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GateWorld
October 14th, 2013, 11:41 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/the-walking-dead/s4/indifference/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/indifference-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">THE WALKING DEAD - SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/the-walking-dead/s4/indifference/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">INDIFFERENCE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 404</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Rick and Carol go in search of food, where they encounter a young couple who are eager to join the group. Meanwhile, Darrell's group must find a new car in order to complete their vital mission.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/the-walking-dead/s4/indifference/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Baron Of Hell
November 4th, 2013, 01:40 AM
I liked this episode. I'm not sure why it is titled Indifference. I would have went with Letting Go.

Interesting how cold as ice Carol was. Don't call me mother you little brat or I'll stab you like Karen. If that kid wasn't behind glass Carol would have punched her.

Ty dropped a few points with his devil may care attitude. Kill yourself when you get back to the prison but don't risk everyone else's lives. Just like Moses said "Let my Zombies go".

Bob and Daryl were about to make out. Man that would have been so hot. F this Daryl and Carol or Daryl and Michonne crap. Bob and Daryl all the way to the end of world. Going go write a fan fic of it right now.

The odd Bob moment was that you see him grabbing a few drugs but latter they say he didn't have any. Hey and in the old days whiskey was the only pain killer around. So yeah.

To bad about the hippies. Survive for a few years only to die as soon as Rick and Carol show up. They should have never open that door. And Carol didn't even care. All she cared about was Rick's watch.

fems
November 4th, 2013, 03:28 AM
I think the episode's title refers to Carol's attitude in this episode, kinda like you described in your post Baron of Hell! :P

I'm still not entirely convinced Carol really did do it, considering how sloppy the killings had been (or at least the bloody evidence). It's possible she's covering for someone else, perhaps Lizzie or even Carl. In particular Lizzie, who seems to want to prove she isn't "weak" and was angry at the others (including Karen and David) for killing her pet walker - and she's now (claiming to be) infected too! Plus, the way the scenes where Rick was trying to conjure up a reconstruction of the killings and Carol was talking to Lizzie were intertwined made me suspicious too.

However, even if she did do it I don't think she was totally wrong. Yes, Karen and David (whose name I didn't learn until after he was dead) were still alive when she killed them, but they were suffering and slowly drowning in their own blood. From Carol's explanation it sounded like they were already at that stage, which could explain how she could have killed them so easily (you'd think one of them would cry out or fight her after she killed the other, unless they were incapable). By keeping them alive they were only prolonging the inevitable because it was clear they wouldn't survive the night (going on what happened with the other infected folks) yet they still posed a risk to the rest of the group. Even if they were supposedly quarantined - the group's concept of quarantine is laughable - people could easily visit them and get infected, since they have no idea how the disease is transmitted and we know the infected folks will start coughing up blood which makes the risk of infection higher. If I recall correctly, there were only bars separating them from whoever was in the corridor, so basically there was no protection at all except distance. Also, someone would have to check on them and feed them etc, thereby exposing at least one other person to them who could infect whoever they got into contact with afterwards. Not to mention that if they died and turned they could surprise their caretaker(s) and bite them, causing another outbreak of walkers and possibly the disease too.

Killing them seemed more like euthanizing to me, or a mercy killing rather than premeditated murder. There was no way they could survive the disease since it struck and killed so quickly once you showed symptoms, but by disposing of them the risk to the group could be limited if not entirely eliminated (although we later learned it didn't work). Burning them also makes sense considering how it's often used to get rid of infected bodies/things. I still don't know why they go through all the effort of burying their dead aside from it seeming more humane, seeing as how their bodies most likely will contaminate the soil (especially if they died of the disease), possibly their crops and probably attract walkers who seem to have a good nose for bodies, dead or alive.

Anyway, I think Rick was in the wrong for sending her away. It seemed like he'd planned it from the start by taking her with him on the run and her (completely understandable) reaction to those two idiots from the bathroom getting killed combined with their little talk over plucking tomatoes seemed to cement his decision. He did go to that abandoned car (from the idiots?) right away, after all. Tyreese is a moron, who seems to be kindhearted until he feels threatened or is upset and then he goes all hulk and stupid, nearly killing innocent bystanders/people trying to help him or letting his group (like when he wouldn't let go off the walker in this ep) get killed.

In Rick's mind his actions are justified because if Carol would come back to the prison Tyreese would kill her - and apparently that would be fine with him, even though it's more of a (pointless) murder than Carol killing two infected people who endangered the health of the entire group. How about exercising some restraint or, better yet, not tell Tyreese and/or blame one of the dead infected people (they seemed like they were close to dying last time we saw them and in next week's preview) for the killings? After all, with Doctor S sick, Herschel (sp?) among the infected and old/frail and Bob being a pretty much useless alcoholic, Carol is the only healthy person with actual medical experience/knowledge! But no, better to send her away to fend for herself without letting her say goodbye to at least the girls and Daryl!

