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GateWorld
March 22nd, 2013, 10:15 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-rings-of-akhaten/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-rings-of-akhaten-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SERIES 33</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-rings-of-akhaten/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE RINGS OF AKHATEN</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3308 (708)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">The Doctor takes Clara to the inhabited rings of Akhaten, where the young Queen of Years faces a ritual that may require she sacrifice her soul to a slumbering god.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-rings-of-akhaten/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Teddybrown
April 6th, 2013, 10:58 AM
I see you lurking Sealurk... =P
Hmm, not as good as TBOSJ, but still quite good.
Nothing really to add from the Clara mystery, but nice to see how the leaf came about and how it was used to save the day.
Nice to see so many aliens in one place too.

Looking forward to next week and the return of the Ice Warriors!

BruTak
April 6th, 2013, 11:04 AM
Meh, decidedly average I thought.

Wouldn't mind a space moped though.

Quizziard
April 6th, 2013, 11:10 AM
A bit hand-wavey science-fictiony. But it seemed that Guilermo Del Toro's production designer has been spending his holidays at the BBC..., along with the bloke who designed the Cantina in SW ep4:ANH.

However, I did like some of the interplay from Clara. Not happy to just jump into the snog box...

Blencathra
April 6th, 2013, 11:22 AM
That was a beautiful episode both aurally and visually. I can't wait for series 7 CD to come out. The story itself wasn't too special but the visuals were so stunning I wasn't particularly bothered about it. What a shame The Mill is closing down it's TV special effects department.

The Doctor's speech nearly had me in tears. Well done Matt Smith.

The thing is, unless it's a continuity error, the leaf in TBoSJ is different from the leaf in this episode. It's a different size and shape. The leaf in this episode must just relate to Clara's parents (again unless it's continuity)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8251/8624423087_d0aa2349ea_z.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8246/8624425481_22704bbc3b_z.jpg


I thought it was interesting the Doctor says she reminds him of someone who died. Also that in the flash back to Clara's childhood we never see her Mum pregnant. Both fit with my River theory. ;)

Sealurk
April 6th, 2013, 11:32 AM
Hmm. That was okay I suppose, but I found about halfway through I wasn't paying much attention, instead preferring to check my emails or read the Mass Effect wiki.

I hope this picks up a bit soon, because I wasn't hugely impressed with the first half of series seven if I'm honest, not compared to most of the prior seasons. Though I'm glad to be rid of Amy, I'm not sure I like Clara all that much - not that I dislike her per se, but she doesn't seem that interesting or interested and while this may well be part of her story the mystery surrounding her just doesn't have me intrigued.

dipsofjazz
April 6th, 2013, 11:34 AM
:D I enjoyed the music in this episode, but I found the story a bit meh. At least we know a bit more about Clara's story.

I see the Doctor is now quoting from Blade Runner.." Home Again Clickety Click".

BruTak
April 6th, 2013, 11:41 AM
I see the Doctor is now quoting from Blade Runner.." Home Again Clickety Click".

"Jiggety jig" actually, but yeah. And we almost got Rutger Hauer's "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..." speech.

The_Carpenter
April 6th, 2013, 11:48 AM
So..... was this doctor who's dreaded musical episode?

Have to say was not impressed! I assumed that the sacrifice was fatal hence all the fuss about saving the girl, and how exactly does one feed off things that could of been?

Hopefully next weeks will be better

BruTak
April 6th, 2013, 11:59 AM
I did like the nods to Indiana Jones.

stargatefan234
April 6th, 2013, 12:06 PM
Episode on a whole was average, but I really liked the ending! Especially the doctor facing the God.

Guess that explains the leaf.

A mention of Susan, hmmmm...

The TARDIS doesnt like Clara, nice touch :D

The Doctor asked Clara what she had been doing... what has he been doing?

Yes Clara, give the dog alien your ring so we can get the scouter and we can have a nice emotional scene... it's not like The Doctor has a TARDIS he could use instead... oh wait a moment. Also, just give her the screw driver, the TARDIS can just give you another one!

For a bunch of people about to have their souls eaten, the crowd looked pretty calm

Greenee
April 6th, 2013, 02:09 PM
That was a beautiful episode both audio and visually. I can't wait for series 7 CD to come out. The story itself wasn't too special but the visuals were so stunning I wasn't particularly bothered about it. What a shame The Mill is closing down it's TV special effects department.

"Beautyfull" is exectly the word I thought about. It's true there story itself wasn't that special. But that's what I like about it. I've always thought I like to see one or another eppisode where they manyly treval, whithout saving the universe. I can see why some people don't like this ep I thiks it's a good contrast to teh speed of last week's episode.


The Doctor's speech nearly had me in tears. Well done Matt Smith.

*dries tears* It made me cry. The speech, the song, the mood (don't care if it was cheesy).

The thing is, unless it's a continuity error, the leaf in TBoSJ is different from the leaf in this episode. It's a different size and shape. The leaf in this episode must just relate to Clara's parents (again unless it's continuity)

yeah, I noticed that. Mabe we'll see. Oh, I'm still not used to havving to wait a whole week till the next episode.

Morgania
April 6th, 2013, 03:30 PM
I liked the music and the Doctor's speech. Otherwise... meh.

min min light
April 6th, 2013, 08:48 PM
At one point I realized that I was actually bored, which surprised me more than anything that happened in the episode. It looked and sounded really pretty, but way too many things went from suspenseful to "oh get on with it."

Quizziard
April 6th, 2013, 10:24 PM
Also that in the flash back to Clara's childhood we never see her Mum pregnant. Both fit with my River theory. ;)
Well, we never see her changing nappies, but I guess it did happen... tricky to show the entire 24 years in flashback. Heck, we didn't even see the wedding IIRC.


So..... was this doctor who's dreaded musical episode?

Have to say was not impressed! I assumed that the sacrifice was fatal hence all the fuss about saving the girl, and how exactly does one feed off things that could of been?

Must admit, it was a bit slow, though not everything can be break-neck the whole time. I didn't see the post-mummy switcheroo coming. As for "could have been", isn't that what Weeping Angels consume, potential time/energy, so why not a god?

fumblesmcstupid
April 7th, 2013, 12:11 AM
I am so feaking mad. The audio track was off by 2 or 3 seconds so none of the dialogue matched their mouths. URRRGHHH. Totally ruined the episode.

