What was Jack's job anyway?

[zbuffin]

I know they say he was "special forces" but he wasn't. First of all Special Forces applies ONLY to an Army designation. The Special Forces, also colloquially known as the green berets, are part of Special Operations. In this way all Special Forces are Special Operations but not all Special Operations Forces are Special Forces.

Jack being an Air Force officer cannot be Special Forces, he can however have worked with a Special Forces unit. The U.S.A.F. has, primarily, two branches of Special Operations Forces, Combat Controllers and Pararescuemen. These men combine to form what is known as Special Tactics Squadrons which rarely deploy as combined teams. Instead these STS units "loan" individuals to Special Forces, DEVGRU, Delta, NAVSPECWAR, MARSOC, and Ranger elements.

In addition to these two jobs there are also Combat Weathermen, who can be and often are attached to the same units above at times. TACPs ( Terminal Air Control Parties) can be, through additional training, attached to Airborne, Ranger, Armored Calvary, Infantry, or other Army units as well as, rarely, Marine or Navy units. There are also SERE specialists who can, thought again rarely, be attached to other units for specific mission sets.

My problem with all this is the fact that each and every one of these jobs are enlisted ONLY jobs. Recently The Air Force has created CROs and STO (Combat Rescue Officers and Special Tactics Officers) but Jack was around LONG before these were available. The only job that has been around for any length of time to have been available is an ALO (Air Liaison Officer) which to qualify for he would have to have been a pilot.

This seems to be supported by the show as he is often the go to guy when it comes to testing or flying the X-301 and X-302 program fighters. However, he never wears pilot wings. The major issue here is that unlike every other job badge awarded in the Air Force "Wings" if EVER awarded are REQUIRED to be displayed above every other badge on a uniform. They hold a place of honor that no other award holds for the United States Air Force. If, indeed, he had ever been a pilot whenever he was wearing his blues you would see them and whenever he was wearing BDUs that display both name and rank they would have to have a cloth patch of the wings on them as well. The ONLY caveat to the rule is when wearing a uniform that lacks both name and rank or in a combat environment where identification as a pilot could be cause to incur "undue" additional stress if captured.

So again I ask what freakin' job did Jack have in the USAF that was "special forces?" The answer is either he was indeed an ALO and the costume department had a glaring oversight when making his uniform or there was a secret task force created long ago in the Air Force that I am unaware of (highly unlikely as I was Special Operations in the Air Force and a large part of classroom was dedicated to history of special operations) that he was a part of.

[SF_and_Coffee]

I think "Special Forces" was a mistake in nomenclature. I think the idea of Jack having been a pilot is mistaken too, for a variety of time-related reasons that I won't go into here and now but will be happy to discuss if you really want me to.

I satisfy most of the rest by choosing to view the Gateverse as a universe very similar to but not precisely identical to our own, in which Special Tactics was around far enough back and using officers of Jack's caliber for him to have been in that position for some time prior to the Stargate program being implemented. Assuming a parallel but slightly divergent universe from our own is really the only way to make most of the show's military and timeframe details work, especially if one is not a fan of throbbing headaches. (And trust me, for a fanfic writer who is a stickler for details and proper research, it's even worse!)

[Flyboy]

I think "Special Forces" was a mistake in nomenclature. I think the idea of Jack having been a pilot is mistaken too, for a variety of time-related reasons that I won't go into here and now but will be happy to discuss if you really want me to.

If I might - it's ONLY the USA that reserves the term 'Special Forces' for a particular group. In the rest of the world (and notably in the country that invented special forces, the term is a catagory that various other groups can fall into. For example, in Britain, the SAS, SBS and SRR are all 'special forces' and the SFSG is a special operations force. It is generally agreed outside of US military parlance, that SF is the higher tier and SOF is the lower tier, with SOF being slightly more conventionally structured and focused than the more unconventional SF.

As a result, it doesn't surprise me that a Canadian production would use the term SF in place of the US term SOF.



As for Jack - his backstory is ****ed. Frankly. There is no way he was both SF/SOF and a sodding test pilot. No way in hell.

[AlexanderD]

I agree with everything that Flyboy stated above.

Now, I can attest to the fact that Air Force personnel have indeed attended both Ranger School, and SFAS(Special Forces Assesment and Selection). While the Air Force personnel that make it through SFAS and the Q course are not awarded an 18 series mos identifier, graduation would entitle them to wear the tab.

[fems]

Was it ever explicitly stated he was Special Forces? The only thing that comes to my mind is when Sam says he was Special Forces trained to fight mind control techniques in Hathor. All the other references I can recall are about Special/Black Operations...

[SF_and_Coffee]

If I might - it's ONLY the USA that reserves the term 'Special Forces' for a particular group. In the rest of the world (and notably in the country that invented special forces, the term is a catagory that various other groups can fall into. For example, in Britain, the SAS, SBS and SRR are all 'special forces' and the SFSG is a special operations force. It is generally agreed outside of US military parlance, that SF is the higher tier and SOF is the lower tier, with SOF being slightly more conventionally structured and focused than the more unconventional SF.

