Earth military decisions

[Tactical Nuke]

Ok so im a massive fan of sg1 Sga and meh maby universe too, so heres my major bugbear

Why do we never utilize the potential of our military ?.

We have far more potent small arms than the p90 / m9 yet these guns are predominantly used in every episode except a few mp5s and light machine guns. imagine what a spas (replicator exclusive) would have done to an unas or group of ori soldiers in close quarters, never mind a 50 cal

defensive weapons. focusing here mainly on SGA, most notably the season finale where atlantis defends against 3 wraith hives. What we use - railguns (very nice) more p90's ,nuclear mines (daft idea) and a few at4 missile launchers. Why!? we have thousands and thousands of missile launchers, hell the russians have an insane amount of hand held aa missiles, more than enough to deter a flight of darts, and then some. not to mention anti satellite missiles, capable of carrying the multi gigaton nuclear warheads (hives lack shields, do the math...) even countries like iraq have hundreds of mobile AA guns, which would have done the same job as the rail guns, there would have been many many more available. emp.... from a small nuclear warhead would knock all the darts out of the sky.

i simply don't understand why when faced with destruction, our planet does not put up more of a fight. The USA, Russia, China, the United Kingdom, France etc all have massively capable militaries, hundreds ( if not thousands) of nuclear warheads and their delivery systems each. yet in every earth invasion episode,, i never see a single missile launch, or fighters scrambling. it seems to me that the whole world relies on the luck of our 4 favorite heroes, even if it can do something about the threats.. meh, thoughts guys ?

[hedwig]

The whole world did not know about the threat from space because the United States didn't share the information with anyone else for the first few years. If they had, then perhaps there could have been an effective defense system put together ... that is, if the whole world could have agreed on anything.

Most likely, they'd have still been arguing over who got to control what when everyone was killed or enslaved, and then pointing fingers at everyone else and blaming everyone else for the disaster.

[P-90_177]

Indeed. Politics is a big part of it. No country, even when the IOA took a more prominent role, wanted to pool all their resources into the SGC or anything to do with the stargate. In essence it is easier to sweep under the rung those things you don't see with your own eyes every day.

[thekillman]

The main reason big weapons were not used on every mission, is because these missions were exploratory and the nice natives might misunderstand your intentions if you show up with the biggest guns you have....

[Flyboy]

Tactical Nuke,

1) Do you have any idea how much we'd **** our own military networks over if we launched a nuke in orbit? We'd lose all network centric capability, which would mean our militaries would NOT be able to function.

2) All the wonderful anti aircraft weaponry you speak pf... find out how useful that is against 4th and 5th generation fighters and bombers, and then consider JUST how useful they'd actually be against a Wraith dart or glider....

3) As for ground combat, heavier weaponry WAS used from time to time, but it's not practical from a logistical perspective to enter every fray with machine guns and what-not, you simply would not have the longevity for a protracted firefight. As with real world warfare, such weapons are necessary SUPPORT weapons to augment normal personal weapons systems.

[Tactical Nuke]

Tactical Nuke,

1) Do you have any idea how much we'd **** our own military networks over if we launched a nuke in orbit? We'd lose all network centric capability, which would mean our militaries would NOT be able to function.

2) All the wonderful anti aircraft weaponry you speak pf... find out how useful that is against 4th and 5th generation fighters and bombers, and then consider JUST how useful they'd actually be against a Wraith dart or glider....

3) As for ground combat, heavier weaponry WAS used from time to time, but it's not practical from a logistical perspective to enter every fray with machine guns and what-not, you simply would not have the longevity for a protracted firefight. As with real world warfare, such weapons are necessary SUPPORT weapons to augment normal personal weapons systems.

Yeah true 4th and 5th gen fighters are immune to most projectile weaponry, but unlike darts, F35s and euro-fighters do not fly directly overhead targets, they drop bombs from thousands of feet, or launch missiles from tens of miles away, Wraith darts however HAVE to fly a few hundred feet above the target i9n order to beam them up, meaning that they are Very vunerable to projectile weaponry, as seen with the rail guns. at that range rail guns are over kill, and the phlanx systems, goalkeeper systems or even soviet era aa guns would suffice, and costing maby 1 1000th as much, many more can be deployed, even logistically they are not a problem to deploy.

i was referring to atlantis when i mentioned the emp, assuming wraith tech is affected ofc.

a team of 4 is more than capable of carrying easily enough ammunition for a prolonged firefight, hell the malp is capable of transporting ammo / supplies through. The only advantage for a p90 is its large armour piercing magazines which are very small in size, still think they should re evaluate the 4 people with the same loadout approach.

think a few harriers would have helped defend atlantis ?

[Tactical Nuke]

The main reason big weapons were not used on every mission, is because these missions were exploratory and the nice natives might misunderstand your intentions if you show up with the biggest guns you have....

true but not all missions were peaceful ones, rescue missions could have benefited from a barret or a few more bricks of c4

[Tactical Nuke]

The whole world did not know about the threat from space because the United States didn't share the information with anyone else for the first few years. If they had, then perhaps there could have been an effective defense system put together ... that is, if the whole world could have agreed on anything.

