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GateWorld
November 26th, 2013, 08:04 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/the-time-of-the-doctor/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-time-of-the-doctor-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SPECIALS</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/the-time-of-the-doctor/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE TIME OF THE DOCTOR</A></FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Orbiting a quiet backwater planet, the massed forces of the universe's deadliest species gather, drawn to a mysterious message that echoes out to the stars -- and amongst them, the Doctor. Rescuing Clara from a family Christmas dinner, the Time Lord and his best friend must learn what this enigmatic signal means for his own fate and that of the universe. <I>(BBC)</I></DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/the-time-of-the-doctor/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Teddybrown
December 25th, 2013, 11:31 AM
Goodnight Matt Smith, you were great!

Sealurk
December 25th, 2013, 11:31 AM
I'll post properly when I stop blubbing.

I loved it.

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
December 25th, 2013, 11:41 AM
I caught the last 5minutes and had a question: he says "here it is, regeneration #13", now counting the War Doctor, that means he was regenerating for the 12th time right (into the 13th incarnation). So by regeneration he meant incarnation and not the process itself, does that mean that this Doctor is officially Doctor #13?

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 11:45 AM
I feel somewhat vindicated now, as I've been saying for years that Tenth wasted a regeneration when he put that energy into his hand. This is me, after so many years, saying I told you so.

I have to admit, I was looking forward to seeing the whole regeneration sequence from Eleven to Twelve, but I found it to be much more emotional knowing the regeneration had finished but has holding out just a bit longer so he could get in his goodbyes. It really was emotional seeing him there in the end, but nice to see Twelve starting off on the humorous side.

Given the state of Trenzalore during last years Christmas special, I am surprised the planet didn't end up looking more like that. Should be interesting to see how River Song comes into play since she knew about the yet to be created secret passages and TARDIS monument.


I caught the last 5minutes and had a question: he says "here it is, regeneration #13", now counting the War Doctor, that means he was regenerating for the 12th time right (into the 13th incarnation). So by regeneration he meant incarnation and not the process itself, does that mean that this Doctor is officially Doctor #13?

When you rewatch from the start, he does explain all his previous regenerations. So this is regeneration 13, the thirteenth person he has been but only The Twelfth Doctor because The War Doctor was a separate incarnation so outside the 1-12 naming pattern.

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 11:48 AM
Must... confer....

Must... discuss.......

Need.... conference.... with... the geekdom...

What the blasted hell?

I understood everything that happened, but I don't understand how I *feel*!

With Nine I had giddy bouncy joy at a perfect goodbye speech and some excellent first lines... with Ten I had annoyance at the emo nature of the swan song and joyful optimism for Eleven... For Eight I had ecstatic glee at finally seeing the final moments of *my* Doctor, who I had first seen following the regeneration of Seven so many years ago, when I was so much younger, and was enthralled by the endless possibilities...

But... this... I.... I don't know... I just don't know how to feel. I was delighted by the casting of Capaldi, but his brief scene has done nothing for me compared to Ten or Eleven's debut...

I just don't know... somebody PLEASE make sense of this for me? Preferably my establishing some kind of telepathic link up and sorting through my brain for me...

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 25th, 2013, 11:51 AM
'Do you know how to fly this thing?!'

Quizziard
December 25th, 2013, 11:56 AM
Loved the final line.

But, for the rest? Nope. Sorry. Standard Christmas bleurgh. Padded, meandering, and full of plot holes. Okay, some reasonable tie-ups to long-standing questions, but, really...

And no, I don't feel much emotion about it. Not, for example, compared to the entire Curator scene. Let's see what Peter can do...

Cmdr Sean Coll
December 25th, 2013, 12:04 PM
Holy ****!! that was an emotional and action filled Christmas special. I knew it!!! The Time Lords giving the Doctor a brand new full regeneration cycle!!! Before you guys argue the time lords have given the master several new full regeneration cycles in the past.
Is the new Doctors new season going to be him trying to rescue his fellow time lords and homeworld??

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 12:10 PM
... it just seemed... too cheap and easy. All that effort, and the Doctor could have just told the Time Lords to take a chill pill and not come through there and then... They seemed to naff off fairly easily...

I don't MIND the good Doctor being given a new regeneration cycle... but the WAY it was done just felt a little non-dramatic...

Also - anyone notice that the Doctor DID lie... TWICE?! There were some great moments (loved the use of the seal of the high council nicked from the Master), but I don't know...

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 12:10 PM
But... this... I.... I don't know... I just don't know how to feel. I was delighted by the casting of Capaldi, but his brief scene has done nothing for me compared to Ten or Eleven's debut...

I just don't know... somebody PLEASE make sense of this for me? Preferably my establishing some kind of telepathic link up and sorting through my brain for me...

I think they did that on purpose. I don't think this had much to do with the introduction of Twelve, but the departure of Eleven. He couldn't have gotten that proper sending off if he fully regenerated on that tower. Granted this was the official introduction of Capaldi's Doctor, I think we're supposed to take his appearance in the 50th anniversary into account, going from confident eyes flying the TARDIS, to this his newly regenerated form who doesn't have a clue.

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 12:13 PM
Also - anyone notice that the Doctor DID lie... TWICE?! There were some great moments (loved the use of the seal of the high council nicked from the Master), but I don't know...

I know one lie was to the wooden Cyberman, but what was the second?

I wouldn't actually consider what he said to the Cyberman a lie. What he said was technically true, he did reroute the weapons direction, he just left out the fact it wouldn't work on a wooden cyberman.

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 12:16 PM
I know one lie was to the wooden Cyberman, but what was the second?

I wouldn't actually consider what he said to the Cyberman a lie. What he said was technically true, he did reroute the weapons direction, he just left out the fact it wouldn't work on a wooden cyberman.

"I'll never send you away again."

and

"I have a plan...

...I don't really have a plan, people just like hearing that"

(or words to those effects...)

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 12:18 PM
"I'll never send you away again."

and

"I have a plan...

...I don't really have a plan, people just like hearing that"

(or words to those effects...)

Did he really send her away, or did he send the TARDIS away with her inside it? Or perhaps being inside the TARDIS made the truth field ineffective. As for having a plan, can't explain that one away.

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 12:23 PM
Did he really send her away, or did he send the TARDIS away with her inside it? Or perhaps being inside the TARDIS made the truth field ineffective. As for having a plan, can't explain that one away.

I'm downloading on iPlayer... I *need* to rewatch but...

(spoilered for crude comment)


I feel like I just had sex and failed to climax...


That's how the ending has made me feel... it just doesn't feel RIGHT... like there's so much more to be said... like it's incomplete... maybe part of that is the lack of a 'Coming Soon in Series 8' that we usually get...

When Ten regenerated it looked like a brand new beginning... this doesn't *feel* like that... it feels... abrupt.

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 12:39 PM
Your spoiler and a lack of "Coming Soon". I have a dirty mind.

I wouldn't pay any attention to a lack of Coming Soon since they've not started filming yet. I think that weird split in the middle of season 7 plus filming Sherlock is probably the reason. I've always considered the introduction of the new Doctor more of a teaser than anything else, but as we had that teaser with the 50th, I do feel a bit let down too, because they pretty much just rehashed Eleven's introduction by having them (seemingly) crash into something. For me, it's the 50th that got me interested in Twelfth, so I see this more of a joking start to it all.

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 01:21 PM
Your spoiler and a lack of "Coming Soon". I have a dirty mind.

I wouldn't pay any attention to a lack of Coming Soon since they've not started filming yet. I think that weird split in the middle of season 7 plus filming Sherlock is probably the reason. I've always considered the introduction of the new Doctor more of a teaser than anything else, but as we had that teaser with the 50th, I do feel a bit let down too, because they pretty much just rehashed Eleven's introduction by having them (seemingly) crash into something. For me, it's the 50th that got me interested in Twelfth, so I see this more of a joking start to it all.