Never mind the fact that Rick's own son has killed a young teenager who was lowering his weapon to surrender himself in cold blood and then lied about it! If Herschel hadn't been there then Rick would have accepted Carl's explanation about killing a threat, rather than murdering someone who was surrendering because they might endanger the group (well, Carl was really talking about just himself, Judith, Herschel, Beth and Rick, IIRC). But he never told anyone and Carl got his gun back after a few weeks, without any kind of punishment/retribution.

Rick is such a hypocrite who, by the way, has killed far more (living) people than Carol! Or, you know, left someone chained on a roof, with no food/water, exposed to the elements and a crazy herd of walkers nearby... And his talk about not trusting Carol anymore, especially around his kids is laughable considering he doesn't even seem to care about Judith (Beth is more of a parent to her) other than using her and Carl as an excuse/justification and Carl has sociopathic tendencies (Lori appeared to be unconscious rather than dead when he shot her)! Not to mention the fact that Carol trusted Rick, as the group's leader, with Sophia and he abandoned her which led to her being eaten by walkers! After which trusty Carol continued to take care of Rick's son and even studied how to do a c-section on Lori to save her and Judith!

Sorry, but I was really put off by Rick's actions and his actions have annoyed me for quite a while. At the very least he could have gone back to the prison (either with Carol or letting her stay at the safest location around) to tell everyone of her actions so they could vote about her fate.

I also didn't really get the two red herrings introduced except maybe to show how indifferent Carol was to their fate, but they were strangers to them - and stupid to boot! The girl managed to get her leg torn off (so ridiculous, by the way), bitten/eaten and killed without getting one shot off? And if the guy is also dead he's pretty stupid too - if he's just late he's definitely an idiot. So, really, why should Carol get all upset over their deaths other than them having cost them time (the introducing, medical attention and waiting around), a watch, two guns and precious bullets? Rick really had no right to judge her reaction or lack thereof, especially in light of him ignoring that hitchhiker - twice! - a few episodes ago! The idiots wanted to help and it made sense, except for the two of them going off solo perhaps since Carol and Rick did stay together. Besides, with their lack of action they probably would have gotten themselves killed even if they had stayed in the house like Rick wanted - instead, they're still dead and Rick lost them two guns+bullets.

I don't really care about Bob (whose name doesn't fit him and I keep forgetting it) and almost expected Daryl or crazy Tyreese to throw him off the walkway and into the herd of walkers. Still, he's got medical experience so I guess they should keep him around. I also don't really agree with their judgmental attitudes about his alcoholism (except for him reaching for his gun over half a bottle of booze) since it was in his pack along with some other medicine/equipment we saw him take (even though they seemed to forget about that) and who knows what else, and no one really got hurt. If he wants to drink himself to sleep at night then who are they judge? After all, the original group got downright wasted/drunk when they reached the CDC, some even going as far as showering with a bottle of booze! No one thought that was weird. Well, not anyone in the show, anyway.

What did have me nearly banging my head against the wall was that, once again, they only pick up the supplies on the list! They're surrounded with cabinets with medicine and they only take what they need at this moment! Granted, most of the meds are for animals but a lot of them can probably be used (perhaps with some changes) for humans, or at least prevent another outbreak of a disease through the pigs or whatever kind of animals they're keeping at the prison! It was just so stupid, and it's not the first time! They usually have large bags and a car or two for each run, so why not load everything you find into it before you have to go back in two weeks' time because you're suddenly in need of something you saw in that store on your original run? The same goes for Carol and Rick, by the way. Why not take some cleaning supplies and hygiene products (and maybe some clothes and books) from the houses they were ransacking when they have two perfectly fine cars they can easily get to, since the walkers are only interested in useless red herrings?

Anyway, in spite of the above I did enjoy the episode and I hope we'll see more of Carol since she has slowly become one of my favorite characters. Who knows, she might even make it back to the prison [to get the girls] before Rick does, or perhaps she'll run into Daryl and the others, or joins a different group like what happened with Andrea.

Gen. Chris
November 4th, 2013, 09:17 AM
Holy crap, Fems. Essays are not necessary on Gateworld :P

fems
November 4th, 2013, 09:23 AM
Holy crap, Fems. Essays are not necessary on Gateworld :P

Sorry! :P Feel free to ignore it, I get carried away sometimes. :o

magictrick
November 4th, 2013, 12:27 PM
Looking forward to seeing Daryl's reaction when he finds out. Something tells me he won't be too happy.

I'm confident we are going to see Carol again, most likely later on this season. Usually when characters are abandoned they turn up again (i.e. Morgan). Plus the actress' name was finally added to the opening credits, that's gotta count for something.

VampyreWraith
November 4th, 2013, 01:21 PM
I thought it was a pretty good episode. To me, Carol's interactions had a creepy feel to them this episode. I don't know exactly what it was about them. Maybe it was that she seemed so cold and indifferent. Even that scene with that girl towards the beginning had a kind of creepy vibe too it; I almost expected for them to reveal that the kid had helped her kill the sick people.

