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GateWorld
April 25th, 2013, 09:02 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-name-of-the-doctor/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-name-of-the-doctor-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SERIES 33</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-name-of-the-doctor/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE NAME OF THE DOCTOR</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3314 (714)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">An old enemy manipulates the Doctor by abducting his friends, luring him to the one place he must never go -- and drawing Clara into the Doctor's own past.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-name-of-the-doctor/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Teddybrown
May 18th, 2013, 11:43 AM
Brilliant episode!
But how the hell does the ending work?????
Such a great story, and so Clara is just an ordinary girl...
Definately need to watch this again to get my head round some stuff and gather thoughts...

GodAtum
May 18th, 2013, 11:44 AM
ehhhh what just happened!!!! i think ive had a heart attack!

Sealurk
May 18th, 2013, 11:44 AM
OH. MY. GOD. The teaser alone just about makes up for every weak episode this season.

Strax is Glaswegian... THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. I know somebody who will be very pleased to learn this...

The OTHER psychic paper.

"The little... daleks"

"If you are a time traveller there is one place you must never go" and "The Doctor has a secret that he will take to his grave. It is discovered" Wow. That was a creepy, hairs standing up twist.

TARDIS falls from orbit with every system off, sustains nothing more than a cracked window. I LOVE this ship.

Strax seems to be more back to his usual self. I approve.

Is the GI talking about... the Valeyard? ARGH! HE SAID IT!

Yowzer... nice touch. He said he'd never say it again, but then the Doctor always lies.

"Do not divulge our military secrets!"

Please tell me Strax comes back...

Wow. Wow. Just... wow.

Blencathra
May 18th, 2013, 11:47 AM
You just said it Sealurk... just wow!!

Amazing episode.

But I really need to watch it again because I didn't catch everything.

mjwalshe
May 18th, 2013, 11:51 AM
Brilliant episode!
But how the hell does the ending work?????
Such a great story, and so Clara is just an ordinary girl...
Definately need to watch this again to get my head round some stuff and gather thoughts...

Definatly a FMH episode

dipsofjazz
May 18th, 2013, 11:57 AM
:D Wow indeed! I have to watch it all again too, to find all the things I missed.

GodAtum
May 18th, 2013, 11:57 AM
This is the best ep of season 7 and the only ep ive cried in lol! (i count the 1st half of season 7 as 6.5).

Alan
May 18th, 2013, 12:01 PM
:eek: muh...geh...br...zzp...qu :eek:

Loved it. More later...

Flyboy
May 18th, 2013, 12:02 PM
Ok... I feel the need to quote my own initial thoughts as written in my Facebook status about 45 seconds after the episode ended:


OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! DOCTOR WHO EPIC LOVE WIN ZOMG AWESOMENESS AMAZABALLS COHERENTLESS RAMBLING BEST DAY OF MY LIFE EVAH TOTALLY FRAKKIN AWESOME SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

DOCTOR WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Teddybrown
May 18th, 2013, 12:13 PM
So, was this episode actually leaked or just news, as I just did a search, and couldnt find anything really related to this episode...
Also, seems the apparent leaked 50th Anniversary synopsis was wrong...

Sealurk
May 18th, 2013, 12:15 PM
:eek: muh...geh...br...zzp...qu :eek:

Loved it. More later...


Ok... I feel the need to quote my own initial thoughts as written in my Facebook status about 45 seconds after the episode ended: Originally Posted by Iain Bennett
OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! DOCTOR WHO EPIC LOVE WIN ZOMG AWESOMENESS AMAZABALLS COHERENTLESS RAMBLING BEST DAY OF MY LIFE EVAH TOTALLY FRAKKIN AWESOME SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

DOCTOR WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Gentlemen, I couldn't have put it better myself.

Mr Moffatt - for this episode (and several others), and for the genius that I now know we'll be witnessing in the 50th Anniversary, you sir, should be made a sir. Sir The Moff - has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

The inclusion of some of Murray Gold's older music, particularly that utterly beautiful Gallifrey theme, just rounded out a superb episode. Every misstep this season is forgiven because this episode was just so, so worth the wait.

One thing I forgot to add (I'm already rewatching it)... Matt Smith's acting when the Doctor first finds out he has to go to Trenzalore from Clara got me a little choked up. Bravo to you, Matt. No joking, no hyperbole... that was just utterly beautiful, heartfelt acting that really got to me, and that doesn't often happen. This is why he's my favourite Doctor.

Sadly the ending was slightly spoiled for me by a somewhat negligent and oblivious (but admittedly not malicious) person, but it was still fantastic. This episode was just brilliant, as much a love letter to Who fans as a series finale.

27.3 out of 10, at least.

stargatefan234
May 18th, 2013, 12:44 PM
Valeyard :D :D :D

other than that.... meh... and finally WHAT?!

Admiral Mappalazarou
May 18th, 2013, 02:30 PM
Television gold. Standing ovation to Moffat and the cast and crew. What a tremendous piece of television.

Matt G
May 18th, 2013, 03:52 PM
1. Took a while before the Doctor showed up.

2. What we got was creepy from the start though.

3. Giant TARDIS...no wonder the TARDIS didn't like the idea.

4. Very cool FX with the older Doctors.

5. So 21st century Clara is the original.

Very creepy and very cool!

scifan
May 18th, 2013, 06:58 PM
Loved it!! Already saw it twice. My shippy heart just melted towards the end.

Commander Zelix
May 18th, 2013, 08:48 PM
I'm been critical of this season but this episode was just wow! Best of the season.

DigiFluid
May 18th, 2013, 09:58 PM
One thing I was a bit unclear on -- was the River in this episode supposed to be the post-death Library backup River? That's definitely the impression I had, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how that's possible. :confused:

The Flyattractor
May 19th, 2013, 12:05 AM
..........I so want to yank out my eyeballs and then strangle myself with the stems right now....

cosmichobo
May 19th, 2013, 12:54 AM
One word. I've just got one word for you all, and you'd better hear it. One word that brings this whole universe to a halt.

Oh wait, nevermind.

Oh yes - Valeyard.

If John Hurt is indeed playing the Valeyard, then I applaud thee... I applaud and I love it. An origins story for the Valeyard would be awesome, especially as we approach his "beginning" (ie between 12 and 13).

BUT... If Hurt is simply playing some as til now unknown Doctor... If he's playing the dark and nasty Time War Doctor (which surely should be McGann anyway), or some other deep dark secret Doctor that is going to add to our mythology a NEW BAD DOCTOR... Then I'm done... and I'll come back when Moffat is gone...

(Oh, and now we've had past Doctors, I don't anticipate seeing any past Doctor actors, nor any further clip/CGI Doctors in the Anniversary... which was what I was suspecting they'd do...)

Archaeis
May 19th, 2013, 01:46 AM
BUT... If Hurt is simply playing some as til now unknown Doctor... If he's playing the dark and nasty Time War Doctor (which surely should be McGann anyway), or some other deep dark secret Doctor that is going to add to our mythology a NEW BAD DOCTOR... Then I'm done... and I'll come back when Moffat is gone...


9, 10, and 11 were quite open about the things he did during the Time War. He didn't like to talk about it, but he didnt hide it either. Hurt's Doctor has to be something much different and probably older than the Time War.

Maybe something he did as the First Doctor that made him run away into exile?

Blencathra
May 19th, 2013, 02:07 AM
I was assuming that the John Hurt Doctor may be pre- First Doctor, ie BEFORE he started calling himself The Doctor. Whatever the Hurt version of the Doctor did, it must be pretty bad for "our" Doctor to disown him completely, and only to start counting his regenerations from when he changed his name to The Doctor.

From The Name of the Doctor


DOCTOR: I said he was me. I never said he was the Doctor.


DOCTOR: The name you chose - it's like a promise you make.


HURT DOCTOR: What I did, I did without choice.

DOCTOR: I know.

HURT DOCTOR: In the name of peace and sanity.

DOCTOR: But not in the name of the Doctor


From A Good Man Goes to War


RIVER: "Doctor": the word for "healer" and "wise man", throughout the universe. We get that word from you, you know.

So to my mind, the Hurt Doctor has done something the Doctor can't bear to think about. So he changes his name from "X" to The Doctor, making a promise to be a wise man and a healer from then on, and only counts his regenerations from the point he changed his name.

Oh and remember the unknown faces in The Brain of Morbius when the fourth Doctor and Morbius were battling it out? There may be even more.

cosmichobo
May 19th, 2013, 02:40 AM
The other thing...

I'd been enjoying the Great Intelligence's return... but ultimately now that we've seen it presumably gone forever, I feel pretty deflated. Ultimately it really just served as lip service to Moffat's great plot...

And even worse, the Buffy-Hush-rip-offs - at least the Silence got some kind of story behind them... These admittedly spooky fellas just wander in for half an episode and are gone just as quick...

I feel it would have been much better to have had a greater continuity for the GI/not-the-Hush/Snowmen/etc... as ultimately it just felt very flat - like you've just climbed a mountain, but taken the ski lift for 99% of it.

When Clara was laying in a fetal position, and the Doctor arrives to save her... I expected Richard E Grant to appear again for a final show down... but no... we get Mr Mysterious... If little Miss girl next door can survive, then the GI, that's been around for probably thousands of years, certainly can too...

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 04:58 AM
An enjoyable episode. Finally.

Loved the references Clara made to being a "souffle girl" even near the start of the episode.. The big reveal was good but I have another idea..........

What if John Hurt Doctor is in fact "The Real Doctor" as in wholly real, and the ones we've been watching were just pale imitations of the real Doctor? It can't be as bad as any of the other ideas floating around.

Flyboy
May 19th, 2013, 05:15 AM
An enjoyable episode. Finally.

Loved the references Clara made to being a "souffle girl" even near the start of the episode.. The big reveal was good but I have another idea..........

What if John Hurt Doctor is in fact "The Real Doctor" as in wholly real, and the ones we've been watching were just pale imitations of the real Doctor? It can't be as bad as any of the other ideas floating around.

Seriously...?

Ian-S
May 19th, 2013, 05:22 AM
I think as others John Hurt is 'pre-Doctor', hasn't it been mentioned that 'The Doctor' was in prison and escaped, stealing the Tardis in the process? I thought I heard that somewhere before.

I didn't like the 'Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor' what the hell was that about?, do they think nobody listens to the dialogue of the characters? It's like someone pointed out in post that they didn't understand what was going on so 'we'd better put it on screen who and what it is for those not listening'.

Also they never explained how TGI knew about the place, or got the people there, does he have a time machine too, or can he travel through time at will?