Dirty minds are the best ;) :P

I know why there wasn't a preview... but it always felt an important part of the Christmas Specials to me... and *incredibly* important part... possibly as important as the episode itself... Capaldi just didn't show me he'd be a good Doctor...

As for the story... I'm *still* miffed about Gallifrey and the way it was used as a deus ex machina, almost ignoring completely the very reason the whole damn Mexican stand off had happened...

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 01:47 PM
The Gallifrey thing took me by surprise. I was honestly expecting River's regeneration energy to be used as a way out. I can't really believe it took all her remaining regenerations to revive him at the start of series 7 but not enough to actually kick him into changing.

The whole Trenzalore battle seemed wrong to me overall. They kept the old man bit in check, but not the millions of dead and The Doctor dying. In fact, it would seem like all his enemies know he's very much alive now since he regenerated and the only people to die were Daleks, their possessed who were technically dead the the people of a single village who actually survived.

So where was this huge battle and the graves.

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 02:19 PM
The Gallifrey thing took me by surprise. I was honestly expecting River's regeneration energy to be used as a way out. I can't really believe it took all her remaining regenerations to revive him at the start of series 7 but not enough to actually kick him into changing.

I was expecting Tasha to turn out to be River, and that she would explain to the Doctor as he was regenerating that she'd reset it... or something...



The whole Trenzalore battle seemed wrong to me overall. They kept the old man bit in check, but not the millions of dead and The Doctor dying. In fact, it would seem like all his enemies know he's very much alive now since he regenerated and the only people to die were Daleks, their possessed who were technically dead the the people of a single village who actually survived.

So where was this huge battle and the graves.


All I can assume is that the battle was bigger than the town of Christmas itself... I wonder if outside of that town, there were hundreds of Clerics fighting off enemy forces...

knowles2
December 25th, 2013, 02:27 PM
Given that the last time we saw the Time Lords they were evil, I guess that they did more to the Doctor than just granting him a few more regenerations. Wiping his memory may just be the beginning of their plan to return to this universe.

I am disappointed that we didn't see how the battle played out before the Time Lords intervention.

An couldn't they have gave him the regenerations through the small crack, instead of the big giant crack in the sky. I wonder if there any connection between Clara Grandmother and the Doctor.

Given how weak the human race is usually presented, I found it strange that a single vessel could hold off hundreds of races by itself. The space scenes and CGI looked good for once, it seems someone at the BBC been listening to my complaints about crap look space ships and space scenes generally.

Why didn't any of the Doctor friends show up to help him throughout the 1000 year plus war.

There must be way more villages, towns and cities on Trenzalore to support and provide food to Christmas, there wouldn't be enough sunlight to produce food.

Ian-S
December 25th, 2013, 02:39 PM
It does seem this regeneration is more of a reset than a regeneration, with his line of asking if she knew how to fly it, unless his next words are, just kidding...

Flyboy
December 25th, 2013, 03:01 PM
It does seem this regeneration is more of a reset than a regeneration, with his line of asking if she knew how to fly it, unless his next words are, just kidding...

The Doctor has almost always been an absolute mess following regeneration... and this is a BIG regeneration...

2nd > 3rd: Some sort of a coma (if I recall)
3rd > 4th: Erratic behaviour
4th > 5th: Distinctly unwell, requiring a zero room, and I believe some memory loss
5th > 6th: Volatile behaviour, positively unbalanced, nearly killed companion.
6th > 7th: Memory loss (though at the hands of the Rani, I believe...)
7th > 8th: A HELL of a lot of amnesia, brought on by too long between 'lives'
8th > War Doctor: Unknown
War Doctor > 9th: Unknown
9th > 10th: Reckless, unstable, manic - opening up the TARDIS engines fully..
10th > 11th: Quite unstable... also with cravings...

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 03:21 PM
I just had a thought about Madam Kovarian. Ultimately, The Order of the Silence was purposed with stopping another Time War, as all The Doctor's enemies would have launched a new attack on Gallifrey (for whatever reason) and plunged the universe unknown chaos. While her intention was to kill The Doctor, she was doing it for a good reason.

So in all, she's a bit of a good guy.

That said, it is somewhat contradictory. She talks about being in a war with The Doctor, perhaps she means the 300+ years he was camped out on Trenzalore and it always seemed the Silent/Silence (not sure which name is used) aliens ran the show. It's hard to believe The Doctor created a subconscious command to kill the Silence on sight but have them create a religious order (even a subsect of one) trying to stop The Doctor from his fate.

knowles2
December 25th, 2013, 03:51 PM
The silence are still quite the mystery. Through the Doctor seem to have learnt a lot more about them off screen, something was said about them being genetically engineered.

SaberBlade
December 25th, 2013, 03:53 PM
The silence are still quite the mystery. Through the Doctor seem to have learnt a lot more about them off screen, something was said about them being genetically engineered.

Genetically Engineered Priests. You confess your sins and then you forget. Which is weird, as it seemed like they were running the order, were killing people who could betray them (at least in the alternate reality created by River) and had been living on Earth for as long as humans, perhaps longer. Plus they inspired humanity to go to space (if what The Doctor said was true). Bit weird for a race of alien priests.

knowles2
December 25th, 2013, 04:08 PM
Genetically Engineered Priests. You confess your sins and then you forget. Which is weird, as it seemed like they were running the order, were killing people who could betray them (at least in the alternate reality created by River) and had been living on Earth for as long as humans, perhaps longer. Plus they inspired humanity to go to space (if what The Doctor said was true). Bit weird for a race of alien priests.

They also seem to be the equivalent of a super soldier as well.

Greenee
December 25th, 2013, 05:03 PM
What the hell was that? This acctully was the first Episode of Doctor who with left me completely unsattisfided and dissapointest. I was ready to cry my eyes out over the death of 11 (or twelve, whatever). I wantid it to be dramatic and cheasy and solving questions from "the name and the doctor", and yes, I wanted to see a kiss between 11 and Clara (please don't hit me!) But what did we get? Some silly joke about the doctor beeing Claras lover, that was just not like the Doctor we knew. Than: the Doctor aging, didn't like it but ok I could live with that, but the Doctor becomming sort of Father CHristmas.. realy? Please! And...

Loved the final line.

But, for the rest? Nope. Sorry. Standard Christmas bleurgh. Padded, meandering, and full of plot holes. Okay, some reasonable tie-ups to long-standing questions, but, really...

And no, I don't feel much emotion about it. Not, for example, compared to the entire Curator scene. Let's see what Peter can do...

That preaty much summs it up.


... it just seemed... too cheap and easy. All that effort, and the Doctor could have just told the Time Lords to take a chill pill and not come through there and then... They seemed to naff off fairly easily...

I don't MIND the good Doctor being given a new regeneration cycle... but the WAY it was done just felt a little non-dramatic...

Also - anyone notice that the Doctor DID lie... TWICE?! There were some great moments (loved the use of the seal of the high council nicked from the Master), but I don't know...

I totaly agree. As for the lying bit..



Did he really send her away, or did he send the TARDIS away with her inside it? Or perhaps being inside the TARDIS made the truth field ineffective. As for having a plan, can't explain that one away.

He did't send her away, he left her, so technicy he wasn't lying. And on the other hand, if I got it ride, they alredy were back at Claras place so he wasn't bount to telling the truth anymore anyway.





(spoilered for crude comment)


I feel like I just had sex and failed to climax...


That's how the ending has made me feel... it just doesn't feel RIGHT... like there's so much more to be said... like it's incomplete... maybe part of that is the lack of a 'Coming Soon in Series 8' that we usually get...

When Ten regenerated it looked like a brand new beginning... this doesn't *feel* like that... it feels... abrupt.

Like the comparison :D I'm supriesed to agree with you in so many points ;) As for the "coming soon".. I did't miss that, since I usually turn the teasers of in fear of spoliers.


Anything else... Liked the explanation how the silence were created. But I still don't know, how did Clara and the Doctor escape from the timestream and why is Clara a teacher now? By the way? who were the two other people at the christamasdinner? Her gran and? aunt and uncle? Or did I just missed the introduction, beeing too busy shaking my head about the holgramclothing-rubbish?

