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GateWorld
April 26th, 2012, 03:38 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/game-of-thrones/s2/a-man-without-honor/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/a-man-without-honor-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">GAME OF THRONES - SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/game-of-thrones/s2/a-man-without-honor/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">A MAN WITHOUT HONOR</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 207</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Theon attempts to save face as he searches for a group of escaped prisoners, while Jon struggles with his captive north of the Wall. Cersei gives Sansa some personal advice, while in Qarth Daenerys finds herself caught up in a power struggle as she seeks to recover her "children." Jaime uses a visit from a relative to his advantage.</DIV>
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Cold Fuzz
May 13th, 2012, 11:17 PM
I just finished viewing the episode and the encore presentation will air in 7 minutes. :D

I loved Dany's scenes in this episode, especially when she declared that she had no need of trust; one of the most powerful moments for her this season. The scene with Pyat Pree and Xaro was quite shocking to me personally, especially how it was such a departure from the book.

It's an interesting alteration for what's coming in A Dance with Dragons as the Thirteen and Qarth are supposed to declare war on Dany when she disrupts the slave trade in Yunkai, Astapor, and Meereen.

I loved the scenes with Tywin and Arya. The dynamic between the two of the them is impressive. And I love the subtle hints as to what's coming for Arya. That external shot of Harrenhal was brilliant, showing us the shape of the place.

And then there's the story at Winterfell: Dagmer's interplay with Theon is interesting. Ah, Theon and his schemes... :P

I wonder how Bran's storyline is going to proceed right now...
...if they've made the getaway that I think they have. Jojen & Meera Reed aren't even in the storyline yet. I suppose they'll rewrite it so that Osha has greenseer abilities and teaches more about this to Bran & Rickon? *shrugs*

Very interesting moment between Tyrion and Cersei. They may loathe each other on a certain level but they're still family. Their respective internal conflicts about whether to love or hate each other really showed well in their scene.

Jon & Ygritte... nice cinematography. Something about their chemistry seems forced and unnatural though. *shrugs*

I liked the scene between Alton & Jaime. :lol:

Definitely looking forward to next week.
Blackwater approaches! :D

Gen. Chris
May 13th, 2012, 11:45 PM
Knew Jaime was cruel, but never imagined him killing his own. I can't imagine Tywin would be happy to learn Jaime killed a family member, even if it meant his own return.

Cold Fuzz
May 14th, 2012, 12:32 AM
Knew Jaime was cruel, but never imagined him killing his own. I can't imagine Tywin would be happy to learn Jaime killed a family member, even if it meant his own return.

You have a point there. Tywin may be harsh but, as we've seen, he follows his own code, even if nobody understands it well. Tywin would not approve of killing another Lannister and would likely castigate Jaime for it. Jaime would likely lie about killing Alton Lannister though... so Tywin would probably never know the truth.

Skydiver
May 14th, 2012, 06:21 AM
The almost understanding between cersei and tyrion was interesting. She knows her son is a monster, knows that her brother is right and is kinda helpless at the moment and vulnerable. is it true or is she playing? Don't know but it is interesting.

and i love arya and tywin. he's almost a co-conspirator and seems a bit protective of the girl, even though he doesn't know who she is.

magictrick
May 14th, 2012, 06:42 AM
It is kind of ironic how Cersei tells Sansa to love no one but your children, when at the same time she knows what a monster her own child has become.

I think my favourite scenes are still the ones with Arya and Tywin. The have a good rapport despite what we know about their differences.

The scenes in Qarth are totally new to me, which is a good thing, as I don't know what to expect at all.

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 14th, 2012, 11:17 AM
Knew Jaime was cruel, but never imagined him killing his own. I can't imagine Tywin would be happy to learn Jaime killed a family member, even if it meant his own return.

Jaime was the man who threw a child out of the window. And he told Cersei "The boy won't talk. And if he does, I'll kill him. Him, Ned Stark, the King, the whole bloody lot of them until you and I are the only people left in this world." It's pretty clear he meant that. I think the episode did a subtle job of showing that he was not doing well being caged. He felt he was out of options, and when Jaime's out of options, he starts killing people.

Anyway the rest of the episode was grand. Excllent performances all round, more greatness from Charles Dance and Maisie Williams, plus that was a beautful shot of Harrenhal. Loved the Qarth sequences, so deliciously creepy, they have made things rather more exciting, but things to seem to heading on a trajectory parallel with the book, with the House of the Undying. And the scenes were Winterfell were good, they especially went their with the mutilated bodies of the boys, that was a nasty surprise for non book readers I bet.

Skydiver
May 14th, 2012, 11:40 AM
I think to make the book 'fit' in a show they are condensing the Qarth bits, which is fine with me. Happening more 'efficiently' is a good thing, IMHO.

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 14th, 2012, 12:16 PM
I think to make the book 'fit' in a show they are condensing the Qarth bits, which is fine with me. Happening more 'efficiently' is a good thing, IMHO.

Actually the opposite is happening, they are giving more for Dany to do. If they stuck to the books it would be rather dull. The dragons being stolen and the 13 being assassinated wasn't in the books.

Skydiver
May 14th, 2012, 12:20 PM
Maybe condensing was the wrong word but...it's moving faster. Be it them speeding up events or them adding events it's not the 'she's 10 feet away at the end of the book from where she started it' idea.

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 15th, 2012, 10:36 AM
Maybe condensing was the wrong word but...it's moving faster. Be it them speeding up events or them adding events it's not the 'she's 10 feet away at the end of the book from where she started it' idea.
Indeed. If they stuck to the book, there would be no plot movement, just endless scenes of wandering round Qarth. :D

Gen. Chris
May 15th, 2012, 04:44 PM
Indeed. If they stuck to the book, there would be no plot movement, just endless scenes of wandering round Qarth. :D

Well that makes me SOOOO looking forward to reading the book...

