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KorbenDirewolf
May 21st, 2004, 04:49 AM
This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. Why to the Tauri insist on contining relations with the Tok'ra? They seem to be more trouble than they are worth. The Tok'ra (as a group) don't seem to do very much to further their end of the alliance, even when they were operating at normal capacity. If the Tauri are expected to share all information relating to the Goa'uld, why shouldn't the Tok'ra do the same? Several times they have given up information only when it became unavoidable. For example, they suspected the existance of the zatarc mind control technology, yet did not inform the SGC so they could not take steps against it.

The picture I've seen of the Tok'ra is that they are a bunch of lesser Goa'uld without all of the bad habits. An yet they go on and on about NEVER taking an unwilling host, yet Jolinar did it at least once, possibly twice (the Naysian and Carter). Spoiler in white- Season 5 Summit/Last StandLantash took Elliot as an unwilling host. At the least the Tok'ra seem to hold themselves as being somehow "above" mere unblended humans. Do the Tauri really need to continue this alliance?

Whitster
May 21st, 2004, 04:54 AM
Well there is now alliance now is there.

veneticuss
May 21st, 2004, 05:12 AM
Well no there is not, but an aliance was worth anyway.
The Tokra did also a lot to SGC,
e.g.: curing Jack, a lot of infos, helping to solve some problems (the naquadah meteorit...) etc.

KokiriChild
May 21st, 2004, 05:18 AM
Yeah, I think they're ok to have as an ally, better some information and help than no information and help - look at when they tried to retrofit a death glider - Jacob/Selmak had to come and help, he did it without even thinking twice.

KorbenDirewolf
May 21st, 2004, 05:33 AM
Maybe so. but still: Jolinar took Carter as an unwilling host, something the Tok'ra never do. In "The Tok'ra (Part 1)" the Tok'ra say there is nothing the Tauri can offer them except hosts. In "Jolinar's Memories" Lantash withholds details of the mission until they absolutely cannot proceed without them. In "The Devil You Know" Aldwin decides SG-1 is expendable and nearly kills them. In "Upgrades" Anise uses O'Neill, Jackson and Carter as labrats, and even sends them on a mission, knowing the experiment could go wrong at any time. After Shau'nac gives her snake to the Tok'ra, Anise refuses to allow the Tauri to ask him for information. It seems to me that they've gotten the most out of this bargin. Even O'Neill's cure didn't go as planned.

[i]Spoiler - Abyss
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Kanan took Jack into Ba'al's secret base on a mission he knew nothing about

veneticuss
May 21st, 2004, 05:45 AM
Well thats the Tokra mentality. You just need to understand them better, understand their position. Anyway their would be no SGC now without The Tokra helping SGC to get rid of The Reetou and many more problems.

KokiriChild
May 21st, 2004, 05:57 AM
Yeah, a little ally is better than no ally

*feeling Deja Vouxiersz... damn French spelling*

Teal'c
May 21st, 2004, 05:59 AM
Yes, but how many times have we done things after receiving Tok'ra intel?

veneticuss
May 21st, 2004, 06:04 AM
A lot of times!

KorbenDirewolf
May 23rd, 2004, 11:31 AM
Yes, but how many times have we done things after receiving Tok'ra intel?

And how many of those would have been unnecessary had the Tok'ra not interfered?

shelsfc
May 23rd, 2004, 01:00 PM
Well, they're better to have as an ally than as an enemy. Anyway, since the SGC & the Tok'ra are both working for the same thing, it makes sense for them to work together.

KorbenDirewolf
May 23rd, 2004, 02:23 PM
It would if they would ever, well... Actually work together. The majority of the Tok'ra seem to think the Tauri are just a bothersome, but somewhat helpful, group of humans. Won't go into detail here, but I'm thinking of "Death Knell" in particular as an example of this.

shelsfc
May 23rd, 2004, 02:36 PM
True, but then think of eps like Jolinars Memories/The Devil You Know. It's unlikely Martouf would have been able to rescue Jacob without SG1. I know it's only a minor example, but still...

KorbenDirewolf
May 23rd, 2004, 02:41 PM
Maybe so. But in those episodes Martouf was very secretive about the plan in general. As well Aldwin (supported by the High Council) deciding Carter, O'Neil, Teal'c, Selmak and Lantash weren't worth saving at all.

