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View Full Version : who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?



slimjim
May 3rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
obviously if Renly hadn't been assassinated

Shylodog
May 3rd, 2012, 12:24 PM
Renly. It was all but certain, that's why Stanis and Melissandre assassinated Renly in the dead of night.

Gen. Chris
May 3rd, 2012, 12:42 PM
Is this really even a question? 100,000 vs...what, 5,000? On an open battlefield?

Ukko
May 3rd, 2012, 01:00 PM
300 Spartans. :D

Crazedwraith
May 3rd, 2012, 02:27 PM
iirc in reality they had several thousand non-spartan backup. And had a chokepoint to defend. i.e) ideal conditions.

Stannis had neither.

slimjim
May 3rd, 2012, 02:53 PM
Is this really even a question? 100,000 vs...what, 5,000? On an open battlefield?
then why was Catelyn so worried?

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 3rd, 2012, 03:05 PM
then why was Catelyn so worried?
She doesn't want to see them waste time on each other when they could be fighting the Lannisters. It's time they don't have, plus it means less men to fight the Lannisters with.

Gen. Chris
May 3rd, 2012, 04:42 PM
As Mighty 6 said, every man lost in a battle between brothers is a man that can't be sent against Joffrey and the Lannisters. It may seem harsh to say that the death of men between the two brothers is a waste while their deaths at the hands of the Lannisters wouldn't be a waste, but it's kind of the truth.

At least in the end only one man, Renly, had to die for the conflict to end, at least from the point of view of myself and the people that haven't read the books. I have no idea if this comes back to haunt Stannis or not and I'd rather not know :P

slimjim
May 4th, 2012, 04:39 AM
As Mighty 6 said, every man lost in a battle between brothers is a man that can't be sent against Joffrey and the Lannisters. It may seem harsh to say that the death of men between the two brothers is a waste while their deaths at the hands of the Lannisters wouldn't be a waste, but it's kind of the truth.

At least in the end only one man, Renly, had to die for the conflict to end, at least from the point of view of myself and the people that haven't read the books. I have no idea if this comes back to haunt Stannis or not and I'd rather not know :P
in my view what Renly was doing was necessary, his brother would have been (or will be?) a terrible king

Ser Scot A Ellison
May 4th, 2012, 05:52 AM
Renly,

Stannis would have been trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's forces. There would have been no room for Stannis to manuver. However, recognize this wasn't 100K v. 5K. It was more like 10-15k v. 5k. Renly rode ahead with his vanguard which was mostly cavalry and left his foot behind.

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Renly,

Stannis would have been trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's forces. There would have been no room for Stannis to manuver. However, recognize this wasn't 100K v. 5K. It was more like 10-15k v. 5k. Renly rode ahead with his vanguard which was mostly cavalry and left his foot behind.
None of that happened in the show though.

Storm's End was taken out, and Renly had his entire force with him. More than likely in the show, hypothetically Stannis would have retreated to Dragonstone and become very difficult for Renly to pry him out of there.

Ser Scot A Ellison
May 4th, 2012, 08:54 AM
TM6P,

Renly moved a 100K man force from the middle of the Reach to Storms End... in a couple of days?

:shocked:


Also, isn't that going to screw up a rather huge plot point surrounding the Battle of the Blackwater later this season? The majority of the Reach forces support the Lannisters against Stannis

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 4th, 2012, 09:20 AM
TM6P,

Renly moved a 100K man force from the middle of the Reach to Storms End... in a couple of days?

:shocked:


Also, isn't that going to screw up a rather huge plot point surrounding the Battle of the Blackwater later this season? The majority of the Reach forces support the Lannisters against Stannis

Storm's End just doesn't happen.

They've taken it out of the adaptation. In the series, Renly is camped on the coast in the Stormlands assembling his forces. Stannis comes with his fleet to negotiate. It doesn't end well, so he sends Davos in a boat with Melisandre under the cliffs below Renly's camp, one shadow baby later, no more Renly, and his former bannerman are swearing allegiance to Stannis, with the exception of the Tyrells who leave with Littlefinger, who's also in the camp at the time in the series.

In the series Stannis appears to have more men than he does in the books, but the basic plot points are the same, Renly is dead, Stannis has enough troops to attack Kings Landing and the Tyrells have gone over to the Lannisters side.

Selina
May 4th, 2012, 09:49 AM
in my view what Renly was doing was necessary, his brother would have been (or will be?) a terrible king

Stannis is the older brother, so if one of the two has any claim to the throne it would be him. Besides Stannis is a capable commander, understands war and probably knows how to run a kingdom. His downsides obviously are that he isn't very popular and too uncompromising for his own good at times. Renly on the other hand is very popular, but has little else going for him that I could see (either in the show or in the books).

slimjim
May 4th, 2012, 12:21 PM
Stannis is the older brother, so if one of the two has any claim to the throne it would be him.
I don't care about that even slightly

Besides Stannis is a capable commander, understands war and probably knows how to run a kingdom.
where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander

His downsides obviously are that he isn't very popular and too uncompromising for his own good at times. Renly on the other hand is very popular, but has little else going for him that I could see (either in the show or in the books).
what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy, his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings and he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot

Ser Scot A Ellison
May 4th, 2012, 01:07 PM
Slimjim,

Robb doesn't want Westeros. Just the North and the Riverlands.

ETA

Sorry you obviously ment Joffery.

HoloRob
May 4th, 2012, 05:50 PM
I don't care about that even slightly

where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander

what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy, his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings and he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot

Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.