I can kind of understand where Carol was coming from when she killed those people. They were very sick and suffering, and likely may have died and turned; possibly infecting more people along the way. The group had settled in, made themselves a home, and things were ok for a while; she seemed desperate to protect that. Trying to stop the virus from spreading by killing people may have been a way to kind of maintain a sense of control over her environment; just like teaching the kids to defend themselves against Walkers was. She was taking extreme measures to try to prevent more bad things from happening. I felt bad for her, but I was also weirded out by her. I half expected her to try and kill Rick or the people in the house because she may have thought that they were sick or bitten lol.

I can see where Rick was coming from too. I don't think I could trust Carol either. This was different than the incident with Carl because the people she killed trusted her, their loved ones trusted her; she was their friend.. She was supposed to be helping them try to get through their sickness; not drive a knife into their backs, drag their bodies outside and burn them. With that said, I don't think Rick should have taken it upon himself to send Carol away. I think he should have brought her back to the prison and told the others what happened. He should have let the group decide what to do with Carol; whether she should have to face consequences for her actions, and what those consequences should have been. Tyreese may well have killed her(or at least tried to kill her), but Rick shouldn't have made a unilateral decision like that.

Since they didn't kill Carol though, we'll probably see her again at some point.

Tyreese needs to find a way to deal with his issues that doesn't involve putting others in danger.

The guy with the drinking problem(I can't remember his name lol) seems interesting. I kind of like him. I thought he put some pills into his bag too, I know he took some off a shelf; maybe they fell out of the bag when the walkers grabbed it.

I'm looking forward to next week's episode.

mr_kennedy
November 4th, 2013, 03:23 PM
It would be cool if Carol met up with Morgan, or tracked down the Governor or something i've never really been a Carol fan or anything but her character just got interesting after this last episode :) she ain't gonna die

Also Back at the prison they showed Herschel treating Glenn :confused: :confused: i thought i heard in previous episode that he beat it or something? or was that Daryl?

Speaking of Daryl i wonder how he will take the fact that Rick exiled Carol from the group? didnt i read that a member of the group will Betray Rick or something? i wonder if it's leading up to this?

squirrely1
November 4th, 2013, 05:47 PM
WOW where to begin.....

Oh and I applaud all the great reviews and discussion here and fems.....that was great.... everyone needs to get these things off their chest like that ;) And I agree with most everything you said.

1. I agree that their isolation is a bit silly. I mean what happens when people die and turn? Do they have a plan for that?

2. I don't like what Carol did...and fems may be onto something about Carol possibly covering up the crime for someone else :S but I feel like Carol is in a place where Rick needs to be and that is making hard decisions. I think it possibly was a mercy killing. They know the fate of the virus....and if they were just going to suffocate in their own blood over night then why not ease their suffering. Maybe it was a tad premature, but still they had just had a major walker outbreak inside the prison and she was trying in her best way to contain the situation. And she didn't try and lie her way out of it either.

3. I think Rick was wrong in just exiling her from the group. I couldn't believe he'd do that. That completely freaked me out. I don't think it's his place to make such a decision and I'm with fems that he should've taken her back to the group and let them decide. So what about Tyreese possibly killing her?....Carol even said she wasn't afraid of him.

4.Now I think once Daryl finds out he's going to go batshyte crazy and he'll run off to go look for her :eek: And I think Michonne will go with him.

5. The two idiots in the house didn't really bother me all that much, they needed some "red shirts" for this ep and they provided some convenient plot devices for Rick to question his decisions and for Carol to talk to Rick about his leadership skills. I think this does all boil down to the fact that Carol may be threatening to Rick at this point, like he maybe can't control her any longer and he feels like she could become a loose cannon. Like take from last week the bit about the water and she refused to do what he said about it. He sees Carol not respecting his authority and that makes him uneasy, nervous and just down right terrified possibly. :S So he more or less took the easy way out here by putting her out. I can't see how he can live with himself after that :(

6. As for Bob and his drinking problem... I'm with fems on this too. Who cares if the guy has an issue? I mean as long as he is not putting the group at risk, if he wants to get blind stinking drunk...it's on him. He can't run very fast from walkers then....so it's his own life at risk there IMO. But yeah... I agree with Baron of Hell...that Daryl/Bob scene was just Whoa HOT!! :D

And regardless of the issues I had with the ep and Rick's decision... I still loved it and it really got me thinking.

Can't wait for next week. I just hope it's not a long time before we see Carol again. I mean honestly she's one of the show's only strong woman now.. Maggie is becoming a sort of blubbering idiot. Faith ?? (Is that her name...Maggie's Sister) she is closed off and in denial half the time. I mean who does that leave really? :S they just cannot get rid of Carol. :(

TheRandomOne
November 4th, 2013, 06:43 PM
Rick is Batman

fems
November 5th, 2013, 02:45 AM
1. I agree that their isolation is a bit silly. I mean what happens when people die and turn? Do they have a plan for that?