Most likely, they'd have still been arguing over who got to control what when everyone was killed or enslaved, and then pointing fingers at everyone else and blaming everyone else for the disaster.

yeah but i rememberseeing the episode (cant remember the season) where the top 6 or 7 militaries were briefed on the threat, and if theyre willing to invade countries for oil, then then obtaining ships and powersources would have been irrisistable to the world powers, meaning they would expend far more resources.

[Tactical Nuke]

Indeed. Politics is a big part of it. No country, even when the IOA took a more prominent role, wanted to pool all their resources into the SGC or anything to do with the stargate. In essence it is easier to sweep under the rung those things you don't see with your own eyes every day.

bloody recession

[Flyboy]

Yeah true 4th and 5th gen fighters are immune to most projectile weaponry, but unlike darts, F35s and euro-fighters do not fly directly overhead targets, they drop bombs from thousands of feet, or launch missiles from tens of miles away, Wraith darts however HAVE to fly a few hundred feet above the target i9n order to beam them up, meaning that they are Very vunerable to projectile weaponry, as seen with the rail guns. at that range rail guns are over kill, and the phlanx systems, goalkeeper systems or even soviet era aa guns would suffice, and costing maby 1 1000th as much, many more can be deployed, even logistically they are not a problem to deploy.

Valid points, but the wraith darts are only required to fly in and low in order to abduct individuals, not for bombing operations, and when they do - their TTPs also involve suicide runs. What you also need to consider, is that the majority of AAA isn't particularly mobile, and is more frequently a static defence tool. As a defensive aid they have a valid role, again, assuming the darts/gliders flew low and slow, which would be unlikely if they assessed their was a credible anti-air threat. You'd also have to presume that the glider or dart would have ECM capable of defeating MANPADS or SAMS. There's no real credible anti air weapons system that would be particularly effective in a glider or dart that was conducting a more stand off style attack, as a bombing run - even at low level, could be conducted at immense speeds.

i was referring to atlantis when i mentioned the emp, assuming wraith tech is affected ofc.

It would still shut most of Atlantis down.

a team of 4 is more than capable of carrying easily enough ammunition for a prolonged firefight, hell the malp is capable of transporting ammo / supplies through. The only advantage for a p90 is its large armour piercing magazines which are very small in size, still think they should re evaluate the 4 people with the same loadout approach.

Well, personally,I think the P-90 is a mistake, given that many of their operations were conducted in open terrain. The P-90 is far more suitable for close quarter urban fighting, such as in the corridors of a mothership. It would have been more beneficial to have utilised an M-16 or an L85A2. I agree that the four man team should be re-assessed, but then - let's face it, military realism was dropped pretty early in S1 when they stopped wearing helmets and stopped taking their full patrol packs out with them... Frankly, a team of eight as minimum is required, with at least one GPMG style weapon.

The problem with the MALP is it's not particularly mobile, and who's going to sit and guard all the ammo. If the teams want to remain fully mobile, ammo WILL be a problem in the long term.

think a few harriers would have helped defend atlantis ?

In the air-to-air role? Doubtful - old technology, despite being a beaut. A couple of F-22s on the other hand... oh yes. That may have had a fighting chance, up until the point when Darts exploited the maximum ceiling height of the Raptor and G-limitations...

[Tactical Nuke]

Valid points, but the wraith darts are only required to fly in and low in order to abduct individuals, not for bombing operations, and when they do - their TTPs also involve suicide runs. What you also need to consider, is that the majority of AAA isn't particularly mobile, and is more frequently a static defence tool. As a defensive aid they have a valid role, again, assuming the darts/gliders flew low and slow, which would be unlikely if they assessed their was a credible anti-air threat. You'd also have to presume that the glider or dart would have ECM capable of defeating MANPADS or SAMS. There's no real credible anti air weapons system that would be particularly effective in a glider or dart that was conducting a more stand off style attack, as a bombing run - even at low level, could be conducted at immense speeds.



It would still shut most of Atlantis down.



Well, personally,I think the P-90 is a mistake, given that many of their operations were conducted in open terrain. The P-90 is far more suitable for close quarter urban fighting, such as in the corridors of a mothership. It would have been more beneficial to have utilised an M-16 or an L85A2. I agree that the four man team should be re-assessed, but then - let's face it, military realism was dropped pretty early in S1 when they stopped wearing helmets and stopped taking their full patrol packs out with them... Frankly, a team of eight as minimum is required, with at least one GPMG style weapon.

The problem with the MALP is it's not particularly mobile, and who's going to sit and guard all the ammo. If the teams want to remain fully mobile, ammo WILL be a problem in the long term.