Never though I would be talking so bad about the show, and now I realy should stop talking.

But- one last point - loking forfard to Capaldi now.

The Flyattractor
December 25th, 2013, 06:42 PM
Sigh. Typical NuWho Nonsense.
Overemotional Teenage style Melodramatic Nonsense. Also rather unimaginative.

And I really hate the why this series intros characters and then tosses them aside like trash and acts like we should be deeply emotionally attached to them...*aka Handles*.

For me...this show somehow manages to keep getting worse.

min min light
December 25th, 2013, 08:55 PM
Also - anyone notice that the Doctor DID lie... TWICE?!

The one I noticed was "I don't really have a plan," and I don't think anyone came up with a good excuse for that one yet. Besides Moffat just forgetting his own rules. :D

I'm so sad to see Matt Smith go. I didn't know what people were talking about with all the "Doctor X is MY Doctor" statements until Eleven showed up. *sigh*

Quizziard
December 25th, 2013, 09:31 PM
The one I noticed was "I don't really have a plan," and I don't think anyone came up with a good excuse for that one yet. Besides Moffat just forgetting his own rules. :D

It was said that the truth field got stronger the closer you were to the tower: maybe being at the top of the tower was like the eye of a hurricane, where you burst through to a piece of non-truth field? [I know, it's just a flaw in the script ;) ]

Sorry Moffatt - I think you need to choose, DW or SH. One or the other, trying to do both is not working (at least on the DW side). And please concentrate on your scripts.

min min light
December 25th, 2013, 09:42 PM
I guess that'll work, but then you have to wonder why he would be required to answer the question honestly when he could have just scuttled off a ways from the field and lied. :D

iiradned
December 26th, 2013, 01:01 AM
The Doctor has almost always been an absolute mess following regeneration... and this is a BIG regeneration...

2nd > 3rd: Some sort of a coma (if I recall)
3rd > 4th: Erratic behaviour
4th > 5th: Distinctly unwell, requiring a zero room, and I believe some memory loss
5th > 6th: Volatile behaviour, positively unbalanced, nearly killed companion.
6th > 7th: Memory loss (though at the hands of the Rani, I believe...)
7th > 8th: A HELL of a lot of amnesia, brought on by too long between 'lives'
8th > War Doctor: Unknown
War Doctor > 9th: Unknown
9th > 10th: Reckless, unstable, manic - opening up the TARDIS engines fully..
10th > 11th: Quite unstable... also with cravings...

Wasn't regeneration into the War Doctor the most stable one? Seeing it was done on Karn where they could design the regeneration according what was desired. Ohila said the Sisterhood could make the Doctor young or old, fat or thin, man or woman. The Doctor chose to be a warrior in order to stop the Time War.

I think it is part of the Doctor's personality to roll the dice where regeneration is concerned. Romana tried on several bodies before settling a copy of Princess Astra during her first regeneration.

Greenee
December 26th, 2013, 01:07 AM
It was said that the truth field got stronger the closer you were to the tower: maybe being at the top of the tower was like the eye of a hurricane, where you burst through to a piece of non-truth field? [I know, it's just a flaw in the script ;) ]

Sorry Moffatt - I think you need to choose, DW or SH. One or the other, trying to do both is not working (at least on the DW side). And please concentrate on your scripts.


I believe you are right. Sherlock and Who is too much to chew at once and don't forget he had the Anniversary on his plate too. Writing 3 brillant skripst for 3 very very long waited for episodes, is too much to ask from anyone. He did more than well with the anniversary (in my opinion) even if there were some plotwhols, too. But this one? No sorry, it just felt wrong all the way through. :(


Anyway I felt realy sorry for Clara, beeing puched around like this, just let left to stand there watching frome the sideline, whiele the Doctor seemd to care more about new and ald friends than her. Did you see the look on her face as he said he finaly found a place where he was needed to stay (ore somthing like that?) as if he had no idea what he meant to her. I know (and I'm sure Clara knows as well) she isn't the only one for him, that he had lots of friends/companions/lovers/whatevers, but he could have payed a little more attention to her.

Matt G
December 26th, 2013, 02:50 AM
Welll...

1. Credit to them for getting in a whole lot of references.

2. Christmas town...not a bad idea...but hanging around for what...300 years?

3. So basically, the Timelords gave the Doctor a new regeneration cycle as an "Outstanding Achievement" award. OK...that works...

4. Well that was the strangest regeneration yet...

Solid but a step down from "The Day of the Doctor".

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 26th, 2013, 03:11 AM
I've never seen an episode split so many people.

Still, I think that's good.

I, for one, thought it was the best regeneration episode of all of the modern ones. Cleverer than both The End of Time and Parting of the Ways. I try not to compare it to The Day of the Doctor, which was always going to be of a unique standard due to its special status (and guest stars).

I do agree that Moffat's storylines can become awfully convuluted at times, so I'm hoping that when Series 8 comes along he starts to simplify things at bit. I do love how we've had an era of rewarding storytelling however, making a change from RTD's more straightforward approach.

On the episode's story I had guessed that many of the staples of the Eleventh Doctor's era would be resolved, but I was really satisfied with their execution. I also love the fact and was really surprised that Moffat chose to give Gallifrey a starring role so soon after The Day of the Doctor.

Also, I was one of the people who always tried to ignore the fact that Ten had used two regenerations (although mainly because I always thought that The Stolen Earth/Journey's End were amongst the worst episodes written in the revived show), but I'm glad to that this too was sorted out. 'Vanity phase' :D

I suspect Moffat may only stay on until the end of Series 8 but if he decides to remain until the BBC have to let him go, for however many seasons he wants, then I'll be watching.

This could be one of my top ten episodes.

Greenee
December 26th, 2013, 03:17 AM
Just rewatched it and I have to say, it was better this time. Still not pleased with it but I have to admit, it had some nice and touching scence. The acting and technical stuff was as excelent as always of course (except the aging of the Doctor, that did'nt look convincing at all).

But I do think, as much as I'm goning to miss Matts Doctor I'm gonig to realy like Capaldis version. Let's see :)

thenimf
December 26th, 2013, 10:22 AM
I don't understand what the supposed lies that the Doctor said were.

"I will never leave you again (because I am doing it right now, for the last time)" is what the Doctor was saying to Clara. I don't see how that wasn't obvious :p

"I don't have a plan."- He planned to go up there to die. Depending on your frame of mind, this is both a plan and no plan at all. He wasn't lying, it just depends on how you choose to answer the question.

Coco Pops
December 26th, 2013, 10:53 AM
That was an interesting episode. A bit bumpity bumpy along the way.. The regen was longish, but the face change was short and quick as one moment Matt Smith the next Peter Capaldi....... But yeah why did he pull such a weird face? He did look like Michael Crawford as someone else suggested..

Clara was OK in this episode. In fact she was smashing. That red skirt my oh my, oh my.........

Loved the Cyberman head he keeps around.

Only confused about The Silence. I thought they were all one and not in factions......That woman whatever her name was said that the Kovarian group was a rogue group that blew up the TARDIS and tried to stop The Doctor... In other words I thought they were like a hive mind..

Greenee
December 26th, 2013, 12:04 PM
I do agree that Moffat's storylines can become awfully convuluted at times, so I'm hoping that when Series 8 comes along he starts to simplify things at bit. I do love how we've had an era of rewarding storytelling however, making a change from RTD's more straightforward approach.

On the episode's story I had guessed that many of the staples of the Eleventh Doctor's era would be resolved, but I was really satisfied with their execution. I also love the fact and was really surprised that Moffat chose to give Gallifrey a starring role so soon after The Day of the Doctor.



