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GateWorld
April 18th, 2011, 07:32 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s6/lets-kill-hitler/" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/letskillhitler1-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SERIES 32</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s6/lets-kill-hitler/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">LET'S KILL HITLER</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3208 (608)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">The TARDIS is hijacked by one of Amy and Rory’s childhood friends, who takes them to Berlin on the eve of World War II. An old friend returns, and a secret weapon created to kill the Doctor is activated.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s6/lets-kill-hitler/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 11:58 AM
Bloody hell!!
That was an awesome episode!
So much answered, but also, so much unanswered...
I knew Mels would turn into River Song, as soon as she got shot, i just sat there and said "She will turn into River Song"
We have a little bit more information regarding the Silence now...
A religious group... They are obviously being controlled by The Silence...
Great way to restart the series! So much action, but also so much to look forward to!

Sealurk
August 27th, 2011, 11:58 AM
Pretty excellent stuff! I think I'll be watching that one again in about, oh, forty-five minutes...

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 12:01 PM
Pretty excellent stuff! I think I'll be watching that one again in about, oh, forty-five minutes...

Im going to end up rewatching this about 10 times lol
So much to take in...

So... River Song is the little girl who regenerated in Day of The Moon, shes the girl from the spacesuit, she regenerates into Mels, then becomes friends with her parents...
But why would the Silence have her in a spacesuit?

Draygon
August 27th, 2011, 12:04 PM
Well that clears up a few things :P

When River learned to fly the Tardis, and from who
And a reason for the Doctor gaining extra regenerations :D

Dunno, I had suspicions who Mels was as soon as she pulled out the gun. *shrugs* It was kinda familiar. I loved the back and forth between her and the Doctor where they were trying to get the upper hand over the other :P

Rory has also now gained another 12 points of awesome :D Also, I want a sonic cane now! :D

More coherent thoughts when I've come down of my Doctor Who high :D

Alan
August 27th, 2011, 12:07 PM
WOW OH WOW!!! That was awesome!!! Loved it!!!! :D :cool:

Will say more when I'm able to. :o

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 12:10 PM
I had seen pictures of both Mels and River Song in the same clothes, that kinda gave it away, and yeah Draygon, her gun draw was kind of familiar

Rory has come so far from his first episode, Ive always been a fan of Rory, but the last two episodes have made me love him so much more!
Yeah, now the Doctor hopefully has some more regenerations, so the show can live on even longer now :D

A nice amount of questions were answered in this episode, but left enough questions unanswered to keep us on our toes...
Cant wait for next weeks episode!
So glad i wasnt working this Saturday!

Sealurk
August 27th, 2011, 12:13 PM
So we learned that temporal grace was always just rule one in effect, River has definitely inherited the badass gene from Rory, and it's fun to lock Hitler in a cupboard.

Ukko
August 27th, 2011, 12:14 PM
Rory punching Hitler = Epic win. :D

Shut up Hitler. :p

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 12:52 PM
Rory punching Hitler = Epic win. :D

Shut up Hitler. :p

Yeah, that was awesome! And locking Hitler in the closet...
River and the Doctors little furray for weapons was fun...
There were quite a few laughs in this episode
"Doctor not following, Doctor very lost"

Just realised, the Doctor just arranged his own wedding...
When Mels got shot he told her "Stay alive and Ill marry you"
Hes got a promise to keep lol
Also, there was a nice reference to Vampires of Venice
The regeneration also explains Mels fascination with the Doctor...

Quizziard
August 27th, 2011, 12:52 PM
Wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey. My head hurts.

SO many links closed, such as the diary, the archaeology (see below), the first Doctor/River meeting, etc. etc.

But, just so very typically SM, plenty of new questions. Particularly, since I guess it will matter a lot by the end of the season: what's the big question? There's also the slight issue of when he tells her his name.

However - why would someone wanting to contact/meet the Doctor study archaeology?

mjwalshe
August 27th, 2011, 01:03 PM
Wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey. My head hurts.

SO many links closed, such as the diary, the archaeology (see below), the first Doctor/River meeting, etc. etc.

But, just so very typically SM, plenty of new questions. Particularly, since I guess it will matter a lot by the end of the season: what's the big question? There's also the slight issue of when he tells her his name.

However - why would someone wanting to contact/meet the Doctor study archaeology?

its how he keeps score

Flyboy
August 27th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey. My head hurts.

SO many links closed, such as the diary, the archaeology (see below), the first Doctor/River meeting, etc. etc.