BruTak
April 7th, 2013, 01:17 AM
Speaking of Clara's mum, who else noticed her maiden name? Ravenwood.

It was on the book Clara was holding (and crying on) as she stood by her mum's grave.

Does this mean that Clara's related to Indiana Jones? :D

Blencathra
April 7th, 2013, 02:16 AM
Speaking of Clara's mum, who else noticed her maiden name? Ravenwood.

It was on the book Clara was holding (and crying on) as she stood by her mum's grave.

Does this mean that Clara's related to Indiana Jones? :D

I noticed. And that Clara's parent's are called Ellie and Dave. Such a lot of leaf, tree and forest references. BTW Ella was the name of Donna's daughter in The Library (Forest of the Dead) and of course Other Dave and Proper Dave (who turned out the lights!) ended up downloaded into the Library as well.

Edit - Incidentally I don't actually believe that Proper Dave & Ellie are the real parents of Clara. Just that certain things are bleeding through to this world from The Library, names being one of them.

Greenee
April 7th, 2013, 02:43 AM
[QUOTE]Quote Originally Posted by BruTak View Post
Speaking of Clara's mum, who else noticed her maiden name? Ravenwood.

It was on the book Clara was holding (and crying on) as she stood by her mum's grave.

Does this mean that Clara's related to Indiana Jones?


I noticed. And that Clara's parent's are called Ellie and Dave. Such a lot of leaf, tree and forest references. BTW Ella was the name of Donna's daughter in The Library (Forest of the Dead) and of course Other Dave and Proper Dave (who turned out the lights!) ended up downloaded into the Library as well.[/QUOTE

I didn't neither of it. In what way was there an Indiana Jones refference? It's been ages since I've last seen it.

BruTak
April 7th, 2013, 04:49 AM
The other Indiana Jones reference was when the Doctor dropped the Sonic Screwdriver as he slid under the rapidly descending stone door, then grabbed it at the last moment.

Nolamom
April 7th, 2013, 05:25 AM
It was a lovely soundtrack. Great visuals. On Clara's mother telling her that she would always find her - so sad to think of that and the graveyard scene at the same time.

Coco Pops
April 7th, 2013, 06:24 AM
Loved the living sun...... Loved the flying moped. Loved the diverse population as they walked around the bazaar.......

Didn't love the use of the Sonic Screwdriver as an escape device. Gee wonder what it will do next week?

MasySyma
April 7th, 2013, 07:23 AM
Meh.

It wasn't the total train wreck of last week, but it wasn't stellar.

The Good:
Clara. Any scene she didn't share with the Doctor tended to work pretty well. I also appreciate that she calls the Doctor on his crud. She is no replacement.

The meh but tolerable:
Yet another 11 is mighty speech. Enough already. While I did think 11's epic issues were used well here, I'm tired of the close up and the almost whiny speech of why he is so powerful, important, blah, blah. It never works. It might as well say "and now the companion will act."

The Bad:
The story. 1. It's a mash up Rose's first trip, Amy's first trip, and the Satan's pit pair. 2. It also has a massive loop hole at the end, like many Doctor Nine episodes. The system's God has been destroyed. What holds the system together is gone, and the Doctor won't be there for the chaos and violence to follow.

The destiny/potential thing. 1. Who has got to quit the potential as energy source thing. It uses every five minutes and it gets old. 2. You can't have destiny and potential unused. If people are fated to meet, they are also fated to die. Hence, no potential for unused energy. It can't be both ways.

The episode in itself was not terrible, but it felt rushed. Given the gap fans have had to endure, the extra time does not appear to have been spent well.

Season 7 continues its mediocre streak.

P-90_177
April 7th, 2013, 07:34 AM
Great episode. Loved it. In fact I reckon it's a new favourite of mine in terms of being an audio and visual feast. In terms of beauty and the amount of feeling that the actors put into it I put it up there with "Vincent and the Doctor".

Bit of a boo boo regarding the different leaf. I'm going to assume that someone just didn't think and mislaid the real one. Or when they got to episode 2 they realised that the original leaf wasn't big enough to cover a whole persons face and make them walk into the road.

As for who Clara is, I'm reckoning now that it's something that'll happen to her in the future that will lead her to be spread across history. It did dawn on me a week ago that she could be the embodiment of the TARDIS since her attitude is not unlike Idris in a lot of ways. But I doubt that's the case.

I found it interesting that the Doctor was willing to allow his secret to be taken by the God. It would possibly make it the only other thing out there to know it. His speech had me really quite choked up though and I don't think I've ever seen the Doctor look so old. The wonderful thing about Matt Smith is that he does make the Doctor look and feel ancient.

Also can't wait for the soundtrack to this series to come out now.

The one thing that did irk me just a tiny bit is the seemingly Harry Potter like wand battle....... However I let it go because it still looked awesome. And the use of it to keep the door open doesn't bother me. I've already reconciled that part of it in my head.

Greenee
April 7th, 2013, 07:45 AM
The other Indiana Jones reference was when the Doctor dropped the Sonic Screwdriver as he slid under the rapidly descending stone door, then grabbed it at the last moment.

Sure, could have seen this myself. But who or what was named Ravenwood in Indiana Jones?

BruTak
April 7th, 2013, 07:54 AM
Sure, could have seen this myself. But who or what was named Ravenwood in Indiana Jones?

Marion Ravenwood (as played by Karen Allen). Also her father, Abner Ravenwood who's mentioned in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", and who according to Indy's backstory was his archaeology tutor

Commander Zelix
April 7th, 2013, 07:58 AM
Personally, I miss Russell T. Davies very much. I find Moffat's writings try to appeal too much to children instead of the children in us like Davies used to do. Russell T. Davies was more adult and balanced in that aspect. This episode is another example of that. Still the show is watchable but not as great as before.