Perhaps I'm just getting old and cranky, but the Moff seems to forget some stuff needs to be explained to make the story believable, or explain how a baddie is different to every other, even a simple DW: how did you do this? TGI: You're not the only one with a time machine.... would do.

Grr, maybe I just need to rewatch it :lol:

min min light
May 19th, 2013, 05:28 AM
I also immediately thought of Buffy/Hush when I saw the Whispermen. I hope Moffat wasn't planning on making them a recurring thing.

This episode was probably a lot better for people who have watched all of Who including all the classic episodes, which I guess is as it should be since this is the anniversary year.

P-90_177
May 19th, 2013, 06:11 AM
I think as others John Hurt is 'pre-Doctor', hasn't it been mentioned that 'The Doctor' was in prison and escaped, stealing the Tardis in the process? I thought I heard that somewhere before.

I didn't like the 'Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor' what the hell was that about?, do they think nobody listens to the dialogue of the characters? It's like someone pointed out in post that they didn't understand what was going on so 'we'd better put it on screen who and what it is for those not listening'.

Also they never explained how TGI knew about the place, or got the people there, does he have a time machine too, or can he travel through time at will?

Perhaps I'm just getting old and cranky, but the Moff seems to forget some stuff needs to be explained to make the story believable, or explain how a baddie is different to every other, even a simple DW: how did you do this? TGI: You're not the only one with a time machine.... would do.

Grr, maybe I just need to rewatch it :lol:

Generally speaking Doctor Who villains have always just shown up in random places. In the case of The Great Intelligence you can easily assume that it is a version of it that has progressed through the ages to its most advanced level, hence the shapeshifting Whisper Men. The Great Intelligence's role is to gather knowledge. There's no reason why it couldn't find out the secret to time travel along the line quite easily.

As for "Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" I took that as definite confirmation that he IS the Doctor and not like a warped aspect of the Doctor like the Valeyard or such. Basically it was their way of saying "There's no need to guess whether he is or isn't really the Doctor, He REALLY is."

Also a bit of random knowledge here. John Hurt was born in my home town. :cameron:

cosmichobo
May 19th, 2013, 06:18 AM
I can say, with 100% accuracy, that this was my favourite episode of 2012/13... And yes, simply because we got to see body doubles and CGI of the old Doctors... Yes, min min light, some foreknowledge certainly helps here... though really - it's not super important. Really all you needed to pick up was that the old duffer stealing the TARDIS was the 1st Doctor... Ultimately - if you've only been watching for the past few years, as long as you understood there's more than 1 Doctor, then that's enough to know - all the guys running round in Clara's head are previous Doctors...

Ian-S - See, sadly it's not made clear, but the Great Intelligence was forced into non-corporeal form, and originally (ie 2 stories from 1968) was trying to find physical form once more, and take over the Earth... Whilst time travel/teleportation certainly weren't shown as the GI's talents back then, I had no real issue believing that it had whisked the Victorian Trio off to Trenzalore...

Yes, the "as The Doctor" was pretty weird... I could certainly imagine a producer saying - Errm, Steve, I think we need a label here...


Ohhh - and... Hurt's voice... Totally just made me think of... Canton Everett Delaware III - or his older self perhaps... Which really ruined the moment for me...

DigiFluid
May 19th, 2013, 06:31 AM
You really enjoy whining over trivial nothings, don't you?

Nth Chevron
May 19th, 2013, 06:35 AM
Well from first watch one thing is evidently clear ... The epic scale does not contain an appropriate level to describe that episode !!!

On the matter of john hurtz as the doctor, evil will ensue.

As for his being the doctor, it specifically stated that he betrayed the name of doctor, he would have had to make the choice off being the doctor before he could betray it.

with that being said it doesn't make sense for jh to be the pre doctor (though the theory of him being the other from tl history is appealing) he could be the valeyard in which case they are seeing the doctors future before it has happened, dangerous as where he was encountered becomes such a complex event it may become fixed. It could also be an older tw mcgann who became the genocidal monster that we believe he became on the front lines of that war.


Also the doctors tomb, on trenzalore, part of his last great battle or massacre from the gi's perspective.

Is this a possible valeyard moment of despotism or the doctors final stand against tyranny?

Also, calling it now, the 50th will be about the doctor and Clara trying to escape the doctors time stream with the valeyard running interference and trying to goad the doctor, although possibly laying the groundwork for his existence at whichever regeneration.

Archaeis
May 19th, 2013, 06:38 AM
Did anyone else hope that Series 5/Cracks in time/whoever hijacked the TARDIS/Silence would come into play here too and disappointed when it didn't?

cosmichobo
May 19th, 2013, 07:17 AM
You really enjoy whining over trivial nothings, don't you?

Me?

Yes.

Why?

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 07:42 AM
Did anyone else hope that Series 5/Cracks in time/whoever hijacked the TARDIS/Silence would come into play here too and disappointed when it didn't?

Very much........... I want all that resolved.

I'd like to see the Silence return to see:

A) what's left of them as their numbers would be thinned
B) their plan B to kill The Doctor

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 07:47 AM
Seriously...?


Yes seriously.

John Hurt is The Doctor

All the others that followed were regenerations of him but pale by comparison because he was The original... The one that came before all the others and did something that they all have pushed back into their memories to never speak of again.

The Flyattractor
May 19th, 2013, 08:21 AM
That sounds kind of silly and ill-concieved...I am sure Moffat will be plagerising you as fast as he can...

P-90_177
May 19th, 2013, 08:22 AM
Did anyone else hope that Series 5/Cracks in time/whoever hijacked the TARDIS/Silence would come into play here too and disappointed when it didn't?

I really don't think there's anything left to resolve there. The cracks were the result of the TARDIS exploding, which it did at the end of season 5. The TARDIS wasn't hijacked, she moved herself.

GodAtum
May 19th, 2013, 09:02 AM
I really don't think there's anything left to resolve there. The cracks were the result of the TARDIS exploding, which it did at the end of season 5. The TARDIS wasn't hijacked, she moved herself.

When did the TARDIS explode? my memory is rubbish.

Quizziard
May 19th, 2013, 10:50 AM
The TARDIS exploded in "The Big Bang". It explodes with the time-restoration field from the Pandorica, thus resetting the universe. Though precisely when/where to has never been studied. But probably before the Silence, since the crack was healed.

Quizziard
May 19th, 2013, 10:52 AM
Anyway, was out of position for this episode so only just caught up.

Yes, wow, John Hurt. But, as already raised, which non-Doctor is he. Post-Smith, something pre-Ecclestone or pre-Hartnell? Very interesting. Not entirely sure it's really as game-changing as claimed, just another twist.

As for the episode, I was having some DVR problems but it felt a bit bleh! Needs another watching.

SaberBlade
May 19th, 2013, 12:23 PM
When did the TARDIS explode? my memory is rubbish.

The TARDIS exploded at the end of season 5. It was really never explained why The Silence and their associates wanted the Doctor dead or how they were able to cause it to blow up.

I don't believe John Hurt is the pre-Doctor. There are several reasons for this.

Reason 1. Eleventh would be the final Doctor.

Him being a pre-Doctor does fit in line with his regeneration history, but Ten used two regenerations (one becoming Eleventh, but another previously in the creation of The DoctorDonna).

Pre-Doctor
Regeneration 1: First Doctor
Regeneration 2: Second Doctor
Regeneration 3: Third Doctor
Regeneration 4: Fourth
Regeneration 5: Fifth
Regeneration 6: Sixth
Regeneration 7: Seventh
Regeneration 8: Eighth
Regeneration 9: Ninth
Regeneration 10: Tenth
Regeneration 11: Tenth (Stolen Earth/Journey's End. Like it or not, it was still a full regeneration used)
Regeneration 12 (Final): Eleventh

So there is no way for him to become The Beast, the Storm or The Valeyard since when Eleven dies, he's dead for good. If not for that pesky DoctorDonna regeneration but I can't see it

Reason 2: The Doctor said he picked that name, and in doing so it was like a promise he made. He made a promise when he became The Doctor. However, John Hurt broke the promise. So he would have had to be The Doctor to begin with in order for the promise to have been broken. So the whole point of the ultimate question, "Doctor who?" is not about his birth name (as he pointed out, his real name has nothing to do with it) but it's about who he is, that's the real question, Who is The Doctor. Is he the Eleven people we've seen so far, or is he this new person who broke the promise.

If I had to guess, I would say this non-Doctor is the person the Silence were at war with. The reason that Trenzalore was a battleground and now a dead world, full of graves and monuments. The Great Intelligence even says the battle of Trenzalore was "too much for the old man" and we did see an old Doctor at the end.

Since The Doctor didn't know about Trenzalore, I do believe it's a future version of The Doctor. Perhaps he's The Valeyard as The Doctor would know about his future dark version but not about the specifics. It's just weird it would be a secret he'd take to his grave since Valeyard isn't a new character.

Or, completely random thought, he's the future version of Eighth. The Doctor could do a lot to try keeping that version of himself secret as not many know what he did to end the war. I really like the idea of him being an old Eighth and the clothing seemed to fit but I think he's just a future, if not final version of the Doctor responsible for whatever happened on the planet.

I do look forward to finding out who Solomon the Trader is. I don't remember that character out of all the known characters The Great Intelligence mentioned.

cosmichobo
May 19th, 2013, 01:59 PM
I do look forward to finding out who Solomon the Trader is. I don't remember that character out of all the known characters The Great Intelligence mentioned.

http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/monsters/solomon/

Admiral Mappalazarou
May 19th, 2013, 02:01 PM
Him being a pre-Doctor does fit in line with his regeneration history, but Ten used two regenerations (one becoming Eleventh, but another previously in the creation of The DoctorDonna).

Remind me ...

P-90_177
May 19th, 2013, 02:21 PM
The TARDIS exploded at the end of season 5. It was really never explained why The Silence and their associates wanted the Doctor dead or how they were able to cause it to blow up.

I don't believe John Hurt is the pre-Doctor. There are several reasons for this.

Reason 1. Eleventh would be the final Doctor.

Him being a pre-Doctor does fit in line with his regeneration history, but Ten used two regenerations (one becoming Eleventh, but another previously in the creation of The DoctorDonna).