Could just be that I have an unrational dislike for the Tok'ra. :)

dorien
May 23rd, 2004, 02:58 PM
Why to the Tauri insist on contining relations with the Tok'ra? They seem to be more trouble than they are worth. The Tok'ra (as a group) don't seem to do very much to further their end of the alliance, even when they were operating at normal capacity. If the Tauri are expected to share all information relating to the Goa'uld, why shouldn't the Tok'ra do the same? Several times they have given up information only when it became unavoidable.
You've just described the alliance that the U.S. has with Russia concerning matters of the stargate. In any alliance, each party will put its own best interests above that of a common goal.

While the tok'ra and taur'i share a common enemy, they have opposing methods on how to defeat that enemy. The tok'ra infiltrate and sabotage. The taur'i go with a frontal assualt. Of course there will be conflict. But working together is better than seperate efforts that may undermine what the other is doing.

shelsfc
May 24th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Could just be that I have an unrational dislike for the Tok'ra. :)Hey, it's not unrational, they're not exactly the nicest folk! To be fair, I have to admit that Jacob & Martouf are the only Tok'ra I actually like... :rolleyes:

KokiriChild
May 24th, 2004, 02:42 PM
Hey, it's not unrational, they're not exactly the nicest folk! To be fair, I have to admit that Jacob & Martouf are the only Tok'ra I actually like... :rolleyes:
Yeah, the rest of them all have their heads up their own symbiotes

Rookie
May 24th, 2004, 03:53 PM
The way Jacob/Lantash was treated by the Council was typical of them trying to hold onto their old ways of survival. The problem is that that Tau'ri have done more to hurt the Gua'uld in a few years than the Tok'ra have done in a few thousand probably, and they seem scared of the change that's happening and also jealous of the Tau'ri and their success.

Now isn't the time to run and hide like they've done for so long; now is the time to take advantage of the dwindling number of System Lords and strike hard, but many are so afraid - they don't want to deal with the costs involved. The council thinks allying with Earth is a fatal mistake, but it's better than pi$$ing yourself while hiding in some underground tunnel.

Fear and pride are the biggest faults of the Tok'ra, how not unlike a Gua'uld. :rolleyes:

veneticuss
May 24th, 2004, 11:37 PM
I dont think they are jealous though

KokiriChild
May 25th, 2004, 01:05 AM
Looking at it from that angle, I'd say they were, but I can kinda see their point about not wanting to lose Tok'ra, they have now way of getting new symbiotes.

Mio
May 25th, 2004, 02:28 AM
If we figure out how to make the uber-glowy jellyfish weapon work again, I can see the Tok'ra crawling on their bellies to us.....

veneticuss
May 25th, 2004, 02:40 AM
the problem is that Earth has no more ZPMs to power it up.

crimsontide101
August 2nd, 2004, 12:32 PM
what about clone symbiotes

aschen
August 2nd, 2004, 12:52 PM
You wanna clone symbiotes? Dont' we have enough of those little snakes as it is?

StarsAlign
September 11th, 2004, 09:58 AM
Could just be that I have an unrational dislike for the Tok'ra.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Ancient 1
September 14th, 2004, 02:52 AM
Yeah, the rest of them all have their heads up their own symbiotes
Actually, I think it was the symbiote that entered through the wrong orafice!

aschen
September 14th, 2004, 04:47 AM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=2263&highlight=screw+tok%27ra

Go bash them there. It's more fun. ;) ;)

TheTroj
September 14th, 2004, 05:40 AM
cloning a symbiote could be the answer for the jaffa couldnt it?

aschen
September 14th, 2004, 09:00 AM
There miht be similar problems to what the Pangarans had.

Starfury
September 14th, 2004, 09:29 AM
Season 6 episode "The Cure"
I still think the Tok'ra swiped a sarcophagus, revived Egeria in secret and are keeping her hidden to protect her. Eventually they'll offer an alliance with the Jaffa in exchange for carrying Tok'ra primtahs. I may not have any evidence, but I just liked Egeria, OK? I wanted her to live. I think she woulda whipped her kids into shape in no time.

