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View Full Version : The fate of Cersie's past pregnancies



slimjim
May 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM
I read on a wiki that that's suppose to be the implication, if that's true wouldn't it somewhat violate her assertion that a mother has no choice about loving her children regardless or their father or character?

escyos
May 30th, 2012, 09:22 AM
As I understand it, none of Cersei's children were Roberts, they were all whatshisfaces. She just didn't want her son to be tortured and killed by the invaders.

g.o.d
May 30th, 2012, 11:12 AM
Tommen is Jamie's son, like Myrcella. But both of them are very kind and actually were bullied by Joffrey in the past

VampyreWraith
May 30th, 2012, 12:20 PM
She was supposed to have been pregnant with Robert's child once, but had an abortion because she knew he was Robert's, and didn't want to have a child by him. Book Cersei is a bit nastier than tv show Cersei (imo). On the show, Cersei says that the child died shortly after birth(the way she says it seemed to imply natural causes, not that she had anything to do with it, to me anyway, haven't watched that scene recently, so she could have killed her baby).

Cold Fuzz
May 30th, 2012, 01:53 PM
She was supposed to have been pregnant with Robert's child once, but had an abortion because she knew he was Robert's, and didn't want to have a child by him. Book Cersei is a bit nastier than tv show Cersei (imo). On the show, Cersei says that the child died shortly after birth(the way she says it seemed to imply natural causes, not that she had anything to do with it, to me anyway, haven't watched that scene recently, so she could have killed her baby).

Exactly. :) And this is Cersei we're talking about. Would she kill an infant? Absolutely she would.

As for OP about violating the assertion that a mother has no choice but to love her children regardless of who the father is, again this is Cersei. In the end, she'll do what she wants and damn everyone else.

slimjim
May 30th, 2012, 02:05 PM
Exactly. :) And this is Cersei we're talking about. Would she kill an infant? Absolutely she would.

As for OP about violating the assertion that a mother has no choice but to love her children regardless of who the father is, again this is Cersei. In the end, she'll do what she wants and damn everyone else.
except she wouldn't want if she loved the child

Cold Fuzz
May 30th, 2012, 02:26 PM
except she wouldn't want if she loved the child

But Cersei didn't, which was why she terminated the pregnancy in the first place. She resented Robert's child being inside her. The part about loving a child regardless of who the father is very likely just window dressing for Sansa to accept potentially having Joffrey's children.

Brother Freyr
May 30th, 2012, 03:47 PM
But Cersei didn't, which was why she terminated the pregnancy in the first place. She resented Robert's child being inside her. The part about loving a child regardless of who the father is very likely just window dressing for Sansa to accept potentially having Joffrey's children.

Yes Cersei abhorred the idea of a child by Robert (and so drank the "moon tea" to induce miscarriage IIRC), but I believe her statement about children was sincere. Cersei loves every child she's ever borne. I'd say they're the only people in the world that she loves unconditionally.

Skydiver
May 30th, 2012, 04:09 PM
Book Cersei, IIRC, remarks more tahn once about how she'd fake robert out...he'd often get drunk before coming to do his husbandly visits, and she'd do her best to make sure he never quite got the deed accomplished, but let him think that he did.

Book Cersei terminated her own pregnancy, Show Cersei is a bit more sympathetic. Also very pragmatic. She planned ahead to kill Tommen and possibly herself. She had zero faith in Tyrion. In fact, she can't stand that he even exists. That is one thing from the book that is consistent. She'd just as soon kill him as look at him.

slimjim
May 30th, 2012, 04:13 PM
But Cersei didn't, which was why she terminated the pregnancy in the first place. She resented Robert's child being inside her. The part about loving a child regardless of who the father is very likely just window dressing for Sansa to accept potentially having Joffrey's children.
you can make a lot of things make sense if you just say the characters are lying, the problem with that is that it undermines the intended development of that character if the writer didn't intend for it to be a lie

Cold Fuzz
May 30th, 2012, 04:20 PM
you can make a lot of things make sense if you just say the characters are lying, the problem with that is that it undermines the intended development of that character if the writer didn't intend for it to be a lie

That's the beauty of Cersei's character. We really don't know if she's being sincere or if she's lying in that moment. Cersei would lie in a heartbeat if it served her purpose. That has been established quite firmly.