As a result, it doesn't surprise me that a Canadian production would use the term SF in place of the US term SOF.

I wouldn't be either, IF they weren't A) making a show about US military personnel, and B) at least allegedly running all of this stuff past the USAF to be vetted for at least some semblance of accuracy. Also, weren't at least some of the writers American?

Basically, somebody screwed up, and somebody else didn't catch it. Typical SNAFU.

As for Jack - his backstory is ****ed. Frankly. There is no way he was both SF/SOF and a sodding test pilot. No way in hell.

Completely agree. In order to be able to write Jack as a character with something resembling a reasonable and coherent personal history, I actually had to go and write a character timeline for him, altering things so they would make more sense. And even then, there are just some things that don't jibe without the assumption of a parallel but slightly different universe from our own. But I have him in Special Operations or Special Tactics, running black ops for a number of years, which would encompass the idea of his potentially having had all kinds of training from all kinds of sources, so it at least offers some sort of framework to hang things on...

[Flyboy]

I wouldn't be either, IF they weren't A) making a show about US military personnel, and B) at least allegedly running all of this stuff past the USAF to be vetted for at least some semblance of accuracy. Also, weren't at least some of the writers American?

Basically, somebody screwed up, and somebody else didn't catch it. Typical SNAFU.

To be fair - mixing up the terms Special Forces and Special Operations Forces is, when compared to some of their more atorcious military mistakes, one that I can live with. Now - Sgt stripes and Major pips on the same guy at the same time, or somebody remaining a Major for 12 years... not so much.

Completely agree. In order to be able to write Jack as a character with something resembling a reasonable and coherent personal history, I actually had to go and write a character timeline for him, altering things so they would make more sense. And even then, there are just some things that don't jibe without the assumption of a parallel but slightly different universe from our own. But I have him in Special Operations or Special Tactics, running black ops for a number of years, which would encompass the idea of his potentially having had all kinds of training from all kinds of sources, so it at least offers some sort of framework to hang things on...

How on Earth did you reconcile the whole 'test pilot' thing?

[SF_and_Coffee]

To be fair - mixing up the terms Special Forces and Special Operations Forces is, when compared to some of their more atorcious military mistakes, one that I can live with. Now - Sgt stripes and Major pips on the same guy at the same time, or somebody remaining a Major for 12 years... not so much.

Not to mention using commissioned officers in any number of positions more likely to be filled by enlisted personnel in real life.

How on Earth did you reconcile the whole 'test pilot' thing?

I rejected it entirely as a mistake on the part of writers who were trying to be a bit too ambitious with all the things they wanted to pile up on Jack's resume. Sort of the same way I reject the idea of his having been in Vietnam, as that would also be impossible given that during the entire conflict Jack was either too young to be in the military or was an Academy cadet. Far as I'm concerned, he was never involved in Vietnam and was never a test pilot.

The writers actually made any number of gaffes in terms of timeline issues and other things. For example, look at what he was allegedly doing during the Persian Gulf War. It's nearly impossible to reconcile any involvement on Jack's part with Operation Proven Force (air combat operations out of Incirlik; see the Harlan Beck reference from "Fragile Balance") with his having been involved in ground combat missions in Iraq during what has to be that same timeframe, resulting in his becoming a POW (reference "A Matter of Time"). Granted, it isn't explicitly stated that this took place during the Gulf War, but I've looked for other known historical conflict points on which it could be hung, and haven't managed to find any. So as far as I'm concerned, the episode implies that it was during the Gulf War (and even then, a slightly alternate historical timeline must be assumed, since Jack claims to have been imprisoned for four months, and in our universe the POWs were released after roughly two months at most. I posit a slightly longer conflict having occurred in the Gateverse than occurred in our own.) Since I find the experience of having been left behind and its results to be far more crucial to Jack's character development as shown in canon -- his whole ethos of "no one gets left behind" seems to be centered on this -- than anything he might have done at Incirlik, which received no more than the throwaway Beck reference, I choose to interpret the Proven Force reference differently from some people. I see it as Harlan and Jack knowing each other before that but while Harlan served at Incirlik during the Gulf, Jack was on the ground in Saudi and involved in ops that took him over the border into Iraq.

[zbuffin]

To be fair - mixing up the terms Special Forces and Special Operations Forces is, when compared to some of their more atorcious military mistakes, one that I can live with. Now - Sgt stripes and Major pips on the same guy at the same time, or somebody remaining a Major for 12 years... not so much.

I agree that in as far as these writers typically can, and often do, screw the pooch on military related shows this is not such a bad oversight really. For me it is just an annoying one especially considering how easy it would have been to make Jack's back story and military history legit. As to a person remaining a Major for 12+ years I have persoanlly seen this happen. Not everyone can get promotions, sometimes it just doesn't happen.

How on Earth did you reconcile the whole 'test pilot' thing?

