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GateWorld
February 6th, 2014, 09:31 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/the-walking-dead/s4/the-grove/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-grove-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">THE WALKING DEAD - SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/the-walking-dead/s4/the-grove/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE GROVE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 414</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Carol and Tyreese consider staying put after discovering a home hidden in a peaceful grove -- but young Lizzie and Mika's inability to deal with the reality of the new world grows increasingly obvious, culminating in a shocking act.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/the-walking-dead/s4/the-grove/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Baron Of Hell
March 16th, 2014, 11:45 PM
I think they left the baby behind at the end because it was crying to much.

We didn't see the bullet hit Lizzy so she is probably still alive and will return like the governor. She probably come back with a stealth bomber to kill everybody. I know she was buried but batman can get out of a grave and Lizzy is basically batman but not as crazy.

The fire was the one that Beth and Daryl started. The fire will probably spread out of control and burn everyone for the sins they committed. Basically making hell on earth. Fire will rain from the sky. The Seas will boil. Cats and dogs will live with each other.

Ty and Carol will probably get it on and make a couple of kids to replace the two that died. Be kind of funny if Ty called her Karen during the deed.

The beginning scene was like watching fallout. They should have had the vault dweller show up to save the day.

rkgardner2003
March 17th, 2014, 03:32 AM
I found this episode very disturbing, as it was supposed to be. I loved the creepiness of the opening scene through the window. I'm sure we all expected something like this too happen, but it was still hard to watch. I thought that Carol was going to confess earlier and I think if she had, it would of ended badly for her. I'm sure Tyrese seeing how hard it was for her to "deal" with Lizzy at the end, let him see how she was trying to protect everyone when it came to Karen. I'm assuming that fire to be the one Daryl/Beth started. They didn't leave the baby, she's in a backpack carrier!

fems
March 17th, 2014, 04:18 AM
I found this episode very disturbing, as it was supposed to be. I loved the creepiness of the opening scene through the window. I'm sure we all expected something like this too happen, but it was still hard to watch. I thought that Carol was going to confess earlier and I think if she had, it would of ended badly for her. I'm sure Tyrese seeing how hard it was for her to "deal" with Lizzy at the end, let him see how she was trying to protect everyone when it came to Karen. I'm assuming that fire to be the one Daryl/Beth started. They didn't leave the baby, she's in a backpack carrier!

Are you sure? There wasn't any sign of the baby in any of their bags/packs, but there were little baby shoes hanging on a cross on one of the graves. Plus, I thought the body with the sheet over it to the left (when Carol was digging) was way too small for either girl and wondered if it was Judith...

rkgardner2003
March 17th, 2014, 02:46 PM
Are you sure? There wasn't any sign of the baby in any of their bags/packs, but there were little baby shoes hanging on a cross on one of the graves. Plus, I thought the body with the sheet over it to the left (when Carol was digging) was way too small for either girl and wondered if it was Judith...

I think the grave with the baby shoes was already there. I'm pretty sure Tyrese had her on his back on the way out, she just looks to be covered in a blanket. Carol and Tyrese got back in time before anything happened to the baby, just in time...

VampyreWraith
March 17th, 2014, 04:01 PM
^ Yes, Tyreese was carrying supposed to be carrying her in the backpack carrier thing with the blanket over it(I noticed because my mom thought they'd left the baby too); and I think that was the grave that was already there, the girls even mentioned it while they were sitting outside in one of the scenes.

It was a very sad episode, but I also thought that it was a good episode. The only thing I really didn't like was how Tyreese and Carol kept leaving the kids by themselves even though they knew Lizzie had issues. There were two of them there, one of them could have stayed with the kids and the other could have gone to do whatever(and if they needed help they could have taken one of the kids). True they might not have known just how out of touch with reality Lizzie was, or that she was killing animals; but they saw her playing tag with a Walker, and just because she finally shot one(because you have to be mean sometimes), didn't mean that she was ok. Obviously they were left alone for plot purposes(though there were other ways that Lizzie could've still killed her sister that didn't make Tyreese and Carol look so incompetent and irresponsible), but it didn't really make that much sense to leave them all there like that. Even if they'd never imagined that she could kill anyone, someone should've been keeping an eye on her to make sure she didn't go off to look for more Walkers to play with. It would have been more understandable if Lizzie hadn't seemed so out of touch with things around Carol and Tyreese during the episode.

