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GateWorld
August 15th, 2012, 05:50 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-angels-take-manhattan/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/the-angels-take-manhattan1-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SERIES 33</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-angels-take-manhattan/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE ANGELS TAKE MANHATTAN</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3305 (705)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">After Rory goes missing, Amy and the Doctor find an invasion of the Weeping Angels taking place in New York City -- where the Doctor must try to rewrite the future in order to save his friends.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE="1"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s7/the-angels-take-manhattan/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Sealurk
September 29th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Well that was pretty good. I do like how the Weeping Angels have simultaneously evolved and returned to their 'zap you back in time' method of disposal, though yet more questions have been raised now.

Seriously? In the City That Never Sleeps, not one person was looking at the Statue of Liberty long enough to not notice it walk off it's plinth, wade across the bay and stomp across land (with earthquake-level footsteps, no less) and stand for actually quite some time next to a hotel? There were cars driving past! While the spectacle is great, it seems to be one of Moffat's weak points - cool stuff for the sake of it, and logic be damned. Most of the time it works because it's either just so cool or the rest of the story is superb, but lately... I don't know.

And now we have black and white Detective Noir titles... better, but nope, I just can't like the titles this series.

Poor old Rory - two thousand years as a devoted plastic Centurion, no problem. Twelfth Cyber Legion and the Headless Monks? Piece of cake. Answering Amy when she asks if she has lines under her eyes...

Rory Arthur Williams... nice reference.

I am definitely going to have to freeze frame on that plaque on a rewatch...

Whoa... so the Doctor can give regeneration energy to River as well as the other way around, and by the way River reacted he doesn't have all that much left to give. Is this a hint that Moffat is going with the twelve regeneration limit?

Did the Doctor actually just leave his TARDIS unguarded when he knows Angels are everywhere? Wasn't that precisely what they were after in Blink?

"When don't I?!"

Surprisingly touching ending, even when I knew it was coming. Overall it was a pretty decent episode. Can't wait for the Christmas special - only eighty-six days, better start getting ready!

Blencathra
September 29th, 2012, 01:10 PM
That was really, really sad. I cried. Goodbye Ponds. :(

BruTak
September 29th, 2012, 01:25 PM
Yes, the mysterious plaque in the TARDIS. I'm sure I caught the word NATO and some numerals.

Now, normally I'm not one to criticize the choices of the costume designer, but - for the luvva God, ditch those round framed glasses Matt Smith was wearing.
They make him look like Harold Lloyd.

Sealurk
September 29th, 2012, 01:35 PM
Yes, the mysterious plaque in the TARDIS. I'm sure I caught the word NATO and some numerals.

Now, normally I'm not one to criticize the choices of the costume designer, but - for the luvva God, ditch those round framed glasses Matt Smith was wearing.
They make him look like Harold Lloyd.

I thought they were a reference to Matt Smith playing Bert Bushnell in Bert & Dickie, who if I remember correctly wore glasses exactly like those.

BruTak
September 29th, 2012, 01:41 PM
I thought they were a reference to Matt Smith playing Bert Bushnell in Bert & Dickie, who if I remember correctly wore glasses exactly like those.

Yeah, I know.

I'm saying that that style of frames doesn't really suit him.

iJOKE
September 29th, 2012, 02:00 PM
That was the best episode by far (as expected)

- 'you changed the future' 'thats marriage honey' :D

- Amy wasn't meant to die.. only Rory.. the gravestone always said Rory, it seems like she changed the future.. is that even possible??

- they did the back to the beginning with Amy like they did with Rose.. Some things never change :)

- I thought they were going to die by jumping off the tower.... guess I was wrong.

- It was interesting to have a detective in the story.... was his last name Malone by any chance? Is the doctors last name Malone? Also.. THEY COULD HAVE USED SHERLOCK HOLMES IN THIS STORY. There have already been many paradoxes.. why not add another one
*rants*

- the zapping back in time thing i don't really get..i mean the concept of it. (i will rewatch though)

- did the angel zap amy back in time to that place where rory is?

Overall an amazing Moffaty-Timey Wimey episode.
Will definitley rewatch.. OVER and OVER :)

- ALSO what about the last part with the doctor telling amy about her adventures.. isn't it against 'the rules'

+ telling a child their life is going to end in a certain way, ruins the story :(

Matt G
September 29th, 2012, 03:00 PM
1. So that detective just got sent back in time from 1938 to hell knows when?

2. River Song as an old pulp detective - not so bad!

3. "Do not go Yowsa!"

4. I've never seen the Dr quite as gooey over River before!

5. Statue of Liberty as an Angel is a bit OTT though!

6. RIP Ponds, suppose there are worse ways to go!

LeonK
September 29th, 2012, 05:57 PM
I know companions come and go, but I truly disliked it this time. So much so that I'm really not looking forward to when the series comes back. :(

Coco Pops
September 29th, 2012, 10:49 PM
OMG one of the few good episodes this series.... Sad to say bye bye to Amy and Rory but that was done in such a brilliant way. Loved that the gravestone changed automatically when Amy died.

A rather good send off for them I think.

But yes howcome in "the city that never sleeps" no one notices the statue of liberty moving?


Oh and since when the the Angels take over statues? I thought in the beginning they were statues.... Did they mess with canon again?

SeaBee
September 30th, 2012, 03:02 AM
This, for me, was the first episode this season that I really enjoyed.

A good, fast paced script which would have had 8 year old me behind the sofa in no time. The Angels have become my favourite monsters and they always make me jump. I liked the bit with Rory and the matches.

The statue of liberty was a bit daft but otherwise a good episode.

Nicely done with the Ponds farewell.

Coco Pops
September 30th, 2012, 03:04 AM
Is the Doctor erasing mention of himself everywhere or is that Oswin from episode 1 I wonder? Like River said in this episode everywhere she goes any mention of him is being erased?

GodAtum
September 30th, 2012, 06:32 AM
I feel really sorry for Rorys dad! I mean is the Doctor going to tell him what happened?

Also at the end where Amy and Rory trapped in that apartment until they die? TBH I think is was a pathetic way to go.

The_Carpenter
September 30th, 2012, 06:49 AM
I feel really sorry for Rorys dad! I mean is the Doctor going to tell him what happened?

Also at the end where Amy and Rory trapped in that apartment until they die? TBH I think is was a pathetic way to go.

The apartment was erased from time so luckly for them they wouldn't be stuck there... probably stayed and lived in New York.

On another note could of really done without the giant angel statue of liberty but other than that a awesome episode!

BruTak
September 30th, 2012, 06:49 AM
I feel really sorry for Rorys dad! I mean is the Doctor going to tell him what happened?

Also at the end where Amy and Rory trapped in that apartment until they die? TBH I think is was a pathetic way to go.
The apartment doesn't exist any more.

Amy and Rory jumping off the roof of the building created a temporal paradox that wiped out that timeline.

GodAtum
September 30th, 2012, 07:41 AM
Ah OK. How long will people's memory of them last? I feel sorry for Karen because when a new companion comes along every forgets about the previous one. I cant even remember who the Ponds replaced.

SaberBlade
September 30th, 2012, 08:15 AM
I'm sure they'll find a way to get the Ponds back, like The Doctor landing in New Jersey and just taking a bus, or perhaps travelling to a different part of the planet and just flying the Tardis there.

squirrely1
September 30th, 2012, 04:28 PM
The apartment was erased from time so luckly for them they wouldn't be stuck there... probably stayed and lived in New York.

On another note could of really done without the giant angel statue of liberty but other than that a awesome episode!