Lord Zedd
September 14th, 2004, 11:46 AM
SPOILER Edited to say: for Season 7.




Does anybody know if the Tok'ra and the Tauri still have an alliance since the episode in season 7 about the supersoldiers.They said they can't no longer affort such an alliance?Does the SGC know where the Tok'ra live know?

aschen
September 14th, 2004, 12:08 PM
SPOILER




Does anybody know if the Tok'ra and the Tauri still have an alliance since the episode in season 7 about the supersoldiers.They said they can't no longer affort such an alliance?Does the SGC know where the Tok'ra live know?
Es ist kaput! Es ist tot!

Ancient 1
September 14th, 2004, 02:52 PM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=2263&highlight=screw+tok%27ra

Go bash them there. It's more fun. ;) ;)
I was just being funny because it's much easier for the symbiote to go in the wrong direction, as far as who has their head where, [butt] I will go over to visit the link provided. Thanks Aschen.

Beatrice Otter
September 14th, 2004, 10:31 PM
And how many of those would have been unnecessary had the Tok'ra not interfered?

And how many of those times would something _really_ bad have happened if we hadn't done what they asked?

Look, the Tok'ra aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Sometimes I don't much like them. But I think that's far more realistic than if they were the perfect ally. In real life, every government/organization has its own goals and agenda, and even when two groups share the same goals, they can be very different in their outlook and tactics (as here). All work, ultimately, for what they perceive as their own best interest. I think Bismark overstated the case when he said "Nation-states do not have friends, only interests," but he had a point. Ultimately, I think the alliance is worth it for both sides, but only if both sides remember that the other is different, and has a different set of priorities, and respects that, and doesn't just blindly follow where the other leads. I think the main problem with the alliance as it stands is that the Tok'ra are too aware of this, and the Tau'ri aren't aware of it enough. Let me explain.

The Tok'ra are so aware of the differences that they refuse to see the similarities, and so try to withhold intelligence and resources out of fear of betrayal, and try to manipulate the SGC into doing what they think is necessary by manipulating the information given. Upgrades is a perfect case in point. If they'd just given the SGC the info on Apophis' new-and-improved mothership at the outset, I have no doubt that the SGC would have found some way to handle the situation (even if they had to blow up the star :) ); it's what they do for a living, and they are supremely good at it, which the Tok'ra should have known by that point. Anise would probably even have gotten to do her tests on the armbands. And the Tau'ri would not have been left with that sour taste in their mouth over the whole incident.

The Tau'ri, on the other hand, consistently expect the Tok'ra to do whatever they ask them to, even if it compromises their intelligence network, which is the only thing of true value the Tok'ra posess (S6 Abyss as case in point--the SGC sent Tok'ra inteligence to Yu). The Tau'ri seem to think that anything in their best interest is automatically in the Tok'ra's best interest. They do this consistently, without any consideration of the fact that this is not always the case. When the Tok'ra don't cooperate, the Tau'ri get pissy without ever attempting to consider things from the Tok'ra point of view, or even admitting that their concerns might be different and yet still be valid.

Neither attitude is conducive to maintaing any kind of cordial relations, and unless and until both sides get a more realistic view of the relationship, I think it will continue to deteriorate, unfortunately. :(

Ancient 1
September 14th, 2004, 11:16 PM
Good points all. If both sides could get together to hear your rasoning, perhaps the alliance need not deteriorate, as you suggest it will. But to once again quote President Hayes: "Never going to Happen."

Starfury
September 15th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Wow, Beatrice, that is the most rational, well-thought-out analasys of the Tok'ra-Tauri alliance I've read. Thank you.

Edited to add:
Somebody over in the "Screw the Tok'ra" thread said the Tok'ra should just breed their own Harcesis. Which got me thinking: could they or would they breed hosts? OK, I know that breeding a Harcesis is forbidden, presumably if it's bad enough for the Goa'uld to be appalled by it, the Tok'ra wouldn't touch it either. But what about Tok'ra and non-blended folks (maybe pre-blended, since some people seem to wait around with the Tok'ra till a host is needed, like what's his face that Tanith posessed)?