I felt bad for Lizzie(and everyone else), because she really didn't understand that she'd done anything wrong (and she didn't kill her sister out of malice). She was just a very sick(mentally ill) little girl. That whole scene where Carol shot her was pretty heartbreaking to watch, but it was the best thing they could have done given their situation(none of them had any experience dealing with severe mental illness, and they would have always had to be on guard just in case she tried to turn them into walkers while they were sleeping or whatever).

mr_kennedy
March 17th, 2014, 07:44 PM
As stated on another board, i find it ironic that a few episodes ago Rick made a big deal about Carol being around Judith now Post prison she is her guardian atleast until the group reunites. Another bit irony here is that i guess Rick was probably concerned about what Tyreese would do to Carol when he found out which is probably why he exiled Carol from the prison, and now there both walking to Terminus together

At first i thought Psycho Lizzy killed Judith aswell as her sister, i had to look twice until she said i was about to do Judith

This season i've grown to really like Carol as a character, they will probably kill her off next season lol

rkgardner2003
March 18th, 2014, 03:56 AM
As stated on another board, i find it ironic that a few episodes ago Rick made a big deal about Carol being around Judith now Post prison she is her guardian atleast until the group reunites. Another bit irony here is that i guess Rick was probably concerned about what Tyreese would do to Carol when he found out which is probably why he exiled Carol from the prison, and now there both walking to Terminus together

At first i thought Psycho Lizzy killed Judith aswell as her sister, i had to look twice until she said i was about to do Judith

This season i've grown to really like Carol as a character, they will probably kill her off next season lol

Good points. I think you're right about Rick sending Carol off in part to what he thought Tyrese would do. I'm guessing when he sees those 2 together, and that Tyrese has forgiven her, and especially because she has helped to save Judith, I'm guessing he forgives her too. Assuming they all make it back together!

Mrja84
March 18th, 2014, 08:22 AM
I wonder if Carol and Tyrees did the right thing. Could they have just left Lizzie by herself? She's probably get bitten on purpose, but that's her choice.

Is there how we are suppose to deal with mental illnesses in a life without any hospitals? Couldn't they bring her to Terminus in case they had doctors that could treat her?

While I understand the fear, the sadness, and grief. Did they do the right thing?

If they had, the kids would have always been supervised. Why is it that this show continues to show caregivers not being mindful of their kids and where they are?

It's annoying. First, Carl. Now these girls :(

Rosehawk
March 18th, 2014, 05:44 PM
^ Yes, Tyreese was carrying supposed to be carrying her in the backpack carrier thing with the blanket over it(I noticed because my mom thought they'd left the baby too); and I think that was the grave that was already there, the girls even mentioned it while they were sitting outside in one of the scenes.
They really didn't position the backpack carrying Judith very well on Tyreese's back. I don't think in real life it would hang that low, so low that Judith's head would be in the middle of Tyreese's back instead of near his neck and shoulders which would give her room to breathe a bit better.


It was a very sad episode, but I also thought that it was a good episode. The only thing I really didn't like was how Tyreese and Carol kept leaving the kids by themselves even though they knew Lizzie had issues. There were two of them there, one of them could have stayed with the kids and the other could have gone to do whatever(and if they needed help they could have taken one of the kids). True they might not have known just how out of touch with reality Lizzie was, or that she was killing animals; but they saw her playing tag with a Walker, and just because she finally shot one(because you have to be mean sometimes), didn't mean that she was ok. Obviously they were left alone for plot purposes(though there were other ways that Lizzie could've still killed her sister that didn't make Tyreese and Carol look so incompetent and irresponsible), but it didn't really make that much sense to leave them all there like that. Even if they'd never imagined that she could kill anyone, someone should've been keeping an eye on her to make sure she didn't go off to look for more Walkers to play with. It would have been more understandable if Lizzie hadn't seemed so out of touch with things around Carol and Tyreese during the episode.
Sometimes as adults, it is easy to put on blinders when kids they really truly care about start having serious issues which is what I think was happening with Carol and Tyreese. Sign's were there, though they didn't believe she would actually hurt anyone. The looks on their faces when they came to the realization that Lizzie couldn't be trusted with anyone anymore was one of pure anguish, a final realization. If Lizzie was an adult, I doubt they would have let it go as long as they did.