Usally I don't mind, no usually I love the mindtwisting stuff Moffat comes up with, even if there are some plotwholes left. But this episodes somewho leaves me unsatisfied. I seems like he got entangled in all his storylines he created plus the one still runing from previus writers, more or less fixed rules of teh show etc. It seems like he tried to answer too many questions at ones, like you cut off a knot you can't loose anymore.

on the other hand, thinking about it it seemd an good idea for a story, even the final of eleven, but it didn't tap out it's potential. I rather seems like an unfinished sketch, like there wasn't enought time to work out the skript propperly, which I guess, is quite likely to be the case.

thenimf
December 26th, 2013, 12:38 PM
I saw it was as a really neat loose-end tie up and celebration of the entire Matt Smith run. The Siege of Trenzalore is meant to resolve any last questions about who the Silence are and how they achieved what they did from seasons 5-7.

Random tidbids:
- Did anyone else notice Dalek-form Tasha Lem shoot green sparkly energy into Clara? I found this mighty suspicious
- A Faction of the Silence breaking off and going back in time to stop the Doctor in seasons 5-7 was a great way to provide context to their hatred - imagine if you were a religious order devoted to protecting peace, and here you were sacrificing everything for a madman trying to defend a race that will just bring endless war.
- The TARDIS monument, sparky time-tunnel corpse and 'River Song' gravestone secret tunnel still haven't been resolved. I don't think we're done with Trenzalore yet.
- Clara confessed her love and physical attraction to the Doctor, which I think is setting her up for her eventual departure in s8/9 as the older appearance of Peter Capaldi would just make that super awkward for a family show

The moment they mentioned a small human colony on Trenzalore and the Gallifrey mix-up... I got chills. I think that there was a bit of misdirection about the question not being answered due to the Time Lords bursting through.. this was simply one level of understanding, because they don't know the answer and so their interpretation of the question is different.

I'm utterly convinced that RTD and SM have been heading for a big reveal about the creation of the Time Lords or the universe itself, and how the Doctor was a key player in whatever event occurred.

Isn't it curious that humans can apparently make Time Lords (or something close) just by having sex in a TARDIS? What if that's how it all began? Maybe the Time Lords began as nothing but refugees from Christmas/Trenzalore. Their entire origin covered up in order to safeguard the very fragile thread holding them in reality. While their own race eventually grows to be quite arrogant and war-like, they tolerate and allow the Doctor to move about freely because they understand they need him to facilitate their own dawn.

One thing I've thought about with all this timey-whimey stuff - what if the Doctor and the Time Lords are just echoes and manifestations that are a side-effect of time itself. The Doctor's secret is that he preserved Gallifrey in a bubble so that he could put it back into position at the beginning - effectively meaning that there was no original Gallifrey, it is a planet that exists due to it's own pre-destiny paradox.

min min light
December 26th, 2013, 03:45 PM
"I don't have a plan."- He planned to go up there to die. Depending on your frame of mind, this is both a plan and no plan at all. He wasn't lying, it just depends on how you choose to answer the question.

Either he had a plan or he didn't - if he didn't have a plan, he lied when he said he had a plan. If he did have a plan, he lied when he said he didn't have a plan.

thenimf
December 26th, 2013, 07:30 PM
Either he had a plan or he didn't - if he didn't have a plan, he lied when he said he had a plan. If he did have a plan, he lied when he said he didn't have a plan.

No, that's exactly the point. The Doctor is clever and can 'work around' the lie, while still carrying it out.

Quizziard
December 26th, 2013, 10:18 PM
No, that's exactly the point. The Doctor is clever and can 'work around' the lie, while still carrying it out.

He IS clever, but as proved earlier, the truth field is absolute (unless you're in an "eye of the storm" [which isn't mnentioned] or outside it's perimeter). More likely is that there is no "plan" just a few things he intends to do... which is sufficiently vague (even though though it's intended) to be called a "plan". For example, my thoughts for today are to slob around the house in a onesie and watch DVDs: it's a list of actions but I'd not call it a plan. [And, for the record, like the Doctor I sometimes lie!]

thenimf
December 26th, 2013, 10:48 PM
He IS clever, but as proved earlier, the truth field is absolute (unless you're in an "eye of the storm" [which isn't mnentioned] or outside it's perimeter). More likely is that there is no "plan" just a few things he intends to do... which is sufficiently vague (even though though it's intended) to be called a "plan". For example, my thoughts for today are to slob around the house in a onesie and watch DVDs: it's a list of actions but I'd not call it a plan. [And, for the record, like the Doctor I sometimes lie!]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at :)

He was planning to die, so it's not really so much of a plan as "I'm gonna go up there and see what happens".

min min light
December 27th, 2013, 03:07 AM
If he was planning something, no matter what it was, then he wasn't lying about having a plan - but he was lying when he said he didn't really have a plan. And vice-versa. And if he figured out a way to get around the truth field, then why did he need to stay there all those years? And why write a truth field that's that unreliable - it makes the entire plot pointless if it's really the sometimes-you-can-lie "truth" field.

Moffat just dropped the ball there, which is fine, he's human.

thenimf
December 27th, 2013, 06:20 AM
If he was planning something, no matter what it was, then he wasn't lying about having a plan - but he was lying when he said he didn't really have a plan.
You're obsessing over syntax and not taking in the possibility that 'having a plan' can have different levels of meaning.


And vice-versa. And if he figured out a way to get around the truth field, then why did he need to stay there all those years?

Because everyone would've still blown up that village. Because he was still on his last regeneration up until seconds before his reset.


And why write a truth field that's that unreliable - it makes the entire plot pointless if it's really the sometimes-you-can-lie "truth" field.

Moffat just dropped the ball there, which is fine, he's human.

Again, no one actually lied in the truth field. I don't understand why you won't acknowledge anything beyond literal interpretations of the script.... especially considering that this is an over-acted Fantasy/Scifi kids show :P

Ian-S
December 27th, 2013, 06:55 AM
Could I ask what may seem a silly question, if the Timelords had enough confirmation to give him a new regeneration cycle, why did they then close the 'doorway' and not come through, I thought the whole idea of sending the Doctor Who? message through the crack was to confirm it was the correct reality so they could come back...?

Not a lame arse plot device to explain away the regeration limit... the River Song giving him her regenerations theory floating about was a far more plausible idea.

thenimf
December 27th, 2013, 07:11 AM
Could I ask what may seem a silly question, if the Timelords had enough confirmation to give him a new regeneration cycle, why did they then close the 'doorway' and not come through, I thought the whole idea of sending the Doctor Who? message through the crack was to confirm it was the correct reality so they could come back...?

Not a lame arse plot device to explain away the regeration limit... the River Song giving him her regenerations theory floating about was a far more plausible idea.

It's the same reason Tasha Lem randomly zapped Clara with green sparks that looked like the time-tunnel corpse in "The Name of the Doctor".

Trenzalore is not over :P We haven't seen our last 'crack in the wall' story.

Ian-S
December 27th, 2013, 09:31 AM
Need to go back and rewatch time if the doctor then me thinks lol

Quizziard
December 27th, 2013, 10:51 AM
Could I ask what may seem a silly question, if the Timelords had enough confirmation to give him a new regeneration cycle, why did they then close the 'doorway' and not come through, I thought the whole idea of sending the Doctor Who? message through the crack was to confirm it was the correct reality so they could come back...?

Not a lame arse plot device to explain away the regeration limit... the River Song giving him her regenerations theory floating about was a far more plausible idea.

Maybe they've spent long enough in their pocket universe to determine they need to stop the Time War, and that with an army of Daleks on the metaphorical doorstep of their return route, this won't happen.

Coco Pops
December 27th, 2013, 04:32 PM
I did like how the Daleks got around the fact Clara had wiped all the information about the Doctor from them, from the start of the last series by raiding the mind of Tasha Lem

cosmichobo
December 27th, 2013, 04:51 PM
What I thought, for what it's worth...

Very unsatisfying ending to ultimately my least favourite Doctor... and the horrid realisation that no matter what potential Capaldi may offer to the show, with Moffat continuing at the reigns, it may continue to be a bumpy ride...

