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GateWorld
September 29th, 2015, 10:54 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/before-the-flood/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/before-the-flood-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SEASON 35 (9)</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/before-the-flood/" STYLE="text-decoration: none;">BEFORE THE FLOOD</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3504 (904)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">The Doctor returns to the past where he must confront the alien warlord who is turning innocent victims into transmitters -- only to learn that the Doctor himself may have to die. In the future, Clara and the other survivors of the underwater outpost struggle to survive when it looks like there may be no way out.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s9/before-the-flood/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Teddybrown
October 10th, 2015, 01:10 PM
Definately need to rewatch this one, timey wimey...

Blencathra
October 10th, 2015, 01:48 PM
I'm going to have to watch it again as well to fully grasp the timey wimey bits too.

But my first impression is one of disappointment. I thought the episode last week was absolutely fantastic, but this one just wasn't of the same standard. I was a little bored in the middle of the episode to be honest.

Prentis the undertaker was vaguely irritating and not particularly funny. The Fisher King was a great monster but he was disposed of too easily. I'd already guessed it was the Doctor in the sarcophagus, so no surprises there. I thought Clara was really annoying, selfish and self-centred. As Cass commented, she is quite happy at the moment to risk other people's lives. I loved Cass & Lunn and thought it very sad that O'Donnell couldn't be saved.

P-90_177
October 10th, 2015, 03:03 PM
Lol. Once again I'm surprised by people saying they're surprised by the Timey Wimey when I understand it all perfectly. :P

Matt G
October 10th, 2015, 03:06 PM
1. Well that's one way round working out the identity of the village..make it a Cold War training village.

2. Interesting bootstrap paradox...those are strange things...

3. Clara's still trying to be the Doctor...and it didn't really work in this ep.

4. The genuine article pulled a pretty good stunt though.

Solid enough

Sealurk
October 10th, 2015, 03:47 PM
Great episode made even better by the Doctor's curiously fourth wall breaking intro and rock cover of the theme tune. I'll need to watch it again as well, but more for the lines and bits I missed than the timey-wimey... which I think I got. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Teddybrown
October 10th, 2015, 05:05 PM
What did people think of the theme tune? I liked it.

Ian-S
October 10th, 2015, 05:38 PM
It was OK, if a tad indulgent, like a few parts this season have been.

At least this episode actually made sense, even if some of it was only hinted at.

P-90_177
October 11th, 2015, 03:13 AM
What did people think of the theme tune? I liked it.

loved it. :P

Blencathra
October 11th, 2015, 04:05 AM
I liked the theme tune too. It was fun. :)

Talking of which... The clockwork squirrel made an appearance.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5708/22088785405_db7087ff9f_z.jpg

Coco Pops
October 11th, 2015, 06:09 AM
Great episode made even better by the Doctor's curiously fourth wall breaking intro and rock cover of the theme tune. I'll need to watch it again as well, but more for the lines and bits I missed than the timey-wimey... which I think I got. Thoroughly enjoyable.


Well I interpreted it as the Doctor talking to Clara and we see her POV..

Coco Pops
October 11th, 2015, 06:10 AM
I thought the teaser before the credits was really breaking the 4th wall. I have very mixed feelings about this episode. I just am not sure how I feel.

Did anyone pick up on the easter egg. The name on the amplifier was the Magpie as in the episode "The Idiot's Lantern."

20 minutes into last week's episode I tagged the Doctor as being the one inside the casket...

5/10

BTW the dam might flood the town but how can it stay flooded? Water recedes over time... doesn't it?

Sealurk
October 11th, 2015, 06:16 AM
I'm not sure why but I loved the fourth wall breaking intro with the Doctor talking - apparently - to us, the audience. I think he did this in Listen as well.

Great spot, Blen. Hadn't seen the clockwork squirrel - or the Magpie Electricals amp it's sitting on!

LOVED the rock intro - seem to remember reading/hearing that was actually Capaldi playing (he used to be a in a punk band). Somehow wouldn't surprise me, but even if it isn't it is still awesome and suits the sort of carefree, aging rocker persona that Twelve has developed. He really is the biggest Doctor Who fan of us all, isn't he?

I really liked O'Donnell, I adored her "It's bigger on the inside!" squeeing fit, and I am quite sad she didn't make it because I was seriously hoping she'd be the next companion - much like another Toby Whithouse character, Rita from The God Complex. That said, she didn't half grab the idiot ball and run with it when the Fisher King cuts the group off from the TARDIS. "Let's split up!" Seriously? Are horror movies just not a thing in the 22nd century?

Liking how arc-light this series seems to be so far, or at least how much more subtle the show is about any kind of running arc. The Minister of War reference intrigued me though.

"If you'd occupied us you'd be home by now."