Lizzie was old enough to take care of the other two, she spent alot of time at the prison taking care of her sister and Judith so I can see Carol and Tyreese going off to find food, checking the area out, etc. and leaving Lizzie to take care of the other two as it was always the norm. The girls were near the house so if a Walker came around, Carol and Tyreese would assume that the girls would head into the house. I think that no matter what Lizzie had done in the past, they didn't think that she could ever hurt anyone, let alone her own sister.

mr_kennedy
March 18th, 2014, 06:25 PM
Good points. I think you're right about Rick sending Carol off in part to what he thought Tyrese would do. I'm guessing when he sees those 2 together, and that Tyrese has forgiven her, and especially because she has helped to save Judith, I'm guessing he forgives her too. Assuming they all make it back together!

We'll first think Tyreese done when it happened was beat the **** out of Rick, Rick Can handle himself, but Tyrese is much stronger physically then Carol lol :p


I wonder if Carol and Tyrees did the right thing. Could they have just left Lizzie by herself? She's probably get bitten on purpose, but that's her choice.

Is there how we are suppose to deal with mental illnesses in a life without any hospitals? Couldn't they bring her to Terminus in case they had doctors that could treat her?

While I understand the fear, the sadness, and grief. Did they do the right thing?

If they had, the kids would have always been supervised. Why is it that this show continues to show caregivers not being mindful of their kids and where they are?

It's annoying. First, Carl. Now these girls :(

Here's what I was thinking when that scene was playing i was like we'll i guess you put sick horses down, so really your putting Psycho Lizzy down like a horse, Carol must have lived in a farm or something :lol: :o that's bad right? :p

i guess it's a sign of the times, i guess we'd all be pretty ****ed up, Carl has atleast somewhat redeemed himself

squirrely1
March 18th, 2014, 08:46 PM
WOW Just WOW guys.... I've been away for a while because i've been so busy but I just had to jump on here to post something. *CRIES* :( that had to be one of the single most emotionally jarring eps I think I've seen. Aside from Sophia's death and well Lori's death... I think these girl's deaths were just heart wrenching.

At first I was just a tad annoyed at how seemingly inconsistent they were in writing Lizzy's character. I mean usually psychopath/sociopath's have zero empathy for anything or anyone. So I find it hard to believe that Lizzie would feel nothing for the living things...rabbits....people...her sister :eek: But have empathy for these dead walkers. I mean she cried more over the walker at the prison fence getting killed than her own father.... so it just seemed weird that she had the capacity for showing empathy it was just greatly misplaced. I think the writers invented a new type of mental illness there. :P I just don't think she would have any empathy for anyone. So yeah that was a bit inconsistent to me. I guess they were just trying to show that she was just so looney that her thought process was just unable to reason this all out properly.

It was a horrible conclusion, but poignant and beautifully poetic (if I can say that about this girl's death). I for one have a very severe mentally handicapped child and I think it would be my worst nightmare to have to face a decision like that...in a world such as this where you have no resources, no way to keep that disabled person safe or others safe from them...this was a very real emotionally moral dilemma because in a world like that....there wouldn't be much you could do to help people who were so emotionally or psychologically impaired. :(

Definitely the best ep of this half so far.

VampyreWraith
March 18th, 2014, 09:09 PM
I wonder if Carol and Tyrees did the right thing. Could they have just left Lizzie by herself? She's probably get bitten on purpose, but that's her choice.

Is there how we are suppose to deal with mental illnesses in a life without any hospitals? Couldn't they bring her to Terminus in case they had doctors that could treat her?

While I understand the fear, the sadness, and grief. Did they do the right thing?

If they had, the kids would have always been supervised. Why is it that this show continues to show caregivers not being mindful of their kids and where they are?

It's annoying. First, Carl. Now these girls :(

I think it would have been worse for Lizzie if they had just left her alone. She would have probably felt abandoned and scared; and even though it could have been her choice to get bitten, she didn't seem to understand what it really meant to be bitten. And if there were several walkers around when she decided she wanted to become one, she would probably not only have been bitten and turned, but likely eaten a bit before she turned.

They didn't know what they'd find in Terminus or if there would be doctors there that could treat her; and until they found someone that could help they would have to deal with her themselves. They had Judith to look out for and she'd already killed her sister. Some mental illnesses are easier to deal with/treat than others. Even if they did find someone who had the medical knowledge, there would be no guarantee that any treatments would help her and she would still always have to be monitored.

I agree with you that it's annoying to watch the lack of supervision of the kids on this show.