Yeah, at least Karen and David were locked in separate cells, IIRC. The scenes we've seen from the other cell block holding all the sick people just shows open doors and everyone roaming around freely in that block. So, if one of them kicks it and turns, they're all as good as dead since the exit door has been locked. I guess they could lock themselves in their cells but who's to say when other people will come to check on the sick folks now that Herschel (sp?) is going around taking care of everyone? They might starve or die of dehydration (assuming they have fevers and lose a lot of fluids, without any drinking water available) before someone realizes one of the sick people died and ate everyone that hadn't locked themselves away... :confused:




3. I think Rick was wrong in just exiling her from the group. I couldn't believe he'd do that. That completely freaked me out. I don't think it's his place to make such a decision and I'm with fems that he should've taken her back to the group and let them decide. So what about Tyreese possibly killing her?....Carol even said she wasn't afraid of him.

It's especially ironic with Rick basically telling Carol that she had no right to make a unilateral decision about what to do with Karen and David without consulting/asking permission of the counsel. Then, he goes and makes a unilateral decision about banishing her! He's not even part of the council, unlike Carol, IIRC.



5. The two idiots in the house didn't really bother me all that much, they needed some "red shirts" for this ep and they provided some convenient plot devices for Rick to question his decisions and for Carol to talk to Rick about his leadership skills. I think this does all boil down to the fact that Carol may be threatening to Rick at this point, like he maybe can't control her any longer and he feels like she could become a loose cannon. Like take from last week the bit about the water and she refused to do what he said about it. He sees Carol not respecting his authority and that makes him uneasy, nervous and just down right terrified possibly. :S So he more or less took the easy way out here by putting her out. I can't see how he can live with himself after that :(

Right, I forgot to mention that in my previous post. I couldn't help but wonder if Rick really thought she was a loose cannon or if it was simply because she stood up to him and made decisions on her own? After all, in the previous episode Carol was right about the water: there was no telling if there was going to be a "tomorrow" and that it would be best to get the water now, especially in light of her knocking over the other reservoir.

Anyway, I just got the nagging feeling that Rick didn't like her challenging his supposed authority. Carol made a good point about him wanting to be "just a farmer", because he basically did nothing at all since the season finale other than farming and totally stopped being a leader. Instead, the others formed the council and started making decisions while he was planting crops and spending time with his psycho son (I don't think he bothered seeing Judith).

There have been numerous occasions throughout the series where Rick claimed he didn't want to be the leader but as soon as someone else came up with an idea (especially in the beginning) he shot it down and started calling the shots, saying the other was wrong. Then, he became their actual leader and made crappy decisions, followed by him outlawing democracy and basically becoming a ricktator, to him deciding a democracy was best because he couldn't cope making the hard calls and ending up being useless while the council did everything... He seemed kinda surprised and upset about Carol suddenly starting to make decisions (including the tough calls), as if she was undermining him even though he hasn't really been a leader.




Can't wait for next week. I just hope it's not a long time before we see Carol again. I mean honestly she's one of the show's only strong woman now.. Maggie is becoming a sort of blubbering idiot. Faith ?? (Is that her name...Maggie's Sister) she is closed off and in denial half the time. I mean who does that leave really? :S they just cannot get rid of Carol. :(

Isn't her name Beth? :P


By the way, I'm still suspicious about the cleanly severed leg from the idiot girl. I don't know if that's just an error from the props department or if it's supposed to be a clue, but regardless I think it's ridiculous that it was just lying there (no pooled blood either) while the walkers were munching on the rest of her body.

squirrely1
November 5th, 2013, 06:29 PM
Oh yeah fems....her name is Beth....whoops :P My memory is really horrible sometimes :P

I think with Rick and Carol part of it does come down to leadership and who's calling the shots here.
There are still a few things that are nagging at me after this ep though.
1. Why didn't Carol fight more for her right to go back to camp. That seemed really odd to me. Even if she is so strong now with her newly found self esteem and leadership skills... I mean WTF? What are her chances really...alone and with limited supplies?? I'm skeptical of that as well. It just seemed like she laid down too easily on that one....almost out of character for her that she didn't fight him about her right to stay and his right to make that unilateral decision without the council. :S

2. The bit with Lori and the pancake story. Seriously...how can anyone mess up pancakes? :S Aside from burning them...but that seemed really silly...that whole story and what did that mean really? She wanted to have a family who had Pancakes on Sunday.... I'm thinking they were trying to have some deep meaning in that but again what does that mean.

3. The two watches? What does giving them away really mean? That time has really no value now? They were getting rid of all traces of their past? what?

Sometimes I think the writers are trying too hard to make this show too deep and it sort of becomes distracting. :S

as for the severed leg. Maybe the walkers ripped it off after she was dead....and carried it away and dropped it by the gate? That is the only thing I can think of.

LoneStar1836
November 6th, 2013, 05:52 PM
3. The two watches? What does giving them away really mean? That time has really no value now? They were getting rid of all traces of their past? what?

