Elizabeth Weir: What's your verdict?

[Snowman37]

The last time we saw the real Elizabeth Weir was when she was left behind on Asuras in "Lifeline." Weir returned in "This Mortal Coil" where she was told her original self was killed, then the clone is killed at the end of the episode. Bummer. "Be All My Sins Remember'd" ends with the revelation that a single ship survived the destruction of Asuras. It's commanded by Elizabeth Weir! Is this Weir herself or another clone? We never find out until... "Ghost in the Machine." We learn that Weir's nanites were extracted and allowed to recreate Elizabeth Weir as a full Asuran. Presumably, this killed her human body as the Asuran nanites are what kept her alive. Revisiting the events of these episodes, what's your verdict on Elizabeth Weir in "Ghost in the Machine?" Everyone treated her like the enemy as if she were simply posing as Elizabeth Weir. Do you see her as the original Weir's consciousness in an Asuran body, an Asuran copy, or an Asuran posing as Weir?

My verdict is that the original Elizabeth Weir was last seen in "Lifeline." The Elizabeth Weir in "Be All My Sins Remember'd" and "Ghost in the Machine" is merely an Asuran copy of Elizabeth Weir, the characters view her as this, and it supports why she's left adrift in space. However, the ending is still tragic. Weir basically died three times. She died when her nanites were extracted to become AsuranWeir, the clone died, then AsuranWeir is left adrift in space.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I'm of the opinion that the Weir was saw in Ghost in the Machine was still the original Weir. Much of The significance of the episode is lost otherwise. I think it's fair to say that the Weir we saw in Be All My Sins Remember'd was the same one as Ghost in the Machine, she'd only be lying directly to the audience about that if it was not true. The last surviving replicators seem to have the same agenda as the ones in This Mortal Coil, so I don't think that the Weir we saw in Ghost in the Machine was lying about that either. Hence, I figure it was also her in Be All My Sins Remember'd too. But after everything that happened she wasn't quite the same person she was when she joined ht expedition nor could they be certain if it was really her either.

Plus, the alternative is that Weir died off-screen. It was unacceptable they'd do that to Ford, but Weir is even more important than he was so I'd say that would perhaps make it a dumber decision than I am willing to tolerate.

[Snowman37]

I'm of the opinion that the Weir was saw in Ghost in the Machine was still the original Weir.

Does that mean that SG-1's Replicarter was the original Carter? I don't think we'd be seeing AsuranWeir in the same light if her human counterpart had survived rather than allowed to die.

Much of The significance of the episode is lost otherwise.

Not necessarily, considering how the clone of Carson Beckett was received.

I think it's fair to say that the Weir we saw in Be All My Sins Remember'd was the same one as Ghost in the Machine, she'd only be lying directly to the audience about that if it was not true. The last surviving replicators seem to have the same agenda as the ones in This Mortal Coil, so I don't think that the Weir we saw in Ghost in the Machine was lying about that either. Hence, I figure it was also her in Be All My Sins Remember'd too. But after everything that happened she wasn't quite the same person she was when she joined ht expedition nor could they be certain if it was really her either.

I'll agree with you here.

Plus, the alternative is that Weir died off-screen. It was unacceptable they'd do that to Ford, but Weir is even more important than he was so I'd say that would perhaps make it a dumber decision than I am willing to tolerate.

For me, Weir died when her nanites were extracted and allowed to grow into AsuranWeir. That was the death of the original Elizabeth Weir. I suspect we might have actually seen this had Torri Higginson reprised the role.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I don't see why Elizabeth's nanites replicating an asuran body necessarily means she was killed. She said that they were "unleashed and allowed to replicate." I interpreted that as they transformed her body into a replicator while he consciousness remained infact. I don't think they use to word "extracted." Is Shepard also a copy after his body was transformed into some human/iratus hybrid in Conversion? I don't see why this is any different.

[Killdeer]

My verdict is that the original Elizabeth Weir was last seen in "Lifeline." The Elizabeth Weir in "Be All My Sins Remember'd" and "Ghost in the Machine" is merely an Asuran copy of Elizabeth Weir, the characters view her as this, and it supports why she's left adrift in space.

That's always been my thought as well. And it's supported by JM saying that they were considering a story for S6 (if they'd gotten it) where the original Elizabeth Weir would be found alive in an Asuran outpost. It's not canon of course since it didn't happen on screen, but the story wouldn't be possible if the Weir in GitM were the original Weir.