Well like I explained above, he could have been a pilot, then gone on to be an ALO which would have given him the chance to go to ranger, Q course, sniper, jump, air assault, etc. As to being a test pilot well that is unlikely but not impossible. I knew squared away captains who became test pilots as soon as they were eligible. Again that was the exception not the rule and we are talking about career aviators here. Guys who lived to fly and would never have gone off to do something else if they could have avoided it.

It isn't impossible to believe that Jack, being an AF academy grad, an intelligent man(even if he tries to hide it), a dedicated officer (look at his self control with Carter jeez) and an all around bad ass could have done these very specific things in this specific order in exactly the shortest amount of time. It is just hard to believe, especially when his uniform just doesn't support the logical arguments I often try to make on his behalf.

[Devlin Kyle SG-9]

There were hints (I'm thinking of the eps set in Central America) that his work MIGHT have not actually been for the Air Force directly. He might've been "seconded" to the CIA. So some of the things he said about what he did might have been "cover story", or at least working for the CIA might explain why he was doing things he wouldn't ordinarily be doing.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Devlin, you might enjoy reading this story. No, it isn't mine. But it covers exactly what you're talking about.

[Onealwasoverrated]

Well, if you knew people like Jack in real life, he would have to shoot you. He was one of those guys that are not allowed to wear designations, nor discuss who they are or what they really do. To answer the question, Jack studied deep space radar telemetry, as far as you are concerned. DISMISSED!

[SF_and_Coffee]

Jack has done things he can talk about, and things he can't. His own service record would show things completely unrelated to deep space radar telemetry, and that right there would call into question the cover story that the Air Force is using for the Stargate Program, which is why I think it was a shoddy cover story -- why put someone like Jack in a high position on a project unrelated to his prior experience?

I actually make allusions to this on more than one occasion in my fanfiction. It's sort of a running motif.

[Onealwasoverrated]

SF, speculation about that is walking a fine line. They can't seriously suggest that the armed forces and the government would lie to the American public, but they still need a "cover story" or the premise for the show is outlandish. If we want to apply the "what if" mentality to this subject, we have to realize that writers are confined from doing certain things, like making SG personel into "ghosts" or "scrubbed" personel.

They get around this by writing illegal groups like the NID, and the trust. Funny how the NID became the trust (private run not government) about the time the airforce started sponsoring the show, eh?

They provide enough detail to move the story and the series, and then leave the rest up to you to decide. The OP knows a few things, but he's comparing real life to fiction. If SG teams went off world (for real), they would likely not be allowed to associate with the public at all. They would also not exist in any public records either. Comparing real world special forces to a fictional character isn't practical. It can't be practical or the show would be shut down and the writers possibly charged with treason.

In short, they have to leave loopholes like that. It was shoddy. It had to be, because if it were too good, the government would snap the show up.

p.s. I'm friends with someone that was in the special forces or special operations, whatever you want to call it. They don't have "some things they can" and "some things they can't" talk about. Most of them are paranoid to the enth degree and keep bags of 556 ammo and body armor stashed in the woods. They don't talk about anything, ever.

[SF_and_Coffee]

SF, speculation about that is walking a fine line. They can't seriously suggest that the armed forces and the government would lie to the American public, but they still need a "cover story" or the premise for the show is outlandish. If we want to apply the "what if" mentality to this subject, we have to realize that writers are confined from doing certain things, like making SG personel into "ghosts" or "scrubbed" personel.

My only point was that they could've come up with a better cover. Not sure what, but you'd think something.

They provide enough detail to move the story and the series, and then leave the rest up to you to decide. The OP knows a few things, but he's comparing real life to fiction. If SG teams went off world (for real), they would likely not be allowed to associate with the public at all.

You know this how? No reason to keep them locked up, and I doubt they'd do that. People who work in Top Secret or Special Access projects still get to have lives. I know people in real life who work or have worked at those clearance levels (some in my own family). They don't get to talk about what they do, but they aren't kept under lock and key, either. If they were, there would've been years where I never got to see my own father, for example.

They would also not exist in any public records either. Comparing real world special forces to a fictional character isn't practical. It can't be practical or the show would be shut down and the writers possibly charged with treason.

And again, you're speculating here, and pretty far away from anything realistic, IMO.

In short, they have to leave loopholes like that. It was shoddy. It had to be, because if it were too good, the government would snap the show up.

Wow. Paranoid much?

p.s. I'm friends with someone that was in the special forces or special operations, whatever you want to call it. They don't have "some things they can" and "some things they can't" talk about. Most of them are paranoid to the enth degree and keep bags of 556 ammo and body armor stashed in the woods. They don't talk about anything, ever.

I'm friends with a few myself, and they're nothing like that. Sounds like you've only met the really crazy ones. The folks I know are pretty damn normal. They just can't talk about the things that are bound by security. But they get to have normal lives otherwise, and -- as your own story shows -- they aren't forbidden from mentioning that they are military or even in Spec Ops. But they can't tell you where they were and what they did or what they know... except for totally normal things that have no bearing on the classified stuff.

Also... my guess is that not everything Jack's ever done prior to the Stargate Program was classified. Not his entire career.