P-90_177
April 7th, 2013, 08:04 AM
Personally, I miss Russell T. Davies very much. I find Moffat's writing try to appeal to much to children instead of the children in us like Davies used to do. Russell T. Davies was more adult and balanced in that aspect. This episode is another example of that. Still the show is watchable but not as great as before.

I actually find it the other way around. Although I enjoyed them at the time I found the Davis tenure to be terribly predictable. Monsters also were overly child friendly. The Slitheen, Dalek Pig mutants, Giant wasps, Upright Rhinos... the list kinda just goes on. Moffatt stories are more complex with far more thought put into who the enemy is. The last few series have been terribly thought provoking and surreal as well which is even better. Yes they also go more towards the 'it works because it works' way of presenting "science" but when it comes to Doctor Who I'd rather the science look like magic anyway since it adds to the wonder.

Sealurk
April 7th, 2013, 08:11 AM
Personally, I miss Russell T. Davies very much. I find Moffat's writing try to appeal to much to children instead of the children in us like Davies used to do. Russell T. Davies was more adult and balanced in that aspect. This episode is another example of that. Still the show is watchable but not as great as before.

In fairness this episode wasn't written by the Moff, but by Neil Cross, who hasn't written for Who before (he's the creator/writer behind the generally rather good Luther, though I'm not sure that ability translates so well to Who), but I do agree with you. I used to absolutely adore Steven Moffat's writing even before Doctor Who, and when he had only one or two episodes a series to do during RTD's tenure, they were pretty much the very best of the season. Now that he's literally and figuratively running the show, I think his writing has slowly got worse and he does seem to be edging more and more towards making it a children's show rather than something that is accessible to all ages.

Admiral Mappalazarou
April 7th, 2013, 08:43 AM
I loved this episode for its imagination and the Doctor's hearty speech. First thoughts were of whther or not the Akhaten sun is related to the same species we met in Series 3's 42. Probably not but just a thought :)

Purple Glow
April 7th, 2013, 09:02 AM
The basic formula for writing good fiction is to create interesting, compelling characters and torture them for 300 pages. How they react tells you something about them and makes it enjoyable. Maybe they rise, maybe they fall.

The Rings of Akhaten completely violates this principle.

1. The new characters created for this story are neither interesting nor compelling. The only character from this story with much of any english lines at all is the little girl, and she was not made compelling by them, imo. The antagonist was a blob with no speaking lines.

2. I didn't feel that a good job was done of conveying the threat to the audience.

As a result, you wound up a story filled with forgettable characters facing a boring threat.

The story didn't work.

BruTak
April 7th, 2013, 09:13 AM
I loved this episode for its imagination and the Doctor's hearty speech. First thoughts were of whther or not the Akhaten sun is related to the same species we met in Series 3's 42. Probably not but just a thought :)
Hmm, that never occurred to me.

P-90_177
April 7th, 2013, 09:16 AM
The basic formula for writing good fiction is to create interesting, compelling characters and torture them for 300 pages. How they react tells you something about them and makes it enjoyable. Maybe they rise, maybe they fall.

The Rings of Akhaten completely violates this principle.

1. The new characters created for this story are neither interesting nor compelling. The only character from this story with much of any english lines at all is the little girl, and she was not made compelling by them, imo. The antagonist was a blob with no speaking lines.

2. I didn't feel that a good job was done of conveying the threat to the audience.

As a result, you wound up a story filled with forgettable characters facing a boring threat.

The story didn't work.

Speaking as a writer, I rather dislike formula.

MasySyma
April 7th, 2013, 09:19 AM
But formula is the basis of most of the Moffat driven series. His episodes were amazing during the RTD era because he always avoided RTD's patterns, but now, he has embraced patterns, cliches, and a lack of complexity. It is only a matter of time until glowly Doctor returns.

Blencathra
April 7th, 2013, 09:20 AM
....

2. I didn't feel that a good job was done of conveying the threat to the audience.

As a result, you wound up a story filled with forgettable characters facing a boring threat.


I don't know about that. My daughter was quite scared. It depends on your age.

Commander Zelix
April 7th, 2013, 09:53 AM
In fairness this episode wasn't written by the Moff, but by Neil Cross, who hasn't written for Who before (he's the creator/writer behind the generally rather good Luther, though I'm not sure that ability translates so well to Who), but I do agree with you. I used to absolutely adore Steven Moffat's writing even before Doctor Who, and when he had only one or two episodes a series to do during RTD's tenure, they were pretty much the very best of the season. Now that he's literally and figuratively running the show, I think his writing has slowly got worse and he does seem to be edging more and more towards making it a children's show rather than something that is accessible to all ages.
Yes, it's strange because Moffat episodes were pretty good during the RTD era. But let's not forget about this episode and any past episodes that the showrunner often rewrites many part of the episode no matter who gets the writing credit on screen.

Admiral Mappalazarou
April 7th, 2013, 10:40 AM
Episode on a whole was average, but I really liked the ending! Especially the doctor facing the God.

Yes Clara, give the dog alien your ring so we can get the scouter and we can have a nice emotional scene... it's not like The Doctor has a TARDIS he could use instead...


If I remember rightly they needed the scooter because they needed to get to the pyramid, and the Doctor has said repeatedly that he never takes the Tardis into battle in case it ever falls into the wrong hands.

Blencathra
April 7th, 2013, 11:00 AM
If I remember rightly they needed the scooter because they needed to get to the pyramid, and the Doctor has said repeatedly that he never takes the Tardis into battle in case it ever falls into the wrong hands.

It's always amused me in "classic" Who the various ways in which the writers try to get rid of the TARDIS so the Doctor can't use it - dropping it off a cliff, have it floating in space, have it vanish because he forgot to deactivate the pause control etc etc.

BruTak
April 7th, 2013, 11:23 AM
And for the second week in a row, he doesn't close the TARDIS doors behind him.

What's that all about?

stargatefan234
April 7th, 2013, 11:24 AM
If I remember rightly they needed the scooter because they needed to get to the pyramid, and the Doctor has said repeatedly that he never takes the Tardis into battle in case it ever falls into the wrong hands.

repeatedly or just last episode? :p

Blencathra
April 7th, 2013, 11:38 AM
And for the second week in a row, he doesn't close the TARDIS doors behind him.