Basically it got me thinking about the Tok'ra society. They don't all seem to be fighting Goa'uld all the time and they must associate with some non-blended people besides the Jaffa and Tau'ri. Do they all, always live underground or do some live, in or out of disguise, aboveground part of the time? Do some Tok'ra lead "normal" lives? We know they make love, and not always to other Tok'ra (in "Abyss" Kanan and Ba'al's slave girl were lovers). Do they have families?

We know that for a host to conceive and carry a child, the symbiote must "sleep," so a Harcesis couldn't happen by accident, but is it possible for a blended male to impregnate a non-blended female unintentionally? What, if any, effect would that have on the resulting offspring?

It kind of makes me sad to think that if Martouf/Lantash and Jolinar/Whatsername had been able to have a child, Martouf would have had some small piece of her left after she died. How sad to share so much of your life with someone but without ever being able to share parenthood (note: I don't think you can't have a happy, loving and fulfilling relationship without children. I just think that it adds so much that it's sad when it's not possible).

RubyRed
February 28th, 2005, 09:42 PM
I just saw Tok'ra 1 today for the first time and they do look like they got a lot less resources than the Tauri. i mean they think that they are all that and we might be too weak and spill the beans on them but it seems to me that they need us more than we need them. i know their info is important but for what they are willing to give is barely worth it.

yasureubetcha
February 28th, 2005, 10:06 PM
For example, they suspected the existance of the zatarc mind control technology, yet did not inform the SGC so they could not take steps against it

ANISE suspected it. Neither she nor it was given much credibility. I mean, I doubt that Earth informed the Tok'ra everytime someone on Earth came up with a crackpot theory--for instance, Felger's superweapon. Earth almost took down the entire network, and had the Tok'ra calling after the fact, asking "What the HECK?"

Plus they supplied most of our non-gate transportation, until we got Prometheus, at which point the Asgard became the ones to pull us out of our sorry messes.

Jack would be dead on that world with Maybourne, for instance, if it wasn't for a Tok'ra ship. Sam's ability to use Goa'uld weapons, her immunity to certain things, and the memories left from Jolinar have saved the day. And as much as Kanan screwed Jack over, I hope we get to see him using a ribbon device before he leaves...

aussie_gal
February 28th, 2005, 11:14 PM
This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. Why to the Tauri insist on contining relations with the Tok'ra? They seem to be more trouble than they are worth. The Tok'ra (as a group) don't seem to do very much to further their end of the alliance, even when they were operating at normal capacity. If the Tauri are expected to share all information relating to the Goa'uld, why shouldn't the Tok'ra do the same? Several times they have given up information only when it became unavoidable. For example, they suspected the existance of the zatarc mind control technology, yet did not inform the SGC so they could not take steps against it.

The picture I've seen of the Tok'ra is that they are a bunch of lesser Goa'uld without all of the bad habits. An yet they go on and on about NEVER taking an unwilling host, yet Jolinar did it at least once, possibly twice (the Naysian and Carter). Spoiler in white- Season 5 Summit/Last StandLantash took Elliot as an unwilling host. At the least the Tok'ra seem to hold themselves as being somehow "above" mere unblended humans. Do the Tauri really need to continue this alliance?


Yeah i get your point. i quess that the tauri want to have alllies or want the tokra to help with technology.

Spoiler in white- Season 5 Summit/Last StandLantash took Elliot as an unwilling host.
with that it depends on how you look at it . they were both dying

Rosha
March 1st, 2005, 01:48 AM
[/QUOTE] It kind of makes me sad to think that if Martouf/Lantash and Jolinar/Whatsername had been able to have a child, Martouf would have had some small piece of her left after she died. How sad to share so much of your life with someone but without ever being able to share parenthood (note: I don't think you can't have a happy, loving and fulfilling relationship without children. I just think that it adds so much that it's sad when it's not possible).[/QUOTE]


Whatername's name was Rosha and I agree that its sad that they could not
have children. To be Tok'ra hosts they would have gained a lot (knowledge, constant companionship, longer life in theory, each other etc) but they would have also sacrificed a lot as well (children, security, stable homelife etc)

Rosha
March 1st, 2005, 02:20 AM
Looking at it from that angle, I'd say they were, but I can kinda see their point about not wanting to lose Tok'ra, they have now way of getting new symbiotes.

