Timelines in Moebius

[Dave2]

If separate timelines in history exist in the world of Moebius, then we can assume that the timeline of the SGC from where SG1 went back into time continued on without SG1, and probably replaced them with a new team and continued on their adventures with a whole new history of dealing with the Ori, etc.

Sam kept saying that they could not do anything to change or affect history, but the very fact that they couldn't return to their own time changed history forever, and in fact the future history of Earth could have been altered completely because they were not available to fight the Ori, etc.

On the other hand, the SGC timeline of the altered history that developed because SG1 was lost in the past also went on its own way without virtually any knowledge of the world of stargates at least compared to the original world of Stargate SGC.

And finally, the third timeline had a whole SGC with knowledge of the ZPM after finding the second video (I presume they never encountered the first video that the second SG1 had found when they went back).

So there were THREE different histories going on, all as a result of the inability of SG1 to return to their own time. Now I ask you, WOULD IT HAVE BEEN WORSE had SG1 defeated the Jaffa who discovered their ship originally in terms of altering future history than what resulted from their decision to remain in ancient Egypt?

How much different could future history have become by virtue of them killing the Jaffa? Is it all dependent on the possibility that Ra would have taken the stargate with him? And if he HAD, the very worst that could have happened was that they would have returned to an Earth in the puddle jumper that knew nothing of the stargate program at all and might have been totally unknown in their own original world. BUT is that WORSE than living out their life in ancient Egypt, especially when anything they did in their lives in Egypt could itself have affected the future such as a failed uprising against Ra??

[ZRFTS]

Well assuming that multiple timelines exist; then they would be able to go on without SG-1 but there's a problem. What if a bunch of people forced them to go back in time; would they return to the same timeline, would a new timeline be created? A timeline is created if someone goes back in time and drastically alters the timeline; if that is taken as fact then someone who can alter the timeline can in fact create a new timeline whether or not they reveal themselves to people or not. If so then it can either lead to two explinations; that the ZPM was simply missing in the original timeline or that the ZPM was intended to be stolen, meaning they were destined to go back into time. Additionally, the timeline which involves the Stargate being found in Anartica would have to find a way to continue on because if they manage to go back in time and change things in a drastic way then it could erase the timeline, and separate timelines mean they go on as intended.

History may have been changed forever but the events that happen in history remain unchanged; there's still going to be the characters you've come to know and love but the trajectory has been changed quite a bit; meaning that the characters have different moments and different professions, possibly different personalities. If they can truly change history then people would be born differently, none of the characters we've come to know and love would exist. Think back to Continiumm; the timeline that they were in ceased to exist because Ba'al changed things in the past and it was only fixed when Mitchell came back to that point in time and stopped them. Now the original point in time is where the stuff happens, by changing anything; wouldn't that constitute as a new timeline or was it meant to happen?

As for the future; well I'm guessing it'd be the same except we don't have a Stargate, we don't have the advance progression of technology and the Gou'ald comes at a way later date then 1997 (they don't see Earth as a target; yet...)

[Snowman37]

If separate timelines in history exist in the world of Moebius, then we can assume that the timeline of the SGC from where SG1 went back into time continued on without SG1, and probably replaced them with a new team and continued on their adventures with a whole new history of dealing with the Ori, etc.

There are three timelines presented in "Moebius," but not in the way you think. When SG-1 went back in time and changed the past, the first timeline was nullified. When bizarro SG-1 did the same, there timeline was nullified. The third and final timeline is effectively the original restored, but with subtle differences. Each time you travel to the past, the future you came from is either changed a little bit or drastically. This is how time travel is presented in the two-parter. It is why it was so urgent for bizarro SG-1 to go back and set time right.

Sam kept saying that they could not do anything to change or affect history, but the very fact that they couldn't return to their own time changed history forever, and in fact the future history of Earth could have been altered completely because they were not available to fight the Ori, etc.

The very fact they were there at all had changed history already. What she meant was that they can't intentionally change history to get back to the future. That is why they made the video tape and buried it with the ZPM. The idea was to warn there future selves not to travel back in time as they would end up stranded in ancient Egypt. Unfortunately, an alternate future unfolded. I just loved that whole scene where bizarro SG-1 meets up with Jackson, and he realizes how screwed up the future is. haha As for the whole Ori saga... SG-1 returned to the future by never leaving the future to begin with thanks to the ZPM and video tape. Nice, eh? As for the original timeline without SG-1, like I say... ceased to exist or rather... morphed into the alternate timeline the moment the Puddle Jumper vanished to 3,000 BC.

On the other hand, the SGC timeline of the altered history that developed because SG1 was lost in the past also went on its own way without virtually any knowledge of the world of stargates at least compared to the original world of Stargate SGC.