Yeah I'm with you on the statue of liberty :S that was hokey and sort of a cheap shot... I mean please...is absolutely nothing sacred in life....and how many times has the poor statue of liberty been used in scifi movies...it's just over used. But I did love it...although when they came back after having jumped off the roof just to lose them again...I thought that was an uneeded roller coaster of a ride.. I don't get how if the time line was erased and the angels supposedly were wiped out how they came back and got Rory in the end again? :S It seemed a bit... IDK.... weird there...I almost would have rather them not having come back at all after the fall...but maybe they didn't really come back? :S they were in the grave yard after all ...and maybe it was just amy there and she had to come to terms with Rory's death in her own way...and then join him...cuz she was three years older than him...the age on the tombstone....I didn't thikn Amy's character was older than Rory? :S Someone have anything to help with this?

MasySyma
September 30th, 2012, 05:36 PM
Amy and Rory are roughly the same age. The numbers mean he died first. She outlived him by five years.

MasySyma
September 30th, 2012, 05:51 PM
The episode was ok, but not amazing. Overall, Series 7 has been very meh.

We needed to know Amy's age so that we could know should we be concerned about Rory's dad. What was the point of even introducing him? It is also odd since he wasn't at the original wedding. What about Amy's "parents"?

The Statue of Liberty thing was just bad. If the city never sleeps, someone can always look at hold that angel in its place.

River was good, and I liked how the Doctor healed her.

I've never warmed to Amy, and the extra hype surrounding her departure has been annoying, but the episode was descent.

I just hope we get a strong and intelligent companion now.

Quizziard
September 30th, 2012, 09:28 PM
Technically, of course, Amy and Rory haven't died: they've been zapped back in time to live to death... out of their normal timeline and without impacting history with their foreknowledge of (some) major events. [Depends how good their history is..]

But, I'm with others (above): after zapping the entire paradox, how come there is already another Angel standing mere inches away from Rory in the cemetery? I suppose it could still just randomly have been there (but it's difficult for it, trying to move in the open in daylight) or, stretching the logic, wasn't part of the whole battery-farmed-time-travel thing and therefore wasn't zapped by the paradox?

Cold Fuzz
September 30th, 2012, 09:56 PM
I've watched it twice. This was a difficult episode to watch given what happens to the characters. I'll start off with the criticisms first since I want to end the review with the positives. :)

Negatives


The surrounding area. This is a small nitpick, but since local residents are somewhat aware of Winter Quay's sinister nature, I couldn't help but wonder if any of them have informed the authorities of what may be going on there. Then again, any police sent there likely disappear along with the other unfortunates that visit the place. That, and who in 1938 would believe anybody's story about moving statues? Still, you've got an entire apartment building where people are mysteriously disappearing. That's bound to attract some seriously unwanted attention for the Angels. How can they get away with a major operation like this without anyone noticing? Who the owns the building anyway? Grayle?

Winter Quay's interior. The Angels must be very good at housekeeping as the interior seems quite well-maintained. They must also have some typing skills since the names of various prisoners are on the walls. The only other explanation is that they must have a human servant working for them? That seems unlikely though.

The Statue of Liberty. First, I must say, I love the Moff's writing. I loved Blink, and most of his episodes before and after RTD's departure. Having said that, I just have to ask, how many shots of Scotch did he drink to include Lady Liberty in this episode? I mean, come on. :rolleyes: Like many other people here, I did not like the statue's role in this story. There's nothing wrong with hyperbole, but resorting to this kind of hyperbole... come on, Moff. You can do better than that. This isn't Ghostbusters and Lady Liberty ain't the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. :P I've always been a big proponent of realism and there's only so much suspension of disbelief I can stand before I just scowl. Something as big as the Statue of Liberty not being seen in New York? The implausibility is grating.

The Detroit Lions Win the Superbowl. No. Just... no. Those who are attentive to detail will notice the newspaper headline when Amy and the Doctor are at Central Park. Having said that, the chances of the Detroit Lions winning a Superbowl are about as likely as the Chicago Cubs winning a World Series trophy... two years in a row. :lol: For those who are not in the know, the Chicago Cubs haven't won a championship in over a century and the Lions haven't won a Superbowl since 1957. *sigh* I find the existence of time paradoxes more probable than either of those teams winning any championship.

The reading glasses. Ugh. :S I've always disliked glasses. Contact lenses are much better.

New York Geography. So, the Doctor and Amy get from Central Park and then way across downtown Manhattan near Times Square, and then all the way to the shoreline near the George Washington Bridge in a couple of sentences. Hmm... *shakes head* My Aunt Celeste lives in Queens so I'm pretty familiar with NYC's geography.




Positives


The opening titles. I haven't really liked any of the opening titles for series 7 except this one. The black vortex, foreboding lightning, and then transitioning to a ghostly greenish white was very effective.

Winter Quay's interior. OK, it's very unlikely that the Angels are good housekeepers, but nonetheless, the effect of the interior lighting and choice of colors is disturbing: Blood red carpet and walls, creaking floor, brooding and subdued lobby and stairwells, automated elevator and of course, Weeping Angels lurking in the dark. Yeah, you have to suspend your disbelief a little in order to wrap your head around a place like Winter Quay but visually, it truly is frightening. If such an interior existed in real life, I would not walk around a place like that without being heavily armed.

The typewriter in the background. As someone who writes for both pleasure and for work-related reasons, I loved it. :D

The Sting Song. OK, Sting isn't exactly my favorite but given how appropriate the lyrics were, it fit the opening perfectly.

Amy: "She's got ice in her heart, a kiss on her lips, and a vulnerable side she keeps well-hidden." :D

The Melody Malone book. Unlike River, I actually liked the cover. :lol: Plus, it's a brilliant plot device for time travel-related issues.

The Cherubs. I've disliked Cherubs for many years now, though I'm not even sure why. Thank you Moff for transforming something I dislike into a wonderfully chilling predator. The footsteps in the dark, the sharp teeth, and the sadistic childish laughter... excellent villains.

River. I can't help but wonder what she's doing in 1938 to begin with but when I saw her face, I just smiled from ear to ear. :D I know some fans dislike her large number of appearances in series 6 but I have missed her. Her moments with the Doctor--especially hiding her wounds, emotional damage, and not allowing the Doctor to see her age--all absolutely riveting for me and added wonderful depth to her character.

The Paradox. The idea of defying destiny and thwarting the Weeping Angels with a temporal paradox was a brilliant piece of writing, in my opinion. There's many, many layers of subtext and symbolism I could expound upon with the paradox, but to me, Amy & Rory's decisions in creating a paradox and unraveling the Angels' timeline speaks about the power of our choices. Their jump... wow. :eek::( Combined with the music and everything else that was happening, the jump was incredible. The glowing effect for the paradox was nicely done too.

A fixed point in time. I knew the moment I saw Rory's name on the gravestone early on in the episode that we were dealing with a fixed point in time. The Cherub near the fountain (which sent Rory back to 1938 in the first place) and the last Angel in the graveyard were likely the only survivors of the unraveled timeline, otherwise NY City would be littered with Angelic survivors. Those two Angels were likely part of the causal chain of events comprising the fixed point in time where Amy & Rory are sent back into the past.

Amy, Rory, and the Doctor. All three were in top form. As Amy & Rory are my favorite companions (with Martha just behind), I will miss them greatly. I feel bad for Rory's dad though. Will the Doctor ever tell him what happened, I wonder? Matt Smith really delivered with this episode, demonstrating a vast emotional range for the Doctor. His rage at discovering Amy's farewell chapter, his despair at losing the people he loved the most, and his usual bubbly enthusiasm, was all wonderful to watch.