Yeah just think. What if the roles were reversed and the human race was the dying race and the Tok'ra was populated in the billions. Do you as a human being think you would risk speeding up the extinction of your family, friends, lovers and race just so another younger and cocky race can be happy?

Okay the Tok'ra may not be the perfect allies but remember neither are the Tauri. In fact I said this once I will say it again, if I was Garshaw I would have never agreed to the alliance with Tauri especially with someone like Jack insulting my race just about every time he opened his mouth at first contact.

Cade
March 5th, 2005, 08:28 AM
ok firstly it frightens me that many of u have refered to 'us' and 'we'

secondly and on topic.

the Tok'Ra are fighting by infiltrating and sabotage.
the Tauri fight by storming in and shooting up the place, now thats gonna kill some infiltrators.
but also the Tauri got the protection of the Asgard, whereas the Tok'Ra were fighting on their own no support, no help.

that tends to make people edgy and suspicous.
and Jolinar took Sam as host because she(Jolinar) was trying to make sure her knowledge wasnt gone, also every species has one basic instinct incommon with every other to survive.

the Tok'Ra havent been completely helpful. but they havent killed any Tauri, whereas the Tauri have killed several operatives, i thinkn the Tok'Ra are awfully forgiving. id be Pissed.

Matt G
March 5th, 2005, 09:12 AM
I don't use 'us' and 'we' to refer to the SGC myself but I do understand why some people do so.


The SGC are hypothetically supposed to be representing us aka humans of the late 20th and early 21st century.

Sports teams represent their fans(in theory they represent a town or country but in practise that isn't always the case). Most sports fans often refer to their team as 'we' signifying that in spirit, they're right there with the players.

Cade
March 5th, 2005, 09:34 AM
yes but sports teams = real

SGC = fake.

its just kinda creepy, but ive only recently joined gateworld(today/yesterday) so maybe i just need to get used to it...

Beatrice Otter
March 6th, 2005, 09:12 PM
yes but sports teams = real

SGC = fake.

its just kinda creepy, but ive only recently joined gateworld(today/yesterday) so maybe i just need to get used to it...
It's a fairly standard way of referring to the SGC, when you're comparing it to other groups. The reason is that the characters of the SGC are the characters that we-the-viewers are supposed to identify with.

Pagan Twylight
March 14th, 2005, 02:02 AM
Yeah just think. What if the roles were reversed and the human race was the dying race and the Tok'ra was populated in the billions. Do you as a human being think you would risk speeding up the extinction of your family, friends, lovers and race just so another younger and cocky race can be happy?

Okay the Tok'ra may not be the perfect allies but remember neither are the Tauri. In fact I said this once I will say it again, if I was Garshaw I would have never agreed to the alliance with Tauri especially with someone like Jack insulting my race just about every time he opened his mouth at first contact.
Yes! Finally someone that sees the point. Jack O'Neill was the major stumbling block to the acceptance of the Tok'Ra and we can put the blame on TPTB. They deliberately took what could have been a wonderful group with great story lines and screwed them around. Personally, I'd rather watch the Tok'Ra than O'Neill any day of the week. O'Neill's attitude has alienated me when it came to so many races, Most of all the Tok'Ra, that I began to see his sarcasm as him being a smart-mouthed jerk. Even when the Tok'Ra healed him it was as if he thought they owed him and it was all their fault he ended up with Baal...excuse me, but if he had truly blended instead of expecting cured and then get the Netu out of my head, he might have been able to help the Tok'Ra get the girl ...and he calls them snakes when anyone that bothers to really look can tell they are small dragons, not snakes. I've never seen a snake that looked like that, but plenty of dragon pictures do. So thank TPTB and the writers for ruining the Tok'Ra storyline and thank the fanfiction writers for keeping them alive, well, and being much more appealing. (Yes, I do write Tok'ra fiction)

Sorry for the rant but I am really upset over Jacob, Martouf, Alwin, all the good characters that have been killed (NOT just Tok'Ra) for 'dramatic affect and reality'. If I want that...I'll watch the news.

I feel better, now. Thanks.