Stannis also sat on his brother's small council, as master of ships. He is very capable as a leader, probably the most honourable king too. He's tough, but fair. He doesn't go out of the way to make people like him however, which means most of the realm simply doesn't like him. If he were made king, I could see a fairly large % of the realm end up taking the black, which to be fair would probably be a few good thing with the others resurfacing.

slimjim
May 5th, 2012, 03:47 AM
Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.
the Dothraki are good fighters but nothing else, they know so little about politics that they have to be told like children not to steel from people helping them.
the distinction between wildlings and northerners may have started out as an arbitrary one but has since as a result of it's self become meaningful owing to the fact that it meant wildlings where cut of from the rest of civilization where the northerners where not


Stannis also sat on his brother's small council, as master of ships. He is very capable as a leader, probably the most honourable king too. He's tough, but fair. He doesn't go out of the way to make people like him however, which means most of the realm simply doesn't like him. If he were made king, I could see a fairly large % of the realm end up taking the black, which to be fair would probably be a few good thing with the others resurfacing.
I'd be more inclined to believe that if Ned's objection to Renly putting himself forward had been "your brother is a better king" not "your brother is a better solider"

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 5th, 2012, 06:11 AM
Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. Even if Jorah would have lost in single combat on horseback (and that's highly debatable) it doesn't matter. Skill in single combat does not win battles or wars, the ability for a force to fight as a disciplined unit, and the ability of the commander to make use of that unit effectively is what decides victory in battle. And frankly while the Drothraki are savage warriors, if they came up against a combined arms Westerosi force lead by a good commander, they'd be beaten, badly.

The Drothraki may be loosely based on the Mongols, but they possess none of the advantages that made the Mongols such an effective fighting force. Unlike the Mongols they are undisciplined, tribal, lightly armed and armoured, lack heavy cavalry, engineers, siege weapons and levies.


The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.
Ok firstly the Nightswatch has a hell of a lot to worry about from the wildings, since Mance Rayder has put together a force of 100,000 with the intention of marching south.

Secondly, again the wildlings may be fierce and savage warriors, but they are also tribal and undisciplined. They don't even have steel weapons or armour, and their primary advantage over the Nightswatch is that they outnumber them massively. Again if they met a Westerosi force of equal number in open battle, they'd be smashed to pieces.

Ser Scot A Ellison
May 5th, 2012, 06:40 AM
Robert was a horrible King.

Selina
May 6th, 2012, 05:33 AM
I don't care about that even slightly
Some of the nobles of westeros disagree, but this is a minor point anyway.


where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander
Which is still more than anyone would say of Renly.


what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy
Agreed, but neither is Stannis or anyone else opposing Joffrey.


his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings
Again this is true for all current contenders for the throne of westeros. Daenerys isn't part of the current war and Mance Rayder doesn't give a damn about who sits on the iron throne. So what's your point in bringing this up as a plus for Renly ?


he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot

You do realize that Stannis sat on the small council, too, right ?

So Stannis is an accomplished soldier, has at least as much experience on the council as his brother (and given his age probably more) and actually seems to know what he is doing, while Renly just plays at war and thinks being popular makes him a good king. Any other arguments why Renly would be the better king ?

slimjim
May 6th, 2012, 08:19 AM
Which is still more than anyone would say of Renly.
if that was true ned would have said



Agreed, but neither is Stannis or anyone else opposing Joffrey.
each of the things I listed where intended to mark Renly out as a good king taken all together not separately


Again this is true for all current contenders for the throne of westeros. Daenerys isn't part of the current war and Mance Rayder doesn't give a damn about who sits on the iron throne. So what's your point in bringing this up as a plus for Renly ?
Daenerys is contender from the audience's perspective and I'm talking about who I want to be king




You do realize that Stannis sat on the small council, too, right ?
I don't think we've ever bee told that


So Stannis is an accomplished soldier, has at least as much experience on the council as his brother (and given his age probably more) and actually seems to know what he is doing, while Renly just plays at war and thinks being popular makes him a good king. Any other arguments why Renly would be the better king ?
even if stannis sat on the small council his brother's comment implies it didn't prepare him for kingship very well

Cold Fuzz
May 6th, 2012, 01:47 PM
Just to clarify: During Robert's reign, Stannis sat on the council as Master of Ships while Renly sat on the council as Master of Laws.

Renly doesn't have the kind of battle experience Stannis does. But he understands people better. Stannis would be good at winning the throne while Renly would've been better at keeping the throne.

Shylodog
May 6th, 2012, 06:02 PM
I don't think we've ever bee told that

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/guide/houses/sbaratheon/stannis-baratheon/

When you go to HBO's viewer guide, it explains it under Stannis's profile. One of those pesky things that you would generally refuse to believe, since you didn't catch it in the shows. Except that it's specifically there to help keep viewers properly informed about the characters in the series.

Ser Scot A Ellison
May 6th, 2012, 07:47 PM
Stannis was on the Small Council. Who disputes that?

Cold Fuzz
May 7th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Stannis was on the Small Council. Who disputes that?

Certainly not those of us who know his backstory. ;)

python490
May 14th, 2012, 10:54 AM
Stannis has the experience and is most probably a better military leader but often in war numbers do matter. Renly had the larger army if he was smart and didn't try to be the "hero" he should have won if they had battled. Stannis himself was worried about the larger force that Renly possessed. Stannis who is an experience warrior is worried then it is for good reason.