What's that all about?

Perhaps it so someone can have sneaked aboard & we get to see them in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS.

MasySyma
April 7th, 2013, 11:55 AM
And for the second week in a row, he doesn't close the TARDIS doors behind him.

What's that all about?

Bad detail work!? Just like the Tardis translation circuit should have prevented the whole dog barking scene.
That and perhaps the child singer made an error due to horribly repetivie lyrics because the invented song actually had no meaning.

Quizziard
April 7th, 2013, 12:02 PM
Bad detail work!? Just like the Tardis translation circuit should have prevented the whole dog barking scene

Ho cho bo cho do ho bo do. Poppa doppa poppa dop. Cho ho.

["It's also an argument that applies to anything spoken by the Juddoon. So there! No, really!"]

Greenee
April 7th, 2013, 12:13 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Purple Glow View Post
The basic formula for writing good fiction is to create interesting, compelling characters and torture them for 300 pages. How they react tells you something about them and makes it enjoyable. Maybe they rise, maybe they fall.

The Rings of Akhaten completely violates this principle.

1. The new characters created for this story are neither interesting nor compelling. The only character from this story with much of any english lines at all is the little girl, and she was not made compelling by them, imo. The antagonist was a blob with no speaking lines.

2. I didn't feel that a good job was done of conveying the threat to the audience.

As a result, you wound up a story filled with forgettable characters facing a boring threat.

The story didn't work.
Speaking as a writer, I rather dislike formula.

Speeking as a student of literatue, I absolutly agree withyou ;)

Admiral Mappalazarou
April 7th, 2013, 12:53 PM
repeatedly or just last episode? :p

Pretty sure the Ninth and Tenth Doctors alluded to the same thing. It's already been set up. It gives them a reason not to have to come with a physical reason as to why the Doctor doesn't use the TARDIS for everything as if he did, there'd be no struggle or anything.

MasySyma
April 7th, 2013, 01:02 PM
Ho cho bo cho do ho bo do. Poppa doppa poppa dop. Cho ho.

["It's also an argument that applies to anything spoken by the Juddoon. So there! No, really!"]

Yep, and it was sloppy writing there too. :)

Nolamom
April 7th, 2013, 01:50 PM
That and perhaps the child singer made an error due to horribly repetivie lyrics because the invented song actually had no meaning.
I got more of the impression that the "break" was caused by the man who was already inside the pyramid. Seems like I heard a change in his notes first. Perhaps I'm misremembering?

MasySyma
April 7th, 2013, 02:04 PM
I got more of the impression that the "break" was caused by the man who was already inside the pyramid. Seems like I heard a change in his notes first. Perhaps I'm misremembering?

I thought that also at first. I watched the episode again, and she keeps claiming she made the error, so perhaps something got clipped in edits or the poor girl was being set up to be eaten according to tradition, which is why this ending reminds me of Satellite 5. Their world is doomed as soon as the Doctor leaves.

He tore out their religion, which for them, was functioning as a source of unity. War will engulf the seven worlds as soon as one of them realizes no "grandfather" keeps them constrained.

Greenee
April 7th, 2013, 02:33 PM
I thought that also at first. I watched the episode again, and she keeps claiming she made the error, so perhaps something got clipped in edits or the poor girl was being set up to be eaten according to tradition, which is why this ending reminds me of Satellite 5. Their world is doomed as soon as the Doctor leaves.

He tore out their religion, which for them, was functioning as a source of unity. War will engulf the seven worlds as soon as one of them realizes no "grandfather" keeps them constrained.

That's the problem with beeing someone who always tries saving the world (especialy beeing a timetraveler) you never quite know, if you're realy helping or making things worse. Think of Pompeii, for example.

P-90_177
April 7th, 2013, 04:24 PM
But formula is the basis of most of the Moffat driven series. His episodes were amazing during the RTD era because he always avoided RTD's patterns, but now, he has embraced patterns, cliches, and a lack of complexity. It is only a matter of time until glowly Doctor returns.

As pointed out, Moffatt hasn't written this episode. What he does do however is over see the overall story arc of each season which so far has been top notch every time.


Speeking as a student of literatue, I absolutly agree withyou ;)

Thank you. :D

SGalisa
April 7th, 2013, 06:41 PM
The TARDIS doesnt like Clara, nice touch :D

Maybe that is/was due to one of Clara's incarnations as a Dalek in a previous eppy?



I noticed. And that Clara's parent's are called Ellie and Dave. Such a lot of leaf, tree and forest references. BTW Ella was the name of Donna's daughter in The Library (Forest of the Dead) and of course Other Dave and Proper Dave (who turned out the lights!) ended up downloaded into the Library as well.

Edit - Incidentally I don't actually believe that Proper Dave & Ellie are the real parents of Clara. Just that certain things are bleeding through to this world from The Library, names being one of them.

Interesting theory -- references going back to the "Forest in the Library." ;)
..anything jogging the Doctor's memory yet, such as his examination of the leaf (to a forest tree)..??

What complicates these stories is that, apparently, Clara doesn't remember existing in or as her other selves, but yet has the same manifestations of "Clara/Oswin" each time.

Ohhhh, and Oswin -- the name -- someone elsewhere (on the internet) indirectly pointed out that maybe OSwin is a code word/name for Operating Systems-WIN. More clues to being an already downloaded creature? Even as a Dalek, Oswin's memories remained intact or perhaps *downloaded* somehow into the thing that housed her mind/soul -- otherwise she was also known as "soufflé girl" in two eppies, so far that I know of. ;)

There's a rumor running around that in the season finale
River will be in the eppy in some way. There was some speculation about River and Clara having a bit of a clashy encounter. But if River is Clara, considering all of these other refs, it makes better sense that Clara is a manifestation of River reaching out to the Doctor -- post Library episodes.

So, does River Song like making soufflés, as well, or was that just some offbeat idea to throw DW viewers off track..?
:D

ooooooh.. is the name *SONG* in River's name (River Song -- aka, also known as *Melody* Pond) also another clue, if there was a special song in this particular "The Rings of Akhaten" (3308/708) eppy? :eek:
hmmm, the intrigue continues..