They really didn't position the backpack carrying Judith very well on Tyreese's back. I don't think in real life it would hang that low, so low that Judith's head would be in the middle of Tyreese's back instead of near his neck and shoulders which would give her room to breathe a bit better.


Sometimes as adults, it is easy to put on blinders when kids they really truly care about start having serious issues which is what I think was happening with Carol and Tyreese. Sign's were there, though they didn't believe she would actually hurt anyone. The looks on their faces when they came to the realization that Lizzie couldn't be trusted with anyone anymore was one of pure anguish, a final realization. If Lizzie was an adult, I doubt they would have let it go as long as they did.

Lizzie was old enough to take care of the other two, she spent alot of time at the prison taking care of her sister and Judith so I can see Carol and Tyreese going off to find food, checking the area out, etc. and leaving Lizzie to take care of the other two as it was always the norm. The girls were near the house so if a Walker came around, Carol and Tyreese would assume that the girls would head into the house. I think that no matter what Lizzie had done in the past, they didn't think that she could ever hurt anyone, let alone her own sister.

Yeah, her head would have been sticking up more, unless she was sleeping, I guess, and then it would have been leaning against Tyreese's shoulder. I'm pretty sure there isn't an actual baby in the carrier thing, and that's why it's covered up with a blanket. I guess they can't have the baby around all the time, and they can't do certain things(like running) with they baby. A few episodes ago both Tyreese and Lizzie took off after Mika, and they so left Judith behind while they were running through the woods, then all of a sudden they show Mika and then show Tyreese and Lizzie finding her, with Tyreese carrying Judith(even though it didn't look like there was a baby(or even a Judith-sized doll) in his arms while he was running through the woods).

Carol and Tyreese didn't see Lizzie playing tag with a walker at the prison, so they had no reason not to trust her back then, or to think that there was anything really wrong with her before this episode. As I mentioned in my other post, even if they didn't think that Lizzie would ever hurt anyone, they shouldn't have left her alone just in case she decided that it would be a good idea to play with walkers again. They'd seen her do that before, and even though she finally shot one, I don't see how they could take her word that she was ok. She was still a child and they saw that she had some issues. Just to be on the safe side, one of them should have stayed behind, that would have been what responsible adults would have done. It really wasn't necessary for both of them to go off together and leave the children behind. I realize the situation is different, but personally I don't even like leaving my 13 yr old alone in the house with my 7 yr old. I know that neither of them would intentionally hurt the other, and that they would probably just sit there playing video games the entire time, but sometimes kids don't think about what they're doing(even "normal" ones that are usually responsible), and they can do stupid things that could put themselves and/or someone else in danger.

rkgardner2003
March 19th, 2014, 12:41 PM
Interview with Gale Anne Hurd

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/03/19/walking-dead-gale-anne-hurd-the-grove/

TheRandomOne
March 19th, 2014, 08:27 PM
This one is for the game fans

39374

Mrja84
March 20th, 2014, 10:52 AM
At first I was just a tad annoyed at how seemingly inconsistent they were in writing Lizzy's character. I mean usually psychopath/sociopath's have zero empathy for anything or anyone. So I find it hard to believe that Lizzie would feel nothing for the living things...rabbits....people...her sister :eek: But have empathy for these dead walkers. I mean she cried more over the walker at the prison fence getting killed than her own father.... so it just seemed weird that she had the capacity for showing empathy it was just greatly misplaced. I think the writers invented a new type of mental illness there. :P I just don't think she would have any empathy for anyone. So yeah that was a bit inconsistent to me. I guess they were just trying to show that she was just so looney that her thought process was just unable to reason this all out properly.

It felt very reasonable. It's just about one condition. Lizzie didn't speak about it to others, but she did mention to Mika that she could "hear" the zombies.

Whether this was a condition she was born with or something that she developed after the end of the world is up in the air. But I could see it either way.

The zombies don't have guns, they don't say mean things. They are always present, they will not die like her dad or mother. They can continue on.

People can grow attach to just about anything and disconnect with regular human beings. It's not new.

In terms of survival she is right, Tyrees doesn't need to kill every walker he sees, even if it seems like a safe bet. Best to deal with them when you have no choice.

tomstone
March 20th, 2014, 05:32 PM
In terms of survival she is right, Tyrees doesn't need to kill every walker he sees, even if it seems like a safe bet. Best to deal with them when you have no choice.