Does she truly love Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen? I think she sincerely does and despite her actions, she does come across as someone who does love the children. She loves them because Jaime is the father.

Did she love Robert? Goodness, no. And she didn't love the child that he gave her, hence the moon tea to induce miscarriage.

So from her actions and the respective outcomes, she was logically telling Sansa only a half-truth. Yes, she loves her children, but it does matter to her who the father is. If the father was irrelevant to her, she wouldn't have terminated her pregnancy with Robert's unborn child through induced miscarriage.

slimjim
May 30th, 2012, 04:34 PM
That's the beauty of Cersei's character. We really don't know if she's being sincere or if she's lying in that moment. Cersei would lie in a heartbeat if it served her purpose. That has been established quite firmly.

Does she truly love Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen? I think she sincerely does and despite her actions, she does come across as someone who does love the children. She loves them because Jaime is the father.

Did she love Robert? Goodness, no. And she didn't love the child that he gave her, hence the moon tea to induce miscarriage.

So from her actions and the respective outcomes, she was logically telling Sansa only a half-truth. Yes, she loves her children, but it does matter to her who the father is. If the father was irrelevant to her, she wouldn't have terminated her pregnancy with Robert's unborn child through induced miscarriage.
it undermines the point of that scene if Cersei was lying
aborting a baby is massively different from killing a live infant to most people's minds

Brother Freyr
May 30th, 2012, 04:44 PM
it undermines the point of that scene if Cersei was lying
aborting a baby is massively different from killing a live infant to most people's minds

People are hyper-sensitized to the word "abortion," at least they are in the U.S. Cersei used the medieval equivalent of a "morning after" pill. She missed a period, and so she went to the maester for that special tea. IMO, it doesn't undermine the sincerity of her statement.

But as Cold Fuzz said, she frequently lies. I think the "preponderance" of evidence weighs in favor of sincerity in that moment, but there's no certainty for us viewers. We have to accept the uncertainty (or not watch TV shows with complex characters).

VampyreWraith
May 30th, 2012, 05:09 PM
She doesn't mention aborting/miscarrying a child on the show(not that I remember anyway). Show Cersei mentions giving birth to a black haired child(Robert's child) that died soon after he was born. She tells this to Catelyn while she is greiving over Bran(after Jaime nearly killed him). I'm not sure if she killed that child, since I don't see a reason for her to talk to Catelyn about a newborn baby she killed at that point in time, and Cersei sounded sincere from what I can remember(though I guess she still could have killed him). Show Cersei just seemed to really feel bad about Bran, overall she comes off as more symapthetic and softer than book Cersei.

It is true in both books and the show that Cersei is manipulative, she does lie, she does love all her children more than anything else, and would do anything for them.

Skydiver
May 30th, 2012, 05:56 PM
i have to wonder if the reason for killing robert's child isn't because it was robert's child, but because it endangered her own.
'the seed is strong' is a major plot point. and a way to ID robert's kids....black hair. If cersei had both blond and black haired kids, she endangered hers and jamie's kids by bringing up doubt as to their paternity.

her devotion to Joff may be fading in seeing how he acts, but her devotion to tommen and mycella remains. she'll kill for them.

VampyreWraith
May 30th, 2012, 06:04 PM
Was it her first child, if so she wouldn't have had to worry about her kids with Jaime yet(though she could have been planning ahead I guess)? For some reason I was under the impression that the child that died(was aborted whatever) was her first child, and after that she made sure to never get pregnant by Robert again.

The abortion in the books made more sense to me if she hated Robert that much early on, than carrying a baby to term just to kill it right after it was born.

Skydiver
May 30th, 2012, 06:09 PM
I can't recall. it could have been her first pregnancy. And yeah, the moon tea is far different from infantcide.

if you want to go with the 'baby died of natural causes' theory (and face it, in times like is portrayed, infant mortality is 50% or better), it could also be argued that she made sure she never got pregnant again so she wouldn't have to risk burying it.

Cold Fuzz
May 30th, 2012, 06:33 PM
I'm pretty certain Robert's child was Cersei's first pregnancy, and that she did indeed terminated the pregnancy out of hatred for Robert. Not long after the miscarriage, she resumed her relationship with Jaime. She despised Robert because he called her "Lyanna" in the bed on their wedding night. Since she hadn't been with Jaime, the baby could only have been Robert's.