D____! gotta wait til the DVD comes out to see all of this. :( ugh! Can imagine the behind-the-scenes commentaries to all of these things, too! :)

aretood2
April 7th, 2013, 07:29 PM
I thought that also at first. I watched the episode again, and she keeps claiming she made the error, so perhaps something got clipped in edits or the poor girl was being set up to be eaten according to tradition, which is why this ending reminds me of Satellite 5. Their world is doomed as soon as the Doctor leaves.

He tore out their religion, which for them, was functioning as a source of unity. War will engulf the seven worlds as soon as one of them realizes no "grandfather" keeps them constrained.

He also destroyed the basis of their currency, destabilized the gravitational center of their system's orbit, and gutted their culture. There's now a huge vacuum left behind with countless souls left confused.

Then there's his annoying speech of how awesome he is and how he has secrets and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. That's one thing I don't like about 11. The speech was...well...over the top. I guess it doesn't help that I am not a big fan of "I've seen things you possibly can't imagine" cliche when it's just thrown around but not shown in some manner. Off screen knowledge like that is just a "Lookie here! This is how awesome and so grand the main character is, that we can't possibly properly portray his awesomeness because we have made it seem so huge that it would take technologies we don't have, vocabulary that doesn't exist, and the part of the light spectrum we can't see to properly show you." So no, I didn't even get a lumpy throat at his speech...just annoyance.

I mean, goodness gracious, there is such a thing as overdoing something.

Other than those things, It was a pretty nice episode. We got to see more of Clara's past which was done in a rather good fashion. The interaction between Clara, the Doctor, and the aliens worked well for me. The story was average, and that's not a bad thing. There needs to be plenty of average episodes to prop up the big ones.

It will ruin it for me if Clara is in any way River.

I found the reference to Susan very...interesting.

Blencathra
April 8th, 2013, 02:02 AM
He also destroyed the basis of their currency, destabilized the gravitational center of their system's orbit, and gutted their culture. There's now a huge vacuum left behind with countless souls left confused.



To be fair, this isn't the first time. He has previous on doing this sort of thing. I suppose one question is whether it eventually comes back to bite him.

SGalisa - I like your thinking. ;)

Greenee
April 8th, 2013, 02:17 AM
To be fair, this isn't the first time. He has previous on doing this sort of thing. I suppose one question is whether it eventually comes back to bite him.

Could be. Like someone else here has pointed out, we had something similar with sattelite five, though this seems even bigger, if you think of it. Actuly I do hope, it will. That is one think I like about the doctor: He his the bluddy hero, allright, but than he's not perfect/almighty (call it what you like) He DOES make mistakes, he DOES make worng desicions and sometimes he needs to be told that. And he tries to lern from it. This what makes him... well, I'd say human, except he's not.

P-90_177
April 8th, 2013, 04:45 AM
Could be. Like someone else here has pointed out, we had something similar with sattelite five, though this seems even bigger, if you think of it. Actually I do hope, it will. That is one think I like about the doctor: He his the bluddy hero, allright, but than he's not perfect/almighty (call it what you like) He DOES make mistakes, he DOES make wrong desicions and sometimes he needs to be told that. And he tries to lern from it. This what makes him... well, I'd say human, except he's not.

I think it's more what makes him a Timelord and why he learns so much from humans.

But the Doctor will never stand for Dictators or Despots ruling over others with fear. The thing he values more than anything else is freedom, so while he is aware that his actions will create consequences and in many ways he is still sad about that, he knows also that at least those who once lived in fear may now have a chance for a better life.

Most of all the Doctor has faith in humanity and the more friendly races he encounters, probably because in his view, if they haven't completely become genocidal war mongers like the Daleks then there is still hope for them.

aretood2
April 8th, 2013, 07:00 AM
I think it's more what makes him a Timelord and why he learns so much from humans.

But the Doctor will never stand for Dictators or Despots ruling over others with fear. The thing he values more than anything else is freedom, so while he is aware that his actions will create consequences and in many ways he is still sad about that, he knows also that at least those who once lived in fear may now have a chance for a better life.

Most of all the Doctor has faith in humanity and the more friendly races he encounters, probably because in his view, if they haven't completely become genocidal war mongers like the Daleks then there is still hope for them.

The only problem is that he did leave Hitler in a closet so he could kill millions...that's what should be bothering him. Not nonsensical secrets. How does he deal with picking who and where and when to interfere with? Who lives and who dies? Who to save? There's enough dictators and despots in Earth's history, throw in the galaxy, the galaxy cluster, the supercluster...and you have an infinitum of dictators. So what makes him pick to ignore one and not ignore the other? If he's seen the end of time and the beginning of the universe and knows magical secrets, I hardly doubt that it would be beyond his capability to fight each and every dictator.

That, in my opinion, would be a lot more logical source of the tears he had in this episode.

Matt G
April 8th, 2013, 09:30 AM
Hmmmm...

1. Interesting that the Doctor followed Clara through her history.

2. Good point about the translation circuit.

3. Very cheesy ceremonies though.

4. So...what...the God was the star? Something in the star?

Not the best episode of all time!

Flyboy
April 8th, 2013, 10:52 AM
The only problem is that he did leave Hitler in a closet so he could kill millions...that's what should be bothering him. Not nonsensical secrets. How does he deal with picking who and where and when to interfere with? Who lives and who dies? Who to save? There's enough dictators and despots in Earth's history, throw in the galaxy, the galaxy cluster, the supercluster...and you have an infinitum of dictators. So what makes him pick to ignore one and not ignore the other? If he's seen the end of time and the beginning of the universe and knows magical secrets, I hardly doubt that it would be beyond his capability to fight each and every dictator.

That, in my opinion, would be a lot more logical source of the tears he had in this episode.

Because, without Hitler's rise to power and engagement in atrocities - Modern Earth would be very different. In fact I'd go so far as to say that without Hitler as an adversary to unite against. Europe would not be as peaceful as it is now, America would likely not be a super power, and Britain would have likely not let go of the empire quite so gracefully. As for how Russia would have developed... well... Point is, as long as the Doctor travels with human companions from Earth, he cannot muck up Earth's key events otherwise he'll screw up the world his companions come from.