The episode started with potential. Yes, we had needless nudity jokes, Christmas dinner (ok, I get it - it's a Christmas special... but it's also the end of a Doctor's era...), and then a nice little OMG moment - the planet is what?! Gallifrey?!

And it all went fairly pear shaped after that. We had lots of one line explanations for Moffat's reckless story telling... Several ultimately pointless cameos of favourite bad guys... a quite decent new bad-ass-tress... though ultimately as noted probably, she tended to feel like another River Song somehow... And after that, it just falls into the realm of "Well, this could have been a huge epic story but instead we'll give you the CliffsNotes".

One may have spent half of his regen story in bed... but at least he had a great story going on around him for his departure. Time of the Doctor isn't a story I see myself re-watching a billion times like Caves, nor Logopolis, nor - any of the other regen stories.

PS Amy's little cameo... At first I just felt that it belittled Clara as the new companion... but ultimately I think I liked it... 10's farewell tour was too much... but it was well handled...

PPS The Master was offered a new regen cycle in The 5 Docs - he did not receive it.

Morgania
December 27th, 2013, 09:07 PM
Uh, what now? Which number is he? How did the Time Lords change that? Will there be more regenerations now? It was all so wibbly- wobbly timey-wimey.

Quizziard
December 27th, 2013, 11:06 PM
They've reset the count, if I understood it. So twelve more. But, does that make him 14 or nu-one?

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 27th, 2013, 11:12 PM
It was makes him the titular Twelve Doctor, the Thirteenth incarnation and the Fourteenth overall regeneration (counting John Hurt at the Ninth incarnation, and also because Ten used two regenerations for vanity's sake).

iiradned
December 28th, 2013, 12:46 AM
Deleted scene

http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/videos/clara-and-the-doctor-hug-it-out/

Coco Pops
December 28th, 2013, 06:13 AM
What happened to all the regenerations River gave him to save his life?

Tasha Lem could fly the TARDIS. Only the Doctor and River could fly the TARDIS...... hmmmmmmmm.

Is she River Song?

Quizziard
December 28th, 2013, 06:20 AM
He's allowed to have more than one friend?

Having watched it a second time, I don't think it's quite as bad. Perhaps having lower expectations helps? And the "Raggedy Man, goodbye" bit actually had some emotion the second time round. Definitely worth 1/10 more for the second viewing, maybe even 2. And, weirdly, I can't work out why.

The Flyattractor
December 28th, 2013, 06:37 AM
Uh, what now? Which number is he? How did the Time Lords change that? Will there be more regenerations now? It was all so wibbly- wobbly timey-wimey.

I would say its less a case of Timey-wimey then it is Moffaty-woffaty.

Sealurk
December 28th, 2013, 09:32 AM
Now that I've had a few days to deal with the turkey poisoning and diabetic coma that Christmas brings with it (and enjoy my whole two days off work), I can actually post properly about Time of the Doctor.

I've watched it several times now. Bits work, much of it doesn't. It was fun, it was funny, it didn't always make a hell of a lot of sense and there were some things that were wrapped up too easily and too quickly, but all in all it was enjoyable though curiously hollow-feeling and rushed.

I hope the Doctor's new regenerative cycle has consequences beyond our favourite Time Lord getting a whole new set of lives. He's exhausted his natural regenerations - might there be problems with now using gifted regenerations, especially considering that the Doctor himself says they're dealing with some serious science?

Tasha Lem being able to pilot the TARDIS annoyed me, to be honest. I was expecting a River cameo for that (actually I was expecting Tasha to turn out to be River in some fashion, especially given how she was written and acted).

Learning more about the Silents, the Church (did like the lines "Keeping you safe in this life and the next" and the "The papal mainframe apologises for your death. The relevant afterlife has been notified") and how everything fits together was a bonus, though I think these are things that would have benefited from a regular episode dedicated to them.

The revelation that the Silents were genetically engineered as confessor priests is both brilliant and dull. It doesn't make all that much sense to me - and has the Doctor quietly perfected countermeasures to their memory-proofing?

However, the big thing is of course the regeneration, and I have mixed feelings. I suspected the Doctor would in some fashion use the regeneration to achieve something (in this case taking down Daleks), so I'm happy about that. Eleven's reset and the idea the new cycle takes longer to kick in and settle down were nice touches, as it wouldn't have felt right saying goodbye to the Eleventh Doctor while he looks radically different to how we've known him, though the actual transition was, for me, far too fast. I await the fan-edits in which Smith morphs into Capaldi over a few seconds, glowing all the time. Hell, Hurt got a half-decent regeneration in which he nearly turns into Ecclestone, and he had one episode!

Eleven's/Smith's pre-regeneration goodbye was, for me, lump-in-the-throat, 'something in my eye' territory, largely because Eleven is without a doubt my Doctor. I know others didn't like it but for me the whole speech was effective and poignant while generally staying on the right side of sentimental, however the final line "I will always remember when the Doctor was me" pretty much did for me.

Hard to say from only a minute or so of screen time but Capaldi might be a pretty damn good Doctor. Hope he gets some slightly better material than Smith was at times lumbered with - some slightly less kid-friendly fare would be very welcome now.

Not brilliant, not awful, but definitely a bit sad saying goodbye to my favourite incarnation yet. Genuinely feels like the end of an era for me, though I now have high hopes for Capaldi.

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 28th, 2013, 09:58 AM
What happened to all the regenerations River gave him to save his life?

Tasha Lem could fly the TARDIS. Only the Doctor and River could fly the TARDIS...... hmmmmmmmm.

Is she River Song?

I don't think it was ever implied that the Doctor actually adopted River's regenerations, just that she sacrificed hers to keep him alive in his current form after poisoning him.

That said, it just occurred to me that in The Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor announces that he is regenerating the first time that the astronaut shoots him. He then starts to give off the familiar regeneration glow before he is shot mid-regeneration and killed.

How does this regeneration make sense if the Eleventh Doctor can't regenerate?

SaberBlade
December 28th, 2013, 11:25 AM
That said, it just occurred to me that in The Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor announces that he is regenerating the first time that the astronaut shoots him. He then starts to give off the familiar regeneration glow before he is shot mid-regeneration and killed.

How does this regeneration make sense if the Eleventh Doctor can't regenerate?

There are two things to take into consideration at this point. The first is this took place at the start of series 6, so The Doctor still had a single regeneration left. The concept of The War Doctor and him using a regeneration wouldn't be revealed on screen for another 2 years. If Eccleston had returned for the Anniversary, I doubt there would have been a need for a War Doctor.

Now that we do have The War Doctor and no regenerations left, we have to take the end of series 6 into consideration, when it turns out the whole thing was the Teselecta and The Doctor was just inside. It could easily be explained away that they didn't know how many regenerations The Doctor had left and just copied what they saw when Mels regenerated into River Song in Nazi Germany.

Greenee
December 28th, 2013, 12:36 PM
Moffat just dropped the ball there, which is fine, he's human.

Yes, I think it is that simple


He's allowed to have more than one friend?

Having watched it a second time, I don't think it's quite as bad. Perhaps having lower expectations helps? And the "Raggedy Man, goodbye" bit actually had some emotion the second time round. Definitely worth 1/10 more for the second viewing, maybe even 2. And, weirdly, I can't work out why.



That's what I thought. It even felt mor emoinal. But still not as bad as I hoped. I mean, IF a charakter I like has to die, I DO want to cry my eyes out about it.

A s for the Tasch-River speculation. Afer she turned into a dalek (and back to herself again) the Doctor tells to keep fighting the Dalek inside her and says: You've been fighting the psycopath inside you all your life... Right after they sppoke about the psycopath, who was created to kill the Doctor wich he married aka River. So could it be that she actully is River? Don't realy think that would work, but it nearly sounds like it.

Coco Pops
December 28th, 2013, 06:07 PM
The only thing missing was the Headless Monks, they were a part of this so called church so where did they go?