[Snowman37]

I don't see why Elizabeth's nanites replicating an asuran body necessarily means she was killed. She said that they were "unleashed and allowed to replicate." I interpreted that as they transformed her body into a replicator while he consciousness remained infact. I don't think they use to word "extracted." Is Shepard also a copy after his body was transformed into some human/iratus hybrid in Conversion? I don't see why this is any different.

Sheppard was only partially transformed, but he was still an organic being regardless. Let's say that Weir's nanites were unleashed and consumed all of her organic matter until she was 100% Asuran. Wouldn't that mean the death of Weir? Her essence may have remained, but what you call the original Weir, I call a perfect copy. How is AsuranWeir any different from the clone of Carson? Both thought of themselves as the original.

That's always been my thought as well. And it's supported by JM saying that they were considering a story for S6 (if they'd gotten it) where the original Elizabeth Weir would be found alive in an Asuran outpost. It's not canon of course since it didn't happen on screen, but the story wouldn't be possible if the Weir in GitM were the original Weir.

I wasn't all that mad about cancellation until this post.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I don't see her having a new non organic body as her being a copy. The writers could have easily wrote her as being a copy with new information in a later story like the one mentioned here, but since we never got that in the show, I decided to think of her as the original one since hers was the only story we got before it was canceled.

[Snowman37]

I don't see her having a new non organic body as her being a copy.

I define a person as body, mind, and spirit. Your mind is stored in your brain, hence brain death is death. Your body functions, but it's now an empty vessel. If the body and brain are consumed and replicated by nanites, is that not death? Sure, the consciousness would be copied into nanites as the brain is slowly consumed, but is that not death? Why would a soul be attached to a machine? I'm not suggesting that AsuranWeir be dismissed as nothing more than a toaster, but I think she should be recognized as a mechanism, a copy.

In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, a massive machine within a giant nebula-like cloud was heading to Earth. When the Enterprise investigated, the navigator was abducted by a probe. When the navigator returned, it wasn't the one who left the ship. She was a mechanism, the probe in a perfect mechanism replica of the ship's navigator complete with all of her memories and personality, but repressed by the probe's programming. The point is, except for the first officer who had dated her in the past, everyone considered her a machine, a thing, a replica.

This all boils down to a question. How do you define human life? Are we merely the sum of our consciousness stored within a brain? I define human life as the sum of body, consciousness, and soul. We can't exist without one except in death where our soul is released and moves beyond to heaven or hell (if you believe in that, I do).

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Well I'd think the question of the nature of a soul is one probably one for philosophers, and it's not really a discussion I'm especially interested in getting into. But as far as the show's lore goes, the Asurans said they were trying to replicate humans' souls but were unable to succeed yet. I believe the implication was they were trying to recreate that something that was uniquely human about our species that they thought would be the key to ascending. It was said that after Elizabeth joined the replicator population she seemed to be different and more human than anything the replicators had a part of their collective before. Since it was said that Oberoth feared she'd be a "human" influence on the population I think of it as if that which had made her uniquely human had remained infact during her transformation.

In Star Trek TMP, the Ilia probe was different than Elizabeth's nanite body. Her construction and her purpose were very different. Although, at the end of the film Kirk says he wants to record Ilia as "missing" so the question of whether she was alive or not was rather ambiguous in that movie.

There have been several instances where an individual's mind is transferred outside their body in the Stargate Franchise. For example, Carter was once in a situation where she or her mind was transferred into a computer and then back into her body. Would you consider her to be a copy too?

[cynatnite]

As far as I'm concerned she was not the original Elizabeth. The reason why is because the real Elizabeth would not have lied to them, especially to Shepard, in the first place. I don't think John believed she was either. He would not have left her adrift in space. In his mind, Elizabeth is dead.

This was a replicator through and through who was imitating Elizabeth no matter its motives.

The discussion of soul, spirit and mind is an interesting one that could go on forever. This replicator's actions compared to the real Elizabeth's actions prior to the nanites should be the final say.

[Mirelinde]

I think this is "real" Weir: as she said she didb't die in Asuras, she has been "transformed" by nanites - but her person stayed the same! This person has been "ascened" then - nothing changes... and notice: she des't identific herself with Asurans! Just because of it she lies - she didn't want to talk "from them", so well she lies not because she changed - but because she stayed he same, maybe - stayed "inter-galactic rasist" hating Asurans even after all they've made for her.
I've lost all recpect for her after that savage reprisal with Koracen and betrayal of other 8 Asurans...
Really, inspace they don't die immediately - they have some minuits or even hours, maybe their subcap conecion function yet - so well anybody of them could ask her: "We loved you, we trusted you, we took care of you - why've you make it?" What'would she answer? It's interesting...

[Flyboy]

Basically - the RepliWeir arc was dire.