Pre-Doctor
Regeneration 1: First Doctor
Regeneration 2: Second Doctor
Regeneration 3: Third Doctor
Regeneration 4: Fourth
Regeneration 5: Fifth
Regeneration 6: Sixth
Regeneration 7: Seventh
Regeneration 8: Eighth
Regeneration 9: Ninth
Regeneration 10: Tenth
Regeneration 11: Tenth (Stolen Earth/Journey's End. Like it or not, it was still a full regeneration used)
Regeneration 12 (Final): Eleventh

So there is no way for him to become The Beast, the Storm or The Valeyard since when Eleven dies, he's dead for good. If not for that pesky DoctorDonna regeneration but I can't see it

Reason 2: The Doctor said he picked that name, and in doing so it was like a promise he made. He made a promise when he became The Doctor. However, John Hurt broke the promise. So he would have had to be The Doctor to begin with in order for the promise to have been broken. So the whole point of the ultimate question, "Doctor who?" is not about his birth name (as he pointed out, his real name has nothing to do with it) but it's about who he is, that's the real question, Who is The Doctor. Is he the Eleven people we've seen so far, or is he this new person who broke the promise.

If I had to guess, I would say this non-Doctor is the person the Silence were at war with. The reason that Trenzalore was a battleground and now a dead world, full of graves and monuments. The Great Intelligence even says the battle of Trenzalore was "too much for the old man" and we did see an old Doctor at the end.

Since The Doctor didn't know about Trenzalore, I do believe it's a future version of The Doctor. Perhaps he's The Valeyard as The Doctor would know about his future dark version but not about the specifics. It's just weird it would be a secret he'd take to his grave since Valeyard isn't a new character.

Or, completely random thought, he's the future version of Eighth. The Doctor could do a lot to try keeping that version of himself secret as not many know what he did to end the war. I really like the idea of him being an old Eighth and the clothing seemed to fit but I think he's just a future, if not final version of the Doctor responsible for whatever happened on the planet.

I do look forward to finding out who Solomon the Trader is. I don't remember that character out of all the known characters The Great Intelligence mentioned.

The 11th isn't the final Doctor, or at least he needn't be. After all he threatened the Cyber Planner that he would regenerate and burn up its circuitry. And I doubt that was a bluff either. There was no indication that it was.

Matt G
May 19th, 2013, 03:00 PM
I'm going for Hurt's character to be technically a regen of the Doctor that I'm guessing slots in between McGann Doctor and Ecclestone-Doctor but one that didn't call himself the Doctor. I think Smith-Doctor is only POd at him because he didn't cal himself the Doctor, he implied there's some kind of code-of-honour involved in the names the Timelords choose for themselves!

SaberBlade
May 19th, 2013, 04:00 PM
http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/monsters/solomon/

Weird, I really didn't remember his name being Solomon.


Remind me ...

End of season four. The Doctor was shot by a Dalek just after being reunited with Rose. Instead of fully regenerating, he healed himself up and put the rest of the regeneration energy into a hand that was cut off during the Christmas Special after Nine became Ten. The rest of his energy ended up creating the DoctorDonna.


The 11th isn't the final Doctor, or at least he needn't be. After all he threatened the Cyber Planner that he would regenerate and burn up its circuitry. And I doubt that was a bluff either. There was no indication that it was.

I know he won't be the final Doctor, but if John Hurt is the original pre-Doctor, then Eleven would be the last out of the Doctor's original permitted regenerations.

Without outside interference, Time Lords have 12 regenerations by default. This means there should have been a Thirteen Doctor at some point. However, as previously stated, Tenth used an additional regeneration after being shot by the Daleks. As a result, the final Doctor should be the Twelve incarnation. If John Hurt's character was the original born Galifrayian because he started calling himself The Doctor, then Eleven is the twelfth incarnation and therefore the last incarnation.

First Doctor to Tenth Doctor was 9 regenerations. 10 was used creating the DoctorDonna and 11 was used with the current Doctor. If John Hurt regenerated into the First Doctor, then that would be the final regeneration used up. The interesting thing is, Valeyard was said to be the Doctor's penultimate incarnation, so with one regeneration left, Valeyard should be the next form the Doctor takes before fully regenerating into Twelve. It was also specifically said Valeyard is between his 12th and 13th regeneration, not his 12 to 13 incarnation (which can not longer happen thanks to Tenth) so The Doctor will use his up his twelfth regeneration, become Valeyard (his 12th incarnation) before finally settling into his 13th incarnation. It fits he'd be Valeyard, or I'm just really overthinking it at 12:23am.

So I can't see John Hurt being the pre-Doctor because Eleven would have no regenerations left and be the last Doctor. With that all said, I am certain the groundwork has been laid to give the Doctor more regenerations in the future, be it with Amy recreating the Doctor with her memory after Big Bang 2 or River giving The Doctor all her remaining regeneration energy (or even earlier with the entire human race psychically empowering the Doctor).

SGalisa
May 19th, 2013, 04:37 PM
I don't believe John Hurt is the pre-Doctor. There are several reasons for this.

Reason 1. Eleventh would be the final Doctor.

Him being a pre-Doctor does fit in line with his regeneration history, but Ten used two regenerations (one becoming Eleventh, but another previously in the creation of The DoctorDonna).

Pre-Doctor
Regeneration 1: First Doctor
Regeneration 2: Second Doctor
Regeneration 3: Third Doctor
Regeneration 4: Fourth
Regeneration 5: Fifth
Regeneration 6: Sixth
Regeneration 7: Seventh
Regeneration 8: Eighth
Regeneration 9: Ninth
Regeneration 10: Tenth
Regeneration 11: Tenth (Stolen Earth/Journey's End. Like it or not, it was still a full regeneration used)
Regeneration 12 (Final): Eleventh

So there is no way for him to become The Beast, the Storm or The Valeyard since when Eleven dies, he's dead for good. If not for that pesky DoctorDonna regeneration but I can't see it

Reason 2: The Doctor said he picked that name, and in doing so it was like a promise he made. He made a promise when he became The Doctor. However, John Hurt broke the promise. So he would have had to be The Doctor to begin with in order for the promise to have been broken.

The whole who is John Hurt scenario? It would depend on which perspective the current creators are taking this from. Both sides of the equation can be possible, depending on one's POV. ;)



The 11th isn't the final Doctor, or at least he needn't be. After all he threatened the Cyber Planner that he would regenerate and burn up its circuitry. And I doubt that was a bluff either. There was no indication that it was.


End of season four. The Doctor was shot by a Dalek just after being reunited with Rose. Instead of fully regenerating, he healed himself up and put the rest of the regeneration energy into a hand that was cut off during the Christmas Special after Nine became Ten. The rest of his energy ended up creating the DoctorDonna.



I know he won't be the final Doctor, but if John Hurt is the original pre-Doctor, then Eleven would be the last out of the Doctor's original permitted regenerations.

Without outside interference, Time Lords have 12 regenerations by default. This means there should have been a Thirteen Doctor at some point. However, as previously stated, Tenth used an additional regeneration after being shot by the Daleks.

I wouldn't get too tangled into which regeneration the current *Matt Smith's* Doctor is, as it's already been revealed that depending on how well this series continues to thrive or not, depends on whether or not TPTB in control of everything about DOCTOR WHO will extend his life beyond if/whoever is next and beyond plays the Doctor's part. There has also been an on-going debate of the original Doctor being portrayed by another actor (and known as "The Forgotten Doctor".. I think it was Peter Cushing) in the movie versions. So, we're well beyond the standard regeneration cycle, if such personas also get tossed into the mix.

Personally, if the series does well enough into future months/years ahead, then the standard (default) regeneration cycle will be broken with some sort of rational explanation. :D
It will probably depend on who is TPTB at that time, and how many more stories get sent across the writers desks, etc. ;)

scifan
May 19th, 2013, 04:41 PM
What if this "Doctor" is the reason for all of the Timelords being killed? None of the Doctors want to really say what happened and Clara did see his "name" in the history book? Just an idea. :o

Sealurk
May 19th, 2013, 05:27 PM
Personally, I think the Doctor's regeneration cycle was renewed or the limit removed when he started fighting in the Time War because I can imagine the Time Lords doing everything they could to minimise casualties, especially for major players like the Doctor. If they could resurrect the Master with his own brand new cycle of regenerations, it's probable they did the same for the Doctor (whether he liked it or not) and perhaps every Time Lord everywhere.

The Doctor hasn't shown much if any concern about how few regenerations he has left, he probably burned up an entire regeneration without so much as a second thought in The Stolen Earth and readily used regenerative energy to heal River's wrist in The Angels Take Manhattan (though granted, she wasn't happy about that and called it a stupid waste). Now, this could be because he isn't afraid of dying (Nine wasn't, at least if it meant something) and if Ten's words in The End of Time still hold true for Eleven, he still might think he's already lived too long. But even so, if he was still subject to the thirteen incarnation limit imposed before the Time War surely he would be very worried about the possibility of the Valeyard rearing his head soon?

In fact, the new regeneration effect seen in the revived series could be interpreted as evidence - with a new regeneration cycle comes a new regeneration process, equivalent to an upgrade being rolled out.

On the subject of the Hurt incarnation, I doubt he's the Zeroth Doctor. It might seem too obvious, but I'm sticking to the idea that he was the one who in effect sacrificed his name and almost existence in order to end the Time War by doing something completely necessary ("What I did, I did without choice." "I know.") and yet something so unforgivably terrible and monstrous that the other incarnations actively bury all knowledge of him. If he broke the promise, doesn't that imply there was a promise in effect to break in the first place?

One final thought - anybody else think this was just a visit to Trenzalore, not the visit to Trenzalore? Assuming the Silence were actually right, it didn't seem like anybody was compelled to answer truthfully at any point (in fact the Doctor resisted the GI's interrogation even though it nearly cost him Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Strax) and it didn't feel much like the Fall of the Eleventh. I think we'll be seeing that planet again, when Matt Smith eventually chooses to step down.

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 05:44 PM
Yes seriously.

John Hurt is The Doctor

All the others that followed were regenerations of him but pale by comparison because he was The original... The one that came before all the others and did something that they all have pushed back into their memories to never speak of again.


That sounds kind of silly and ill-concieved...I am sure Moffat will be plagerising you as fast as he can...


He probably would if he knew..... I'm that awesome :D



If John Hurt's Doctor is the Valeyard that would be pretty damn awesome.....

But I think he's the first original Doctor that did something very bad for peace...........

He then regenerated into the first TV version of the Doctor that we see in "An Unearthly Child".........

Stole the TARDIS because Galifrey was about to fall. I think he started the time war.

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 05:50 PM
One last niggle.

How did they contact River for that stupid conference call thing, when she's in the Library computer. River even mentions it.

Did they contact River of another time period?

P-90_177
May 19th, 2013, 06:21 PM
One last niggle.

How did they contact River for that stupid conference call thing, when she's in the Library computer. River even mentions it.

Did they contact River of another time period?