The Silents and Doctor fighting together? Bzzzzzzzzzzt no makes zero sense given their history

SaberBlade
December 28th, 2013, 06:37 PM
The only thing missing was the Headless Monks, they were a part of this so called church so where did they go?

The Silents and Doctor fighting together? Bzzzzzzzzzzt no makes zero sense given their history

I don't think the Headless Monks were part of the Church. I think Dorian said he learnt about Demon's Run because Kovarians group were working with them.

As for working together. Completely agree, but this is Moffat we're talking about. He doesn't really do big picture, just what seems cool and throws in a shoddy throwaway line a year later that barely explains it.

Quizziard
December 28th, 2013, 10:35 PM
I don't think the Headless Monks were part of the Church. I think Dorian said he learnt about Demon's Run because Kovarians group were working with them.

As for working together. Completely agree, but this is Moffat we're talking about. He doesn't really do big picture, just what seems cool and throws in a shoddy throwaway line a year later that barely explains it.

I don't think it's an unfair "throwaway line": the real churches of the world are splintering, refocusing, and so on all the time. Christianity is (arguably) a splinter from Judaism. It (mostly) became the Roman Catholics. The Protestants split away in the 16/17th century. A couple of hundred years the Methodists splintered. [And so did many, many others, it's just a specific example]. And each will say they are the only right and true way. [Perhaps less so in today's ecumenical days]. Back to the point, a fundamentalist splinter group, the Kovarians, to me is a perfect and fully rounded explanation if dealing with a religion.

knowles2
December 29th, 2013, 12:50 AM
Actually it does make sense that the Doctor is fighting alongside the Silence in the Name of the Doctor.

The Doctor and the Silence wanted essentially the same thing, they wanted to prevent another time war by preventing the Time Lords from reentering the universe at Trenzalore. So why not work together.

They wanted to speed up humanities technological advance so that the Popal Mainframe could play a role in any future time war, which we know they can do as they possessed Tardis type ships and just one of their ships could more than hold their own at Trenzalore against all of the Doctors enemies, it took a huge attack from the Daleks to defeat them, I suspect Moffat still got more of the silence story to tell but I hoping they become the peace keepers of the universe, a silence force that tries to prevent universe wide wars and time wars and are able to hold their own against both the Timelords and the Daleks and prevent the two from fighting.

tomstone
December 29th, 2013, 11:10 AM
This Episode also left me a bit unsatisfied with the Goodbye to the Doctor, but I am not surprised after Day of the Doctor. I did not like that Special either. While it had its good notes it left me wildly unsatisfied as to what I actually expected and the whole Gallifrey thing feels like a Cop-out, but okay. Its Doctor Who and its a fun ride, so whatever they need to keep the show going.

Tasha also struck me as odd. Her whole Interaction with the Doctor made it seem like they where very close including her being able to fly the Tardis. Maybe River was saved by the Church somehow from the Library.

Coco Pops
December 29th, 2013, 03:31 PM
This Episode also left me a bit unsatisfied with the Goodbye to the Doctor, but I am not surprised after Day of the Doctor. I did not like that Special either. While it had its good notes it left me wildly unsatisfied as to what I actually expected and the whole Gallifrey thing feels like a Cop-out, but okay. Its Doctor Who and its a fun ride, so whatever they need to keep the show going.

Tasha also struck me as odd. Her whole Interaction with the Doctor made it seem like they where very close including her being able to fly the Tardis. Maybe River was saved by the Church somehow from the Library.



Maybe the Library became the church?????????

Ian-S
December 30th, 2013, 05:49 AM
The Silents and Doctor fighting together? Bzzzzzzzzzzt no makes zero sense given their history

Enemy of my enemy etc. etc.....

Coco Pops
December 30th, 2013, 06:35 AM
Maybe the Library became the church?????????


I mean the computer holding River Song not the actual library planet

The Flyattractor
December 30th, 2013, 10:52 AM
So that bad guy group that was running the Demons Run/Amy's baby arc with the headless priests was a part of this Church group?

knowles2
December 30th, 2013, 12:50 PM
So that bad guy group that was running the Demons Run/Amy's baby arc with the headless priests was a part of this Church group? Yes, they broke off and formed their own fraction that sort to stopped the Doctor by killing him before he ever arrive at Trenzalore.

Coco Pops
December 30th, 2013, 01:47 PM
Yes, they broke off and formed their own fraction that sort to stopped the Doctor by killing him before he ever arrive at Trenzalore.

So the rest of the Church wasn't his enemy? And the Silents aren't phased over the Doctor getting humanity to kill them?

knowles2
December 30th, 2013, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE]So the rest of the Church wasn't his enemy?
As long as he agree to never speak his name on Trenzalore they could work together.



And the Silents aren't phased over the Doctor getting humanity to kill them?

Humanity created them, they were genetically engineer remember. An yes there probably a paradox in there somewhere, I presume a group of humans who work with the silence or created them were forbidden from viewing the apollo video. Only those who watch that video is hypnotized into killing the silence or may be the scientists and engineers who built the Silence or other relies the subliminal message and removed it from all copies of the moon landings.

The Flyattractor
December 30th, 2013, 02:19 PM
So the rest of the Church wasn't his enemy? And the Silents aren't phased over the Doctor getting humanity to kill them?

Yes. Or at least until Moffat gets that Timey Wimey Itch.....AGAIN!

Coco Pops
December 30th, 2013, 03:22 PM
What about the idea that the Library becomes the church? Or at least the computer does and finds a way to leave the Libaray planet or a mobile extension that becomes the Church?

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 30th, 2013, 03:45 PM
We don't know where this took place in terms of the Silents' history. I'm guessing that the Silents in the beginning of Series 6 were, infact, the descendants of those featured in The Time of the Doctor. With the Crack closed and Trenzalore a smoking ruin, and with the mainframe destroyed by the Daleks, the church may have fallen into disarray. However the Silents who appeared alongside Madame Kovarian in The Wedding of River Song were priests from the rogue faction, whereas those which appeared in the Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon were not. Either those Silents have a completely seperate personal history, or as I said above - they are descendants of those who fought on Trenzalore.

If that is the case then the Silents on Trenzalore would have no problem fighting alongside the Doctor, as they would have zero connection with the Silents who eventually invaded Earth.

That was my interpretation anyway.

Was it ever suggested as to why the church required genetically-engineered life-forms like the Silents? It'd be a good spying too I imagine, or a good way to keep their followers in check.

Quizziard
December 30th, 2013, 08:47 PM
Was it ever suggested as to why the church required genetically-engineered life-forms like the Silents?

For confessions.

Flyboy
December 31st, 2013, 02:34 AM
A s for the Tasch-River speculation. Afer she turned into a dalek (and back to herself again) the Doctor tells to keep fighting the Dalek inside her and says: You've been fighting the psycopath inside you all your life... Right after they sppoke about the psycopath, who was created to kill the Doctor wich he married aka River. So could it be that she actully is River? Don't realy think that would work, but it nearly sounds like it.

River being Tasha works perfectly... right up until the point where you remember the line where she asks the Doctor about his new body, and he replies 'please.... this old thing? I've been rocking it for centuries'. She wouldn't have asked that if she was River.

Coco Pops
December 31st, 2013, 04:01 AM
River being Tasha works perfectly... right up until the point where you remember the line where she asks the Doctor about his new body, and he replies 'please.... this old thing? I've been rocking it for centuries'. She wouldn't have asked that if she was River.

But it still might work if Tasha is River very recently post library? Maybe as I suggested the stored River in the Library computer becomes Tasha and the church and finds a way to get out of the computer from there..

Flyboy
December 31st, 2013, 04:04 AM
But it still might work if Tasha is River very recently post library? Maybe as I suggested the stored River in the Library computer becomes Tasha and the church and finds a way to get out of the computer from there..

Library River has already met Eleven though.

Coco Pops
December 31st, 2013, 04:45 AM
Library River has already met Eleven though.