VampyreWraith
May 30th, 2012, 06:40 PM
Yeah, either way she was only pregnant with Robert's child that one time, and made sure it never happened again.

I suppose I can see her killing a newborn, it does happen in RL even when woman don't hate their husbands. I can definately see book Cersei doing it, for me it's just the way the Lena Heady plays Cersei(especially in the first season), that makes it a bit harder for me to see her killing a baby.



On the show did she terminate the pregnancy or did she actually give birth and the baby died(or was killed)? For some reason I remember her telling Catelyn that she once had a beautiful dark haired baby, and that the the baby lived for a few hrs before it died? I dunno, I might be confusing things.


*I was bored and couldn't sleep, and not remembering what was said about the baby was bothering me lol, so I watched the scene in Kingsroad where Cersei is talking to Catelyn at Bran's bedside.(I feel like such a dork for actually looking this up lol :P)

Cersei: "I lost my first boy, a little black-haired beauty. He was a fighter too, tried to beat the fever that took him."

Brother Freyr
May 30th, 2012, 06:51 PM
Show Cersei mentions giving birth to a black haired child(Robert's child) that died soon after he was born. She tells this to Catelyn while she is greiving over Bran(after Jaime nearly killed him).

A child born of Robert is a departure from the books; the writers might have changed it so that Cersei could feed a more sympathetic line of dialogue to Catelyn while consoling her.



I'm not sure if she killed that child, since I don't see a reason for her to talk to Catelyn about a newborn baby she killed at that point in time, and Cersei sounded sincere from what I can remember(though I guess she still could have killed him). Show Cersei just seemed to really feel bad about Bran, overall she comes off as more symapthetic and softer than book Cersei.

Yeah, I too don't recall anyting in the show to suggest Cersei killed her baby. Since book and show part ways with an actual birth, the miscarriage in the book becomes irrelevant to the show.



she does love all her children more than anything else, and would do anything for them.And she may even have loved and grieved for the child she lost, despite Robert's parentage, just as she told Catelyn. And consistent with what she (Show Cersei) told Sansa about mothers having no choice but to love their children.

I agree Show Cersei seems more sympathetic and softer than Book Cersei.

VampyreWraith
May 31st, 2012, 05:40 AM
A child born of Robert is a departure from the books; the writers might have changed it so that Cersei could feed a more sympathetic line of dialogue to Catelyn while consoling her.

Yeah, thats, how I saw it, I knew that scene with Catelyn wasn't in the books(though sometimes separating what happened in the books and what happened on the show can get a bit confusing, I start to think I'm imagining things lol). In the books, I believe she tells Ned about her self-induced miscarriage when he confronts her about the paternity of her living children.



Yeah, I too don't recall anyting in the show to suggest Cersei killed her baby. Since book and show part ways with an actual birth, the miscarriage in the book becomes irrelevant to the show.


And she may even have loved and grieved for the child she lost, despite Robert's parentage, just as she told Catelyn. And consistent with what she (Show Cersei) told Sansa about mothers having no choice but to love their children.

I agree Show Cersei seems more sympathetic and softer than Book Cersei.

Yep, if she didn't kill her baby and actually loved him, then she was actually being honest with Sansa.

I'm not sure where in the show(or even if) it's supposed to be implied that she killed the baby she gave birth to. It could be that whoever wrote that on that wiki page, just assumed that it was implied that Cersei killed her baby from the way the character is written in the books; and because in the books she terminated the pregnancy out of hate for Robert.

Skydiver
May 31st, 2012, 10:41 AM
I think also....abortion is such a touchy issue that I have to think that HBO could have thought 'hey, we go with the cersei and robert's child died' aspect we can ignore the 'cersei aborted her baby' aspect' and ignore that hot button issue.

It's just like other aspects that were ignored, such as during the riot there were members of the court that were assaulted who are mentioned quite often in teh book, but that aspect was ignored in the show.

There's some content issues they don't fuss about as much, and others that they do. abortion and gang rape seem to be tweaked to possibly make the show more paletable.