Murray Gold's soundtrack. My goodness, the soundtrack for this episode broke my heart, especially the big leap for Amy & Rory and Amy deciding to let the angel send her back into the past. :( Musically, it was some of the best I've heard for the show, with an intensity matching tracks like The Sad Man With a Box and Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart. I'm grabbing the soundtrack for series 7 the moment it becomes available.
The final shot of a young Amelia Pond changing into a sepia tone. Goodness, that floored me. :( The finality of that shot was powerful.




Despite some problems with the episode, I absolutely loved it. :D I thought it was a great send-off for the two longest tenured companions for the Doctor in recent years. They took up a large portion of the Eleventh Doctor's life, filling over 300 years of his personal timeline. Souffle Girl has some big shoes to fill. :P

GodAtum
September 30th, 2012, 10:24 PM
I feel sorry for Rory's dad, he must of been lonely losing his family.

Coco Pops
September 30th, 2012, 10:24 PM
Ah OK. How long will people's memory of them last? I feel sorry for Karen because when a new companion comes along every forgets about the previous one. I cant even remember who the Ponds replaced.


The Ponds replaced the wonderful Donna Noble

Coco Pops
September 30th, 2012, 10:31 PM
Technically, of course, Amy and Rory haven't died: they've been zapped back in time to live to death... out of their normal timeline and without impacting history with their foreknowledge of (some) major events. [Depends how good their history is..]

But, I'm with others (above): after zapping the entire paradox, how come there is already another Angel standing mere inches away from Rory in the cemetery? I suppose it could still just randomly have been there (but it's difficult for it, trying to move in the open in daylight) or, stretching the logic, wasn't part of the whole battery-farmed-time-travel thing and therefore wasn't zapped by the paradox?



The Angels started out brilliant in the episode "Blink" but went downhill from there. They were once great villians but ths numerous changes to the way they work have made them jump the shark a bit iMHO.

And what was theat line the Doctor said when he saw that Angel in the gangster's appartment? "It's in pain" OMG it's a fricking statue belt it more with a hammer...... What would happen if you completely broke an Angel or smashed it to bits anyway?

P-90_177
September 30th, 2012, 11:59 PM
Yeah, I know.

I'm saying that that style of frames doesn't really suit him.

Well perhaps not but all of the Doctors attire isn't meant to suit him. He's supposed to look like an oddball. Perfectly in keeping with the character. Though personally I liked Amy with glasses better. :P


OMG one of the few good episodes this series.... Sad to say bye bye to Amy and Rory but that was done in such a brilliant way. Loved that the gravestone changed automatically when Amy died.

A rather good send off for them I think.

But yes howcome in "the city that never sleeps" no one notices the statue of liberty moving?


Oh and since when the the Angels take over statues? I thought in the beginning they were statues.... Did they mess with canon again?

We don't know enough about the Angels to say one way or another. We know the Angels are patient so perhaps they've just always been there, or maybe they can choose to take the form of existing statues. I see nothing contradictory about it.


Ah OK. How long will people's memory of them last? I feel sorry for Karen because when a new companion comes along every forgets about the previous one. I cant even remember who the Ponds replaced.

That's not how it works. When the Angels zap them back they are gone from their period of history but everything about their life until they were zapped back is still there. To all of Amy's and Rory's family and friends they will just know that they disappeared one day. So no one will forget them. Also I doubt that they will be just forgotten by the Doctor in the show either like he seems to with a lot of his companions. They had such a big impact in his life so even when he gets other companions he's going to still miss Amy and Rory. They were his best friends.


Yeah I'm with you on the statue of liberty :S that was hokey and sort of a cheap shot... I mean please...is absolutely nothing sacred in life....and how many times has the poor statue of liberty been used in scifi movies...it's just over used. But I did love it...although when they came back after having jumped off the roof just to lose them again...I thought that was an uneeded roller coaster of a ride.. I don't get how if the time line was erased and the angels supposedly were wiped out how they came back and got Rory in the end again? :S It seemed a bit... IDK.... weird there...I almost would have rather them not having come back at all after the fall...but maybe they didn't really come back? :S they were in the grave yard after all ...and maybe it was just amy there and she had to come to terms with Rory's death in her own way...and then join him...cuz she was three years older than him...the age on the tombstone....I didn't thikn Amy's character was older than Rory? :S Someone have anything to help with this?

Right ok, to clarify, the paradox didn't wipe the Angels from existence. Remember river described the paradox as like poisoning the well. The Angels feed of temporal energy, but a paradox is the wrong sort of energy. But poisoning isn't instant or a sure thing. The Angel that caught Rory was a survivor. Probably one of the strongest Angels before the paradox.
Don't think of the Angels as regular beings that are affected by time like everything else. The Tenth Doctor described them as beings of the abstract.


Technically, of course, Amy and Rory haven't died: they've been zapped back in time to live to death... out of their normal timeline and without impacting history with their foreknowledge of (some) major events. [Depends how good their history is..]

But, I'm with others (above): after zapping the entire paradox, how come there is already another Angel standing mere inches away from Rory in the cemetery? I suppose it could still just randomly have been there (but it's difficult for it, trying to move in the open in daylight) or, stretching the logic, wasn't part of the whole battery-farmed-time-travel thing and therefore wasn't zapped by the paradox?

See my answer from above here. The paradox was only ever designed to erase Rory's death and poison the energy the Angels were using. It didn't erase them, it killed them. Likewise the hotel is probably still there, just now the Angels are dead it will fall into disrepair.


I've watched it twice. This was a difficult episode to watch given what happens to the characters. I'll start off with the criticisms first since I want to end the review with the positives. :)

Negatives



The Detroit Lions Win the Superbowl. No. Just... no. Those who are attentive to detail will notice the newspaper headline when Amy and the Doctor are at Central Park. Having said that, the chances of the Detroit Lions winning a Superbowl are about as likely as the Chicago Cubs winning a World Series trophy... two years in a row. :lol: For those who are not in the know, the Chicago Cubs haven't won a championship in over a century and the Lions haven't won a Superbowl since 1957. *sigh* I find the existence of time paradoxes more probable than either of those teams winning any championship.

The reading glasses. Ugh. :S I've always disliked glasses. Contact lenses are much better.

New York Geography. So, the Doctor and Amy get from Central Park and then way across downtown Manhattan near Times Square, and then all the way to the shoreline near the George Washington Bridge in a couple of sentences. Hmm... *shakes head* My Aunt Celeste lives in Queens so I'm pretty familiar with NYC's geography.




Let's be honest here... We English don't give a crap about American Rugby so we really don't care who is likely to win the superbowl. Moffatt will have just picked a team that he actually knows the name of. :P

As for the geography, I doubt it's the first show or film to take liberties with New Yorks area, so I wouldn't really worry about that too much. Though I understand why things like that can easily irk people.

On a personal note though I'm the opposite to you. I can't stand contact lenses. I can't wear them at all. But I prefer people wearing glasses anyway. Much better look than without.


The Angels started out brilliant in the episode "Blink" but went downhill from there. They were once great villians but ths numerous changes to the way they work have made them jump the shark a bit iMHO.

And what was theat line the Doctor said when he saw that Angel in the gangster's appartment? "It's in pain" OMG it's a fricking statue belt it more with a hammer...... What would happen if you completely broke an Angel or smashed it to bits anyway?