But, just so very typically SM, plenty of new questions. Particularly, since I guess it will matter a lot by the end of the season: what's the big question? There's also the slight issue of when he tells her his name.

However - why would someone wanting to contact/meet the Doctor study archaeology?

... can you think of a better way to track down a time traveler?

And I think the Doctor may have just told River his name...

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 01:15 PM
I just had another thought regarding Mels/Melody Pond/River Song
If this is the first time we see her as River Song, if we meet her again, what form will she take, or will we not be seeing her again?
Unless the times when the Doctor and her meet arent linear, I think wibbley wobbley timey wimey comes into play here too...

Sealurk
August 27th, 2011, 01:26 PM
Okay, watched it again and got some of my thoughts in order now.

The origin of River's diary is really quite nice.
Rory just gets better and better, seriously racking up the badass credentials while remaining definitively Rory-esque. He's turning into the breakout character of the show. I love how the Doctor still has to ask permission from him to hug Amy!
Finally finding out that the person who taught River to fly the TARDIS while the Doctor was 'busy that day' was the TARDIS...brilliant and wonderful.
The holograms of Rose, Martha and Donna were a nice nod to the previous Doctor, helping to sew the 'new' new series to the 'old' new series.
River's "Well, I was on my way to a gay gypsy bar mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought 'Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill the Fuhrer'" made me laugh.
TeenAmy and TeenRory and the former's realisation about the latter was quite well done.
The Tesselacta shape-shift effect was pretty nifty, and the concept was...well, it was a bit too "Meet Dave" for my tastes, but still quite well done.
Anybody else think Matt Smith sounded a lot like Peter Davison when he's on the floor of the TARDIS arguing with the hologram?
Confirmation that regeneration energy is dangerous.
Matt Smith's acting is pretty damn good most of the time, and this episode is no exception.
Alex Kingston's post-regeneration sequence is priceless.
Has River using all her future regenerations to resurrect the Doctor done more than just saved him from the poison?

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 01:38 PM
Okay, watched it again and got some of my thoughts in order now.

The origin of River's diary is really quite nice.
Rory just gets better and better, seriously racking up the badass credentials while remaining definitively Rory-esque. He's turning into the breakout character of the show. I love how the Doctor still has to ask permission from him to hug Amy!
Finally finding out that the person who taught River to fly the TARDIS while the Doctor was 'busy that day' was the TARDIS...brilliant and wonderful.
The holograms of Rose, Martha and Donna were a nice nod to the previous Doctor, helping to sew the 'new' new series to the 'old' new series.
River's "Well, I was on my way to a gay gypsy bar mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought 'Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill the Fuhrer'" made me laugh.
TeenAmy and TeenRory and the former's realisation about the latter was quite well done.
The Tesselacta shape-shift effect was pretty nifty, and the concept was...well, it was a bit too "Meet Dave" for my tastes, but still quite well done.
Anybody else think Matt Smith sounded a lot like Peter Davison when he's on the floor of the TARDIS arguing with the hologram?
Confirmation that regeneration energy is dangerous.
Matt Smith's acting is pretty damn good most of the time, and this episode is no exception.
Alex Kingston's post-regeneration sequence is priceless.
Has River using all her future regenerations to resurrect the Doctor done more than just saved him from the poison?

Those are all good points, and I agree with most of those, it was nice to see the old companions again, and that he was still abit guilty for screwing their lives up.
River Song using the regeneration energy as a weapon was a nice touch, thought she was going to do something like that when she was shot.
I definately agree about Rory, he is such a great character, hes one of my favourite characters right now.
How come the tesselacta associated River Song with the Tardis?
Definately need to rewatch this.

Billz
August 27th, 2011, 02:29 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. So if Melody/Mels/River killed the Doctor when she was a little girl before her first regeneration into Mels (Day Of The Moon), then why would she travel forward in time to Leadworth as a kid, base herself there as Mels, and wait for the Doctor to show up again? To her, she had already accomplished her mission from Kovarian. So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time? I don't deny it was a cracking episode, but it seemed to get very "wash, rinse, and repeat" in this one. Hitler got left in the cuboard, lol!

Also, I've just realised that Melody/Mels/River giving the Doctor her remaining regenerations just solved the issue of "13 lives for a Time Lord". When that happened, the Doctor recieved 11 more lives, assuming that Melody/Mels/River got the full compliment of 13 lives when she was conceived within the TARDIS.