Sometimes I think the writers are trying too hard to make this show too deep and it sort of becomes distracting. :S
Well in regards to Carol's watch I saw it as her freeing herself of the last thing connected to her old self/life. Not really that deep as it went along with her dialogue throughout the episode of how she has had to change. Now Rick giving away his watch, not too sure much could be read into that other than the fact that he needed to loose it in order to carry out the last scene of Carol handing over her's. Her's was the symbolic watch, imo, not so much his.

Anyway I was like WTF as well with Rick kicking Carol from the group. Didn't have anything to do with how Tyreese would react. Yeah he'd be mad, but he's not a killer. I just don't think Rick liked the fact that she stepped up and tried to do what she thought was best for the group. Rick had abandoned his leadership responsibility and others like Carol had to fill the void. It was an ugly, unilateral decision, but the pretty world they thought they had created was just an illusion, and Rick needs to get back to reality.

Frankly I don't quite like how this episode was written. I honestly don't think Rick would have tossed Carol like that. She has been with him/the group all this time. I can see him having some apprehension about what she did, but to make the remark that he'd never trust her with his kids again. :S She didn't kill those people in a vain attempt to protect just herself. Why he would think she'd do something that would intentionally harm his kids is baffling.

And then the other off thing about this episode was Daryl getting up in Bob's face about the liquor. Yeah he didn't want to let go (but I do recall him putting meds/supplies in his bag so that bit of writing didn't match with what was filmed), but if you want to be pissed at someone for putting the group at risk then look no farther than Tyreese and his deathwish. (Writers need to improve how they are writing his character because I'm not exactly liking him whereas I like the Tyreese from the comics.)

Bob drinking back at the prison endangers no one. One half empty bottle is not going to last long. And if it is supposed to be because he's mad about what happened to Zak at the BigSpot, that was an accident and mistake that anyone could have made. I just don't think Daryl would have been that aggressive with him.





I don't really care about Bob (whose name doesn't fit him and I keep forgetting it) and almost expected Daryl or crazy Tyreese to throw him off the walkway and into the herd of walkers. Still, he's got medical experience so I guess they should keep him around. I also don't really agree with their judgmental attitudes about his alcoholism (except for him reaching for his gun over half a bottle of booze) since it was in his pack along with some other medicine/equipment we saw him take (even though they seemed to forget about that) and who knows what else, and no one really got hurt. If he wants to drink himself to sleep at night then who are they judge? After all, the original group got downright wasted/drunk when they reached the CDC, some even going as far as showering with a bottle of booze! No one thought that was weird. Well, not anyone in the show, anyway.lol. His name is Bob in the comics. Though he's an older white guy and has only a very small part in the story which doesn't (or at this point doesn't) correspond with his character on the show other than the fact that he is an army medic and alcoholic. Spoiler from the comics and some speculationIn the comics he is a resident of Woodbury who is tasked with saving the Governor's life. So on the show he's obviously not from Woodbury considering people from Woodbury would have recognized him. Only nefarious thing that might arise is he could have hooked up with the Governor after he fled at the end of last season and was sent in as a spy, but I'm thinking no. I first thought he was the one feeding the walkers the rats on purpose so they would build up around the fence.


What did have me nearly banging my head against the wall was that, once again, they only pick up the supplies on the list! They're surrounded with cabinets with medicine and they only take what they need at this moment! Granted, most of the meds are for animals but a lot of them can probably be used (perhaps with some changes) for humans, or at least prevent another outbreak of a disease through the pigs or whatever kind of animals they're keeping at the prison! It was just so stupid, and it's not the first time! They usually have large bags and a car or two for each run, so why not load everything you find into it before you have to go back in two weeks' time because you're suddenly in need of something you saw in that store on your original run? The same goes for Carol and Rick, by the way. Why not take some cleaning supplies and hygiene products (and maybe some clothes and books) from the houses they were ransacking when they have two perfectly fine cars they can easily get to, since the walkers are only interested in useless red herrings?I'm right there with you. Those bags should be brimming with meds and supplies. I don't care if it was on the list or not. All those meds! Take everything you could carry after finding what you came for and sort it out later.

You mentioned the conversation Rick and Carol had while picking tomatoes. While they were talking, all I could think was why are you leaving the green tomatoes behind!? :D They do ripen.... There were some big green tomatoes on those plants. Oh and I'm with you, that Rick probably had already made up his mind to force Carol to stay behind when he took her with him, which again is something I don't think the Rick I like would have done.

Rosehawk
November 6th, 2013, 08:25 PM
I don't think that when Rick had asked Carol to join him that he had already made up his mind to tell her to leave the group. I think that happen as the day activities progressed. He was shocked that Carol could kill those two and I think he was still processing everything and that he wanted to talk more with Carol, spend some time away from everyone to try and understand this person that he thought he knew but now realized that he didn't.

I think what scared Rick was that he realized that Carol had lost her compassion, that she had become hard and emotionless. While Rick struggled with the things he did, Carol no longer had that struggle. Many times on TV this is used to show that one has lost their humanity which is what maybe the writers were trying to portray.