The Conference call required a dream state. Since River was downloaded into the Library her whole existence could be considered a dream.
As for how she knew to do so, if the Doctor had mentioned what happened to River to Vastra then she may have thought to include a message to River in a book. Since she has a lot of time on her hands, River would have come across it sooner or later.

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 06:23 PM
The Conference call required a dream state. Since River was downloaded into the Library her whole existence could be considered a dream.
As for how she knew to do so, if the Doctor had mentioned what happened to River to Vastra then she may have thought to include a message to River in a book. Since she has a lot of time on her hands, River would have come across it sooner or later.



But what about all the other appearances of River? Was that really her?

P-90_177
May 19th, 2013, 06:55 PM
But what about all the other appearances of River? Was that really her?

Errr. Not quite sure specifically what you mean. If you mean in this particular episode then as River said it is because she had maintained the link with Clara. Clara after that was essentially carrying River around in her head. The Doctor is Psychic so that is how he was aware of her.

If you're talking about Rivers previous appearances in other episodes then all of those were before her death in the library.

Coco Pops
May 19th, 2013, 07:43 PM
Errr. Not quite sure specifically what you mean. If you mean in this particular episode then as River said it is because she had maintained the link with Clara. Clara after that was essentially carrying River around in her head. The Doctor is Psychic so that is how he was aware of her.

If you're talking about Rivers previous appearances in other episodes then all of those were before her death in the library.


Yes I meant those other appearances in past episodes.


I've revised the timeline of my "real doctor" idea

But I think he's the first original Doctor that did something very bad for peace...........

He then regenerated into the first TV version of the Doctor that we see in "An Unearthly Child".........

Stole the TARDIS because Galifrey was about to fall. I think he started the time war.

Quizziard
May 19th, 2013, 10:10 PM
One final thought - anybody else think this was just a visit to Trenzalore, not the visit to Trenzalore? Assuming the Silence were actually right, it didn't seem like anybody was compelled to answer truthfully at any point (in fact the Doctor resisted the GI's interrogation even though it nearly cost him Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Strax) and it didn't feel much like the Fall of the Eleventh. I think we'll be seeing that planet again, when Matt Smith eventually chooses to step down.

River was compelled to speak the truth, "revealing" the Doctor's name. Though, quite cleverly, off-camera (and arguably against the Doctor's wishes). We were probably imagining what his Fall would be - but could it simply be having to reveal his secret, his greatest lie, he has not always been "The Doctor" (i.e. for a short period he was the John Hurt non-Doctor)?

GodAtum
May 20th, 2013, 01:30 AM
John Hurt will play the Ninth Doctor in the 'Doctor Who' 50th anniversary episode.

The 73-year-old actor's alter-ego will be a regeneration of the Time Lord, which the character has forgotten about, in the special after Christopher Eccleston - who played the ninth incarnation of the Doctor in 2005 - refused to return for the episode after holding talks with showrunner Steven Moffat.

A source told The Sun newspaper: "John will play the real Ninth Doctor. Christopher Eccleston has always been thought of as the Ninth Doctor but now that John has been revealed as the Ninth Doctor, it shuffles Eccleston's Doctor to be the 10th Time Lord, Tennant the 11th and Smith the 12th.

"It also means the Doctor's time is running out as he can only regenerate 12 times."

John revealed earlier this week he will play "part of the Doctor" in a "kind of trinity" with Matt Smith and David Tennant, but the pair's Doctors will initially refuse to accept John's character is one of them until it becomes apparent thanks to their sonic screwdrivers.

The source explained: "Steven loves a complex plot and there will be plenty of surprises along the way.

"The reason the Doctor has forgotten his ninth incarnation will become clear but it's to do with the Time War and his shame over his behaviour in it.

"Tennant and Smith's Doctors will at first refuse to accept Hurt is them -- until their sonic screwdrivers confirm it and announce, 'He's us. He's the ninth us'."

John's Doctor has deliberately been given a style similar to both the Eighth Doctor - who was portrayed by Paul McGann - and Christopher's Time Lord.

A source said: "John was given a very familiar look that goes half way between two regenerations."

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/lif...Doctor/?ref=ms

Varinus
May 20th, 2013, 04:52 AM
John Hurt will play the Ninth Doctor in the 'Doctor Who' 50th anniversary episode.

The 73-year-old actor's alter-ego will be a regeneration of the Time Lord, which the character has forgotten about, in the special after Christopher Eccleston - who played the ninth incarnation of the Doctor in 2005 - refused to return for the episode after holding talks with showrunner Steven Moffat.

A source told The Sun newspaper: "John will play the real Ninth Doctor. Christopher Eccleston has always been thought of as the Ninth Doctor but now that John has been revealed as the Ninth Doctor, it shuffles Eccleston's Doctor to be the 10th Time Lord, Tennant the 11th and Smith the 12th.

"It also means the Doctor's time is running out as he can only regenerate 12 times."

John revealed earlier this week he will play "part of the Doctor" in a "kind of trinity" with Matt Smith and David Tennant, but the pair's Doctors will initially refuse to accept John's character is one of them until it becomes apparent thanks to their sonic screwdrivers.

The source explained: "Steven loves a complex plot and there will be plenty of surprises along the way.

"The reason the Doctor has forgotten his ninth incarnation will become clear but it's to do with the Time War and his shame over his behaviour in it.

"Tennant and Smith's Doctors will at first refuse to accept Hurt is them -- until their sonic screwdrivers confirm it and announce, 'He's us. He's the ninth us'."

John's Doctor has deliberately been given a style similar to both the Eighth Doctor - who was portrayed by Paul McGann - and Christopher's Time Lord.

A source said: "John was given a very familiar look that goes half way between two regenerations."

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/lif...Doctor/?ref=ms

I have just read the above spoiler and cannot help but feel that it is only partially true. Why would an actor as great as John Hurt blab the whole thing now? I think this is mostly true but I would guess there are a couple of large acts of omission here which are central to the actual plot and may even cast a very different light on what is being said.

Greenee
May 20th, 2013, 09:14 AM
I've just found the time to watch it and before I go back to read myself through this whole thread: WHAT?!!!

Greenee
May 20th, 2013, 09:28 AM
Brilliant episode!
But how the hell does the ending work?????
Such a great story, and so Clara is just an ordinary girl...
Definately need to watch this again to get my head round some stuff and gather thoughts...


OH. MY. GOD. The teaser alone just about makes up for every weak episode this season.

Strax is Glaswegian... THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. I know somebody who will be very pleased to learn this...

The OTHER psychic paper.

"The little... daleks"

"If you are a time traveller there is one place you must never go" and "The Doctor has a secret that he will take to his grave. It is discovered" Wow. That was a creepy, hairs standing up twist.

TARDIS falls from orbit with every system off, sustains nothing more than a cracked window. I LOVE this ship.

Strax seems to be more back to his usual self. I approve.

Is the GI talking about... the Valeyard? ARGH! HE SAID IT!

Yowzer... nice touch. He said he'd never say it again, but then the Doctor always lies.

"Do not divulge our military secrets!"

Please tell me Strax comes back...

Wow. Wow. Just... wow.

I'd absolutlely sign, what you two said. This is possimbly the best solution for the Clara mysterie they could come up with and I LOVE it: Clara beeing something of her own and still all teh connections between her and River have a meening and are more then false hints to distrac the fans. I didn't think this would be possible without ger actully beeing River (still, the mysterie is not fully solved. How are tehy connected?) The ending is the most teasing Cliffhanger ever (and I though it couldn't get worse than the christmasspecial - worse in an possitive way), Bluddy priliant acting of all of them. I was on top of suspense frome the very opening scene. Just: WOW!

Oh one of my favourite linese: Stax: DId your skin just turned a darker shade of green?

Greenee
May 20th, 2013, 10:08 AM
This episode was probably a lot better for people who have watched all of Who including all the classic episodes, which I guess is as it should be since this is the anniversary year.

I haven't seen much of classic who, and absolutly enjoyed this ep.


Did anyone else hope that Series 5/Cracks in time/whoever hijacked the TARDIS/Silence would come into play here too and disappointed when it didn't?

I hoped, the silence would pop up again, but wasn't dissapointed they didn't. I think, what we got was brilliant (though I admid a kittle more screentime for the evil would have been good but like it was said many times during teh last weeks: 45 min. for one story are hardly ever enough.

Greenee
May 20th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Personally, if the series does well enough into future months/years ahead, then the standard (default) regeneration cycle will be broken with some sort of rational explanation. :D
It will probably depend on who is TPTB at that time, and how many more stories get sent across the writers desks, etc. ;)

*immitateds Ood-voice* the circle must be broken! ;)

Cold Fuzz
May 20th, 2013, 03:42 PM
The Doctor hasn't shown much if any concern about how few regenerations he has left, he probably burned up an entire regeneration without so much as a second thought in The Stolen Earth and readily used regenerative energy to heal River's wrist in The Angels Take Manhattan (though granted, she wasn't happy about that and called it a stupid waste). Now, this could be because he isn't afraid of dying (Nine wasn't, at least if it meant something) and if Ten's words in The End of Time still hold true for Eleven, he still might think he's already lived too long. But even so, if he was still subject to the thirteen incarnation limit imposed before the Time War surely he would be very worried about the possibility of the Valeyard rearing his head soon?

I'm wondering if River using all her remaining regenerations to save the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler may have a factor in removing the regeneration limit.


On the subject of the Hurt incarnation, I doubt he's the Zeroth Doctor. It might seem too obvious, but I'm sticking to the idea that he was the one who in effect sacrificed his name and almost existence in order to end the Time War by doing something completely necessary ("What I did, I did without choice." "I know.") and yet something so unforgivably terrible and monstrous that the other incarnations actively bury all knowledge of him. If he broke the promise, doesn't that imply there was a promise in effect to break in the first place?

Very good points. I think there are three likely possibilities for John Hurt

1. He is the 0th Doctor.
2. He is the Doctor of the Time War (possibly igniting the war or cataclysmically ending it).
3. He is the Valeyard, the Beast, Storm, etc.

I'm leaning towards numbers two or three. As the Doctor can see the past, present, and future (especially inside his own time stream) I think he would treat even future incarnations as if their actions have already happened. I think the dialogue, "He's the one who broke the promise" in the episode was perhaps a way for the Moff to bring out the idea of a future Doctor that's gone bad. If the dialogue read as "He's the one who will break the promise" instead, it would function as a spoiler, which I think is something he would avoid.