I'd hardly say numerous changes. We've only seen them 3 times so far. In the Time of Angels two parter they were damaged and weak and didn't have enough energy to zap people back so they took to killing by just snapping people necks and such. I see no problem there. The only bit where they took liberties was where you could see them moving but that can easily be explained with a leap of imagination. The Angels are still a new enemy. In all of Doctor Who history not everything has ever been explained about one of his villains in one episode. The Angels are still evolving as characters.

Why shouldn't they be able to be hurt? Plus keep in mind that he also had it chained up, so not only was he taking a hammer to it, there's a good chance he was also starving it to death too.

Cold Fuzz
October 1st, 2012, 12:52 AM
Though personally I liked Amy with glasses better. :P

Can't agree there and I don't think Karen Gillan liked the frames much either, considering how they were constantly slipping on her nose. I had a pair of glasses somewhat like those 20 years ago and I couldn't stand those either.



Also I doubt that they will be just forgotten by the Doctor in the show either like he seems to with a lot of his companions. They had such a big impact in his life so even when he gets other companions he's going to still miss Amy and Rory. They were his best friends.


I agree there. Amy & Rory occupied a large portion of his life. He's 1200 now and the two of them were around for 300 of those years. He's going to be emotionally devastated for a long time.



Right ok, to clarify, the paradox didn't wipe the Angels from existence. Remember river described the paradox as like poisoning the well. The Angels feed of temporal energy, but a paradox is the wrong sort of energy. But poisoning isn't instant or a sure thing. The Angel that caught Rory was a survivor. Probably one of the strongest Angels before the paradox.
Don't think of the Angels as regular beings that are affected by time like everything else. The Tenth Doctor described them as beings of the abstract.

There have been Angels on Alfava Metraxis (these ones likely wiped out the Aplans), Razvahan, New York, and in England. If the Angel that zapped Rory was one of the Winter Quay Angels, that implies that the Angels themselves can travel through space and time at will, which makes perfect sense given how they feed and how they're scattered on different planets.



As for the geography, I doubt it's the first show or film to take liberties with New Yorks area, so I wouldn't really worry about that too much. Though I understand why things like that can easily irk people.

Small things, I don't mind. However, wildly reshaping NYC is something else. The city is huge, much larger than people might think. It could take literally an entire day to get from one side of Manhattan to the other by foot. And crossing the George Washington Bridge without a vehicle? That'd necessitate a subway trip.


On a personal note though I'm the opposite to you. I can't stand contact lenses. I can't wear them at all. But I prefer people wearing glasses anyway. Much better look than without.

I stopped wearing glasses over 18 years ago. They were quite a liability, always breaking or almost breaking, and constantly slipping on my nose. I can wear contact lenses for as long as 20 hours a day and I don't have any issues with them. I don't have to have something moving around on my face constantly and with contact lenses, I have much more peripheral vision than glasses. As for how glasses look, it's all a matter of taste.

Blencathra
October 1st, 2012, 01:29 AM
Can I just say I thought Amy's glasses were a tribute to Diane Keaton in Annie Hall.

I have a theory. The Statue of Liberty is a weeping angel. However, it does not move. It is fixed in place by people looking at it.

However, remember the image of an angel becomes an angel. My belief is that the angel at Winter Quay was created by the picture of the Statue of Liberty in the lift. As for why people can't see it... well people don't seem to be noticing anything odd about the Winter Quay Apartments. So it seems to me that the angels are doing something there that prevents them from being seen.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8042/8042689303_50fb29bd8b_z.jpg

Cold Fuzz
October 1st, 2012, 01:39 AM
Can I just say I thought Amy's glasses were a tribute to Diane Keaton in Annie Hall.

I have a theory. The Statue of Liberty is a weeping angel. However, it does not move. It is fixed in place by people looking at it.

However, remember the image of an angel becomes an angel. My belief is that the angel at Winter Quay was created by the picture of the Statue of Liberty in the lift. As for why people can't see it... well people don't seem to be noticing anything odd about the Winter Quay Apartments. So it seems to me that the angels are doing something there that prevents them from being seen.



I'd give you some more green but I can't at the moment. :o Excellent observation about the Statue of Liberty's picture in the elevator. :D

The thing is though, the surrounding residents did notice something was grievously wrong with the Winter Quay building. At the very beginning, we see some locals warningly looking at Sam Garner as he enters the building. A little girl even imitates the Angels by covering her face/eyes with her hands so they definitely know something's amiss. At this point, I suppose the locals probably thought that the building was haunted.

Blencathra
October 1st, 2012, 01:47 AM
LOL. Thanks! I did wonder why such prominence was given to the picture in the lift. They made sure we saw it all nicely lit up on two separate occasions. :D

Were those people in surrounding buildings, or were they residents of Winter Quay trapped by the angels? I can't remember. Looks like I'll have to go & watch the episode for a fourth time. :D

Cold Fuzz
October 1st, 2012, 02:01 AM
LOL. Thanks! I did wonder why such prominence was given to the picture in the lift. They made sure we saw it all nicely lit up on two separate occasions. :D

That's right. The "an image of an angel becomes itself an angel" idea wasn't even mentioned but the Statue of Liberty picture does explain a few things.


Were those people in surrounding buildings, or were they residents of Winter Quay trapped by the angels? I can't remember. Looks like I'll have to go & watch the episode for a fourth time. :D

A 4th time? Whoa. :D Now those folks were in the surrounding buildings across the street. The old woman had an interesting expression on her face, a non-verbal "oh no, not another one about to disappear" look. The little girl covered her face briefly.

When we saw an exterior shot of the Winter Quay building, we could actually see the Angels in the stairwell.

Coco Pops
October 1st, 2012, 02:44 AM
Just on the glasses thing I too used to wear glasses that slipped all the time. I had rather thick glasses for both reading and distance (bifocals) but a few years back I had permanent implants placed inside my eyes. Now all I wear are a pair of glasses for reading or using the computer, and a pair of very thin glasses for distance.

Blencathra
October 1st, 2012, 06:31 AM
I found this on Tumblr, which I thought was very poignant.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8030/8043374090_6b6f3fa082_c.jpg

Coco Pops
October 1st, 2012, 07:22 AM
I found this on Tumblr, which I thought was very poignant.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8030/8043374090_6b6f3fa082_c.jpg

Is that meant to be Rory's dad? I think he'd punch the Doctor

Teddybrown
October 1st, 2012, 08:24 AM
Finally got to see it, I enjoyed it, but definately spoiled myself abit with the ending...
Looking forward to Christmas!

Sebbe
October 1st, 2012, 09:20 AM
I feel sorry for Rory's dad, he must of been lonely losing his family.

Wow. I honestly never thought about that. He even told them to go in The Power of Three and now he is never going to see them again.

squirrely1
October 1st, 2012, 09:43 AM
Thanks P90 for explaining the paradox ...that makes a little better sense...that it didn't wipe out all the angels...obviously a few survived. :S

As for Amy's glasses...I took them as more of a prop to help show her aging... I mean Rory and the Doctor went on about her lines and then River's comment about...never let him see you age. That was a tribute for how long they had been toghether and honestly how do you make Karen Gillian look older without it becoming distracting :S I mean it was just a way to show that she was aging IMO. They didn't bother me.