Rick killing Shane was not the same as Carol killing Karen and David. Rick was in the fight for his life with Shane when he killed Shane and he struggled emotionally with that. While Karen and David were a risk to everyone, they were kept isolated, the risk was not an immediate threat. Carol killed them for the good of the group - not a bad thing in itself, however Carol was practical about it, cold, showed no remorse. She didn't even seem to care when Rick said that Tyreese would kill her. She just accepted it as a fact.

I think that's what scared Rick more than anything else.

And Carol leaving...I think she also knew it was time or else she would have followed Rick back...in reality Rick can't really stop her. She can show back up at the prison anytime and who knows she might; however wasn't she the first one who drove off? She didn't stand around watching Rick drive off. She was ready to accept what Rick was saying at the moment.

I do not think we have seen the last of Carol.

fems
November 7th, 2013, 01:11 AM
I don't think that when Rick had asked Carol to join him that he had already made up his mind to tell her to leave the group. I think that happen as the day activities progressed. He was shocked that Carol could kill those two and I think he was still processing everything and that he wanted to talk more with Carol, spend some time away from everyone to try and understand this person that he thought he knew but now realized that he didn't.

I think what scared Rick was that he realized that Carol had lost her compassion, that she had become hard and emotionless. While Rick struggled with the things he did, Carol no longer had that struggle. Many times on TV this is used to show that one has lost their humanity which is what maybe the writers were trying to portray.



Except Rick already seemed to have Carol's things packed up in the car. Remember him looking at her knife set while he was getting ready to leave? It showed us a knife was missing, the one she had given to Lizzie (who I still don't trust) and why would have placed it in the car for their run unless he was planning to send her away from the start? It's not as if the knives would be useful in a fight since the set was packed in the back, rolled up and with the rest of their supplies; not something you can easily grab when you get overrun by walkers. Plus, Carol didn't seem to think there were things she would be missing either when he sent her away. Knowing how big Rick is supposed to be about family and with him urging her to talk about Sophia in the episode, you would think he'd at least give Carol the chance to go back to prison to retrieve some pictures (assuming she had any) of her before banishing her. But he'd probably packed those and other personal belongings with her knife set.

I'm not disagreeing with you about how TPTB intended to show Carol's indifference and lack of sympathy (and patience) for the presumably dead hippies or even David and Karen, but it was written and executed poorly. Are we supposed to forget that Rick was the one who cuffed Merle to a roof and left him there to die, or how he recently ignored a backpacker walking along the road screaming for help - twice?! Rick didn't even flinch when they drove past the walkers munching on the guy on their way back to prison. How is that any different from Carol's reaction or lack thereof to the two dead hippy idiots?

I also have to say that Carol's killing might have made more impact if we'd actually gotten to know Karen and David. I don't even know what David looked like or what his name was prior to him getting killed. Karen's name is something I've heard before (back with Andrea at Woodbury, unless it's a different Karen) but there wasn't any real connection with her either, aside from the brief scene between her and Tyreese. I don't care much for Tyreese, especially not in light of his stupidity with the two recent walker run-ins, so I care even less about Karen and their supposed romance.

Oh and I disagree about Karen and David being kept isolated: Tyreese just walked in there to bring Karen flowers or something, without thinking about his health or how he might get the disease and spread it to the rest of the community. Someone had to bring the duo food and water too (who could also spread the disease) and if that wasn't Carol, then she got in there relatively easy to kill them. Unless, of course, Carol didn't kill them and is covering for Lizzie or Carl (the bloody handprint was small and very low on the door) who then also got in there, atop of Carol and Tyreese, without anyone really noticing.

Like I said before: their idea of quarantine is ridiculous :P I'm surprised they've all lasted this long! :P

Rosehawk
November 7th, 2013, 06:56 PM
Except Rick already seemed to have Carol's things packed up in the car. Remember him looking at her knife set while he was getting ready to leave? It showed us a knife was missing, the one she had given to Lizzie (who I still don't trust) and why would have placed it in the car for their run unless he was planning to send her away from the start? It's not as if the knives would be useful in a fight since the set was packed in the back, rolled up and with the rest of their supplies; not something you can easily grab when you get overrun by walkers. Plus, Carol didn't seem to think there were things she would be missing either when he sent her away. Knowing how big Rick is supposed to be about family and with him urging her to talk about Sophia in the episode, you would think he'd at least give Carol the chance to go back to prison to retrieve some pictures (assuming she had any) of her before banishing her. But he'd probably packed those and other personal belongings with her knife set.
Packing the knives doesn't mean he was planning on Carol leaving, though I do agree he was probably considering it. I would think that maybe Rick brought the knives to confront Carol with if he needed to use them in the conversation. The knives would have been more evidence of what Carol did. If Rick was really planning on banishing Carol, he is the type of guy who would have packed up all her special mementos and have them ready for her to take with her. If Carol really wanted something, she would have told Rick but Carol is at the point where she doesn't seem to have or want emotional attachments to anything/anyone. That’s why she told the one girl to not call her Mom. Calling someone Mom is creating an emotional attachment to that person. I also think the writers put this line into the show because later Rick talks about his kids in the prison – so they introduced the parent connection and shows that Carol lost hers but Rick still had his.