One final thought - anybody else think this was just a visit to Trenzalore, not the visit to Trenzalore? Assuming the Silence were actually right, it didn't seem like anybody was compelled to answer truthfully at any point (in fact the Doctor resisted the GI's interrogation even though it nearly cost him Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Strax) and it didn't feel much like the Fall of the Eleventh. I think we'll be seeing that planet again, when Matt Smith eventually chooses to step down.

I completely agree. This is not THE visit to Trenzalore, where the whole Fall of the Eleventh is supposed to take place. I remember reading several months ago that Moff has the endgame for the Eleventh Doctor planned already and I think one final battle for him at Trenzalore would be it. I'm also thinking that the Silence and other past adversaries will be there for that battle, and that someone the Doctor will again escape his supposedly predestined fate.

MasySyma
May 20th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Was it an entertaining episode? Yes, absolutely.
Did it contain a story worthy of a series finale? Most of the time, yes.
Was it worth six hours of weak episodes leading up this finale? Unfortunately, no.

The Good:
I enjoyed the references to past Doctors. I'll need to rewatch to catch them all, but this was the best use of the past Doctors in New Who.

River. She improves almost any episode (except The Angles Take Manhattan). Here, it was nice to see the Doctor's feelings for her as well as her official (i.e., canonical) death. I'll be sad to see her go, but her story has been developed well.

The not so good, especially after further thought:
The Doctor stepping into his body. 1) It's rather gross. I respect that he is just made up of regenerative electro glowing goo, but a small parade of people are in his timeline made flesh, a physical timeline, hence a body. 2) It's rather poor writing. Wouldn't every time lord body leave this scar? Couldn't any of them be entered? Also, if the Tardis starts leaking, wouldn't some of these tombs get planet- or universe-sized? Again, it seems a bit odd, impractical, and more about spectacle than substance.

Clara's answer. Now, I respect that more could be coming here, but right now, this one doesn't quite work. The Silurian could have jumped into the scar too, and given her desire to save Jenny, it would have made sense, but logically only Clara can enter the stream to make part 2 of series 7 have any kind of meaning.

Speculation:
Clara has to repair the Doctor. So she has to patch all of him, so John Hurt being the first form or Doctor 8.5 doesn't matter. The point is that the Doctor has to accept all of himself, even the parts he doesn't like to call the Doctor, to defeat the Great Intelligence.

The Disappointing:
Series 5 and 6 plots appear to be abandoned. Yes, we know the cause of the cracks, but we don't know who creates the scenario from the mind of Amy. Also, no Silents appeared at Trensilor (sorry if I'm spelling that wrong.) I respect that River saved him from having to say his name, so perhaps the fall of the Silents is still in a possible future, but after having to put up with the boring fleshy people last year, fleshy-like whispering henchmen don't make this episode better.

Overall, it was a fun episode that accomplished nothing other than giving us a few details on Clara and setting up the 50th anniversary.

As a episode: 10/10
As a finale: 9/10
As a wrap to series 5, 6, and 7: 3/10

Coco Pops
May 20th, 2013, 06:59 PM
From here

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who/25687/the-big-questions-from-doctor-who-the-name-of-the-doctor

This is interesting



Is there an unsolved TARDIS mystery?

From commenter Sean The Sheep, something we'd not considered: "Remember that the TARDIS claims the Doctor did not steal it; it says it stole the Doctor. Therefore, Clara was acting as an agent of the Tardis when she directed Dr Hartnell away from a perfect TARDIS towards a defective one. That makes the TARDIS The Great Intelligence. Not immediately, of course, but we now know the Tardis will go bad sometime in the future: the past depends on it".

Read more:
http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who/25687/the-big-questions-from-doctor-who-the-name-of-the-doctor#ixzz2TszDTBTh

And check this page out. Last picture of "Journey to the centre of the TARDIS" there's a "crack" in the TARDIS. That looks like the ones from season 5..

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who/25432/doctor-who-the-mystery-of-series-5s-exploding-tardis

mr_kennedy
May 21st, 2013, 01:16 AM
HOLY CRAP.........

Clara, loved the explanation :D, she is dying all the time because she is in all of his time streams, never thought about that, i was thinking it was clones sent across time and space or something but not that awesome

River Song, Post Silence of the Library was a nice touch, i think it was made possible cus when madame vastra sent out the calling cards she might have sent it to late (timey wimey wibbly wobbly) so we got dead river song....?

the valeyard, was awesome so that makes matt smith the 12th doctor :D, i just wonder which number the valeyard is tho, and john hurt is a great choice for this part btw

The Tardis getting bigger on the outside, ha nice touch, but worrysome if it got too big

As previously stated this episode makes up for every weak episode from this season (not that there where that many tho)

Ian-S
May 21st, 2013, 03:47 AM
A second viewing made the episode much better.

The way stuff is being leaked I wonder if the 50th Episode will happen solely in this "timestream world", or whether Hurt's character will follow Smith Dr and Clara back out to the real world, and Smith Dr may enlist Tennant Dr to help.

I also got the feeling that this wasn't the visit to Trenzalore either, as TGI said his death was the result of a "trivial" battle in comparison to some the Doctor has encountered, was being the indicator, as in, past tense (for TGI anyway).

The Flyattractor
May 21st, 2013, 10:34 AM
The one thing that this episode kind of saved for me was that before this I kind of had this dread that the 50th was going to be focusing on Clara being the Impossible Girl more then it would about the Doctor's Himselves.

Nth Chevron
May 21st, 2013, 03:39 PM
For all of you postulating JH as the Doctor that instigated the TW, it wasnt a sole act, TW was the outcome from the TL as an authority pre-TW, attempting to change the evolutionary path of the Daleks in the Tom Baker era "Genesis of the Daleks."

The Time War ended because the Doctor used the "Moment," which was a modification on the original "D-Mat Gun," created by Rassilon in ages past to remove a single target from existence in much the way the cracks in season 5 removed Rory. The problem being is that once it was used it blew up after one shot if i recall correctly.

"The Moment" was modified by the Doctor to remove more than just 1 target from existence, it was used on the TL to prevent the initiation of the Final Sanction.

I would hazard a guess that the effects of removing the planet and civilisation that are, i think, responsible for for Time as we know it to exist, was the inferno that the Dalek Emperor spoke of in "The Parting of the Ways."

What i dont understand though, is if JH is the TW Doctor who commits genocide and every other iteration of the Doctor ignores that part, then whenever the Doctor says anything relating to the fact that it was HE who killed the TL, he acknowledges that persona as its an even that happened at the hands of, by, during and in full knowledge of its effects BY the JH incarnation.

N.C

Sealurk
May 21st, 2013, 03:48 PM
Which episodes mentioned all this? I was under the impression that the Time War was a creation of the revived series, and I can't remember hearing any of that.

mr_kennedy
May 21st, 2013, 04:58 PM
i think john hurt was the one who used the moment, and that made him regenerate into 9, i dont think the john hurt incarnation of the doctor would have been around too long, maybe 8 had to regenerate during the time war before using the moment heck maybe obtaining the moment made him regenerate and turn into john hurt's incarnation, and using the moment made john hurt regenerate into christopher eccleston's incarnation

Darren
May 21st, 2013, 05:01 PM
Loved the episode and the reveal at the end.

Not knowing a whole lot about the pre-2005 Who, my instincts were to think that John Hurt's Doctor is a regeneration between McGann and Eccleston (making Smith the de facto Twelfth all this time). After all, we never did see the McGann-to-Eccleston regeneration on screen. It would be brilliant for Moffat to use the show's years off the air as a hidden plot device -- i.e. an extra Doctor the viewers never knew about and always assumed didn't exist.

I'm not worried about him running out of regenerations, for the various reasons people have mentioned above. They've been playing fast and loose with regeneration energy for a while now.

The notion of him having broken a promise seems to point to a time after he first took the name "Doctor." Theoretically this could be pre-Hartnell, if Hurt took the name and then broke the promise before regenerating into Hartnell.

This horrible thing that the Hurt Doctor did ... the end of the Time War seems the obvious choice. But the Eccleston and Tennant Doctors never seemed to have any problem talking about it, taking the blame for it, etc. Not sure why it would have to be a buried (non-)Doctor.

Nth Chevron
May 21st, 2013, 05:17 PM
It wasnt mentioned in any episodes nor is it part of anything televised.

I read on a website that has alot of interesting stuff, as nothing has been set in stone by the series yet i took it to be the most plausible possibility of what happened for a number of reasons.

- The Doctors aversion to guns, especially 9th in "Dalek"
- The Dalek Emperor in "The parting of the Ways" describing the Doctors "Inferno"
- In "The End of Time," the seer woman describes Gallifrey on burning.
- The removal of Gallifrey and the TL's from ever existing and creating the web of time is why history is more susceptible to changes since the TW

Possibly a few others but i cant remember them right now, i cant remember the site of the top of my head but will look the link up and you can decide for yourselves.

http://www.whoniverse.net/tardis/
http://meshyfish.com/~roo/index.html

Also, with the airing of "The name of the Doctor" some of the information from link #2 has been made incorrect. Until the events of the TW become canon by the televised series i dont mind have a place holder we can speculate about. Ofcourse it could also be that with the 50th special and/or the 8x01 in November, the information on this site could be brought back into the realm of possibility :)

Happy Reading

N.C

Sealurk
May 21st, 2013, 05:50 PM
Ah cool, thanks NC. I must admit, I don't consider anything but the show to be canon, but it can definitely be interesting to see what might have been, or what could now be considered defunct timelines.

I'm going to be very interested to find out just what the Hurt Doctor (a name I suspect will prove to be unusually appropriate for more reasons than one) did that was so bad as to cause him to be stripped of the name and all knowledge of his existence covered up, removed or worse by his other incarnations... who, let's face it, aren't exactly strangers to bloodshed and death and doing terrible things for good reasons.

As The Flyattractor said though, I am very glad the 50th will be focusing on the Doctor himself in perhaps the best way possible. Ah well, only one hundred and eighty five days, seventeen hours and ten minutes (approximately) to go until we find out!

min min light
May 21st, 2013, 06:29 PM
I'm going to be very interested to find out just what the Hurt Doctor (a name I suspect will prove to be unusually appropriate for more reasons than one) did that was so bad as to cause him to be stripped of the name and all knowledge of his existence covered up, removed or worse by his other incarnations... who, let's face it, aren't exactly strangers to bloodshed and death and doing terrible things for good reasons.

And that reminded me of what the reveal of his name could possible be that would be a shock, so now I wonder - maybe it's another piece of semantics, like "(in) the name of the doctor" and "the fall of the 11th" (the Tardis literally falls, or 11 is the date - take your pick). I hope not, because I hate these just-semantics mysteries.