As for the Statue of Liberty again...even with the pic in the elevator that still bugged me that they took liberty (literally) *snort* with that. I just can't see that...it was just too large of a stretch for me...but meh I got over it cuz the rest of the ep was so awesome. :)

Oh and I would agree that the building wasn't really dealt with because it maybe people were afraid of it and just stayed away for the most part. NY citizens for the most part keep to themselves and maybe it was jut the wayward traveler or indigent people who wandered in there. People that may not be missed readily. :S Although it was pretty well kept but I didn't really think of that...that didn't really bother me so much. Maybe the landlord of the building has a cleaning crew and well maybe he goes through alot of people :S :eek: Temporary agencies FTW!!! hehehehe Gosh I'm bad. :P

Quizziard
October 1st, 2012, 10:00 AM
See my answer from above here. The paradox was only ever designed to erase Rory's death and poison the energy the Angels were using. It didn't erase them, it killed them. Likewise the hotel is probably still there, just now the Angels are dead it will fall into disrepair.

Let's be honest here... We English don't give a crap about American Rugby so we really don't care who is likely to win the superbowl. Moffatt will have just picked a team that he actually knows the name of. :P

I thought we saw the site without the hotel, due to the paradox collapsing?

For me, the Lions are an all-but unheard of team and I think Moffatt is better than that. For whatever reason, I think it was a deliberate choice of unusual team.

Crazedwraith
October 1st, 2012, 10:07 AM
Episode was a contrived bunch of rubbish.

It'd have been a much better exit if they'd just decided last week that their real life is more important to them than travelling with the Doctor.

Rather the same 'i'll never ever leave you doctor, unless something terrible happens.' 'next week: some thing terrible happnes' Approach they used with Rose and Donna.

Suddenly I have much more respect for Martha who at least managed to say 'its be fun but i'm going now' to the Doctor.

GateFanSamJack
October 1st, 2012, 01:11 PM
I loved this story. It was heart-wrenching. Excellent acting, lots of feelings.

That "don't show the damage" theme is interesting, but possibly a bit infantalizing for the Doctor. People get damaged, some heal, some don't. Endings do happen, what's he supposed to do then? Throw a tantrum like 2-year old who doesn't have the capacity to ...? ...n/m. Ah, well, it's deep and he's an ageless alien - let's roll with it.

---

I think the "image of an angel" is the most plausible way of explaining Lady Liberty. The person goes into the hotel, and any ideas they have about leaving get quickly squelched by that chestnut.

If the Angels had her move during a power outage (but kept enough lights on for Rory to witness his death), that means all our Statue of Liberty post cards are a risk.

Maybe her copper suit keeps people from seeing her, though.

---

It was cute seeing the Doctor act like he has a wife.

---

For such a high-falutin' production, Doctor Who sure does get sloppy with the continuity errors. The Angels were the main adventure and I get they weren't the main theme, but people were sloppy about having someone always looking at them, there's that little bit where the grip on River's arm changed...

The story didn't explain why the Doctor can't get to New York some other way, but I'll leave it at that lest I tempt someone to make Jersey jokes.

---

Perhaps now we have an explanation for little girl River going to New York in 1969.

GodAtum
October 1st, 2012, 01:38 PM
Episode was a contrived bunch of rubbish.

It'd have been a much better exit if they'd just decided last week that their real life is more important to them than travelling with the Doctor.

Rather the same 'i'll never ever leave you doctor, unless something terrible happens.' 'next week: some thing terrible happnes' Approach they used with Rose and Donna.

Suddenly I have much more respect for Martha who at least managed to say 'its be fun but i'm going now' to the Doctor.

I feel the same way too.




Perhaps now we have an explanation for little girl River going to New York in 1969.

Oh yeah i forgot about that. Anyone know?

Replicator Todd
October 1st, 2012, 04:00 PM
I loved this episode, a fitting yet sad way to the end of the Ponds. I went in spoiler-free ad was glad I did! At least they get to be together in the end. The Doctor just adds more reasons to love him in this episode, Matt as 11 is just fantastic! Loved the bits with him and River and his little tantrum. I was on the edge of my seat when the Pond duo jumped off the roof! I was in a very good mood at the end then, SURPRISE! My mouth dropped to the floor, but their exit was well done! Its never easy switching companions. Do we have to wait until Christmas?! :(

The Statue of Liberty was pretty ridiculous, I kinda expected it though in the beginning. Almost RTD like, but kinda neat in a Moffat way too. Looks like the Doctor now has a reason to blindly hate the Angels like he hates...say the Daleks?

I hope this doesn't mean seeing no more Rory Williams.

Coco Pops
October 1st, 2012, 05:32 PM
Episode was a contrived bunch of rubbish.

It'd have been a much better exit if they'd just decided last week that their real life is more important to them than travelling with the Doctor.

Rather the same 'i'll never ever leave you doctor, unless something terrible happens.' 'next week: some thing terrible happnes' Approach they used with Rose and Donna.

Suddenly I have much more respect for Martha who at least managed to say 'its be fun but i'm going now' to the Doctor.


You know what? After watching it a couple of times now I totally agree with this line of thought. Martha said "it's been fun but now I have to go to live my life" and that was that. Amy and Rory should have, and could have done the same.





---

It was cute seeing the Doctor act like he has a wife.

---



But I thought they were married, as per that ceremony at the end of the last series... It was in his direct timeline so it stands.

GateFanSamJack
October 1st, 2012, 06:10 PM
But I thought they were married, as per that ceremony at the end of the last series... It was in his direct timeline so it stands.

Yeah, they're definitely married. I just didn't expect him to act so attached. I expected a continuation of the vanity-laced flirting.

squirrely1
October 1st, 2012, 08:49 PM
You know what? After watching it a couple of times now I totally agree with this line of thought. Martha said "it's been fun but now I have to go to live my life" and that was that. Amy and Rory should have, and could have done the same.





But I thought they were married, as per that ceremony at the end of the last series... It was in his direct timeline so it stands.

well I just don't think having an exit like that every time with each companion would be very exciting... I mean I watch this show to be entertained and I think it's great to have these gut wrenching events and it makes sense that some of the companions will die never to return. I think Rory and Amy were just too close to the doctor that as long as they were alive he would always come back to them....and it would be hard for him to move on ....to take another companion. We saw in the Mercy ep that Amy said...you have been traveling alone too long...that shows us that even though Rory and Amy were attempting to have their own life...the Doctor was not able to pick up another companion. Possibly he was waiting to maybe go back and bring them along with him again...and maybe he didn't feel that he could "replace" them. So yeah I mean I get what you are saying....it hurts to see companions leave in such a dramatic fashion..but that is good story telling and it was what needed to happen for the Doctor to truly move in IMO. Amy and Rory were too close for them to simply say...."Ok it's been real...Later" :eek: :S And that be it. I wouldn't even feel right in him picking up a new companion after that....it would be sort of like he were abandoned and that to me would've almost been worse. I think this was a great wrap up for this run and while I feel sad... I also feel almost a sense of relief that he can move on now and find a new companion and not feel guilty about that. Cuz no one will replace Amy/Rory they will always be special to him....but he will find a new companion to be special in their own way.