I still think that Rick wanted to talk with Carol. If Carol would have shown some sense of remorse, I think Rick may have had a change of heart.


I'm not disagreeing with you about how TPTB intended to show Carol's indifference and lack of sympathy (and patience) for the presumably dead hippies or even David and Karen, but it was written and executed poorly. Are we supposed to forget that Rick was the one who cuffed Merle to a roof and left him there to die, or how he recently ignored a backpacker walking along the road screaming for help - twice?! Rick didn't even flinch when they drove past the walkers munching on the guy on their way back to prison. How is that any different from Carol's reaction or lack thereof to the two dead hippy idiots?
I think this was brilliantly written and well executed. Human emotions are not always practical or rational from person to person. One of the things I really enjoy with The Walking Dead is the emotional journey that all the characters are taking and it’s not going to be the same journey for each character even if in similar circumstances.

I don’t think we are supposed to forget anything.

Rick may have cuffed Merle, however they did go back for him. And if I recall there were other circumstance with why he left Merle cuffed, though at the moment I don’t recall all the details. Yes, Rick ignored the backpacker on the side of the road; everyone in the car ignored the backpacker. What was different is that no one knew the backpacker, everyone knew David and Karen so from an emotional standpoint it was easier to ignore someone who they didn’t know versus people that had been a part of their everyday lives. I would think it would be much much harder to kill someone you knew versus letting someone you didn’t know die.

I also have to say that Carol's killing might have made more impact if we'd actually gotten to know Karen and David. I don't even know what David looked like or what his name was prior to him getting killed. Karen's name is something I've heard before (back with Andrea at Woodbury, unless it's a different Karen) but there wasn't any real connection with her either, aside from the brief scene between her and Tyreese. I don't care much for Tyreese, especially not in light of his stupidity with the two recent walker run-ins, so I care even less about Karen and their supposed romance.
I am fine that we didn't get to know Karen and David. Their deaths were not the focus of the storyline, Carol and her personal emotional journey was. Their deaths showed just how far Carol was willing to go, how emotionless she had become. How detached she was from everyone. These were people that she had been living with for a few months and she could just go and kill them and then not feel anything for what she had done. If she felt she had to kill them to protect the community, she should have still had some sense of remorse but she didn’t have any – that’s what scared Rick.

Tyreese is in mourning. He’s not thinking. He’s probably tired of all the pain and loss and his mind is messing with him. Part of him may be thinking about just dying but then this other part, the part that wants to survive kicks in and wakes him up. He’s just been lucky that he hasn’t been bit in the process. And yeah, I didn’t like that what Tyreese did because you are right, it was stupid and he doesn’t seem like a stupid man. People do do stupid things sometimes when they are in mourning because they are not thinking clearly.



Oh and I disagree about Karen and David being kept isolated: Tyreese just walked in there to bring Karen flowers or something, without thinking about his health or how he might get the disease and spread it to the rest of the community. Someone had to bring the duo food and water too (who could also spread the disease) and if that wasn't Carol, then she got in there relatively easy to kill them. Unless, of course, Carol didn't kill them and is covering for Lizzie or Carl (the bloody handprint was small and very low on the door) who then also got in there, atop of Carol and Tyreese, without anyone really noticing.
I meant more that Karen and David were staying in their own prison cells rather than continue to wander around. I don’t think they realized until the young boy died just how quickly the illness spread from person to person. And given those close quarters I would suspect everyone had already been exposed, it was now a matter of who would and who wouldn’t get it.

It’s possible that Carol had Lizzie help her kill them. She was teaching the kids how to use knives and kill so it’s possible that she could have taken Lizzie with her to show Lizzie how to kill someone.

Like I said before: their idea of quarantine is ridiculous :P I'm surprised they've all lasted this long! :P
I would agree, what we saw on TV didn’t really show much in the way of a good strong quarantine.

squirrely1
November 8th, 2013, 06:07 PM
WOW so much great discussion and I don't really have to time to quote and respond to sections of quotes but kudos to you all for doing that cuz it's a blast to read that way.

But....about Rick knowing ahead of time he was going to ban Carol. I tend to agree that maybe Rick did start out thinking he MAY do that or he needed to hear Carol out to get more information from her BEFORE he made his final decision, but I think he must have prepared otherwise in thinking about it...she'd need her clothes and her coat and at least her basic backpack and supplies she had stowed away in her personal stash of stuff....so really the more I'm thinking aobut this ....the more ridiculous it was that he didn't allow her to go back and at least gather her supplies....so it was almost like Rick was afraid that the group would try and over turn his decision and allow her to stay in the group. Again I think this is purely a stand off between Rick and Carol regarding leadership/power/decision making and bucking authority. So I think Rick may have already packed up some of Carol's things in advance, becasue what person regardless of how emotionally detached they are to their things or people would just say oh yeah no problem I'll just take these few things I scraped together right here and make a go on my own :eek: I mean it makes no sense.