Magnus
March 14th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Sometimes they are more trouble then they are worth. However they have been very important in many cases. The guns for killing retu or any invisible enemy. Most recently, the weapon against the kull warriors. Other than that, they are more trouble than they are worth, causing more problems than solutions.

Jolinar of the Tok'ra
March 3rd, 2006, 10:37 AM
I seem to have missed a couple of shows, but what did happen to the Tok'ra? They just seemed to disappear after Jacob died. For that matter, why did Jacob die?

little_angel
April 21st, 2006, 02:28 AM
As a dying, and much hunted, race the suspicions and attitudes of several of the Tok'ra is understandable even if it were often misplaced.
O'Neills sarcastic and not very tactful encounters with Tok'ra members is also understandable - the Goa'uld are not above trickery. O'Neill merely voices the suspicions I am sure most other SGC personnel were thinking and whilst this may not be initally helpful, he at least has the honesty to voice his opinions.
Although I personally do not like many of the Tok'ra (especially Anise/Freya) an alliance with the Tok'ra is a far more beneficial than not allying with them. Any amount of technological or intellectual information they can share - along with manpower - is preferable than none.
Fighting against a common enemy implies fighting on the same side;for greater and quicker success, co-operation seems the best option.

Pagan Twylight
August 10th, 2006, 05:46 PM
I seem to have missed a couple of shows, but what did happen to the Tok'ra? They just seemed to disappear after Jacob died. For that matter, why did Jacob die?


The Jacob died so there could be a "Jack/Sam" shipper moment. Blech. As for the Tok'Ra themselves. It was obvious that the writers had no clue about them. Jonathan Glassner came up with them, and he left the show after season three. And at that point the Tok'Ra changed from what we saw in the beginning into what we ended up with. The writers had no clue at all in how to use them to advantage, and in their oh, so, ignorant hands the Earth lost an ally that could have been truly intrigueing and interesting. Not to mention that it had some of the hotest looking guys they've had on the show... Now what do the women get? Nada in the eyecandy line. And the only ally we have is little and grey. I love the Asgard, but the Tok'Ra were much more interesting in a human way. It was a great loss to the show when they stopped using them. And it lost them even more fans. There are those of us out here that really liked the Tok'ra and would have loved seeing them used to their potential. Of course, the writers would have continued to screw them up so it is just as well they are staying away from them.

Pagan

Apophis87
August 10th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Well, you have to keep in mind that the Tok'ra have been fighting the Goa'uld the same way for thousands of years. They've always had to be really secretive, and they are quite different from humans. If it looks like an operative is going to die, they are more willing to accept the loss than risk more people trying to save him, which is different from humans and has caused problems at times. Plus, they are a very proud race, and don't like the fact that all of a sudden we appear and we want to call all the shots. So I can't really blame them for some of the things they've done.

As for whether or not we need them, yes, we definitely needed them early on. They were a crucial ally that we could go to for intel, technology, and even to save our asses from time to time. Now, though, we have the Asguard, so we don't need the Tok'ra as much.

Metonic
August 10th, 2006, 09:45 PM
tokra were a waste

Pagan Twylight
August 11th, 2006, 12:06 AM
tokra were a waste


That's a matter of opinion and in mine they were very under-used. I loved them, wish they would have used them much more, and that they had changed Jack's attitude, which to me, was horrible. I hated it ,and, in fact, the character of Jack lost much of his appeal for me over his treatment of them. Between his sarcastic and demeaning attitude to them and to Sam, as well as the J/S ship, I've turned the episodes off more in the last three years than I would ever have thought I would. The writers have made Jack nothing but a Joke. But then they've also turned Carter into an idiot, adolescent, so what can you expect? Not much. I'm glad to say that this season, so far, has been much better than the two years before. I was very disappointed that Jack was coming back, but if they change his attitude and actions, I might be able to tolerate him now.

The Tok'Ra could have been a wonderful, interesting culture and race if the writers had ever figured out how to write for them. It was obvious that they didn't have a clue after Glassner left, and it ruined what could have been a very large draw of fans. The Tok'Ra, if handled correctly, could have been much like Spock from Star Trek. They would have appealed to women, and I would imagine the same holds true for the female Tok'Ra appealing to men.

Pagan