Coco Pops
October 2nd, 2012, 08:44 PM
well I just don't think having an exit like that every time with each companion would be very exciting... I mean I watch this show to be entertained and I think it's great to have these gut wrenching events and it makes sense that some of the companions will die never to return. I think Rory and Amy were just too close to the doctor that as long as they were alive he would always come back to them....and it would be hard for him to move on ....to take another companion. We saw in the Mercy ep that Amy said...you have been traveling alone too long...that shows us that even though Rory and Amy were attempting to have their own life...the Doctor was not able to pick up another companion. Possibly he was waiting to maybe go back and bring them along with him again...and maybe he didn't feel that he could "replace" them. So yeah I mean I get what you are saying....it hurts to see companions leave in such a dramatic fashion..but that is good story telling and it was what needed to happen for the Doctor to truly move in IMO. Amy and Rory were too close for them to simply say...."Ok it's been real...Later" :eek: :S And that be it. I wouldn't even feel right in him picking up a new companion after that....it would be sort of like he were abandoned and that to me would've almost been worse. I think this was a great wrap up for this run and while I feel sad... I also feel almost a sense of relief that he can move on now and find a new companion and not feel guilty about that. Cuz no one will replace Amy/Rory they will always be special to him....but he will find a new companion to be special in their own way.


Yeah I get that. Makes perfect sense when you explained it like that.

The Flyattractor
October 3rd, 2012, 01:30 PM
Amy and Rory are roughly the same age. The numbers mean he died first. She outlived him by five years.

Thats really kind of average isn't it in real life?

BruTak
October 3rd, 2012, 01:44 PM
Thats really kind of average isn't it in real life?

I would say so, yes.

stargatefan234
October 5th, 2012, 09:56 AM
I'm sure they'll find a way to get the Ponds back, like The Doctor landing in New Jersey and just taking a bus, or perhaps travelling to a different part of the planet and just flying the Tardis there.

or a vortex manipulator, like presumably River used to give amy the book to afterword

GateFanSamJack
October 5th, 2012, 02:58 PM
I've decided the adventure part of this story was made way too subordinate to causing the emotional part of the story to happen and to trap the Ponds. Moffat didn't share enough about how the adventure made sense in his head.

The story was epically emotional with epic acting to back it up, but he needs to lay off making up rules for a bit and make the ones the show already has work.

IcarusAbides
October 5th, 2012, 03:09 PM
Never been a fan of the shift in the show towards Amy Pond with less Doctor so very happy to see her leave and hopefully never return(as Gillian herself has stated).

Wildrose-Wally
October 5th, 2012, 03:50 PM
but he needs to lay off making up rules for a bit and make the ones the show already has work.

He's the showrunner now, why should he be restricted to rules a predecessor made? He can make the rules and they will be canon.

GateFanSamJack
October 5th, 2012, 05:21 PM
He's the showrunner now, why should he be restricted to rules a predecessor made? He can make the rules and they will be canon.

Because he went too far and got sloppy. He made rules and ignored rules (old and new), according to whatever would make this story strand the Ponds and include the Statue of Liberty and it still had huge holes. He needs to reign it in and do the hard work of making a plot work.

Blencathra
October 6th, 2012, 06:16 AM
Well to my mind Moffat can do what he likes with the angels. They are his creation and he can do with them as he pleases. For example, if creatures etc weren't able to evolve then we would still have Daleks that could only run on metal floors and who couldn't go upstairs.

Quizziard
October 6th, 2012, 09:16 AM
According to the Doctor during their first appearance, they've been around since the beginning of the universe. That's a hell of a time to develop a specific genetic trait (i.e. quantum lock, which he was pretty specific about stating was absolute). So suddenly their fundamental defence changes?

stargatefan234
October 6th, 2012, 09:23 AM
So suddenly their fundamental defence changes?

what do you mean?

Coco Pops
October 6th, 2012, 09:38 PM
According to the Doctor during their first appearance, they've been around since the beginning of the universe. That's a hell of a time to develop a specific genetic trait (i.e. quantum lock, which he was pretty specific about stating was absolute). So suddenly their fundamental defence changes?


Now that's a hell of a back story.... Would love to see that fleshed out. How could they possibly have begun as a being at the beginning of the universe?

Quizziard
October 7th, 2012, 12:44 PM
what do you mean?

They should be completely locked in stone, in the presence of any other living thing (including other angels). Now they seem to be whispering, blowing out matches, moving in daylight in public, etc.

Ian-S
October 10th, 2012, 01:30 PM
Yeah, not one of the better episodes.

GodAtum
October 11th, 2012, 04:53 AM
Gillan recently spoke about her exit, saying: 'All I wanted was for her to go out in flames of blazing glory and she definitely does that. I couldn't have wished for a better way to go.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2215756/Matt-Smith-shows-moves-continues-filming-new-series-alongside-Jenna-Louise-Coleman.html#ixzz28zU8kdgd
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Really? I dont think she went out in a blaze of glory!

fumblesmcstupid
October 11th, 2012, 06:05 PM
I was watching "Time of the Angels" last night and River said that the angel (on the tape) had been in a private collection until the last century. *oh crap* what if that angel is the one Grayle had and is the one that sent Amy/Rory back in time?

Quizziard
October 11th, 2012, 09:04 PM
I was watching "Time of the Angels" last night and River said that the angel (on the tape) had been in a private collection until the last century. *oh crap* what if that angel is the one Grayle had and is the one that sent Amy/Rory back in time?

Because "Time of the Angels" is probably set in the 51st century? [Most River episodes are...]

Wildrose-Wally
October 13th, 2012, 01:27 PM
Please don't watch this if you haven't seen "The Angels take Manhattan" episode of Doctor Who yet!!

Doctor Who: P.S. - Series 7 2012 - BBC One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k)

Morgania
October 14th, 2012, 11:40 PM
The scene that should have been. That was nice.

Roach
November 2nd, 2012, 01:27 PM
I finally watched the episode last nite. Been putting it off since I knew something was going to happen with Amy and Rory although I did not know what.

I agree with much of what's been said already.... I don't understand why the Doctor couldnt go back to another point in time to get them, but whatever. Not my rules.

It took make a while to get used to the new Doctor and the Ponds... I've always been like that... so I'm sure it will take me a while to get used to his new companion....

All in all not bad. Hopefully we will still see River from time to time...

I wonder how many vortex manipulaters there are.... River has one.. Jack has one.. It would definitely come in handy. :-)

Flyboy
November 2nd, 2012, 04:29 PM
I finally watched the episode last nite. Been putting it off since I knew something was going to happen with Amy and Rory although I did not know what.

I agree with much of what's been said already.... I don't understand why the Doctor couldnt go back to another point in time to get them, but whatever. Not my rules.

It took make a while to get used to the new Doctor and the Ponds... I've always been like that... so I'm sure it will take me a while to get used to his new companion....

All in all not bad. Hopefully we will still see River from time to time...

I wonder how many vortex manipulaters there are.... River has one.. Jack has one.. It would definitely come in handy. :-)

Who says that River hasn't got Jack's?

Roach
November 3rd, 2012, 01:03 PM
Good point. It could be his.... and the way she jumps around the timeline it would be impossible to line up the dates of when they used it.

I hope they do another crossover or something... I miss TW.

Morgania
November 3rd, 2012, 11:52 PM
When did Jack loose his? I thought she got it from the wrist of a time agent (one that was missing an arm.)

Flyboy
November 8th, 2012, 03:47 AM
When did Jack loose his? I thought she got it from the wrist of a time agent (one that was missing an arm.)

He hasn't... (yet)

Crazedwraith
November 8th, 2012, 04:23 AM
There's no reason the beleive that there is one Vortex Manipulator in the entirity of time of space. Jack's was never indicated to be special. In fact quite the opposite, seems to have been standard Time Agent equipment.

Equally no reason afaik that River's VM is Jack's.

skydawn
November 17th, 2012, 08:01 AM
I just watch this episode and I was almost in tears. No more Amy and Rory? Crazedwraith will hate me for saying this, but I loved how involved River was in this episode. This is the first episode where River and the Doctor actually act as husband and wife!!! It was so sweet to see them holding hands and staying close to one another. I also loved that he asked her to travel with him!

skydawn
November 17th, 2012, 08:05 AM
1. So that detective just got sent back in time from 1938 to hell knows when?