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 15th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Well there actually aren't even that many Dany chapters in the second book. If they had stuck rigidly to that, they would have either had to stretch her scenes out, or have her barely in a lot of eps. Wouldn't have really worked for the show.

The Mighty 6 platoon
May 18th, 2012, 07:40 AM
I rewatched this today and had a couple of interesting thoughts.

Firstly when Tywin has Arya eat his food, he's actually using her as an impromptu food tester. Believing that there was a recent assassination attempt on him, he's seeing whether Arya was involved, she could poison his food, so he made her eat it to see if she was involved.

Also with Jaime, his actions suggest that he's trying to force a resolution to his situation. He could have just asked for Alton's help, lured the Karstark guard in, knocked him out and escaped, but instead Jaime kills both Alton and the guard. Yet actually this works to Jaime's advantage, in a number of different ways. As he points out, the Starks make good jailers, even though he escapes he is quickly recaptured. Killing Alton means he doesn't have him in tow when trying to escape. One man probably has far less chance of being detected than two. But on another level both Alton and the Karstark's death serve Jaime's purposes. As I said Jaime himself point out the Starks are good jailors, there was very little chance that Jaime would manage to slip away undetected. I think Jaime knew this, and realised that any escape attempt would probably result in his recapture. But he has put the Stark's in a problematic situation, they are faced with chronic problems with overcrowded conditions for prisoners, and they can't put Jaime with them now, as he's proved he'll kill the other prisoners to try to escape. With the Karstarks wanting blood, Robb and Cat now either having a choice of releasing him or trying to use him to make a trade for Stark prisoners with the Lannisters, or executing him to appease the Karstarks.

This I think is what Jaime want. He knew that his chances of escape, even if he got out his cage were slim. And it's clear from his dialogue that he was not doing well as a prisoner, chained up like a rabid dog and covered in his own filth. So he forces the situation so he gets some sort of "escape," either the Starks are forced right now to release him or try and trade him in return for someone like Sansa, or he gets executed, which might not seem like a nice option, but judging from Jaime's comments before his attempted escape, he might see as "release" from his imprisonment.

Skydiver
May 18th, 2012, 09:07 AM
good point about Tywin. He's both testing Arya and winning her loyalty. At her age he stands a good chance, if he shows her some kindness, she'll give him her loyalty. Not that he'll trust her very far, but maybe just far enough to serve his means

Gen. Chris
May 18th, 2012, 11:29 AM
I caught on to using Arya as a food tester pretty quickly. We were watching it and I said "Oh that son of a..."

And my watching companions were confused, so I explained it to them.

Cold Fuzz
May 18th, 2012, 06:48 PM
I rewatched this today and had a couple of interesting thoughts.

Firstly when Tywin has Arya eat his food, he's actually using her as an impromptu food tester. Believing that there was a recent assassination attempt on him, he's seeing whether Arya was involved, she could poison his food, so he made her eat it to see if she was involved.


I caught on to using Arya as a food tester pretty quickly. We were watching it and I said "Oh that son of a..."

And my watching companions were confused, so I explained it to them.

Excellent points. :) I had almost forgotten that cupbearers have historically functioned as food tasters.

Gen. Chris
May 18th, 2012, 09:08 PM
I'm surprised he didn't use someone else...I mean, a cup bearer isn't exactly a loss to anyone, but Tywin seems to genuinely enjoy conversing with Arya. Surely her loss would mean a bit more to him than another lackey. Tywin doesn't exactly hold back when basically saying that she is more intelligent than some of his officers...


Unless of course I'm seeing too much in the relationship between the two. An officer is more important to the war effort, of course, and perhaps not the best tool to use for a food tester, but from seeing Tywin's exchanges with Arya, he seems to be a bit more compassionate than when the audience first "meets" Tywin.

Skydiver
May 19th, 2012, 05:19 PM
I dunno, i'm thinking less fond and more intrigued. She's a high born girl pretending to be a low born boy. why? who is she? whose family does she belong to? is she valuable?

I never got the impression from the book that he had any suspicion that she was Arya, but he knows she's someone. ANd that someone might end up being valuable.

Gen. Chris
May 19th, 2012, 07:28 PM
I dunno, i'm thinking less fond and more intrigued. She's a high born girl pretending to be a low born boy. why? who is she? whose family does she belong to? is she valuable?

I never got the impression from the book that he had any suspicion that she was Arya, but he knows she's someone. ANd that someone might end up being valuable.

Perhaps.

And why would he know? From what I have gathered he has only ever met Ned. The only way he could think she was a Stark is if he thought she looked like Ned or Catelyn (which, by the way, I think they casted her excellently. Arya and Catelyn definitely pass for daughter and mother, in my opinion). Though, wasn't Arya described as looking more like her father in the first book?

Skydiver
May 19th, 2012, 08:27 PM
He could be putting two and two together....yes, the Lannisters claim they have Arya, yet no one has seen her. A high born girl is missing in King's landing, and here's a high born girl pretending to be a boy, and perhaps she's a girl with a northern accent (can't recall if there was ever a mention of different dialects/accents between areas, teh only real thing I recall is the bastards of each area having their own last name, Snow, River, etc)

He likely doesn't know and has no way to know, but he does know that she's a high born pretending to be something she isn't. ANd perhaps the mystery intrigues him. a young girl smart enough to disguise who she is when he's surrounded by a bunch of men he himself deem stupid. He possibly has them all pegged, he can read them and their actions and little they do surprise him, but here's this young thing with her secrets.