In either case, the Doctor is going to live for another 11 life cycles. Can't wait to see what the 24th Doctor (the Doctor's first set of 13 lives, + the 11 new lives that he recevied from Melody/Mels/River) will look like by the time that 2060 comes around, LMFAO! :D

BruTak
August 27th, 2011, 02:37 PM
We need more of The Adventues of Amelia and Rory When They Were Kids. Now. Before Caitlin Blackwood grows up too much.:)

As for the Tesselecta (or however you spell it), given Mr. Muff's age and Scottish roots, it's probably more of a nod to "The Numbskulls" in The Beezer comic rather than Eddie Murphy's "Meet Dave".

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 02:57 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. So if Melody/Mels/River killed the Doctor when she was a little girl before her first regeneration into Mels (Day Of The Moon), then why would she travel forward in time to Leadworth as a kid, base herself there as Mels, and wait for the Doctor to show up again? To her, she had already accomplished her mission from Kovarian. So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?

Maybe its not River in the suit that kills the Doctor?

Billz
August 27th, 2011, 03:09 PM
Maybe its not River in the suit that kills the Doctor?

Melody was in the suit. Melody is River. Melody in the suit killed the 1103 year old Doctor. After that at some point, Melody was taken to 1969 by possibly the Silence in their make shift TARDIS. Melody breaks out. Melody regenerates into Mels. Mels gets sent to Leadworth to grow up at the same rate as "Kid Amy" and "Kid Rory". Mels meets up with them and the Doctor. Mels regenerates into River Song. And you're still trying to deny it? :/

Alan
August 27th, 2011, 03:20 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. So if Melody/Mels/River killed the Doctor when she was a little girl before her first regeneration into Mels (Day Of The Moon), then why would she travel forward in time to Leadworth as a kid, base herself there as Mels, and wait for the Doctor to show up again? To her, she had already accomplished her mission from Kovarian. So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?

She hasn't accomplished her mission for a second time. The scene where Melody regenerated in the New York alleyway took place in 1969. She spent 30-years on Earth until she was able to meet and befriend her future parents Amy and Rory in the 1990's as "Mels" and she even engineers their relationship and therefore ensures her conception. Then she meets the Doctor in the cornfield in Leadworth. They go to 1930's Berlin and regenerates in to the face that we know as River Song and REALLY meets the Doctor for the first time. Her brainwashing is ended and she becomes an Archaeologist in the 52nd century. She meets the Doctor at various points in his time line until she is called to Utah in 2011 and witnesses the Doctor's death at the hands of SOMEONE.


Also, I've just realised that Melody/Mels/River giving the Doctor her remaining regenerations just solved the issue of "13 lives for a Time Lord". When that happened, the Doctor recieved 11 more lives, assuming that Melody/Mels/River got the full compliment of 13 lives when she was conceived within the TARDIS.

In either case, the Doctor is going to live for another 11 life cycles. Can't wait to see what the 24th Doctor (the Doctor's first set of 13 lives, + the 11 new lives that he recevied from Melody/Mels/River) will look like by the time that 2060 comes around, LMFAO! :D

Well in The Sarah Jane Adventures the Doctor says he can regenerate 507 times. Whether he was being serious or not is another thing but if he was and River's given him her 11 remaining regenerations then the Doctor's got himself 519 lives to live now! :D

Billz
August 27th, 2011, 03:36 PM
She hasn't accomplished her mission for a second time.

I said "So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?". I never said that she did accomplish her mission for a second time. I merely said tried. There's a difference. ;)


...she is called to Utah in 2011 and witnesses the Doctor's death at the hands of SOMEONE.

That SOMEONE being Melody, who we know broke out of the spacesuit and regenerated in New York in the 60's. Haven't you been paying FULL attention? ;)

PS: It was nice seeing Martha and Donna again, even though they were only voice interface holograms. The Rose hologram I could have done without though. ;)
I wonder why Idris didn't appear as a possible voice interface hologram? Would've been great to see Idris/Sexy again! :D

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 03:38 PM
That SOMEONE being Melody, who we know broke out of the spacesuit and regenerated in New York in the 60's. Haven't you been paying FULL attention? ;)

As i said in my pm to you, I really dont believe it is her...
But Ill happily put my hands up and accept it if it turns out to be her...

Billz
August 27th, 2011, 03:46 PM
As i said in my pm to you, I really dont believe it is her...
But Ill happily put my hands up and accept it if it turns out to be her...