2. River Song as an old pulp detective - not so bad!

3. "Do not go Yowsa!"

4. I've never seen the Dr quite as gooey over River before!

5. Statue of Liberty as an Angel is a bit OTT though!

6. RIP Ponds, suppose there are worse ways to go!

I just thought I comment on your post, because of #4. I just made a post about this! I loved the concept though. For once he acted like he was in love with her. It made my heart smile. And SPOILER *that he asked her to travel with him*....so amazing!

skydawn
November 17th, 2012, 08:07 AM
Is the Doctor erasing mention of himself everywhere or is that Oswin from episode 1 I wonder? Like River said in this episode everywhere she goes any mention of him is being erased?

I think that was in reference to Oswin. Since she erased the Doctors name from the Dalek database and they are his oldest enemies, maybe it's connected?

skydawn
November 17th, 2012, 09:18 AM
I've watched it twice. This was a difficult episode to watch given what happens to the characters. I'll start off with the criticisms first since I want to end the review with the positives. :)

Negatives


The surrounding area. This is a small nitpick, but since local residents are somewhat aware of Winter Quay's sinister nature, I couldn't help but wonder if any of them have informed the authorities of what may be going on there. Then again, any police sent there likely disappear along with the other unfortunates that visit the place. That, and who in 1938 would believe anybody's story about moving statues? Still, you've got an entire apartment building where people are mysteriously disappearing. That's bound to attract some seriously unwanted attention for the Angels. How can they get away with a major operation like this without anyone noticing? Who the owns the building anyway? Grayle?

Winter Quay's interior. The Angels must be very good at housekeeping as the interior seems quite well-maintained. They must also have some typing skills since the names of various prisoners are on the walls. The only other explanation is that they must have a human servant working for them? That seems unlikely though.

The Statue of Liberty. First, I must say, I love the Moff's writing. I loved Blink, and most of his episodes before and after RTD's departure. Having said that, I just have to ask, how many shots of Scotch did he drink to include Lady Liberty in this episode? I mean, come on. :rolleyes: Like many other people here, I did not like the statue's role in this story. There's nothing wrong with hyperbole, but resorting to this kind of hyperbole... come on, Moff. You can do better than that. This isn't Ghostbusters and Lady Liberty ain't the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. :P I've always been a big proponent of realism and there's only so much suspension of disbelief I can stand before I just scowl. Something as big as the Statue of Liberty not being seen in New York? The implausibility is grating.

The Detroit Lions Win the Superbowl. No. Just... no. Those who are attentive to detail will notice the newspaper headline when Amy and the Doctor are at Central Park. Having said that, the chances of the Detroit Lions winning a Superbowl are about as likely as the Chicago Cubs winning a World Series trophy... two years in a row. :lol: For those who are not in the know, the Chicago Cubs haven't won a championship in over a century and the Lions haven't won a Superbowl since 1957. *sigh* I find the existence of time paradoxes more probable than either of those teams winning any championship.

The reading glasses. Ugh. :S I've always disliked glasses. Contact lenses are much better.

New York Geography. So, the Doctor and Amy get from Central Park and then way across downtown Manhattan near Times Square, and then all the way to the shoreline near the George Washington Bridge in a couple of sentences. Hmm... *shakes head* My Aunt Celeste lives in Queens so I'm pretty familiar with NYC's geography.




Positives


The opening titles. I haven't really liked any of the opening titles for series 7 except this one. The black vortex, foreboding lightning, and then transitioning to a ghostly greenish white was very effective.

Winter Quay's interior. OK, it's very unlikely that the Angels are good housekeepers, but nonetheless, the effect of the interior lighting and choice of colors is disturbing: Blood red carpet and walls, creaking floor, brooding and subdued lobby and stairwells, automated elevator and of course, Weeping Angels lurking in the dark. Yeah, you have to suspend your disbelief a little in order to wrap your head around a place like Winter Quay but visually, it truly is frightening. If such an interior existed in real life, I would not walk around a place like that without being heavily armed.

The typewriter in the background. As someone who writes for both pleasure and for work-related reasons, I loved it. :D

The Sting Song. OK, Sting isn't exactly my favorite but given how appropriate the lyrics were, it fit the opening perfectly.

Amy: "She's got ice in her heart, a kiss on her lips, and a vulnerable side she keeps well-hidden." :D

The Melody Malone book. Unlike River, I actually liked the cover. :lol: Plus, it's a brilliant plot device for time travel-related issues.

The Cherubs. I've disliked Cherubs for many years now, though I'm not even sure why. Thank you Moff for transforming something I dislike into a wonderfully chilling predator. The footsteps in the dark, the sharp teeth, and the sadistic childish laughter... excellent villains.

River. I can't help but wonder what she's doing in 1938 to begin with but when I saw her face, I just smiled from ear to ear. :D I know some fans dislike her large number of appearances in series 6 but I have missed her. Her moments with the Doctor--especially hiding her wounds, emotional damage, and not allowing the Doctor to see her age--all absolutely riveting for me and added wonderful depth to her character.

The Paradox. The idea of defying destiny and thwarting the Weeping Angels with a temporal paradox was a brilliant piece of writing, in my opinion. There's many, many layers of subtext and symbolism I could expound upon with the paradox, but to me, Amy & Rory's decisions in creating a paradox and unraveling the Angels' timeline speaks about the power of our choices. Their jump... wow. :eek::( Combined with the music and everything else that was happening, the jump was incredible. The glowing effect for the paradox was nicely done too.

A fixed point in time. I knew the moment I saw Rory's name on the gravestone early on in the episode that we were dealing with a fixed point in time. The Cherub near the fountain (which sent Rory back to 1938 in the first place) and the last Angel in the graveyard were likely the only survivors of the unraveled timeline, otherwise NY City would be littered with Angelic survivors. Those two Angels were likely part of the causal chain of events comprising the fixed point in time where Amy & Rory are sent back into the past.

Amy, Rory, and the Doctor. All three were in top form. As Amy & Rory are my favorite companions (with Martha just behind), I will miss them greatly. I feel bad for Rory's dad though. Will the Doctor ever tell him what happened, I wonder? Matt Smith really delivered with this episode, demonstrating a vast emotional range for the Doctor. His rage at discovering Amy's farewell chapter, his despair at losing the people he loved the most, and his usual bubbly enthusiasm, was all wonderful to watch.

Murray Gold's soundtrack. My goodness, the soundtrack for this episode broke my heart, especially the big leap for Amy & Rory and Amy deciding to let the angel send her back into the past. :( Musically, it was some of the best I've heard for the show, with an intensity matching tracks like The Sad Man With a Box and Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart. I'm grabbing the soundtrack for series 7 the moment it becomes available.
The final shot of a young Amelia Pond changing into a sepia tone. Goodness, that floored me. :( The finality of that shot was powerful.




Despite some problems with the episode, I absolutely loved it. :D I thought it was a great send-off for the two longest tenured companions for the Doctor in recent years. They took up a large portion of the Eleventh Doctor's life, filling over 300 years of his personal timeline. Souffle Girl has some big shoes to fill. :P

I totally agree with you! Especially concerning River!