True, the SGC (was it called that?) in the alternate timeline wasn't set up until a decade after it was in the original timeline. Alas, Apophis sent a fleet of pyramid ships to conquer the Earth. This necessitated SG-1 to travel back and set time right. Given the circumstances, the alternate Hammond would have supported them.

And finally, the third timeline had a whole SGC with knowledge of the ZPM after finding the second video (I presume they never encountered the first video that the second SG1 had found when they went back).

There was no second video. Well. You mean the 5,000-year-old video that bizarro SG-1 had? The video recovered with the ZPM in Egypt was the original left behind by the original SG-1, not the copy bizarro SG-1 brought with them.

So there were THREE different histories going on, all as a result of the inability of SG1 to return to their own time. Now I ask you, WOULD IT HAVE BEEN WORSE had SG1 defeated the Jaffa who discovered their ship originally in terms of altering future history than what resulted from their decision to remain in ancient Egypt?

Well, like I say, one timeline that kept changing or replacing the previous timeline, however you want to see it. The reason why Carter didn't want to engage the Jaffa is because she had no idea what the outcome would be. Even if the stargate were left on Earth, the future could still unfold differently.

How much different could future history have become by virtue of them killing the Jaffa? Is it all dependent on the possibility that Ra would have taken the stargate with him? And if he HAD, the very worst that could have happened was that they would have returned to an Earth in the puddle jumper that knew nothing of the stargate program at all and might have been totally unknown in their own original world. BUT is that WORSE than living out their life in ancient Egypt, especially when anything they did in their lives in Egypt could itself have affected the future such as a failed uprising against Ra??

If they'd just committed to living out their lives in ancient Egypt, the future would have been just fine. Instead; O'Neill, Carter (surprisingly), and Teal'c tried to overthrow Ra, get the rebellion rolling so they could go home. Alas, this backfired and created the alternate timeline. When bizarro SG-1 showed up, the future was already screwed, so all bets were off this time. All they could really do is make sure Ra didn't fly off with the stargate and hope that fixes the future.

[Dave2]

I find this so confusing, Snowman37, so bear with me. Why couldn't there be three independent timelines like alternative universes? Otherwise, how would you explain the two Cameron Mitchells in Continuum where the second one had a photo in his locker with his grandfather? That could have only happened had the grandfather taken the photo with the original Cameron and then given it to his grandson, the new Cameron.
Therefore, there must be independent timelines with nothing "nullified."

In the case of Moebius, our original SG1 left a video, and then the Bizarro group also left a video. But the "third" SG1 team only saw the second video. In any event, in this timeline all events subsequent to that episode involved a new SG1 timeline where they obtained the ZPM thanks to the video, which did NOT exist in the original SG1 timeline.

[Snowman37]

I find this so confusing, Snowman37, so bear with me. Why couldn't there be three independent timelines like alternative universes?

There can't, because then you're talking about parallel realities instead of time travel. At no point in "Moebius" did the Time Jumper take everyone to a parallel world. Rather, they traveled through time, screwed up history, and then their alternate selves traveled through time once more to fix it. It's a changing timeline. Basically, the original timeline becomes the alternate timeline becomes the restored timeline. It's like changing the coarse of a stream of water. Doing so doesn't create two streams. Make sense?

Otherwise, how would you explain the two Cameron Mitchells in Continuum where the second one had a photo in his locker with his grandfather? That could have only happened had the grandfather taken the photo with the original Cameron and then given it to his grandson, the new Cameron.
Therefore, there must be independent timelines with nothing "nullified."

If nothing is nullified, why was everyone and the Tok'ra city vanishing in the original timeline? The answer: it was shifting into the alternate timeline. Mitchell, Carter, and Daniel were exempted from this due to being in transit via wormhole. As for the two Mitchell's, I've explained this before in other discussion threads. If you travel back in time and change the future, you go uneffected, because you arrived in the past before the future began to change. If you radically change the future, you are simply a left over remnant, an anomaly that no one can explain except you with your wacky time travel story that no one believes.

In the case of Moebius, our original SG1 left a video, and then the Bizarro group also left a video. But the "third" SG1 team only saw the second video.

The video that the restored SG-1 watches is the one the original SG-1 filmed. I don't believe bizarro SG-1 made a video. If they'd left their copy of the original video, well... the original video would be 5,000 years old. The bizarro SG-1's copy would be 10,000 years old, because it was already 5,000 years old when they found it. Which do you think will survive the passage of time?

In any event, in this timeline all events subsequent to that episode involved a new SG1 timeline where they obtained the ZPM thanks to the video, which did NOT exist in the original SG1 timeline.

Bingo!