The idea of Toby Whithouse eventually replacing Moffat is an increasingly attractive one based on his recent output and his characters (which I sometimes think are Moffat's weakness).

Clara is really bugging me now, her personality is not in any way endearing and her (latest) rant at the Doctor just made her sound bossy, selfish, childish, demanding, controlling and just simply egomaniacal. I am actually looking forward to the character leaving the show now.

The book Prentis is holding when the Fisher King kills him, Celestial Almanac - I'm now wondering if that's an easter egg, a portent of things to come or just a cool prop.

Twelve is certainly a lot darker and colder than most Doctors. Admittedly he did try to prevent O'Donnell's demise, but as Bennett said, not very hard. Clara's headed the same way but doesn't disguise it as well.

Peter Serafinowicz on typically fine and creepy form doing the voice of the Fisher King (why is he called that? Isn't that an Arthurian legend?). Slipknot's Corey Taylor only does his roar apparently.

The bait-and-switch with the suspended animation pod was reasonably predictable but clever.

How come the other ghosts treated the Doctor's holo-ghost as one of them?

Why didn't the Fisher King run to the hearse when the dam blew? If his survival instinct was that strong wouldn't it have been better to seal yourself in a water-tight vehicle than just stand and roar at an oncoming wall of water?

Overall a very strong and enjoyable episode. Particularly loved the use of the bootstrap paradox / causality loop, nice to see somebody other than Moffat doing timey-wimey (actually, as at least one article has said, Whithouse may have just out-Moffated Moffat). Definitely loving the focus on two-parters, and I definitely think that this is setting up a format change for the next year or perhaps more. A return to slightly more serial stories with little or no arc is, for me at least, very welcome.

Blencathra
October 11th, 2015, 08:58 AM
...

Clara is really bugging me now, her personality is not in any way endearing and her (latest) rant at the Doctor just made her sound bossy, selfish, childish, demanding, controlling and just simply egomaniacal. I am actually looking forward to the character leaving the show now.

...

I found this development in Clara to be very disturbing. She is quite willing to have Lunn risk his life, much to Cass' distress, but she isn't willing to risk her own. Later, Cass has to nearly force Clara to go out & look for him. All Clara seems to care about is herself and continuing her exciting adventures with the Doctor. After Clara lost Danny you would think that she would have some sympathy for Cass and her anxiety about Lunn but no, she insists that Lunn goes out of the Faraday cage to find the phone (which incidentally is never needed again). She then has the hypocrisy to comfort Bennett about losing O'Donnell.

I've been racking my brains trying to think of a companion who would behave in a similar selfish fashion and the only one who I could come up with is Vislor Turlough. I think every companion before this (apart from Turlough) would have gone out to find the phone themselves. I do think that Clara will end up paying for her selfish self-centred attitude.

Flyboy
October 11th, 2015, 12:34 PM
I'm going to have to watch it again as well to fully grasp the timey wimey bits too.

But my first impression is one of disappointment. I thought the episode last week was absolutely fantastic, but this one just wasn't of the same standard. I was a little bored in the middle of the episode to be honest.

Prentis the undertaker was vaguely irritating and not particularly funny. The Fisher King was a great monster but he was disposed of too easily. I'd already guessed it was the Doctor in the sarcophagus, so no surprises there. I thought Clara was really annoying, selfish and self-centred. As Cass commented, she is quite happy at the moment to risk other people's lives. I loved Cass & Lunn and thought it very sad that O'Donnell couldn't be saved.

Agreed on all counts.

Distinctly average conclusion to a great opening. I loved the classic feel of the first part, with the under water base, being cut off, and the military vs corporate tensions. This just seemed so underwhelming on all counts...

GodAtum
October 11th, 2015, 02:07 PM
No, havent got a clue what happened. How did the Fisher King come back from the dead? he was one of the most useless and underwhelming villans ever.

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
October 11th, 2015, 06:41 PM
I say he wasn't really dead, only in hibernation, he was turning people into beacons to call an invasion force to Earth, and the easiest way for him to get there with no resistance is for his funeral. No one would stop a funeral in case it's part of an invasion plan, right?

The Fisher King.. Is he The Fisher King of Arthurian Legend? Keeper of the Holy Grail with the power to resurrect the dead?

Some of it seems to fit :p

We might see him again. He was "killed" far too easily and that's a lot of design work for a one-off monster.

And he was voiced by Peter Serafinowicz.. And we definitely need more of him in Doctor Who.. and on TV in general :D

While it was a slightly disappointing episode.. I say the quality this year so far is still much higher than it has been for a long time.

Coco Pops
October 11th, 2015, 09:13 PM
What about those base doors? Are the round portals in the doors empty? Sometimes there was glass there and other times water poured through the round windows..