In the air-to-air role? Doubtful - old technology, despite being a beaut. A couple of F-22s on the other hand... oh yes. That may have had a fighting chance, up until the point when Darts exploited the maximum ceiling height of the Raptor and G-limitations...

ahh fair do's fair do's , i guess we needed to know more about wraith tech in order to really understand what would work against them, and while im sure the wraith can adapt to the primitive missiles we use, i was just referring to the several times they were seen to work, im sure they would adapt with ease. yeah the AA could be a sitting duck against plasma / energy weapons etc, the only way i see them being of use is in atlantis, being a static target and all.

yeah the L85A2 would have added an extra few hundred yards to the engagement range, throw on a grenade launcher and you have a very powerful weapon, light support weapon for cover, maybe and At4 for air / ground defense.

i think the only problem with the f22 is asking the wraith to wait while we figure out whats broken this time . yeah id love to see a few modified harriers with ten or so sidewinders each take on the wraith.

i just rewatched the Atlantis episode where they use the nuke to hide the cloaked city, and your right . i cant actually believe the city's electronics are more vulnerable than many military electronics today, that always confused me, if nukes are so powerful against all these races, why are we the only ones to field them, i mean all the naquadra the gould (spelling) have, they'd be able to make thousands of mark 9's and we'd be toast, including the Daedalus

[Xaeden]

not to mention anti satellite missiles, capable of carrying the multi gigaton nuclear warheads (hives lack shields, do the math...)

Hives, however, are chock full of darts that are both ready and fully capable of intercepting slow moving missiles. So even if they were able to get these missiles to Atlantis and install them in the very short notice that had before the Wraith laid siege to the city, they wouldn't have been able to get past the Wraith's dart screen.

yet in every earth invasion episode,, i never see a single missile launch, or fighters scrambling. it seems to me that the whole world relies on the luck of our 4 favorite heroes, even if it can do something about the threats.. meh, thoughts guys ?

Actually, they tried and failed to launch missiles at ships in Sg-1's season 1 finale - Not only did they fire two nuclear weapons at Apophis' ships, but they were naquadah enhanced nuclear weapons. Despite that, they had zero affect on his shields and so they never tried to do that again because they realized, then and there, how pointless it was against shielded ships. Meanwhile, the only time un-shielded ships made it to Earth (in their reality) was in the Atlantis series finale and, unfortunately, not only weren't they dealing with a normal Hive but the super Hive spent the bulk of the episode hanging back, near the moon. When it moved in, Atlantis was there and Sheppard was waiting to sneak his nuke on-board, so it didn't get to the point where they would have to try to fire nukes at it from the surface.

[Tactical Nuke]

Hives, however, are chock full of darts that are both ready and fully capable of intercepting slow moving missiles. So even if they were able to get these missiles to Atlantis and install them in the very short notice that had before the Wraith laid siege to the city, they wouldn't have been able to get past the Wraith's dart screen.

that where the whole emp thing comes in, they would be floating around in space completely useless kinda like battle star galactic showed. fire a few nukes / decoys at the hive and at the very least give them a reason to back off.


Actually, they tried and failed to launch missiles at ships in Sg-1's season 1 finale - Not only did they fire two nuclear weapons at Apophis' ships, but they were naquadah enhanced nuclear weapons. Despite that, they had zero affect on his shields and so they never tried to do that again because they realized, then and there, how pointless it was against shielded ships. Meanwhile, the only time un-shielded ships made it to Earth (in their reality) was in the Atlantis series finale and, unfortunately, not only weren't they dealing with a normal Hive but the super Hive spent the bulk of the episode hanging back, near the moon. When it moved in, Atlantis was there and Sheppard was waiting to sneak his nuke on-board, so it didn't get to the point where they would have to try to fire nukes at it from the surface.

true, however they were shielded hatak vessels, nukes and railguns proved to be usefull weapons against the wraith / replicators , yet useless against shields. also the mark 9 warhead would have made those nukes look like party poppers, it just depends weather they would have had the power to overwhelm the shields, since in most scifi conventional weapons suck vs shields (startrek photons for example ), still when faced with annihilation, id imagine we would launch every operational warhead even if there was little / no hope

[thekillman]

Hives, however, are chock full of darts that are both ready and fully capable of intercepting slow moving missiles. So even if they were able to get these missiles to Atlantis and install them in the very short notice that had before the Wraith laid siege to the city, they wouldn't have been able to get past the Wraith's dart screen.

Send a couple of nukes first to wipe out the darts, then the nukes to wipe out the hive (well obviously the second wave of nukes can be fired at a slight delay).

Also: many modern missiles can reach low earth orbit, and that was the place the superhive was in. ICBMs already get to the edge of the atmosphere when they are shot at the enemy

[Flyboy]

Send a couple of nukes first to wipe out the darts, then the nukes to wipe out the hive (well obviously the second wave of nukes can be fired at a slight delay).

Also: many modern missiles can reach low earth orbit, and that was the place the superhive was in. ICBMs already get to the edge of the atmosphere when they are shot at the enemy

And once again, you'd basically create an EMP that would take out our own satellite capability and terrestrial CIS networks and leave us defenceless.