I'm looking forward to seeing that. ;)

Carter1994
August 27th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Holy Cow.

That was... wow. :D

Figured out Mels was River as soon as she came out of the cell. Mels's swagger was EXACTLY like River's. River's regeneration scene was great as well (and the banana! :D); evil!River was kinda intriguing.

knowles2
August 27th, 2011, 04:42 PM
Melody regenerates into Mels. Mels gets sent to Leadworth to grow up at the same rate as "Kid Amy" and "Kid Rory". Mels meets up with them and the Doctor.

I do not think she was sent to Leadworth, I think she made the decision to move there by herself. In fact I think every decision she has made since she escape that Space suit has been her own decision. I hope we do get some stories about Mel past, and what she, Rory, and Pond got up to in there youth together.

I think it all but confirm, River Song kills the doctor as a child. She hinted at it when she attempted to shoot the doctor attacker. An now those time agents pretty much confirm it. Also there solid links between the person escaping the spacesuit, the regeneration in New York, and Mel. Right now it would be illogical for the person to be anyone but Melody.

Now whether that the real doctor, Flesh doctor, whether he has a plan to revive himself master style is now the big question we need to answer.
So we know the silence have evolve into some type of religious cult who is seeking out answers to a question, they probably came up with the cult idea to protect themselves from the events that took place in 1969. Wonder what the question is. An why they tried to destroy the universe.

One question I got, was the Doctor the one that started the war, with those word the British are coming. Germany would never withstood a full scale assault from France an Great Britain combine. Could the doctor warning, him seeing what he thought was a British flying phone able to penetrate into the heart of Germany with out any opposition have made him launch his war in 1939.


Apart from the above the most interesting bit of the episode was the time agents, I hope we learn more about them in the future. I wonder if they were the ones holding Song prisoner or is it someone else.
I like there android. Through I wish we got to see the space ship they beam up to.

Teddybrown
August 27th, 2011, 04:52 PM
I do not think she was sent to Leadworth, I think she made the decision to move there by herself. In fact I think every decision she has made since she escape that Space suit has been her own decision. I hope we do get some stories about Mel past, and what she, Rory, and Pond got up to in there youth together.

I think it all but confirm, River Song kills the doctor as a child. She hinted at it when she attempted to shoot the doctor attacker. An now those time agents pretty much confirm it. Also there solid links between the person escaping the spacesuit, the regeneration in New York, and Mel. Right now it would be illogical for the person to be anyone but Melody.

Now whether that the real doctor, Flesh doctor, whether he has a plan to revive himself master style is now the big question we need to answer.
So we know the silence have evolve into some type of religious cult who is seeking out answers to a question, they probably came up with the cult idea to protect themselves from the events that took place in 1969. Wonder what the question is. An why they tried to destroy the universe.

One question I got, was the Doctor the one that started the war, with those word the British are coming. Germany would never withstood a full scale assault from France an Great Britain combine. Could the doctor warning, him seeing what he thought was a British flying phone able to penetrate into the heart of Germany with out any opposition have made him launch his war in 1939.
Apart from the above the most interesting bit of the episode was the time agents, I hope we learn more about them in the future. I wonder if they were the ones holding Song prisoner or is it someone else.
I like there android. Through I wish we got to see the space ship they beam up to.

In real life, no, but in the Whoverse, anythings possible!

Looks like they are doing the secret messages in the Fourth Dimension again...
Heres what was found
“When Reason Slept

When Mothers Wept

When soldiers Crept

The Monsters came”

As for the Doctors death, I will stand my ground till proven wrong =P lol

Also might aswell post these here too
Trailer for episode 9 Night Terrors
BBC link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00k2lp0
Youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbhGsj9ftVM

Carter1994
August 27th, 2011, 05:29 PM
Did anyone else notice the music that played as Rory punched Hitler? :D

thecolouryes
August 27th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Umm.... this is going to be a very long reply stuffed with quoting people!


Dunno, I had suspicions who Mels was as soon as she pulled out the gun. *shrugs* It was kinda familiar. I loved the back and forth between her and the Doctor where they were trying to get the upper hand over the other :P

Agreed; Mels sorta bantered with the Doctor like River does. And was the same kind of pushy.

[QUOTE=Sealurk;12868676]So we learned that temporal grace was always just rule one in effect, River has definitely inherited the badass gene from Rory, and it's fun to lock Hitler in a cupboard.