But maybe this is even before that in her timeline not his? timey wimey and all that jazz

tomstone
December 31st, 2013, 06:55 AM
But maybe this is even before that in her timeline not his? timey wimey and all that jazz

Well, she had a screwdriver in the Library and I thought it was Eleventh. I guess Twelve could have given it to her as well, still it does not quite fit.

iiradned
December 31st, 2013, 09:06 AM
Well, she had a screwdriver in the Library and I thought it was Eleventh. I guess Twelve could have given it to her as well, still it does not quite fit.

It was the 10th Doctor that saw River die in the Library and it was with the 11th Doctor she had her dates and married. It was also the 'murder' 11th Doctor for which she was imprisoned in Stormcage.

In The Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead River said that the last time she was with the Doctor was on their date at the Singing Towers of Darillium and it was after this date that she received her 'upgraded' sonic screwdriver.

In the Series 6 DVD/Blu-ray extra Last Night shows River and the 11th Doctor just before setting off for this date.

iiradned
December 31st, 2013, 09:18 AM
But maybe this is even before that in her timeline not his? timey wimey and all that jazz

River timeline starts with her birth as Melody Pond at Demons Run followed immediately afterwards by Kovarian kidnapping her taking her to Earth to grow up. Next in her timeline is as the little girl in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon which also included her first regeneration. There followed an unknown time which ended when she again regenerated into Mels, Amy's best friend growing up in Leadworth which ended in her regeneration into River Song in Let's Kill Hitler.

In the ending of Closing Time just before River is put in the Apollo spacesuit that emerges from Lake Silencio, Kovarian says that she has always known exactly where Melody/Mels/River was ever since she escaped her first spacesuit in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon.

Quizziard
December 31st, 2013, 12:17 PM
Although I can't find any fault in all the logic, I think I now need a lie-down.... ;)

maneth
January 1st, 2014, 03:00 AM
I liked this one, even if the intersecting timelines have me confused most of the time.

SaberBlade
January 2nd, 2014, 07:09 PM
River timeline starts with her birth as Melody Pond at Demons Run followed immediately afterwards by Kovarian kidnapping her taking her to Earth to grow up. Next in her timeline is as the little girl in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon which also included her first regeneration. There followed an unknown time which ended when she again regenerated into Mels, Amy's best friend growing up in Leadworth which ended in her regeneration into River Song in Let's Kill Hitler.

In the ending of Closing Time just before River is put in the Apollo spacesuit that emerges from Lake Silencio, Kovarian says that she has always known exactly where Melody/Mels/River was ever since she escaped her first spacesuit in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon.

The regeneration of the little girl at the end of Day of the Moon was Melody becoming Mels. We see the young girl (presumably this is the original Melody) regenerate in New York six months after the moon landing. When Mels regenerates into River Song, she says the last time it happened she "ended up a toddler in New York". That would have been January 1970. They just didn't explain how she went from a toddler in New York at the start of the 70s, to a 7+ year old girl in Leadworth sometime during 1996 (although probably more like 12 going by the young Amelia in the scenes since they sort of screwed the years early on).

Realistically and without screwing up any timelines or more "I lie" crap, the only hidden regeneration River could have had was between Melody in 70s New York and Mels in Leadworth during the 90s, but as she said she was in New York when that regeneration happened, still wouldn't explain how she got to England as a toddler, or who was raising her.

Quizziard
January 2nd, 2014, 09:12 PM
I suspect that a toddler who is actually as smart as an adult can get away with an awful lot. People make so many assumptions about kids, especially young kids, it would be easy to do. Especially so far ago (before all the rules got tightened).

Greenee
January 4th, 2014, 01:31 PM
Tasha can't be from a point befor the impossible astronaut or demons run, or any of this story, since they talked about the psycopath wou was created to kill the doctor. So if the is a conection to River, it must be post library, though a regeneration after she died seems as unlikely. She could be from an alternitiv universe of course, but I don't think they open up that stuff again. If they did, anything would be possible, if you could just switch beween dimensions. this would be much worse than the usual timey-wimey stuff. So forget this idea.

Travelfun1017
February 3rd, 2014, 04:03 AM
I will miss Matt Smith

Coco Pops
February 3rd, 2014, 05:15 AM
Here's an interesting discussion from another forum.

Is Tasha Lem River Song Discussion (http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/47139/is-tasha-lem-actually-river-song-includes-references-and-theories)

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 3rd, 2014, 05:26 AM
Question.

The Doctor says that he cannot regenerate anymore and will die on Trenzalore before the Time Lords dose him up with a new regeneration cycle - Yet, in The Day of the Doctor, he met a future incarnation of himself who was reliving past faces (Tom Baker) and went to save Gallifrey with another future incarnation (Capaldi).

...Was the Doctor just being forgetful? I was under the impression that the Eleventh Doctor was the only one who retained his memories from the events of The Day of the Doctor...

Flyboy
February 3rd, 2014, 10:08 AM
Question.

The Doctor says that he cannot regenerate anymore and will die on Trenzalore before the Time Lords dose him up with a new regeneration cycle - Yet, in The Day of the Doctor, he met a future incarnation of himself who was reliving past faces (Tom Baker) and went to save Gallifrey with another future incarnation (Capaldi).

...Was the Doctor just being forgetful? I was under the impression that the Eleventh Doctor was the only one who retained his memories from the events of The Day of the Doctor...

Eleven was the only one to retain his memory of most of the events. Being the 'senior' Doctor, the Curator will remember the meeting in the Gallery, but Eleven will not.

Far more interesting is the ability of Twelve (Capaldi, to clarify) to join the fight to save Gallifrey. Technically this was only made possible by the very fact that they DID save Gallifrey. Wibbly-Wobbly and all that jazz, but it explains why Twelve was the last to join the fight, but realistically he shouldn't have been present when you consider that it's all one great big paradox.

As Eleven thought he would die and wasn't sure if Gallifrey HAD been saved, I can only suggest that the full memory of saving Gallifrey, and indeed, Twelve's presence, was not entirely remembered precisely because of Twelve's presence...

Sealurk
February 3rd, 2014, 10:10 AM
I think the underlying reason - and this is pure speculation - is that the idea that the Doctor in Time of the Doctor is the last incarnation of the original cycle was only decided upon then, and hadn't been properly set up or agreed upon prior to that episode. In Nightmare in Silver the Doctor threatens to regenerate to burn out the Cyberiad (though admittedly this could have been an empty threat, or the Doctor has the capacity to start the regeneration process but would be unable to finish it).

In universe, the reason could be that future incarnations are possible but not guaranteed, and he was in fact meeting a potential incarnation rather than a definite one. It could even be argued that the Doctor wasn't aware or sure that the Tenth Doctor's second regeneration counted and so there was perhaps the possibility of at least one more regeneration until he perhaps determined for certain that he was the last prior to TotD.

It's all very tenuous, and it's one of my problems with ToTD. Still, decent enough episode.

Sealurk
February 3rd, 2014, 10:11 AM
Hmm, apologies for the double post. Probably a time clone, the result of a paradox generated by two versions of myself trying to say different things at the same time resolving itself and causing the forum software to go a bit haywire.

That or I'm just an idiot.

Flyboy
February 3rd, 2014, 10:19 AM
I think the underlying reason - and this is pure speculation - is that the idea that the Doctor in Time of the Doctor is the last incarnation of the original cycle was only decided upon then, and hadn't been properly set up or agreed upon prior to that episode. In Nightmare in Silver the Doctor threatens to regenerate to burn out the Cyberiad (though admittedly this could have been an empty threat, or the Doctor has the capacity to start the regeneration process but would be unable to finish it).

In universe, the reason could be that future incarnations are possible but not guaranteed, and he was in fact meeting a potential incarnation rather than a definite one. It could even be argued that the Doctor wasn't aware or sure that the Tenth Doctor's second regeneration counted and so there was perhaps the possibility of at least one more regeneration until he perhaps determined for certain that he was the last prior to TotD.