[Dave2]

At the end of the episode I thought I clearly understood that the Bizarro team made their own video.
Now how according to your view is this situation different than the situation of Cameron Mitchell in Continuum, where after he killed Baal he was talking to the captain who was his grandfather, and at the end a Cameron had the photo of him and his grandfather from that 1939 period in his locker?!

There can't, because then you're talking about parallel realities instead of time travel. At no point in "Moebius" did the Time Jumper take everyone to a parallel world. Rather, they traveled through time, screwed up history, and then their alternate selves traveled through time once more to fix it. It's a changing timeline. Basically, the original timeline becomes the alternate timeline becomes the restored timeline. It's like changing the coarse of a stream of water. Doing so doesn't create two streams. Make sense?


If nothing is nullified, why was everyone and the Tok'ra city vanishing in the original timeline? The answer: it was shifting into the alternate timeline. Mitchell, Carter, and Daniel were exempted from this due to being in transit via wormhole. As for the two Mitchell's, I've explained this before in other discussion threads. If you travel back in time and change the future, you go uneffected, because you arrived in the past before the future began to change. If you radically change the future, you are simply a left over remnant, an anomaly that no one can explain except you with your wacky time travel story that no one believes.


The video that the restored SG-1 watches is the one the original SG-1 filmed. I don't believe bizarro SG-1 made a video. If they'd left their copy of the original video, well... the original video would be 5,000 years old. The bizarro SG-1's copy would be 10,000 years old, because it was already 5,000 years old when they found it. Which do you think will survive the passage of time?


Bingo!

[Snowman37]

At the end of the episode I thought I clearly understood that the Bizarro team made their own video.

Na. SG-1 is viewing their ancient Egypt counterparts telling them how the timeline should be. O'Neill gives a concerned look when his other self says there's no fish in his pond. He asks Carter if everything is accurate, they don't have to do anything. She says yep, and he's all... "Great!" That made the scene where the fish leaps out of the water all the more entertaining. "Close enough." The restored SG-1 are completely unaware that there was ever an alternate timeline.

Now how according to your view is this situation different than the situation of Cameron Mitchell in Continuum, where after he killed Baal he was talking to the captain who was his grandfather, and at the end a Cameron had the photo of him and his grandfather from that 1939 period in his locker?!

The situation isn't different. Both stories deal with time travel, an alternate timeline, a restored timeline, and an original member of SG-1 stranded in the past. In "Moebius," the alternate timeline was SG-1's fault. In Continuum, it was Ba'al's. The only real fault that I find with Continuum is that it basically ripped off "Moebius." However, it was entertaining and different enough for me to overlook the similarities.

[Dave2]

So essentially three of the four teammates of SG1 broke their commitment not to change the future by provoking the rebellion against the goa'uld and getting killed. However, there must have been elements in the future that would have changed even without them doing that. In any case, one can assume that the very fact of being in the past itself could change things in the future unintentionally.

I still wonder how much really would have been so significantly changed had they retaken the ship and gone back to our time.

In any case, the SG1 after Moebius were NOT the same SG1 people as the ones before, just as the Cameron who joined SG1 was not the same Cameron as the one who was back in 1939. Now had Sam activated the time machine so that Cameron gone through Baal's time machine to escape say into 1959, the result would have been useless because Baal would have already destroyed the ship a second time in 1939.

In any case, had Cameron lived long enough to see the second Cameron born and grow up to join the SGC, we would have had two Camerons with experience in stargate travel alive at the same time. Thankfully Baal was killed in 1939 so that the new Cameron would not have to relive the time travel and let the process keep repeating itself endlessly. He didn't have the benefit of a Teal'c in Unending to stop the process from repeating itself.

[Snowman37]

So essentially three of the four teammates of SG1 broke their commitment not to change the future by provoking the rebellion against the goa'uld and getting killed. However, there must have been elements in the future that would have changed even without them doing that. In any case, one can assume that the very fact of being in the past itself could change things in the future unintentionally.

They tried to start the rebellion, hoping they could dig up the Puddle Jumper and go home afterwards. Carter was against going to the past to begin with for the reasons you stated. However, it's a TV show, and the writers suggest that a large event would have to happen to change the future. Ra leaving with Earth's stargate being this defining event.

I still wonder how much really would have been so significantly changed had they retaken the ship and gone back to our time.

At the end of "Moebius, Part 2," we see that fighting Ra's Jaffa and securing the stargate ultimately didn't change the future in any significant way. In other words, the original SG-1 could have retaken their ship without consequence. Oops! haha

In any case, the SG1 after Moebius were NOT the same SG1 people as the ones before, just as the Cameron who joined SG1 was not the same Cameron as the one who was back in 1939. Now had Sam activated the time machine so that Cameron gone through Baal's time machine to escape say into 1959, the result would have been useless because Baal would have already destroyed the ship a second time in 1939.