And leave him there! I can just imagine the mystified/horrified faces of the people that find him cowering in a cupboard... :P


Yeah, that was awesome! And locking Hitler in the closet...
River and the Doctors little furray for weapons was fun...
There were quite a few laughs in this episode
"Doctor not following, Doctor very lost"

Tons of laughs, yes! I loved them all, I laughed a ton in between all of my "WTF?!" moments. (Good thing the house was empty when I was yelling that at the screen, lol!



... can you think of a better way to track down a time traveler?

And I think the Doctor may have just told River his name...
Didn't the Doctor (or maybe it was river?) explain that they "keep score" by putting grafitti on historical objects? And what better way to discover historical objects than to become an archaeologist?

Also, it's clear that he told her his name. "There's only one way I could have told you that" -- from Silence in the Library or whatever episode where we met River. Speaking of which, there's that "Silence" again... Oh Mr Moffat, how long have you been planning this series plot??



Rory just gets better and better, seriously racking up the badass credentials while remaining definitively Rory-esque. He's turning into the breakout character of the show. I love how the Doctor still has to ask permission from him to hug Amy!
Finally finding out that the person who taught River to fly the TARDIS while the Doctor was 'busy that day' was the TARDIS...brilliant and wonderful.
The holograms of Rose, Martha and Donna were a nice nod to the previous Doctor, helping to sew the 'new' new series to the 'old' new series.
River's "Well, I was on my way to a gay gypsy bar mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought 'Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill the Fuhrer'" made me laugh.
Alex Kingston's post-regeneration sequence is priceless.
Has River using all her future regenerations to resurrect the Doctor done more than just saved him from the poison?
In order:
This episode made me actually like Rory for the first time in a while.
I did like finding out how River learned to fly the TARDIS, although her line about "I'm a child of the TARDIS" (or close) certainly opened up a whole host of new questions, although in a roundabout way answered some.
Holograms were indeed a nice touch, also his asking for someone who didn't make him feel guilty showed that he does remember those guys.
River/Alex Kingston was just absolutely brilliant in this episode, lines and acting and all :D
I think this gives TPTB an excuse to give the Doctor a few more regenerations, at the least.


Well in The Sarah Jane Adventures the Doctor says he can regenerate 507 times. Whether he was being serious or not is another thing but if he was and River's given him her 11 remaining regenerations then the Doctor's got himself 519 lives to live now! :D

I would not be mad about that! :D


Figured out Mels was River as soon as she came out of the cell. Mels's swagger was EXACTLY like River's. River's regeneration scene was great as well (and the banana! :D); evil!River was kinda intriguing.

The banana! The banana was brilliant! And a nod to my FAVOURITE story ark, also by our wonderful Mr Moffat, "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" ("There's really a banana grove at [name of weapons factory where Jack gets his gun] and you really just did that?")


Looks like they are doing the secret messages in the Fourth Dimension again...
Heres what was found
“When Reason Slept

When Mothers Wept

When soldiers Crept

The Monsters came”
Secret messages in the 4th Dimension? What's this about?

Alan
August 27th, 2011, 06:21 PM
I said "So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?". I never said that she did accomplish her mission. I merely said tried. There's a difference. ;)

I know you did. And I said she HASN'T accomplished her mission for a second time.


That SOMEONE being Melody, who we know broke out of the spacesuit and regenerated in New York in the 60's. Haven't you been paying FULL attention? ;)

52nd Century: Melody Pond is born to Amy Pond and Rory Williams. She is captured, brainwashed in to killing the Doctor.

1960's: Melody is inserted in to a NASA spacesuit.

1968: Melody breaks out of the spacesuit and regenerates in New York alleyway becoming "Mels".

1990's: "Mels" meets and befriends Amy and Rory.

2000's: "Mels" engineers Amy and Rory's relationship ensuring her future conception.

2011: August: "Mels" meets the Doctor in a cornfield in Leadworth. They travel back in time to 1938 where she is injured and regenerates in to the body and face the Doctor associates with River Song. THE DOCTOR AND RIVER'S FIRST REAL MEETING. River kills the Doctor but then after being convinced of his goodness she fights her brainwashing and sacrifices her remaining regenerations to bring the Doctor back to life. River is left in the 52nd century to live her life.

52nd Century: River becomes an archaeologist.

TIME UNKNOWN: River kills someone and is imprisoned for it.

52nd Century: River breaks out of her Stormcage prison and goes to Utah in April 2011.

April 2011: River witnesses the Doctor's death at the hands of someone wearing a NASA space suit. Along with Amy and Rory they meet a younger Doctor and they travel back in time to 1968.