It's all very tenuous, and it's one of my problems with ToTD. Still, decent enough episode.

And this is why RTD will always be that ****ing bastard that wasted a God damn ****ing regeneration.

And also why Moffat, god as he is, is a bastard for not getting Eight to be the 'other Doctor' in DotD. As wonderful as Hurt was, I'd have rather have seen Eight pushed to the edge of reason...

The Flyattractor
February 3rd, 2014, 10:55 AM
Question.

The Doctor says that he cannot regenerate anymore and will die on Trenzalore before the Time Lords dose him up with a new regeneration cycle - Yet, in The Day of the Doctor, he met a future incarnation of himself who was reliving past faces (Tom Baker) and went to save Gallifrey with another future incarnation (Capaldi).

...Was the Doctor just being forgetful? I was under the impression that the Eleventh Doctor was the only one who retained his memories from the events of The Day of the Doctor...

I think it probably falls more into the "Moffat writes these big complicated stories, gets stuck on something and then just hits the UNIVERSAL RESET BUTTON" and then just flows from there"

Sealurk
February 3rd, 2014, 10:59 AM
And this is why RTD will always be that ****ing bastard that wasted a God damn ****ing regeneration.

And also why Moffat, god as he is, is a bastard for not getting Eight to be the 'other Doctor' in DotD. As wonderful as Hurt was, I'd have rather have seen Eight pushed to the edge of reason...

Absolutely agreed.

Then again, if Eccleston had agreed to do the special, we'd never have needed the War Doctor and Eleven would still be... well, Twelve. Capaldi would have been the last Doctor of the original cycle, and his search for a way of extending his life or acquiring new regenerations now that he has a purpose and a mission to live for could have been a superb long term arc. Ah well.

Still, in either the Eighth or Ninth Doctor's place we got Hurt's War Doctor who was brilliant, if sorely underused and underdeveloped, showing Moffat's capacity to make the best of a bad situation. I think Eleven actually being the final Doctor was something similar, turning a problem caused by both the lack of Nine or Eight and Ten's extra regeneration into an opportunity to tell a decent story (even if I think the solution was a bit deus machina).

P-90_177
March 11th, 2014, 01:55 AM
Absolutely agreed.

Then again, if Eccleston had agreed to do the special, we'd never have needed the War Doctor and Eleven would still be... well, Twelve. Capaldi would have been the last Doctor of the original cycle, and his search for a way of extending his life or acquiring new regenerations now that he has a purpose and a mission to live for could have been a superb long term arc. Ah well.

Still, in either the Eighth or Ninth Doctor's place we got Hurt's War Doctor who was brilliant, if sorely underused and underdeveloped, showing Moffat's capacity to make the best of a bad situation. I think Eleven actually being the final Doctor was something similar, turning a problem caused by both the lack of Nine or Eight and Ten's extra regeneration into an opportunity to tell a decent story (even if I think the solution was a bit deus machina).

I dunno, you could have had the exact same story with the ninth doctor and the war doctor.
The war doctor wanted to see who he would become, so by all rights that should have included the ninth doctor as well, as the man who would suffer the most from the aftermath.

Mrja84
March 12th, 2014, 11:56 AM
Eleven was the only one to retain his memory of most of the events. Being the 'senior' Doctor, the Curator will remember the meeting in the Gallery, but Eleven will not.

Far more interesting is the ability of Twelve (Capaldi, to clarify) to join the fight to save Gallifrey. Technically this was only made possible by the very fact that they DID save Gallifrey. Wibbly-Wobbly and all that jazz, but it explains why Twelve was the last to join the fight, but realistically he shouldn't have been present when you consider that it's all one great big paradox.

As Eleven thought he would die and wasn't sure if Gallifrey HAD been saved, I can only suggest that the full memory of saving Gallifrey, and indeed, Twelve's presence, was not entirely remembered precisely because of Twelve's presence...

Then explain how Tenth Doctor remembered (as his past incarnation) himself when he had that Time Paradox. If the past versions of the character do not remember meeting their future counterparts, then Moffet just ruined RTD's story.

Flyboy
March 12th, 2014, 01:33 PM
Then explain how Tenth Doctor remembered (as his past incarnation) himself when he had that Time Paradox. If the past versions of the character do not remember meeting their future counterparts, then Moffet just ruined RTD's story.

Not really... remembering as it's happening is not the same as remembering before it's happened.

cosmichobo
March 12th, 2014, 06:45 PM
You don't have to look far to find instances of story X cancelling/not corroborating with story Y in Doctor Who... that's the problem with a long lived tv series headed by different people over different times with different ideas and different scientific advisers...

Mrja84
March 12th, 2014, 07:41 PM
Not really... remembering as it's happening is not the same as remembering before it's happened.

Given everything a Timelord knows, him remembering it as it is happening is like me remembering to check my pocket when leaving the house for my keys. It's situational awareness that helps someone recall memories.

Mind you, I just got into Who with the Ninth Doctor, so I am trying to make sense of all of it. I just prefer some consistent logic when it comes to protocols and paradoxes.

P-90_177
March 20th, 2014, 08:41 PM
Then explain how Tenth Doctor remembered (as his past incarnation) himself when he had that Time Paradox. If the past versions of the character do not remember meeting their future counterparts, then Moffet just ruined RTD's story.

Keeping in mind that this in itself is just a minor five minute story...

The tenth Doctor didn't remember until the situation arose. By this point the timelines between him and his past self were in sync and the tenth Doctor could remember.
The same thing occurs with other cross Doctor stories. The simple reasons behind this is as a protection mechanism for a timelord's own personal time line. If The Doctor could remember all the events where he crossed paths with himself then he could interfere with them and change them in such a way to create a paradox.
This isn't even necessarily something that occurs naturally as a part of temporal science, but as a in built feature in a Timelord physiology like regeneration and a natural ability to have a sixth sense in regards to time.

The general rule of thumb therefore is: A past Doctor will not remember his future self. If two regenerations meet more than once than memories of the original meeting or meetings will resurface as his own timelines sync up.
The eldest version present will retain all memories of the incident but will only gain access to the memories as the event unfolds, starting as a vague feeling of what is going to happen and eventually becoming the full memory of what will happen, like knowing how to avoid the TARDIS explosion, or when to jump through the time vortex to meet his former self.
He may know what to do, but not necessarily what will happen next as a consequence. Instead it's as if he runs on instinct.

Once the event has occurred, all past incarnations will lose their memories once they are outside the presence of eachother and the timelines lose sync.

cosmichobo
May 23rd, 2018, 02:44 AM
Oh, look - there's a special folder for "The Specials"...

I just re-watched Time of the Doctor, thinking perhaps enough time had passed to give it another go. My original ranking was a 3/10... due to various dislikes...

General not-fan of Smith
General not-fan of Moffat
Dislike of the "fairy tale" format used
Dislike of what I perceived as a script that needed a really good re-write...

This time round, I attempted to watch it as being the story in which the Doctor, my Doctor, whom I've been attached to all my life, believed well and truly that he was going to die there at Trenzalore. I watched it as the story that brought some closure to a few elements from the show's recent past - some done well, some not so much. Explaining that the War Doctor and Tennant2 did count toward the regeneration cycle was something I'd not expected to happen, so I was glad it was recognised, though think they missed the opportunity to bring the character of the Valeyard back... The 1 liner explanation for the whole crack in time that plagued 11's first season felt - pointless.

All that aside... I just never felt like the story gave me something to sink my teeth into. It didn't take me on a journey, it just gave me the edited highlights. And as such I think it was a shame to go out like that.

In comparison... what was originally to be Capaldi's finale, seeing him again protecting a small community from incomprehensible odds... did a much better job, giving us a tad more to nibble on, characters with just a vague bit more meat on their bones. (I do say a vague bit more! Not a whole lot... but enough.)

Overall, I have to say that whilst Moffat can write great stories (Girl in the Fireplace still a Top 5 for me, probably), his 2 regen stories left me mostly wanting for something more.