Zyclara... The (bad?) human in me just found it so hard to accept... much as I could never, and largely still can't reconcile my father forgiving the man who killed my grandparents in a car crash 18 years ago... I can understand, I can accept it was an "accident", it was careless, but without intent... but his actions still killed them... And here, we're not talking accidents... we're talking bazooka shooting murder...

BUT, if no one forgives... then the cycle continues... an eye for an eye is never the way...

Blencathra
November 9th, 2015, 01:33 AM
Some things can never be forgiven.

Though obviously Peter Harness doesn't think so. According to him, if you are a member of IS or if you shot down MH17 with a BUK missile, you can go merrily on your way with a full pardon and a tub of mint choc chip.

Coco Pops
November 9th, 2015, 01:39 AM
I am agreeing with Blen..

Flyboy
November 9th, 2015, 06:28 AM
Some things can never be forgiven.

Though obviously Peter Harness doesn't think so. According to him, if you are a member of IS or if you shot down MH17 with a BUK missile, you can go merrily on your way with a full pardon and a tub of mint choc chip.

Unfortunately, it's a common theme in reality. The most notable examples are the 'Troubles' in Ireland and the Rwandan genocide. I don't like it myself, it goes against all of my principles for justice and what I feel to be 'right' - but on occasion mass forgiveness occurs because it's the only way to move forward from civil war, as the only alternative is continued violence.

Coco Pops
November 9th, 2015, 05:17 PM
Unfortunately, it's a common theme in reality. The most notable examples are the 'Troubles' in Ireland and the Rwandan genocide. I don't like it myself, it goes against all of my principles for justice and what I feel to be 'right' - but on occasion mass forgiveness occurs because it's the only way to move forward from civil war, as the only alternative is continued violence.



Or you hunt down each and every perpetrator and end them.

P-90_177
November 9th, 2015, 05:34 PM
Unfortunately, it's a common theme in reality. The most notable examples are the 'Troubles' in Ireland and the Rwandan genocide. I don't like it myself, it goes against all of my principles for justice and what I feel to be 'right' - but on occasion mass forgiveness occurs because it's the only way to move forward from civil war, as the only alternative is continued violence.

Not to mention War in general. Like the Doctor said, when the war is over you sit down and you make peace.

Ultimately, Bonnie wasn't evil. Her actions in the end proved that. What she wanted is an escape from what she felt was oppression which in all fairness is true. The result of the treaty forces Zygons to live in human form. It's a poor example from a historical perspective, but imagine what the feeling would be at the end of the Slave trade if people said to former slaves "Yes you can live amongst us, but you have to paint your faces white".

Ultimately we may always feel like making people who cause suffering to pay a price, whether that be in their death or going to prison, but then in that case you have to accept that normally such people are fighting because they perceive, rightly or wrongly, some form of persecution or threat to themselves, and sometimes, more often than we would prefer, they aren't entirely wrong. Consider the fact that the growth of IS as a greater international threat has occurred largely in part of Western intervention in the area over the last decade. Now somewhere along the way a lot of religious dogma gets mingled in with that, but that's ISIS. Within the context of the episode and the Zygons, there wasn't that sort of religious aspect to consider but the bare bones of why people fight for a cause.

Coco Pops
November 9th, 2015, 07:09 PM
Well golly gee the smart thing might have been to let the Zygons live in their natural form. Might have not caused so many problems. Or at the very least the Doctor could have relocated them. That wasn't out of his powers.

Coco Pops
November 10th, 2015, 12:51 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308986/Fury-BBC-airing-Dr-episode-showing-passenger-jet-blown-sky-just-week-224-killed-Russian-jet-tragedy.html

Some people were not happy with the episode.

cosmichobo
November 10th, 2015, 04:37 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308986/Fury-BBC-airing-Dr-episode-showing-passenger-jet-blown-sky-just-week-224-killed-Russian-jet-tragedy.html

Some people were not happy with the episode.

It did occur to me that we'd just seen a plane blown up by terrorists... and of course, last year as well... But - when you take into account what the episode says about war...

Maybe if my family had been involved in those events I'd be more upset, but for me, it wasn't insensitive... It borrows heavily on real life, even before real life events occurred.

Coco Pops
November 10th, 2015, 04:43 AM
I don't know the whole 2nd part gives me lots of misgivings.. It just doesn't sit right with me.

dipsofjazz
November 10th, 2015, 08:40 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308986/Fury-BBC-airing-Dr-episode-showing-passenger-jet-blown-sky-just-week-224-killed-Russian-jet-tragedy.html

Some people were not happy with the episode.

This is the Daily Fail. They take offence at everything! Did you read the article? It quoted four tweets. Hardly a mass fury.

Blencathra
November 10th, 2015, 09:59 AM
Yes, the Daily Mail isn't at all reliable. They have it in for Doctor Who every year.

However, there have been complaints and the BBC has responded to them on it's website.