Sealurk
April 8th, 2013, 11:43 AM
The only problem is that he did leave Hitler in a closet so he could kill millions...that's what should be bothering him. Not nonsensical secrets. How does he deal with picking who and where and when to interfere with? Who lives and who dies? Who to save? There's enough dictators and despots in Earth's history, throw in the galaxy, the galaxy cluster, the supercluster...and you have an infinitum of dictators. So what makes him pick to ignore one and not ignore the other? If he's seen the end of time and the beginning of the universe and knows magical secrets, I hardly doubt that it would be beyond his capability to fight each and every dictator.

That, in my opinion, would be a lot more logical source of the tears he had in this episode.

That's probably why they introduced the 'fixed points in time' concept, to explain why the Doctor doesn't go round saving everybody and sanitising history - sometimes he can because time is in flux, sometimes he is all too aware that however much he might want to change events, too much hinges on them. I suppose after twelve hundred years or more of phone box travel you just learn to accept what you cannot change for fear of ripping the universe apart or collapsing time in on itself.

Greenee
April 8th, 2013, 02:38 PM
Quote Originally Posted by aretood2 View Post
The only problem is that he did leave Hitler in a closet so he could kill millions...that's what should be bothering him. Not nonsensical secrets. How does he deal with picking who and where and when to interfere with? Who lives and who dies? Who to save? There's enough dictators and despots in Earth's history, throw in the galaxy, the galaxy cluster, the supercluster...and you have an infinitum of dictators. So what makes him pick to ignore one and not ignore the other? If he's seen the end of time and the beginning of the universe and knows magical secrets, I hardly doubt that it would be beyond his capability to fight each and every dictator.

That, in my opinion, would be a lot more logical source of the tears he had in this episode.
That's probably why they introduced the 'fixed points in time' concept, to explain why the Doctor doesn't go round saving everybody and sanitising history - sometimes he can because time is in flux, sometimes he is all too aware that however much he might want to change events, too much hinges on them. I suppose after twelve hundred years or more of phone box travel you just learn to accept what you cannot change for fear of ripping the universe apart or collapsing time in on itself.

I think so. And we've seen what happens, if he doesn't accept the fact, he can't help everytime, in Waters of Mars. One more reason, why he didn't stop Hitler might be, that he knows he got stoped by the humans themselfes. They did't need the Doctor in the end, (thogh of course he could have save millions).
Anyway, changing the past is always a tricky thing in timetravel storys, a the main reason it's more than unlikely that it will ever be possible.

And one more thing: As far as I can see, the Doctor never gos like: "ohm which Planet could I safe today? Which part of history has to change." In fact, he only interfers if something's not happening acording to history, as he knows it. So he can't act against his knowledge, what's supposed to happen. ANd if he does things usualy get worse.

aretood2
April 8th, 2013, 05:48 PM
Because, without Hitler's rise to power and engagement in atrocities - Modern Earth would be very different. In fact I'd go so far as to say that without Hitler as an adversary to unite against. Europe would not be as peaceful as it is now, America would likely not be a super power, and Britain would have likely not let go of the empire quite so gracefully. As for how Russia would have developed... well... Point is, as long as the Doctor travels with human companions from Earth, he cannot muck up Earth's key events otherwise he'll screw up the world his companions come from.
So allowing a despot to rule for the greater good. How was the greater good served in this episode? Sure they are free from fear...but now they can fear the demise of their civilization and certain death by a multitude of inevitable forces brought upon by the disappearance of what I and another mentioned earlier.

That's probably why they introduced the 'fixed points in time' concept, to explain why the Doctor doesn't go round saving everybody and sanitising history - sometimes he can because time is in flux, sometimes he is all too aware that however much he might want to change events, too much hinges on them. I suppose after twelve hundred years or more of phone box travel you just learn to accept what you cannot change for fear of ripping the universe apart or collapsing time in on itself.
A better reason would be that he does things based on emotions and selfishness as opposed to that. Sure, he knows about the fixed points in time, and has learned to respect that. It's one thing to save a few children who accidentally travel through a box into a world of living trees, another to destroy a civilization and the prospects of life of those who live in said civilization.

I think so. And we've seen what happens, if he doesn't accept the fact, he can't help everytime, in Waters of Mars. One more reason, why he didn't stop Hitler might be, that he knows he got stoped by the humans themselfes. They did't need the Doctor in the end, (thogh of course he could have save millions).
Anyway, changing the past is always a tricky thing in timetravel storys, a the main reason it's more than unlikely that it will ever be possible.

And one more thing: As far as I can see, the Doctor never gos like: "ohm which Planet could I safe today? Which part of history has to change." In fact, he only interfers if something's not happening acording to history, as he knows it. So he can't act against his knowledge, what's supposed to happen. ANd if he does things usualy get worse.

That's why I liked the end of Waters of Mars. That's what 10 had to deal with, and that's what I would have prefered his speech to center on. His choices, and regrets. The Timewar, how that left 9 all messed up, 10's many troubles and mistakes, and now 11 could have made some mention on how he has countless mistakes and makes decisions few ever have to. He's suffered through enough personal pain (especially emphasized in 10) to have more sentimental value and stories than everyone in Akhaten's civilization. Not godlike experience, knowledge, and secrets.

Purple Glow
April 8th, 2013, 07:49 PM
The only problem is that he did leave Hitler in a closet so he could kill millions...that's what should be bothering him. Not nonsensical secrets. How does he deal with picking who and where and when to interfere with? Who lives and who dies? Who to save? There's enough dictators and despots in Earth's history, throw in the galaxy, the galaxy cluster, the supercluster...and you have an infinitum of dictators. So what makes him pick to ignore one and not ignore the other? If he's seen the end of time and the beginning of the universe and knows magical secrets, I hardly doubt that it would be beyond his capability to fight each and every dictator.

That, in my opinion, would be a lot more logical source of the tears he had in this episode.

How do you know the Doctor didn't go back in time and kill someone who would have been FAR FAR worse than Hitler during WW2? Maybe Hitler replaced whoever that person was, and the Doctor felt it was acceptable because, in the new timeline, Hitler loses.

min min light
April 8th, 2013, 08:29 PM
Isn't it some kind of a sci-fi rule of thumb/paradox in general that you can't kill Hitler? You can try, but whatever you do to kill him will always end up saving him.