Coco Pops
May 21st, 2013, 06:44 PM
And that reminded me of what the reveal of his name could possible be that would be a shock, so now I wonder - maybe it's another piece of semantics, like "(in) the name of the doctor" and "the fall of the 11th" (the Tardis literally falls, or 11 is the date - take your pick). I hope not, because I hate these just-semantics mysteries.

His name might well be "bloodwind"

Your post just made that pop into my head.

Coco Pops
May 21st, 2013, 06:47 PM
Did anyone notice this?

http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/crack.jpg

From the episode "Journey to the centre of the TARDIS" very similar to those other cracks in season 5

Quizziard
May 21st, 2013, 10:01 PM
I've seen at least one other thread somewhere spotting it. But, if they needed an excuse for him to be able to pass the BFB back to himself, how many ways are there for the graphics people to draw "a crack"?

Coco Pops
May 21st, 2013, 11:51 PM
I've seen at least one other thread somewhere spotting it. But, if they needed an excuse for him to be able to pass the BFB back to himself, how many ways are there for the graphics people to draw "a crack"?


Yeah I know...... I was just thinking out loud, wondering "what if?"

fumblesmcstupid
May 22nd, 2013, 01:23 AM
Two words had me in tears.

"Goodbye Sweetie"

*sniffs*

Greenee
May 22nd, 2013, 02:03 AM
Woh, you lot have been buissy last night. Interesting speculations there. But did it occur to anyone but me, that this Hurt-Doctor (verry speaking name, indeed) might not be just one speciffic regeneration but rather a part rom his charakter, this soul if you like. It could still be connected with a specific incident, like the Time War or something yet to happen, a part of his "soul" which comes to the surface because somthing forces the worst of him to show up. Or it is something ling deep inside, growing with all the blood he's shedding over the years, by saving others. That is something I like of this show. The goodnes of the doctor never stays unquestiond, that it is looking at him from the other side, not from the side we stay at, the so called "good side", the humeans and all the other (more or less) innocent populations/species but from the point of view of his enemys (dalecs, cybermen...), like the G.I. pointetd out.
But all the same, this secret, hidden Doctor goes well with my theorie that the dangours thing about the Question "doctor who?" is not his real name, the name some parents gave a child a long long time ago, but who he realy IS inside and what happens if he (or maybe only others) starts to question himself/who he is, if he is the good man (the good god) or is he rather dangerous (not only to his enemys but to everybody and the whole universe. SO than this might have been THE visit to transalore, and his fall has just started but isn't finished yet.

Only speculating here. Anyway: November is going to be very interesting.



Two words had me in tears.

"Goodbye Sweetie"

*sniffs*

I was in tears longe minutes before these words.

Nth Chevron
May 22nd, 2013, 03:28 AM
I wonder why the Doctor takes responsibility for the actions of the Hurt-Doctor when his existence has been suppressed by his other incarnations.

He said the Hurt-Doctor was him but not the Doctor, but if what the Doctor was admitting to was done by the HurDoc that betrayed the name choice of Doctor and even the Doctor said it wasnt him and they keep him buried, then admitting his actions as his own is like saying its him that did it but he is the Doctor and those actions are not something the Doctor would do.

Good luck lol

N.C

Greenee
May 22nd, 2013, 03:38 AM
I wonder why the Doctor takes responsibility for the actions of the Hurt-Doctor when his existence has been suppressed by his other incarnations.

He said the Hurt-Doctor was him but not the Doctor, but if what the Doctor was admitting to was done by the HurDoc that betrayed the name choice of Doctor and even the Doctor said it wasnt him and they keep him buried, then admitting his actions as his own is like saying its him that did it but he is the Doctor and those actions are not something the Doctor would do.

Good luck lol

N.C

Someone help be unknot my brain, please?

Sealurk
May 22nd, 2013, 05:18 AM
I think it might come down to this: a lot of people know the Doctor was responsible for ending the Time War, so he won't refute that and even actively admits that he was responsible. In general terms, he possibly doesn't have a problem with this going by some of the things Nine, Ten and Eleven have said.

But - as far as I'm aware he has never said how he ended the war. I think that's the point - that he ended the war is not in doubt and is not the secret, but precisely what he did to end it is never discussed, was immediately suppressed and was enough to justify burying the Hurt Doctor's very existence and stripping him of the title.

Coco Pops
May 22nd, 2013, 06:21 AM
I think it might come down to this: a lot of people know the Doctor was responsible for ending the Time War, so he won't refute that and even actively admits that he was responsible. In general terms, he possibly doesn't have a problem with this going by some of the things Nine, Ten and Eleven have said.

But - as far as I'm aware he has never said how he ended the war. I think that's the point - that he ended the war is not in doubt and is not the secret, but precisely what he did to end it is never discussed, was immediately suppressed and was enough to justify burying the Hurt Doctor's very existence and stripping him of the title.



Which is rather silly considering that person is the same person ...... Regeneration might be the only acceptable way to have multiple personality disorder ..... Seems very disordered to me.

Greenee
May 22nd, 2013, 06:37 AM
I think it might come down to this: a lot of people know the Doctor was responsible for ending the Time War, so he won't refute that and even actively admits that he was responsible. In general terms, he possibly doesn't have a problem with this going by some of the things Nine, Ten and Eleven have said.

But - as far as I'm aware he has never said how he ended the war. I think that's the point - that he ended the war is not in doubt and is not the secret, but precisely what he did to end it is never discussed, was immediately suppressed and was enough to justify burying the Hurt Doctor's very existence and stripping him of the title.

Wasn't it said in "Jurneys end" that they where rather trapt in the Time void ore something like that? So that they somewho are not dead but "just" banned from the universe/reality which is as good as dead (but which was teh reason for the TL to be able to retur with the help of teh Master and this White-point star) (- something which reminded me very hard of the slow-time envolope-thing and the planet Kricket in Adam's H2G2, by the way). And yes, I might have mixed up some details here.

P-90_177
May 22nd, 2013, 12:45 PM
Wasn't it said in "Jurneys end" that they where rather trapt in the Time void ore something like that? So that they somewho are not dead but "just" banned from the universe/reality which is as good as dead (but which was teh reason for the TL to be able to retur with the help of teh Master and this White-point star) (- something which reminded me very hard of the slow-time envolope-thing and the planet Kricket in Adam's H2G2, by the way). And yes, I might have mixed up some details here.

My understanding of it is that they are trapped at the moment of the planets destruction. The planet is burning. The events in "The End of Time" which showed their brief return was a plan put into action by Rassilon as a last ditch effort to save the planet. But in the end it failed and now the Timelords are again locked at the moment of destruction.

Greenee
May 22nd, 2013, 01:10 PM
Ah, ok. Thanks for the explanation.

The Flyattractor
May 23rd, 2013, 03:23 AM
Wait.. When the Doctor was Not the Doctor...could he be ...Merlin?

Quizziard
May 23rd, 2013, 10:11 AM
At the end, I was expecting Cumberbatch to turn round.. the profile even looked like him

The Flyattractor
May 23rd, 2013, 10:14 AM
Don't say that out loud. Moffats might here you and his head might expoldw with the awesome.

Greenee
May 23rd, 2013, 10:20 AM
At the end, I was expecting Cumberbatch to turn round.. the profile even looked like him

Oh, this would have been too good to be true... :D ;)

The Flyattractor
May 23rd, 2013, 10:57 AM
Now Cumberbatch would make an EXCELLENT Master....

Tristen1
May 23rd, 2013, 12:46 PM
First post on Board - so hallo everyone.

My immediate thought was that in The Beast Below, the Doctor when planning and acting to destroy the intelligence centre of the Space Whale said he would have to chose a new name because he wouldn't be "The Doctor" any more. So this Hurt character is a regeneration who has done something terrible by Timelord standards, and most people here think it is the ending of the Time War and the way that the Doctor ended it. However, the Moff might have something even worse in mind !

Coco Pops
May 23rd, 2013, 04:24 PM
First post on Board - so hallo everyone.

My immediate thought was that in The Beast Below, the Doctor when planning and acting to destroy the intelligence centre of the Space Whale said he would have to chose a new name because he wouldn't be "The Doctor" any more. So this Hurt character is a regeneration who has done something terrible by Timelord standards, and most people here think it is the ending of the Time War and the way that the Doctor ended it. However, the Moff might have something even worse in mind !

Or something lamer

Ian-S
May 23rd, 2013, 06:18 PM
My best guess is what I previously wrote, or he is indeed pre-Doctor, before he nicked the Tardis. I'm sure I remember somewhere along the timeline someone (possibly even the Doctor himself) say that he was in prison, escaped, then stole the Tardis (I probably have that wrong cos I've watched so much Who over the years but it's something I keep remembering).

Also I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice on most regenerations the Doctor get's progressively younger looking, definitely in this reboot he does, but also in the original series he did too mostly, it was probably unintentional at first, but if the writers realised and decided to use it long term, it would also support the "pre-Doctor" theory, what with Hurt-Doctor looking like he's just picked up his pension from the Post Office.

min min light
May 23rd, 2013, 06:55 PM
I think he gets progressively younger for the same reason that his companions are generally pretty young women.

Quizziard
May 23rd, 2013, 09:17 PM
I think he gets progressively younger for the same reason that his companions are generally pretty young women.

To appeal to the viewing public?

min min light
May 24th, 2013, 12:26 AM
To appeal to the viewing public?

Yep! We are not going to be seeing an old balding beer-gutted male doctor and his obese menopausal female companion.

Sealurk
May 24th, 2013, 01:29 AM
On the subject of the actors playing the Doctor getting younger, I'm fairly sure I remember hearing that when Moffat took over, he allegedly wanted an older Doctor than Tennant but he was blown away by Smith's acting when he auditioned (can anybody confirm or otherwise?). I know I was part of the "he's too young!" crowd until I actually watched The Eleventh Hour, and now, while I would appreciate a slightly more mature actor in the role once Smith steps down, I think acting ability and an understanding of the role prove more important.

Ian-S
May 24th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Yep! We are not going to be seeing an old balding beer-gutted male doctor and his obese menopausal female companion.

or the balding beer-gutted male doctor and his teenage assistant, don't think that would go down too well :lol:

Robert Carlisle was Moff's first choice iirc.

Greenee
May 24th, 2013, 09:32 AM
First post on Board - so hallo everyone.

My immediate thought was that in The Beast Below, the Doctor when planning and acting to destroy the intelligence centre of the Space Whale said he would have to chose a new name because he wouldn't be "The Doctor" any more. So this Hurt character is a regeneration who has done something terrible by Timelord standards, and most people here think it is the ending of the Time War and the way that the Doctor ended it. However, the Moff might have something even worse in mind !