Coco Pops
October 11th, 2015, 09:15 PM
BTW Blen Oh Blen....

What's this big theory you had that Moffat has been sewing seeds for the Doctor since the first episode of series 5?

Blencathra
October 12th, 2015, 01:20 AM
Sorry I'm keeping my theory to myself for the time being. Firstly if I'm wrong then I'm going to look very silly, but more importantly if I'm right then I will have spoiled a big reveal & I don't want to do that.

I was just thinking about Clara again last night. Now my first initial irritation about her is over I have done a complete turn around and now I'm actually looking forward to seeing where this development in her character will go next.

In the past the Doctor has either picked a good person to travel with him, or when he has on occasion picked a bad person, that person has become good by travelling with the Doctor (thinking of Turlough again). With Clara we seem to be getting the reverse, and I think that makes an interesting change.

Clara started off as a sweet girl, but slightly bossy, who was quite willing to jump into the Doctor's timeline to save him. But now, since Danny's death, she has become this adrenaline junkie. All she wants is faster, more furious, more dangerous adventures. It seems to me that, despite what she says, the death of Danny has affected her more than she knows. She doesn't care about her family or her teaching any more. All she wants is that next adrenaline rush.

She is losing her humanity. She is becoming more and more like the Doctor and is picking up his bad traits. Donna told the 10th Doctor that he needed somebody to travel with him in order to stop him from going too far. But Clara is becoming like the Doctor. Very soon she won't be able to stop him, because she will be him.

Also she makes some quite terrifying statements, for instance "Don't you dare die with me." NOT "Don't you dare die". For her the Doctor can die later, but he must stay alive now because he "owes" her. No wonder the Doctor puts his head on the TARDIS console in despair. He's beginning to see that Clara has changed beyond all recognition and not for the better.

Previous Who companions have left because they either found somebody they preferred to the Doctor (Jo, Leela), or they got fed up (Tegan), or they left on their own terms (Liz, Romana, Nyssa, Martha), or they were forced to leave by external events (Jamie, Zoe, Sarah Jane, Rose, Donna, Amy) or they died (Adric, River) but is very rare indeed for the Doctor to leave somebody behind for their own good. The only one I can think of is Susan Foreman. But that wasn't quite the same, as the Doctor knew that Susan wanted firm roots and that she was in love with David Campbell.

This time I wonder if we will be working towards the Doctor actually forcing Clara out of the TARDIS and making her leave against her will. That would be an interesting and different way for a companion to go I think.

Edit - Or here's another idea. If Clara is so desperate to become the Doctor, then what about using the unused (on TV) story arc planned for Ace in the 1980s and send her to Gallifrey to train to be a Time Lord. Missy knows the location of Gallifrey, perhaps she could be prevailed upon to get Clara there. Then perhaps the Clara seen on Gallifrey in The Name of the Doctor isn't just a splinter of Clara, she actually is Clara.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3950/15565490805_c5359b0e25.jpg

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
October 12th, 2015, 03:17 PM
So.. random thought :p

Beethoven's 5th Symphony was used in the example of the bootstrap paradox... And reading a bit about it I found that Beethoven’s secretary described the opening bars as ‘fate knocking at the door’

Knocking.. The opening bars.. "Duh Duh Duh Duh" Four of them.. Knocking.. Four times.. :eek:

Coco Pops
October 12th, 2015, 06:45 PM
Sorry I'm keeping my theory to myself for the time being. Firstly if I'm wrong then I'm going to look very silly, but more importantly if I'm right then I will have spoiled a big reveal & I don't want to do that.

I was just thinking about Clara again last night. Now my first initial irritation about her is over I have done a complete turn around and now I'm actually looking forward to seeing where this development in her character will go next.

In the past the Doctor has either picked a good person to travel with him, or when he has on occasion picked a bad person, that person has become good by travelling with the Doctor (thinking of Turlough again). With Clara we seem to be getting the reverse, and I think that makes an interesting change.

Clara started off as a sweet girl, but slightly bossy, who was quite willing to jump into the Doctor's timeline to save him. But now, since Danny's death, she has become this adrenaline junkie. All she wants is faster, more furious, more dangerous adventures. It seems to me that, despite what she says, the death of Danny has affected her more than she knows. She doesn't care about her family or her teaching any more. All she wants is that next adrenaline rush.

She is losing her humanity. She is becoming more and more like the Doctor and is picking up his bad traits. Donna told the 10th Doctor that he needed somebody to travel with him in order to stop him from going too far. But Clara is becoming like the Doctor. Very soon she won't be able to stop him, because she will be him.

Also she makes some quite terrifying statements, for instance "Don't you dare die with me." NOT "Don't you dare die". For her the Doctor can die later, but he must stay alive now because he "owes" her. No wonder the Doctor puts his head on the TARDIS console in despair. He's beginning to see that Clara has changed beyond all recognition and not for the better.