How is SG-1 at the end of "Moebius, Part 2" not the same as SG-1 at the beginning of Part 1? How is the original Mitchell in Continuum not the same as the one at the end of the movie? Both stories present a restored timeline that is the same as the original timeline with very subtle differences. Remember, it's a changing timeline, not a parallel world. The restored timeline is just the original, tweaked.

In any case, had Cameron lived long enough to see the second Cameron born and grow up to join the SGC, we would have had two Camerons with experience in stargate travel alive at the same time. Thankfully Baal was killed in 1939 so that the new Cameron would not have to relive the time travel and let the process keep repeating itself endlessly. He didn't have the benefit of a Teal'c in Unending to stop the process from repeating itself.

Well, even if Mitchell had lived long enough to see 2008 come around a second time... he wouldn't have been the one bumped to the alternate timeline and then travel back to 1939. It would have been his younger self who'd been with SG-1 for two or three years. Really, the original Mitchell would have had to assume a new identity so as to not accidentally change history. Everything had to happen again as it already did.

[Dave2]

So it's true that had Cameron gone back to 1959 instead of 1939 the process would have repeated itself all over again? And you believe that the "souls" of SG1 after Moebius were the same as before Moebius despite some small changes, such as not having to search out the ZPM?

They tried to start the rebellion, hoping they could dig up the Puddle Jumper and go home afterwards. Carter was against going to the past to begin with for the reasons you stated. However, it's a TV show, and the writers suggest that a large event would have to happen to change the future. Ra leaving with Earth's stargate being this defining event.


At the end of "Moebius, Part 2," we see that fighting Ra's Jaffa and securing the stargate ultimately didn't change the future in any significant way. In other words, the original SG-1 could have retaken their ship without consequence. Oops! haha


How is SG-1 at the end of "Moebius, Part 2" not the same as SG-1 at the beginning of Part 1? How is the original Mitchell in Continuum not the same as the one at the end of the movie? Both stories present a restored timeline that is the same as the original timeline with very subtle differences. Remember, it's a changing timeline, not a parallel world. The restored timeline is just the original, tweaked.


Well, even if Mitchell had lived long enough to see 2008 come around a second time... he wouldn't have been the one bumped to the alternate timeline and then travel back to 1939. It would have been his younger self who'd been with SG-1 for two or three years. Really, the original Mitchell would have had to assume a new identity so as to not accidentally change history. Everything had to happen again as it already did.

[Snowman37]

So it's true that had Cameron gone back to 1959 instead of 1939 the process would have repeated itself all over again?

Had he ended up in 1959, he could have warned Earth about what is to come and how the Goa'uld will eventually conquer the Earth. This would have allowed Earth 49 years to prepare for SG-1's arrival; Mitchell, Carter, and Teal'c. Instead of coming out into the frozen ship, they could have exited into an SGC that 1959 Mitchell helped to create. Go to Maybourne's planet, get the Time Jumper, and ta-da... they have an easy means with which to stop Ba'al. Find O'Neill or Sheppard, and they've got a pilot.

And you believe that the "souls" of SG1 after Moebius were the same as before Moebius despite some small changes, such as not having to search out the ZPM?

I believe the souls of SG-1 in the original, alternate, and restored timelines were all the same despite the changes to the timeline. O'Neill was still the pessimist, Carter the smart one, Daniel the believer, and Teal'c still wanted freedom for his people. If anything, Teal'c's life probably was unchanged up until SG-1 didn't show up until eight years later. They were still them, just... different. The restored timeline is just as SG-1 as the original.

[Dave2]

Speaking of alternate realities, I just discovered that in the 1960s there was an actor who starred in a western called The High Chapparal. HIs name was Cameron Mitchell. I wonder if the writers liked watching that series when they were kids......;-)
Now all we have to do is find out who the real Jack O'NEill, Samantha Carter, Daniel Jackson, Hank Landry and George Hammond were!

[Dave2]

By warning Earth he would not only have been interfering with history, but he may have interfered with the future life of the new Cameron who was born around 1965 or so..........then what??

[Snowman37]

In the alternate timeline created by Ba'al, Mitchell was already erased from existence when Ba'al killed his grandfather. If the original Mitchell had landed in 1959 instead of 1939, the timeline's already been damaged by Ba'al anyway. Mitchell won't exist, the SGC won't happen, and so on. However, he can explain everything to the U.S. Government, Air Force, CIA, whoever... set up the SGC decades early, wait for SG-1 to bump over in 2008, and then set time right before Ba'al shows up in 2009. Simple, no?