Not really, we have seen time and time again, that these things just play Dead at that point and wait for someone to get close enough. Better to get rid of them so they cant bite anyone else, as small as the chance might be.

knowles2
March 21st, 2014, 04:48 AM
Not really, we have seen time and time again, that these things just play Dead at that point and wait for someone to get close enough. Better to get rid of them so they cant bite anyone else, as small as the chance might be.

An if they ever intend to make the world a safer place eliminating any zombies they come across, especially lone individuals is the way to do it.

Mrja84
March 21st, 2014, 10:09 AM
An if they ever intend to make the world a safer place eliminating any zombies they come across, especially lone individuals is the way to do it.

So I'm suppose to risk my life to kill any walkers I see, so potentially down the road the world is a safer place?

As it stands now, the zombie population is only growing with every death whether from bites or no-bites. So right now, their goal has to be survival and not killing zombies when they aren't forced.

Now if there was some way to "cure" people to prevent them from coming back as zombies, then sure I could see a settlement taking patrols and using traps to take out the remaining zombies. But right now, it just ain't worth it.

tomstone
March 22nd, 2014, 05:46 PM
So I'm suppose to risk my life to kill any walkers I see, so potentially down the road the world is a safer place?

As it stands now, the zombie population is only growing with every death whether from bites or no-bites. So right now, their goal has to be survival and not killing zombies when they aren't forced.

Now if there was some way to "cure" people to prevent them from coming back as zombies, then sure I could see a settlement taking patrols and using traps to take out the remaining zombies. But right now, it just ain't worth it.

I would do it, just for the sake to protect others. I might have noticed that Walker was still alive, but someone else comming by might not and loose their life. Of course Survival is important, but the Walkers need to be dealt with sooner or later. If not, they will just gather at the next point where they find Food and just increase their Numbers like we saw at the Prison, till there is nothing left.

knowles2
March 22nd, 2014, 06:59 PM
I would do it, just for the sake to protect others. I might have noticed that Walker was still alive, but someone else comming by might not and loose their life. Of course Survival is important, but the Walkers need to be dealt with sooner or later. If not, they will just gather at the next point where they find Food and just increase their Numbers like we saw at the Prison, till there is nothing left.

An the walkers at this stage are only threats in large numbers, the vast majority of people alive are just to experience at fighting zombies for them to be a serious threat on a 1 on 1 bases. Even children are taken zombies down with little to no trouble.


So I'm suppose to risk my life to kill any walkers I see, so potentially down the road the world is a safer place?


In this situation I be doing everything I can so that one day I can sleep knowing I am not going to wake up surrounded by walkers.


As it stands now, the zombie population is only growing with every death whether from bites or no-bites. So right now, their goal has to be survival and not killing zombies when they aren't forced.

Right the zombie population increasing, base on our view of this world is, the zombie population rapidly decreasing, we must have easily seen the gangs take out in excess of a 100 zombies and not a single human being turn into a zombie.


Now if there was some way to "cure" people to prevent them from coming back as zombies, then sure I could see a settlement taking patrols and using traps to take out the remaining zombies. But right now, it just ain't worth it. There no need for a cure, designing the correct accommodation can make a community zombie resistance. An if you can regain our technical capabilities, building wristbands with heart monitoring and a mobile signal would further enhance the community. Plus everyone alive now is more than capable of taking care of themselves.

Gen. Chris
March 26th, 2014, 01:09 AM
I know it's terrible to say, but everyone is better off with Lizzie gone. She did not see them as a threat, and would never actually kill them. Her disregard for them as a threat and her actions in general endangered everyone. When she first started acting weird I knew she would be a problem that needed to be dealt with.

Her sister, however, did not deserve that fate. But Lizzie certainly did.

Mrja84
March 26th, 2014, 09:11 AM
I know it's terrible to say, but everyone is better off with Lizzie gone. She did not see them as a threat, and would never actually kill them. Her disregard for them as a threat and her actions in general endangered everyone. When she first started acting weird I knew she would be a problem that needed to be dealt with.

Her sister, however, did not deserve that fate. But Lizzie certainly did.

She did kill at least 1 walker after they attacked Mika, her sister.

cosmichobo
August 3rd, 2014, 07:58 PM
Four words...

Of Mice And Men

:(

Was all I could think of as Carol took Lizzy for "that" walk...

Shocking, totally shocking...

Love it.