Previous Who companions have left because they either found somebody they preferred to the Doctor (Jo, Leela), or they got fed up (Tegan), or they left on their own terms (Liz, Romana, Nyssa, Martha), or they were forced to leave by external events (Jamie, Zoe, Sarah Jane, Rose, Donna, Amy) or they died (Adric, River) but is very rare indeed for the Doctor to leave somebody behind for their own good. The only one I can think of is Susan Foreman. But that wasn't quite the same, as the Doctor knew that Susan wanted firm roots and that she was in love with David Campbell.

This time I wonder if we will be working towards the Doctor actually forcing Clara out of the TARDIS and making her leave against her will. That would be an interesting and different way for a companion to go I think.

Edit - Or here's another idea. If Clara is so desperate to become the Doctor, then what about using the unused (on TV) story arc planned for Ace in the 1980s and send her to Gallifrey to train to be a Time Lord. Missy knows the location of Gallifrey, perhaps she could be prevailed upon to get Clara there. Then perhaps the Clara seen on Gallifrey in The Name of the Doctor isn't just a splinter of Clara, she actually is Clara.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3950/15565490805_c5359b0e25.jpg


She looks like she's dressed as a Galifreyan there too.

P-90_177
October 13th, 2015, 02:19 AM
She looks like she's dressed as a Galifreyan there too.

Yeah she was, that was from The Name of the Doctor when one of her splintered selves was on Galifrey. Remember when she told the first Doctor which TARDIS to take.

Coco Pops
October 13th, 2015, 09:11 PM
Yeah she was, that was from The Name of the Doctor when one of her splintered selves was on Galifrey. Remember when she told the first Doctor which TARDIS to take.



I do indeed remember that. Maybe it was Timelord Clara..

Coco Pops
October 13th, 2015, 09:15 PM
So why does every single alien hate the Timelords? Well maybe not hate but strongly dislike if you want?

The Fisher King figures out the Doctor is one and then goes on some kind of rant.. Why is this a recurring thing?

P-90_177
October 14th, 2015, 02:22 AM
So why does every single alien hate the Timelords? Well maybe not hate but strongly dislike if you want?

The Fisher King figures out the Doctor is one and then goes on some kind of rant.. Why is this a recurring thing?

Because they either routinely lorded it over other race OR tried to wipe out the universe in a senseless war... Basically why the rest of world gets ticked off at America.

Coco Pops
October 14th, 2015, 06:13 AM
Because they either routinely lorded it over other race OR tried to wipe out the universe in a senseless war... Basically why the rest of world gets ticked off at America.


Ah so Galifrey is the USA of the universe..

tomstone
October 15th, 2015, 04:13 PM
Ah so Galifrey is the USA of the universe..

Wow, never thought about it like that, but that is so true.

I got to say I am not a Fan of the new dynamic. I get that its a new take that has not been done, but the new Doctor is scary and Clara not balancing him out makes it even worse.

Flyboy
October 16th, 2015, 07:50 AM
Ah so Galifrey is the USA of the universe..

Not really.... given that apart from a brief period in between the World Wars, the USA hasn't really had a policy of non-interference like Gallifrey. It's more a case of.... OH! You have oil!

P-90_177
October 16th, 2015, 02:15 PM
Not really.... given that apart from a brief period in between the World Wars, the USA hasn't really had a policy of non-interference like Gallifrey. It's more a case of.... OH! You have oil!

Don't be confusing the boys and girls FB, my analogy was fine. :P

Flyboy
October 16th, 2015, 02:19 PM
Don't be confusing the boys and girls FB, my analogy was fine. :P

I am not comparing GALLIFREY, shining light of the seven systems, to the USA. Sorry. No. :P

Your analogy of overlording or wiping out makes far more sense for the British Empire, but even then I wouldn't draw a direct comparison.

P-90_177
October 16th, 2015, 02:43 PM
I am not comparing GALLIFREY, shining light of the seven systems, to the USA. Sorry. No. :P

Your analogy of overlording or wiping out makes far more sense for the British Empire, but even then I wouldn't draw a direct comparison.

It wasn't a direct comparison, I said the rest of the universe considers them with the same attitude. Deal with it. :P

maneth
October 21st, 2015, 08:14 PM
Cool episode. It would IMO have been better not to show the Fisher King in broad daylight. He was much more scary in the shade...

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
October 22nd, 2015, 04:33 AM
Not really.... given that apart from a brief period in between the World Wars, the USA hasn't really had a policy of non-interference like Gallifrey. It's more a case of.... OH! You have oil!

So the Timelords are like the Chozo from the Metroid universe? :p