P-90_177
April 8th, 2013, 09:50 PM
So allowing a despot to rule for the greater good. How was the greater good served in this episode? Sure they are free from fear...but now they can fear the demise of their civilization and certain death by a multitude of inevitable forces brought upon by the disappearance of what I and another mentioned earlier.

A better reason would be that he does things based on emotions and selfishness as opposed to that. Sure, he knows about the fixed points in time, and has learned to respect that. It's one thing to save a few children who accidentally travel through a box into a world of living trees, another to destroy a civilization and the prospects of life of those who live in said civilization.


That's why I liked the end of Waters of Mars. That's what 10 had to deal with, and that's what I would have prefered his speech to center on. His choices, and regrets. The Timewar, how that left 9 all messed up, 10's many troubles and mistakes, and now 11 could have made some mention on how he has countless mistakes and makes decisions few ever have to. He's suffered through enough personal pain (especially emphasized in 10) to have more sentimental value and stories than everyone in Akhaten's civilization. Not godlike experience, knowledge, and secrets.

11 is not like 10 in that respect. While 9 and 10 basically stuck to the rules of time set out by the Timelords because they still believed them to be relevant, 11 seems to have taken on board to a lesser degree what he realised in Waters of Mars, that is that he does have a vast amount of control over the universe and he will use it. It's one of the reasons why eleven seems to wrestle with his darker side a lot more and has less qualms about getting his hands dirty.

Your point about Hitler though is still flawed. One thing you will notice about all of The Doctor's adversaries is that they are enemies which would hopelessly outmatch our knowledge or our defences. And it is the same with alien races as well. Hitler on the other hand was a problem he knew could be dealt with by humans on their own. Yes Hitler committed evil attrocities but I'm sure in the Doctor's mind that is still a pin prick compared to what he knows the Daleks or Sontarrans get up to. In many ways what resulted because of the second world war is, as flyyboy said, very important to our development as a race. A whole generation learnt a new respect for life. Britain faced it's finest hour and won. America became a super power, and on and on we go. In fact it is esspecially crucial that those events remain as they are because it would impact on the Doctor's own history. It might even cause a paradox. He changes his own time so that he was never their to help earth in the 60's, 70's, 80's and so on.

Now on the other hand....
As I said all of the Doctor's enemies are such that if they had won then the world (or whatever world he's on) would most likely not have survived. Earth has very little means of overthrowing a dictator when said dictator can reduce the planet to molten slag (even the Slitheen).

In the case of The Rings of Akhaten it is very much his choice whether he gets involved or not. But he always will. Because maybe you're right and maybe that civilization will crumble, but those races are more likely to be able to help themselves out of that then they would have been able to defeat their God. They wouldn't have known how to defeat it. The God would have woken regardless of whether The Doctor was there or not in the end, and he tried feeding it as much as he could. He may have settled for putting it asleep but in the end he killed it, and he's happy with that too, because as I say, those races are now free and they are more likely to be able to help themselves out of that situation then they were able to deal with the God.

The only other enemies the Doctor faces are ones where his survival itself is at stake and his own sense of self preservation (and that of his companions) kicks in. This can be seen in the likes of Midnight, but even then he also has others with him to protect.

Starfist
April 9th, 2013, 02:40 AM
I was very disappointed with this episode.
Like the previous episode it appeared to me to be rushed.

The saving grace was the music. Now I did like the music. Oh and Clara... :D

And maybe the Ravenwood references may lead to something we won't expect?

Blencathra
April 9th, 2013, 10:09 AM
With regard to the discussion you have just been having. I thought you might be interested in this quote from Matt Smith


That’s what interests me about The Doctor because, actually, look at the blood on the man’s hands. 900 years, countless very selfish choices, and he’s literally blown planets up. His own race, you know, that’s all on his hands. Which is why I think he has to make silly jokes and wear a fez. Because if he didn’t, he’d hang himself.

From The Nerdist Podcast no 46.

cosmichobo
April 10th, 2013, 04:49 AM
My thoughts...

So much set up that really just... didn't result in an engaging story.

It certainly reminded me of Gridlock, and The Beast Below, however they both evolved into actual interesting and intriguing stories. In fact, both of them wasted little time getting to the story... This one took time out to give Clara some caring scenes with the scared little girl, but did little to give us something to really engage with.

And the moment the Doctor declared that the figure in the glass box was just an alarm for something much bigger... I groaned and rolled my eyes at the tv... Up until the (seated) creature started flailing and thrashing around, I actually got excited - thinking it may in fact be Sutekh! A pyramid... People scared of the creature inside... Mummies...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130407160014/tardis/images/5/5c/MummyAkhaten.jpg

http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz2/Fendahl/Doctor%20Who%20Sutekh/6.jpg

Sadly of course, no... we get a frowny CGI planet... Yay...

I'm certainly still intrigued by Clara's mystery... However I'm not sure how much longer it'll hold me. I guess I can be thankful it's only a part season this year (droll).

By the time Matt was delivering his speech I'd pretty well tuned out...

Coco Pops
April 10th, 2013, 06:37 PM
My thoughts...

So much set up that really just... didn't result in an engaging story.

It certainly reminded me of Gridlock, and The Beast Below, however they both evolved into actual interesting and intriguing stories. In fact, both of them wasted little time getting to the story... This one took time out to give Clara some caring scenes with the scared little girl, but did little to give us something to really engage with.

And the moment the Doctor declared that the figure in the glass box was just an alarm for something much bigger... I groaned and rolled my eyes at the tv... Up until the (seated) creature started flailing and thrashing around, I actually got excited - thinking it may in fact be Sutekh! A pyramid... People scared of the creature inside... Mummies...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130407160014/tardis/images/5/5c/MummyAkhaten.jpg

http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz2/Fendahl/Doctor%20Who%20Sutekh/6.jpg

Sadly of course, no... we get a frowny CGI planet... Yay...