Doctor Who, BBC One, 7 November 2015

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaint/DoctorWho71115/

Complaint:

We received complaints from viewers who felt that scenes showing the destruction of an aeroplane were inappropriate in light of recent events.

Response:

We’re aware that elements of drama programmes can sometimes bring to mind real events, and we always think very carefully about this.

In this case, though, the story was presented as a science fiction fantasy, far removed from the real world. The episode didn’t depict a passenger-carrying commercial airliner - it was a military aircraft on official business - and both the Doctor and his companion survived.

With this in mind we didn’t feel the scenes would be outside of most viewers’ expectations for the programme, but we appreciate the differing feedback we’ve received.

Flyboy
November 10th, 2015, 12:33 PM
Or you hunt down each and every perpetrator and end them.

And that's how you continue an escalating war.

Coco Pops
November 10th, 2015, 06:11 PM
Yes, the Daily Mail isn't at all reliable. They have it in for Doctor Who every year.

However, there have been complaints and the BBC has responded to them on it's website.

Doctor Who, BBC One, 7 November 2015

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaint/DoctorWho71115/

Complaint:

We received complaints from viewers who felt that scenes showing the destruction of an aeroplane were inappropriate in light of recent events.

Response:

We’re aware that elements of drama programmes can sometimes bring to mind real events, and we always think very carefully about this.

In this case, though, the story was presented as a science fiction fantasy, far removed from the real world. The episode didn’t depict a passenger-carrying commercial airliner - it was a military aircraft on official business - and both the Doctor and his companion survived.

With this in mind we didn’t feel the scenes would be outside of most viewers’ expectations for the programme, but we appreciate the differing feedback we’ve received.



But everyone else on the plane, well they just don't matter do they BBC?

If they let that one threw why did they censor Robot Of Sherwood?

cosmichobo
November 11th, 2015, 12:42 AM
But everyone else on the plane, well they just don't matter do they BBC?

If they let that one threw why did they censor Robot Of Sherwood?

Has it been The Daily Mail that keeps saying next series will be halved/cancelled? (such that now, Moffat has explicitly said - bullocks - full season next year.)

I had no idea about the beheading censorship... Interesting. Were the scenes restored for DVD?

I'm trying hard not to ruin this for me, as I've finally really started liking Capaldi... (or at least, the stories given him) In Pertwee's era, you could be sure of the Doc making a comment such as...





THIRD DOCTOR (to Jo):

But don't forget Jo; think all those people whose lives were taken so senselessly...


JO GRANT (breathless for some reason)
Yes, Doctor!


THIRD DOCTOR (to Zyclara):
But they didn't die in vain. We'll all make sure of that, wont we.

Flyboy
November 11th, 2015, 01:28 AM
But everyone else on the plane, well they just don't matter do they BBC?

If they let that one threw why did they censor Robot Of Sherwood?

The BBC said no one died. Therefore you can assume that everybody else was able to abandon the aircraft to, they just didn't land where The Doctor did.

Coco Pops
November 11th, 2015, 06:26 AM
The BBC said no one died. Therefore you can assume that everybody else was able to abandon the aircraft to, they just didn't land where The Doctor did.


Fair enough..

Still not sure if I like this episode or not.

GodAtum
November 14th, 2015, 06:51 AM
I think the BBC should show the Doctor's speech again, it will make people think after what happened in Paris. is there a Youtube clip of it?

P-90_177
November 14th, 2015, 08:18 AM
I think the BBC should show the Doctor's speech again, it will make people think after what happened in Paris. is there a Youtube clip of it?

Of course. :P


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0ymVp8qdo

Coco Pops
November 14th, 2015, 06:58 PM
I'm on the outside and the only one that doesn't like Clara or the Osgoods.

Still think Bonnie got off too lightly.

Only good thing was the speech by the Doctor.

cosmichobo
November 15th, 2015, 12:06 AM
Oh, plenty of people are sick of Clara... and occasionally I get a bit..... meh about her. Especially the whole romance last year.... But generally, still happy with her, and sorry she's going...

As for Osgood... I was enjoying her, til they killed her... and now resurrected her - even if they at least had a half descent methodology this time.

P-90_177
November 15th, 2015, 02:15 AM
Oh, plenty of people are sick of Clara... and occasionally I get a bit..... meh about her. Especially the whole romance last year.... But generally, still happy with her, and sorry she's going...

As for Osgood... I was enjoying her, til they killed her... and now resurrected her - even if they at least had a half descent methodology this time.

It's kind of acceptable when you have a twin. :P

cosmichobo
November 15th, 2015, 05:40 PM
Yes, but I feel they should have then included the twin in Osgoods death story... Just a small reference somewhere...

maneth
November 24th, 2015, 08:10 AM
I'm unsure about this one. It certainly wasn't my favorite episode this season. My favorite part was the reference to 12 bullets.

To be fair I'm getting a bit sick of Clara, "the perfect girl". I wonder what the next companion is going to be like.

That said, I liked the romance last year, as it showed her getting over her crush on the 11th Doctor.