Wellcome, than :)


On the subject of the actors playing the Doctor getting younger, I'm fairly sure I remember hearing that when Moffat took over, he allegedly wanted an older Doctor than Tennant but he was blown away by Smith's acting when he auditioned (can anybody confirm or otherwise?). I know I was part of the "he's too young!" crowd until I actually watched The Eleventh Hour, and now, while I would appreciate a slightly more mature actor in the role once Smith steps down, I think acting ability and an understanding of the role prove more important.

Yeah, I've heard an interview resently where he said, he didn't want an u30 year old doctor but than, Smith came along (and who could blame him for chosing him? I think he is a brillant actor and a wonderfull doctor, and by now not under 30 anymore, is he? ;)).

But what do you guys say to my theorie the Hurt Doctor isn't a specific regeneration (past or future) but something diffrent, something that lys underneth his character, or something? Completly rubbish or a possibility?

stargatefan234
May 24th, 2013, 09:41 AM
But what do you guys say to my theorie the Hurt Doctor isn't a specific regeneration (past or future) but something diffrent, something that lys underneth his character, or something? Completly rubbish or a possibility?

That is my preferred resolution, I dont want Moffat messing with past regenerations

Greenee
May 24th, 2013, 10:05 AM
Nice, not to be alone there than :)

min min light
May 24th, 2013, 09:19 PM
Robert Carlisle was Moff's first choice iirc.

I love him to pieces so that would have been great too, but he's still good-looking. And kind of ageless in a way.


But what do you guys say to my theorie the Hurt Doctor isn't a specific regeneration (past or future) but something diffrent, something that lys underneth his character, or something? Completly rubbish or a possibility?

I agree that this would be much better than messing with past regenerations, and I like it.

Coco Pops
May 25th, 2013, 12:38 AM
But what do you guys say to my theorie the Hurt Doctor isn't a specific regeneration (past or future) but something diffrent, something that lys underneth his character, or something? Completly rubbish or a possibility?



I kind of like that........ But even if he's the Valeyard that doesn't mess with anything. We know the Valeyard exists. We just don't know what happened after Trial Of A Timelord. Maybe he escaped

cosmichobo
May 25th, 2013, 02:39 AM
Not sure if it was here or GallifreyBase, but someone pointed out - the Valeyard was pure evil, whereas the HURT Doctor, from the minute bit of dialogue to date, doesn't seem to fit that image. Oh - and the fact 11 says that HURT did something to stop them calling him Doctor... Doesn't fit the Valeyard...

Of course - it could well just mean it's the Valeyard V2, re-imagined for the modern era... And I'd be ok with that. I'd MUCH rather him be revealed as the Valeyard, rather than a "missing" Doctor...

Quizziard
May 25th, 2013, 11:21 AM
The "for peace" part seems obvious (at least, in a non-Moff universe) but "for sanity" is a little more open...

Sealurk
May 25th, 2013, 11:58 AM
Although Moffat's probably got something ingenious prepared, for now I'm guessing the 'for sanity' part is a reference to just how nightmarish and insane the conflict had become - if what Ten said in The End of Time is anything to go by.

Coco Pops
May 25th, 2013, 09:25 PM
Not sure if it was here or GallifreyBase, but someone pointed out - the Valeyard was pure evil, whereas the HURT Doctor, from the minute bit of dialogue to date, doesn't seem to fit that image. Oh - and the fact 11 says that HURT did something to stop them calling him Doctor... Doesn't fit the Valeyard...

Of course - it could well just mean it's the Valeyard V2, re-imagined for the modern era... And I'd be ok with that. I'd MUCH rather him be revealed as the Valeyard, rather than a "missing" Doctor...



See I don't get that. Why does a character need to be "reimagined for the modern era?"

Quizziard
May 25th, 2013, 11:09 PM
See I don't get that. Why does a character need to be "reimagined for the modern era?"

Philosophically, rather than specifically: because they're "old-fashioned" and out of touch with modernity in one or more ways: purpose, method, manners, attitude, abilities, style, language...

Back in the 1970s there was a show about a rascist Londoner, which highlighted how stupid and self-defeating rascism was. They can't even show parts of it now, because of the changing view on rascism in the last 30 years. Doesn't stop them "re-imagining" a new version to make the same point but in a slightly different way.

Nth Chevron
May 26th, 2013, 02:59 AM
Correct me if i am wrong, but when the Valeyard errm becomes alive i suppose, doest the TARDIS feed of' the evil deeds and change color? I vaguely remember reading something about the TARDIS becoming a black box with red light on top.

And to all the Robert Carlisle people, i am sorry, so very sorry, i love the actor aswell dont get me wrong, but, JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR, is easily twice as epic :P

If JH doesnt play the Valeyard then RC can still jump in as said evil incarnation :)

N.C

Teddybrown
May 26th, 2013, 04:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvZMSrktskw&feature=player_embedded

Clarence and the Whipsermen.
Explains how he got the co ordinates

stargatefan234
May 26th, 2013, 04:54 AM
Clarence and the Whipsermen.
Explains how he got the co ordinates

Also explains more who the whispermen were, "We are The Intelligence". that bit should have been in the episode!

Greenee
May 26th, 2013, 08:00 AM
It surely should have.

P-90_177
May 26th, 2013, 08:27 AM
If the episode had been an hour rather than 45 minutes long it surely would have been. However it does give away that the whisper are the GI a little early.

min min light
May 26th, 2013, 06:29 PM
I think it was a bad choice to not have their mouths move - it makes them look like a cheap cartoon instead of something scary. (But overall, they just remind me too much of their Buffy brethren.)

Coco Pops
May 27th, 2013, 07:52 AM
Actually I wanted to think the Whisper were related to The Silence. Want them back, and the mad monks

The Flyattractor
May 27th, 2013, 09:32 AM
or the balding beer-gutted male doctor and his teenage assistant, don't think that would go down too well :lol:

We will get to see that Doctor if Colin Baker makes an app in the 50th... ( but I still like colin anyway)


Actually I wanted to think the Whisper were related to The Silence. Want them back, and the mad monks They looked like the Faceless ones to me,but I knew that Moffat wasn't going to go there...although they kind of would of fit seeing as how the GI and Ice Warriors got to make apperances this season.



and his obese menopausal female companion.

Really? Didn't we kinda get that with Donna?

Quizziard
May 27th, 2013, 10:36 AM
Really? Didn't we kinda get that with Donna?

And yet was one of the better companions because she was mature enough not to be fawning and falling in love, yet innocent enough in time travel to be the foil a companion provides.

The Flyattractor
May 27th, 2013, 10:41 AM
And yet was one of the better companions because she was mature enough not to be fawning and falling in love, yet innocent enough in time travel to be the foil a companion provides.

That is a matter of opinion and better not discussed in this thread.

Coco Pops
May 27th, 2013, 10:06 PM
That is a matter of opinion and better not discussed in this thread.


Why can't we discuss the merits of Donna?

Edi
May 27th, 2013, 11:00 PM
Emm, hmm, err..
I havent seen the pre-time-war episodes (yet! :) ), but I live around this forum and other sources and have red about them - if Hurt is Valeyard (or if he is not, but someone else will be in the future of the Doctor), how could Valeyard possibly get to pre-time-war Galifrey (The trial happened on Galifrey, didnt it? It defiantly happened with the time lords (?)), if the whole thing is in a time lock and the Time Loards essentially do not exist?

cosmichobo
May 28th, 2013, 04:33 AM
Edi

The Valeyard is the dark side of the Doctor... In "Trial" (which was actually not set on Gallifrey, but on a space station at an undisclosed location), we learn that the Valeyard is trying to take over the Doctor's remaining regenerations, so as to actually have an ongoing existence...

It was never really explained how he actually physically existed in the first place, and why he would need to steal the Doctor's regenerations when he clearly simply could exist in the first place... But regardless, there's no indication (to me at least) that he was trapped in the Time War...

Indeed, as the Doctor is free, I'd suggest the Valeyard would be free as well.

(And, for what it's worth...
An Unearthly Child (episode 1, start of ep 2)
The Mind Robber
The Time Warrior
Genesis of the Daleks
Earthshock
The Ultimate Foe (episodes 13 & 14 of Trial) (purely topical)
Dragonfire

There's a list of great episodes, one for each classic Doctor, if the mood takes you... The middle 3 should please, as they feature familiar bad guys...)

The Flyattractor
May 28th, 2013, 08:58 AM
Why can't we discuss the merits of Donna?
Cause I don't wanna get another :weiranime34: and or banning from the Mods. And its not that Donna can't be discussed just that this isn't a Donna Thread and it would be derailing the topic.

And didn't they kind of point out in the episode that what ever The NotDoctor was involved in wasn't the Time War?

Coco Pops
May 28th, 2013, 08:15 PM
Oh a "Wier icon" is a banning :)

I like Wier....

BTW I might start a Donna thread

Bagpuss
May 29th, 2013, 12:55 AM
Nobody's being banned,Coco.Sometimes a smilicon's just a smilicon...:)

Your new "Donna Appreciation" thread's been merged into this one : HERE (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/56905-Donna-Noble-Catherine-Tate-WOW-Discussion-Appreciation),just so you know.
( You'll notice your own older posts are in there.)

If you want to discuss that merge ,pm me ,so this thread can go back to discussion of what happened in the Finale.

cosmichobo
May 29th, 2013, 04:32 AM
:) Just gotta share this...

So there's a guy called Babelfish who has posted segments of Classic B&W WHO on YouTube that he's colourised... Eventually he was sought out to help to re-colour ep1 of Mind of Evil, frame by frame, because it couldn't be coloured using other methods.

Babelfish was at one stage asked if he was interested in working on the footage that was used in The Name of the Doctor, to which he said hell yes, however that was the last he heard of it...

There's been some criticism against the footage that was used in the episode, and the colouring of it... and this is what he had to say:


Give a monkey a word processor and it's not going to produce the works of Shakespeare; give some colourising software to a monkey and you're going to get The Name of the Doctor. It's a very simple equation....

:)

I actually felt that the audio wasn't terribly professional either... (of the First Doctor) That is - it didn't sit nicely in context...

Coco Pops
May 29th, 2013, 06:55 AM
Nobody's being banned,Coco.Sometimes a smilicon's just a smilicon...:)

Your new "Donna Appreciation" thread's been merged into this one : HERE (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/56905-Donna-Noble-Catherine-Tate-WOW-Discussion-Appreciation),just so you know.
( You'll notice your own older posts are in there.)