I'm certainly still intrigued by Clara's mystery... However I'm not sure how much longer it'll hold me. I guess I can be thankful it's only a part season this year (droll).

By the time Matt was delivering his speech I'd pretty well tuned out...



You mean the almost obligatory "I am the Doctor, bow before me" speech :/

stargatefan234
April 11th, 2013, 04:55 AM
For those who haven't seen these :p :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hioU3VT5iLE

P-90_177
April 11th, 2013, 11:27 AM
You mean the almost obligatory "I am the Doctor, bow before me" speech :/

Damn right it's obligatory.

Coco Pops
April 11th, 2013, 05:26 PM
Damn right it's obligatory.

It's annoying.

I thought he was trying to keep a low profile after the events with The Silence. Speaking of which I think they might be returning to finish off the exploding TARDIS arc which wasn't fully closed.

SGalisa
April 11th, 2013, 06:35 PM
SGalisa - I like your thinking. ;)

and I like yours too! :)
Also, enjoyed your topic / theory about Clara being u-know-who... :D

(PS-- I tried to green you, but the system wouldn't let me yet).. :(

The Flyattractor
April 11th, 2013, 06:40 PM
I found it extremely refreshing to see the Doctor have a little adventure someplace for once that wasn't on earth or really had anything to do with earth or humans.

Sure the episode was kinda meh on a lot of points but it was still nace for a very much needed change of scenery.

min min light
April 11th, 2013, 09:13 PM
Yes I did like that too now that you mention it. He really does spend way too much time in present-day London considering that he has a frakking Tardis.

P-90_177
April 12th, 2013, 08:56 AM
It's annoying.

I thought he was trying to keep a low profile after the events with The Silence. Speaking of which I think they might be returning to finish off the exploding TARDIS arc which wasn't fully closed.

He still doesn't give a grand speech like that very often. They're very memorable but they aren't something that happens every episode.

MasySyma
April 12th, 2013, 11:05 AM
He still doesn't give a grand speech like that very often. They're very memorable but they aren't something that happens every episode.

I guess it depends what you call often. :)

11 is notorious for these.
1. The meeting with the Atraxi.
2. Right before everybody jumps to the ship to run from the angels.
3. To stop the ships descending on the Pandorica.
4. Getting locked into the Pandorica.
5. The battle of Demon's Run.
6. In Let's Kill Hitler.
7. During The Wedding of River Song.
8. Everyone else but him does it about him in the last Christmas special.
9. And last week.

And this is me just thinking fast. The epic speeches are one of the reasons I'm not fond of 11. They are too epic. A few "oh wait. That's the Lion King" moments would help immensely.

Greenee
April 12th, 2013, 12:20 PM
A few "oh wait. That's the Lion King" moments would help immensely.

Yeah, that was one of my favourite Doctor Who lines EVER! But I also lieked the Pandorica/Stonehenge speech verry much, though rather or the reaction of the ships.

P-90_177
April 12th, 2013, 04:37 PM
I guess it depends what you call often. :)

11 is notorious for these.
1. The meeting with the Atraxi.
2. Right before everybody jumps to the ship to run from the angels.
3. To stop the ships descending on the Pandorica.
4. Getting locked into the Pandorica.
5. The battle of Demon's Run.
6. In Let's Kill Hitler.
7. During The Wedding of River Song.
8. Everyone else but him does it about him in the last Christmas special.
9. And last week.

And this is me just thinking fast. The epic speeches are one of the reasons I'm not fond of 11. They are too epic. A few "oh wait. That's the Lion King" moments would help immensely.

Not sure you can count when he's being locked into the Pandorica. He was trying to ensure that his worst enemies understood the gravity of the situation. :P

But in three seasons I still wouldn't call that often. We can assume that he's of course going to do another one this season in the finale (he better do anyway).
The Doctor has always delivered grand speeches. The 7th Doctor did some fantastic ones. It's just part of the character, and Matt Smith's delivery always gives me goosebumps, so the more the merrier. :)

Coco Pops
April 13th, 2013, 01:13 AM
Blen where is your Clara theory?

Blencathra
April 13th, 2013, 01:34 AM
Blen where is your Clara theory?

Here it is. ;)

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/87106-A-theory-about-Clara-s-identity

Nth Chevron
April 18th, 2013, 06:03 AM
Did anyone also notice the way Clara's demeanor changed during the Doctors speech about the Time War?

She goes from looking hopefully toward the pyramid, to looking left and then down for a moment or 2, losing her smile and looking suddenly pensive? fearful?

NC

cosmichobo
April 18th, 2013, 07:03 AM
It's a fleeting moment when she looks down... I'd just take it as curiosity...

Of course - it makes no sense that Clara could even hear his speech...

aretood2
April 19th, 2013, 08:17 PM
About the sound and flying through wind...how were they in an atmosphere?

Sealurk
April 20th, 2013, 05:31 AM
I'm guessing something similar to an atmospheric shell or an air corridor, as mentioned in previous episodes. Wish they had addressed it briefly though... it's the kind of thing you'd expect Clara to notice in her first proper trip in the TARDIS.

"Doctor, how are we breathing?"

Girlbot
April 20th, 2013, 07:11 AM
I found that in this episode, there were alot of things that seemed to be just ignored. A bit choppy for me. :(

Tristen1
May 27th, 2013, 12:11 PM
Absolutely loved this episode. The alien world was so properly alien. Been a long long time in Doctor Who when we have had a people who were just so different, their concept of "money" was wonderful.

And loved Matt and Jenna. They go from strength to strength.

cosmichobo
May 28th, 2013, 04:23 AM
Admittedly yes, the alien world was very well realised.

It was great to see, as compared to the frequent future Earth/human colonies that we've seen a lot of in NewWho to date.

maneth
July 15th, 2013, 08:52 AM
The alien world was great, even if it reminded me of the SW Cantina...

Quizziard
July 15th, 2013, 09:08 AM
The alien world was great, even if it reminded me of the SW Cantina...

Isn't that inevitable?

Brother Freyr
July 15th, 2013, 11:21 AM
Loved the singing in this episode and was delighted that they performed it in last weekend's Prom.

maneth
July 17th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Isn't that inevitable?

Pretty much...