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
November 27th, 2012, 08:34 PM
I haven't seen this episode since it first aired, so I don't remember a lot. But I still hate the ending. I loved the episode! Most of it was awesome! I just can't stand how they left Amy and Rory. Heck, I don't even mind that they stayed in NYC. But the fact that they can never see the Doctor again? Not to mention Rory's dad and Amy's parents? I can't stand that!


It'd have been a much better exit if they'd just decided last week that their real life is more important to them than travelling with the Doctor.

Rather the same 'i'll never ever leave you doctor, unless something terrible happens.' 'next week: some thing terrible happnes' Approach they used with Rose and Donna.

Suddenly I have much more respect for Martha who at least managed to say 'its be fun but i'm going now' to the Doctor.
I totally agree! They could have just stayed home most of the time, and maybe went on "holiday" with the Doctor every now and then. One way they could have done it realistically is if they adopted a baby. They were obviously devastated that Amy can't have any more kids, but they can still have a chance to raise children. And that would make a good excuse not to travel with the Doctor anymore. Which would actually go along great with how the Doctor is Amy's "imaginary friend"...she grew up and her responsibilities as a mother now force her to give up her imaginary friend. It could be a metaphor for settling down and giving up traveling with the Doctor.


Perhaps now we have an explanation for little girl River going to New York in 1969.
Hey! Good point! That would be awesome if they had a mini-episode or a side-story showing River as a little girl getting to live with her parents! Heck, they could even get to raise her after all. Then maybe after they die she goes to Leadworth to grow up with them again (this time alongside them), and Amy talking about her "imaginary friend" is what triggers Melody's (River's) brainwashing and that's why she starts acting all wild and becomes obsessed with the Doctor.

mr_kennedy
December 4th, 2012, 06:30 AM
One thing about this episode and the ponds exit storyline is

Yes, they got sent back in time, and yes Rory saw his own grave, so they cannot return to the present, but does that really mean the doctor has to stop seeing them? he could always go back to the time they got sent back to, take them on adventures and send them back there, maybe even a quick hello to family members for Rory, just because They have an end date doesnt mean they have an end, i'm thinking this was intentional so they could some how return one day, kinda like Rose

just reiterating what most people have said :p

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 4th, 2012, 06:44 PM
I got the impression they were trying to make it more permanent. As a way of saying, "That's it, we're done with them. Onto the next companion." Even if there are plot holes and/or technical ways of having them return, that doesn't mean TPTB will do it.

scifan
January 2nd, 2013, 06:16 PM
One thing about this episode and the ponds exit storyline is

Yes, they got sent back in time, and yes Rory saw his own grave, so they cannot return to the present, but does that really mean the doctor has to stop seeing them? he could always go back to the time they got sent back to, take them on adventures and send them back there, maybe even a quick hello to family members for Rory, just because They have an end date doesnt mean they have an end, i'm thinking this was intentional so they could some how return one day, kinda like Rose

just reiterating what most people have said :p

I hope he does... would be sad if TPTB didn't have him visit. :o


I got the impression they were trying to make it more permanent. As a way of saying, "That's it, we're done with them. Onto the next companion." Even if there are plot holes and/or technical ways of having them return, that doesn't mean TPTB will do it.

River still needs to write the book so obviously she can go and visit any time and give Amy the book to publish. ...I have plot ideas in my head, but no time to write a fanfic... ugh.... Would be nice if River got Doctor to visit..... especially when River has to say "good-bye" to her parents. :(

mr_kennedy
January 2nd, 2013, 06:26 PM
I hope he does... would be sad if TPTB didn't have him visit. :o



River still needs to write the book so obviously she can go and visit any time and give Amy the book to publish. ...I have plot ideas in my head, but no time to write a fanfic... ugh.... Would be nice if River got Doctor to visit..... especially when River has to say "good-bye" to her parents. :(

River has a Vortex Manipulator like Jacks one, she can travel to any point in time without the use of the tardis, so maybe she can say hey sweetie lets go and visit mummy and daddy :lol:

scifan
January 2nd, 2013, 08:02 PM
River has a Vortex Manipulator like Jacks one, she can travel to any point in time without the use of the tardis, so maybe she can say hey sweetie lets go and visit mummy and daddy :lol:

I thought the one she had was Jack's....unless all Time Agents are handsome;).....I love your thinking. :D

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
January 3rd, 2013, 02:16 PM
I hope he does... would be sad if TPTB didn't have him visit. :o


River still needs to write the book so obviously she can go and visit any time and give Amy the book to publish. ...I have plot ideas in my head, but no time to write a fanfic... ugh.... Would be nice if River got Doctor to visit..... especially when River has to say "good-bye" to her parents. :(
True. =) And yeah, I get fanfic ideas a lot, but can never actually write them. >.<

Girlbot
January 3rd, 2013, 03:53 PM
I liked this episode, partly because it was Amy's last *activates force shields*. Mostly for the time issues involved. Sad ending for the doctor to lose the companions that way, but...
I did find the Statue of Liberty marching up to the building to be a tad silly.

scifan
January 3rd, 2013, 04:30 PM
True. =) And yeah, I get fanfic ideas a lot, but can never actually write them. >.<

Glad I'm not the only one... maybe one day I'll get the ambition to do it. Been ages since I wrote anything long. :)

I liked this episode, partly because it was Amy's last *activates force shields*. Mostly for the time issues involved. Sad ending for the doctor to lose the companions that way, but...
I did find the Statue of Liberty marching up to the building to be a tad silly.

Was definitely sad, but so well done. I thought seeing Lady Liberty as an "angel" was such a cool idea. We say the statue with the mom and boy move so why not her. Gotta through in that "NO WAY!" idea in once in awhile. IMHO. ;)

Brother Freyr
June 21st, 2013, 02:08 PM
Just finished a re-watch. Wow. A sad, sweet, powerful goodbye to the doctor's beloved companions (and in-laws). The episode hits all the right emotional notes for Amy and Rory's departure. Speaking of notes, Murray Gold outdid himself. I'm eager for the series seven soundtrack.

Others are correct, however, to observe that TPTB were sloppy with the rest. They need to adhere to their own established rules and also restrain themselves from excesses like the Statue of Liberty going for a walk.

So, story was emotionally pitch-perfect but but logically incoherent. I liked it, but inattention to the verse's rules snapped my suspension of disbelief more than I'd like.


I'm sure they'll find a way to get the Ponds back, like The Doctor landing in New Jersey and just taking a bus, or perhaps travelling to a different part of the planet and just flying the Tardis there.

or a vortex manipulator, like presumably River used to give amy the book to afterword

Yes, the doctor's insistence that Amy and Rory are lost to him appears arbitrary -- present only to serve a dramatic requirement -- considering what we've seen in the show. Okay, so the TARDIS can't land in Manhattan in 1938. Not really an issue. Land nearby. Land a year later. Pick them up with River's vortex manipulator. Their loss is poignant but nonsense.

Tristen1
June 26th, 2013, 12:04 PM
No ! You cannot say that their loss is nonsense. Well, yes it is actually.

I thought it was a rather clumsy way to ensure that Amy and Rory are lost to the Doctor in relation to the show. Karen had made it clear she didn't want to return. Arthur seemed more relaxed.

However, I did find it really nice that they didn't die. They went back in time and had their life together. That made their leaving far easier.

The episode was good, though not for the first time a major plot point hangs on Rory being a total idiot !. Didn't anyone tell him when you escape you don't go looking around the graveyard, you get into the TARDIS and GO !!!!

maneth
July 7th, 2013, 11:17 AM
I enjoyed this one, and I'm glad Amy and Rory got the chance to live out their lives together.