I'm leaning more with Lone Star up there that this writing is out of Character no only for Rick but for Carol as well. I think Carol would've fought more to stay with the group. Because by her just laying down and allowing Rick to kick her to the curb that again goes against the years of abuse and bullying she took from her husband. So if Carol was indeed a changed woman she would've said HELL NO! To Rick and would've demanded that she go back before the other council members to help decide. Or at least until they get through the immediate crisis and then deal with the matter. I mean she is one very strong ...obviously not ill from the virus yet....so she could help with things back at the prison.

Again I don't think Carol wouldn't intentionally harm the kids so for Rick to worry about her harming his kids that really was out of Character as well. True Maybe Rick is scared of her ...but GEESUS he should be more scared of his own son Carl who shot Lori dead during childbirth and really didn't seem to show alot of remorse for that honestly not like she should've. Rick taught Carl....you do what you have to do....when the time comes and you will know it. Well that is exactly what Carol did. And I think she did show some remorse....her kicking the barrels of water....true it was more of an anger that maybe she hadn't succeeded in stopping the virus with the killings but .....that was probably about as remorseful as she was able to get at this point. There is no doubt that Carol has hardened up since Sophia's death.... I mean she may even be a tad crazy...but to me they all ARE! Who wouldn't be with all they have endured.

So yeah I think they need to really step back and make sure they are staying true to the characters and not make these leaps in logic sometimes. Maybe rick thought Carol would fight him on it and when she didn't he was shocked IDK....but I am still scratching my head that he would put her out like that. :S

And thought it was weird and OOC for Daryl to do that to Bob about the booze too. :S I mean Daryl had Meryl as a brother :eek: did they all forget just what a psychopath he was and he wasn't a threat at all the group :eek: Yet he was allowed to stay in the prison with all his .....he probably had a meth lab going on :lol: I mean seriously the writers just wanted to see Daryl and Bob twerking :P

OMG and speaking of meth lab.... I'm with you all.... GRAB ALL THE EFFING MEDS YOU CAN CARRY!! FOR HEAVEN SAKE....DON'T JUST GET WHAT'S ON THE LIST .... I mean it's important to AT LEAST GET THAT...but then fill the bags up!! I mean unless they have some code to only take what you need so others can get supplies...so it's not looting?? :S but come on that's sort of ridiculous at this point. :S

anyway that is all for now.... my keyboard is smoking ......

fems
November 9th, 2013, 12:16 AM
I think the problem with Bob was that he reached for his gun, indicating he was prepared to shoot Daryl (and Tyreese and Michonne) over half a bottle of booze. That's what angered Daryl, especially in light of the conversation they'd just had about what happened on their previous run with the booze and store collapsing and Beth's boyfriend whose name I don't recall (but that's okay, considering she hardly felt bad about him dying :P) dying.

LoneStar1836
November 10th, 2013, 10:14 AM
And thought it was weird and OOC for Daryl to do that to Bob about the booze too. :S I mean Daryl had Meryl as a brother :eek: did they all forget just what a psychopath he was and he wasn't a threat at all the group :eek: Yet he was allowed to stay in the prison with all his .....he probably had a meth lab going on :lol: I mean seriously the writers just wanted to see Daryl and Bob twerking :P lol! :D Maybe it did have more to do with him putting his hand on his gun, but I can't recall that scene clearly. I only watched the episode once. Will have to rewatch it tonight when they show it again before the new ep.

cosmichobo
February 7th, 2014, 04:22 AM
Ok, bit behind as always with TWD, but... OMG... I was expecting to see Herschel die this ep... not for Carol to be taken out the back paddock and left for dead...!!!

I guess we had the past 3 episodes building up to this... seeing her portrayed more and more as the heartless one, so scarred from the past (2 years?) that she's lost all her compassion...

Even though I suspected Rick was taking Carol with him to meter out justice, I literally was slack jawed as he gave her her marching orders... But yes, hopefully she'll be back...

Halfifrit
September 25th, 2014, 07:22 AM
Seemed to me like Rick just figured that convincing Carol to leave would be easier than dealing with Ty, and the reasons he mentioned would back him up. Even if we can understand her point of view, most people obv aren't indifferent even if it's for the benefit of the majority. We could go all philosophical about what Carol did, but god knows how surviving three years past apocalypse effect your mind.

Daryl seems to handle pretty much everything just fine, he might go out looking for her though, seems like a pattern, or he might not care at all. I don't think Ty would be happy either, but what can he do. Lizzie however might make some trouble when not on a leash, they sure made a case of filming that knife.

Why the hippie(s) didn't fire the gun when in trouble, I have no idea, seemed strange that they even wanted to pick up supplies when they'd locked themselves into a bathroom for two days because of one walker, why. Maybe the guy did it again.

I wanted to like Ty 'cause of the comics, but I don't get him. And Bob, a lot of good him being able to read that handwriting when he didn't pick up anything noteworthy. I think Daryl got upset on a more general level, he has to clean up a lot of messes. If they make that a thing.. Why why does it all have to be about love. This is no soap opera.