If you want to discuss that merge ,pm me ,so this thread can go back to discussion of what happened in the Finale.


No problems here. I forgot about the existing thread

The Flyattractor
May 29th, 2013, 09:07 PM
Nobody's being banned,Coco.Sometimes a smilicon's just a smilicon...:)

.

Yeah... Baggy wil ban me....

Sealurk
June 1st, 2013, 01:07 PM
Thought in progress: could the Hurt Doctor's being disowned have some relation to the Doctor's regeneration limit... could he have stolen somebody's regeneration cycle?

cosmichobo
June 1st, 2013, 03:14 PM
What limit?

NewWho hasn't acknowledged it... and I doubt they will... (well, though we did get the Valeyard reference, unless Hurt IS the Valeyard (unlikely), then it still wasn't affirmed that he was between the Doctor's "twelfth and final incarnation" (direct quote from Ultimate Foe).)

tomstone
June 10th, 2013, 02:41 AM
I am new at Doctor Who and just got through the Amy Pond Story till now. I got to say I love it and I see I still have alot to watch to get some of the references you Guys make. I just wanted to put my view of this Season finale out there. So please dont rip my head off if I get something wrong. :D

I also think this wasnt THE visit to Transalore. If it where, the Silence would be all over it. Nevertheless seing the Dead Tardis was cool and am I the only one that got the Impression the Tardis preserved the Doctor in a way? He replaced the Center Console after all. Also its weird how just the Disguese of the Tardis grew and not the actual entrance of the Ship.

As for the Hurt Doctor. I am still split. The Doctor obviously knows what the other one did, but since we are in a Time Travel Story there is no reason he couldnt know it from crossing paths with a Future self or something like that. I know he shouldnt cross his own Timestream, but he jumped into it in this Episode for christ sake.

On the other Hand if it was a previous Version, then it would have to be a seperated Regeneration of the Doctor. Since otherwise the Broken Promise stuff doesnt make any sense.

On a Final note on a Rewatch I noticed they where in Transalore in the last scene. Why would we encounter the old Doctor there? The other Doctors just ran by and this one probably stayed, because it was his Scar at the end of the Doctors Timestream when Clara finished going through his Timeline. They where at the end.

Brother Freyr
June 11th, 2013, 02:10 PM
One thing I was a bit unclear on -- was the River in this episode supposed to be the post-death Library backup River? That's definitely the impression I had, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how that's possible. :confused:That's a great question, and I don't recall seeing a satisfactory explanation. There's much to love about this episode, but the telepathic, time-traveling, dream-state is awful. It's made more non-sensical by including "post-death backup River," who exists only in the data banks of the Library. What were TPTB thinking? Utterly ludicrous story elements cause confusion and diminish enjoyment of the story. I guess you'll all hate me for aiming critcism at this episode that everyone's praising, but this spoiled my immersion in the story.

Quizziard
June 11th, 2013, 09:58 PM
I guess you'll all hate me for aiming critcism at this episode that everyone's praising, but this spoiled my immersion in the story.

No, you're right (philosophically, if nothing else). And I agree with the specific, as well. It might have worked, as a concept, if it was simply communication within the same time period, but the cross-time part was just silly (as a method) without perhaps some sort of additional gadget.

Tristen1
June 26th, 2013, 12:09 PM
I loved the séance, and the idea that through it they could communicate across time.

And, I loved the idea of River "existing" in the TARDIS. I think it made me start to consider how very alien the Doctor is. For us it would be absurd to have an actual version of a loved one so firm in reality we could kiss them, but for a Timelord ? I like the idea.

The episode suffered for me in one major respect. Due to the restraints on what they could show of previous Doctors Clara's rescues were very rushed. I think it could have been better to focuss on one or two of the more recent Doctors and shoot actual footage. I think too that the episode should have been at least longer or a 2-parter.

That said, it was o.k. given all the restraints of time etc. that the show suffers from in the U.K.

Coco Pops
June 26th, 2013, 05:31 PM
That's a great question, and I don't recall seeing a satisfactory explanation. There's much to love about this episode, but the telepathic, time-traveling, dream-state is awful. It's made more non-sensical by including "post-death backup River," who exists only in the data banks of the Library. What were TPTB thinking? Utterly ludicrous story elements cause confusion and diminish enjoyment of the story. I guess you'll all hate me for aiming critcism at this episode that everyone's praising, but this spoiled my immersion in the story.


I agree with all of those points. Second viewing of the episode for me ruined any potential fun I might have had. I was thing about the very stuff you had mentioned.

MrEd1177
June 26th, 2013, 08:29 PM
many thoughts running through my over active head having now watched this episode and the various related ones shown from the flash backs Clara was in... first off Clara is no ordinary human and has not been since the GI upgraded her computer skills to simply Beyond Brilliant. As the Doctor repeatedly calls her, she is his impossible Girl...so here's the thing... I strongly suspect She is actually the Dr's Daughter...okay, let me re-qualify this...his "adopted" daughter via River Song (the backed up memories of River) adopting Charlotte Abigail Lux in The Library's data base. Thought I was going to point to the actual Doctors Daughter, Jenny...more on her in a bit...probably to return season 8 I suspect.

Crazy? Hardly, if you watch this episode over again you'll see the only time Tennant's Dr #10 is shown is a scene from a balcony from "Silence of the Library" looking out over the forests of buildings/books... presumably for this theory CAL/Clara was in the floating camera we saw her communicating through in the Library with Donna and the Doctor.

part two of the craziness... Hurt's Dr is potentially the regeneration of or an aged Tennant from his Bio-Crisis Dr 10/Tennant. He committed Genocide with the end of season 4 where we saw The Stolen Earth and he reversed the death ray onto all the darleks... The real Dr sent him away with Rose with the hope Rose would be able to fix him as she had helped fix him... The 3/4 Human Dr 10 clone could very easily be the Doctor gone wrong from the other time-stream.

Think this through...if not for Donna, Jack, Mickey, Sarah Jane Smith, and Martha keeping Tennants Dr grounded and helping form his personality up ("Left Turn" showing the most dramatic effect a companion may have) to the Waters of Mars and him drawing the conclusion he wasn't as he had viewed himself through guilt as a survivor. He may have actually concluded he was simply the last one standing i.e. Time Lord Victorious. With that type of power and knowledge the Path the other Dr surely may have taken may have been to be different...trying to control Time rather then being an observer and reluctant participant.

sorry.... okay, Back to the CAL/Clara deal... for all we know River didn't Really Die and she may have been "Saved" after the first download of 4022 others allowed Clara/CAL to upload and save her before death...we never saw a body... plus she could exist once Clara was in the Dr's time-stream because Clara hadn't really left and still existed within the Tardis... further how hard would it have been for the Dr to upload all of the Library at some point...he hates goodbye's so he may have at some future point returned to the library and uploaded the database or simply moved it into the Tardis...it is smaller on the outside...something only Clara has ever noted.

MrEd1177
June 27th, 2013, 08:01 PM
sorry.... okay, Back to the CAL/Clara deal... for all we know River didn't Really Die and she may have been "Saved" after the first download of 4022 others allowed Clara/CAL to upload and save her before death...we never saw a body... plus she could exist once Clara was in the Dr's time-stream because Clara hadn't really left and still existed within the Tardis... further how hard would it have been for the Dr to upload all of the Library at some point...he hates goodbye's so he may have at some future point returned to the library and uploaded the database or simply moved it into the Tardis...it is smaller on the outside...something only Clara has ever noted.
:jack:
One other last note...River in Meeting David Tennant knew immediately he was the Dr...but she indicated "I've never seen you this young" Could that have been the earliest spoiler that Tennant may return as the real Dr made possible with the presence of his 3/4 Human self when Matt Smith regenerates...??? what better foreshadowing than..."I don't wanna go!"

Greenee
June 28th, 2013, 12:59 AM
:jack:
One other last note...River in Meeting David Tennant knew immediately he was the Dr...but she indicated "I've never seen you this young" Could that have been the earliest spoiler that Tennant may return as the real Dr made possible with the presence of his 3/4 Human self when Matt Smith regenerates...??? what better foreshadowing than..."I don't wanna go!"

Why would that mean he's coming back? Since they've always been meeting in the wrong order it just means, it's the last/first time they see each other before River "dies". What comes after that, and if they find a way to bring her back some how (so we get to see a post library River) is another story (well, literary).

maneth
July 23rd, 2013, 09:04 AM
The trance thing was a bit odd, but I did like getting an explanation re Clara.

nathan MCD
October 6th, 2013, 09:37 AM
Emm, hmm, err..
I havent seen the pre-time-war episodes (yet! :) ), but I live around this forum and other sources and have red about them - if Hurt is Valeyard (or if he is not, but someone else will be in the future of the Doctor), how could Valeyard possibly get to pre-time-war Galifrey (The trial happened on Galifrey, didnt it? It defiantly happened with the time lords (?)), if the whole thing is in a time lock and the Time Loards essentially do not exist?

assuming the timelock also prevents someone interfering in timelord history before the war there is only one way around it. the valeyard is (in some way) the doctor, it has been noted someone can travel back on their timestream if they were in the war like dalek caan. e.g. nothing can get in or out except something that was already there, the valeyard could therefore travel back on the doctor's own timeline to the war or before. (time war fanfics!) only problem with his plan is that if the valeyard succeeded in his plan, then all off history affected by the doctor after that point would be rewritten.

gateship15
December 4th, 2013, 08:06 PM
I really really loved this episode. it showed what happens when the doctor dies and shows how Clara can be in all those places at once living and dying. I also loved her seeing all sides to the doctor. we'll all regenarations of the doctor including one he wants to forget it was well written and well acted.

Travelfun1017
January 31st, 2014, 08:28 AM
Still kind of confused about Clara. I got the impression that she was reincarnated since the 1st doctor but I am not sure because of the timeline. I think if she was reincarnated, she did not remember the first time around that until she was scattered through the Doctor's timestream.

TricksterofU
June 4th, 2014, 07:01 PM
Great episode, and a very interesting back story to how Clara kept popping up.
Sad about the cliffhanger at the end as we would have to wait 'till November.
Still a great episode overall, and goes to show how much people will sacrifice to keep the Doctor's name a secret.

Nolamom
August 30th, 2014, 04:39 PM
"five foot one and crying... you never stood a chance". Great line :D

Amy Pond
July 30th, 2015, 12:49 AM
Great episode. I was actually looking forward to Clara becoming this character that would come and go throughout the Doctor's time stream and just randomly pop up in an episode and tell the Doctor what to do.