1968: River helps the Doctor and his friends defeat the Silence. The Doctor returns River to her cell in the 52nd century.

Followed by:

A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR

THE PANDORICA OPENS

THE TIME OF ANGELS

SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY

So now let me ask you something...River was already locked up for the murder of someone when she was called to Utah 2011, right? If it was a younger version of herself in the spacesuit (aka Melody) that killed the Doctor as you suggest, wouldn't River on the beach have recognised the circumstances for which she was locked away for and also not bothered attempting to shoot at her past self as she retreated in to the lake knowing full well that she is destined to be arrested for the Doctor's murder in the future and locked up in a Stormcage?

BUT unless at some point after going to attend Luna University River loses her memories, reverts back to her brainwashing and kills the Doctor in Utah in 2011 and then goes back to being her normal self I don't see how it can be her.

And from my perspective: TOO obvious. The Doctor dies. River locked up for murder. It's too much A leads to B leads to C. If it were River in that spacesuit they wouldn't have gone to such trouble to hide her identity.

If, however, it does turn out to be River then I'll hold my hands up and accept it.

Nolamom
August 27th, 2011, 07:00 PM
Good episode. Great regeneration. Loved the banana.

Alan
August 27th, 2011, 07:05 PM
Good episode. Great regeneration. Loved the banana.

Yep. Can't argue with that. The scene with the banana took me back to 2005 when the Doctor used his skills of sleight of hand and replaced Captain Jack's Sonic Blaster for a banana.

Dixie_Vampiress
August 27th, 2011, 07:12 PM
Very interesting. So far I've been a bit bored with this story arc, but this was pretty cool. I gonna need a little while to try and figure out the whole timeline thing... So far it makes no sense.

Also, just thought I would add, LOVED The Doctor's coat at the start! He should so wear that more often.

Skydiver
August 27th, 2011, 07:24 PM
anyone know, the 'immune system' of the robot...sounded like James Earl Jones......was it him or a soundalike?

this was just an enjoyable episode, just when I thought they were setting aside some arc stuff for regular episodes, they do this. But it's fine.

what i wonder about the 'silence'.....silence comes from nothing. what if the silence is the end....death of everything. (Unless it ties back to 'silence in the library'

Quizziard
August 27th, 2011, 08:32 PM
Melody was in the suit. Melody is River. Melody in the suit killed the 1103 year old Doctor.
Yes. Yes. Unproven... :)

As stated above, why would she do it as a "girl" then wait doing nothing for 15 years before doing it again?
My twist: it's the younger Canton who does it!

Quizziard
August 27th, 2011, 08:40 PM
Also, it's clear that he told her his name.
I don't think that's clear at all. Didn't she reply "She knows"? - i.e. replying to something like "tell River that I love her". It would be an odd reply to being told his name. And "tell her that John Smith loves her" is an awkward way of phrasing it. We've already had (Shakespeare Code) that someone's name is powerful - leading up to the unknown question for The Silence.

On the other hand, he did remarkably well - he knew he had less than half an hour to persuade River to fall for him and thus save his life. A quick change of clothes, a few key revelations and bam. So maybe he did name himself in that whisper. Just colour-me unconvinced for now... ;)

Quizziard
August 27th, 2011, 08:45 PM
anyone know, the 'immune system' of the robot...sounded like James Earl Jones......was it him or a soundalike?
I'd think it was unlikely for a British show that never, by choice/budget, strays more than a taxi-ride from Cardiff. I was actually thinking during the show that it sounded like the normal dalek-voice-guy, Nicholas Briggs.

kcatlantis
August 27th, 2011, 10:30 PM
Am I really the only one who doesn't find this episode confusing? The answers are obvious. The only two I don't really have an answer for are how he reworks his death, and the question. I do have working theories for them thought?

Admiral Mappalazarou
August 27th, 2011, 11:52 PM
So, do we think the Silence (species from the beginning of Series 6) are the same Silence as mentioned in this episode? A religious cult?

BruTak
August 28th, 2011, 12:00 AM
I'd think it was unlikely for a British show that never, by choice/budget, strays more than a taxi-ride from Cardiff. I was actually thinking during the show that it sounded like the normal dalek-voice-guy, Nicholas Briggs.Yeah, as far as I'm aware, James Earl Jones is pretty much retired from appearing in movies and TV shows, preferring to concentrate on theatre work.

Flyboy
August 28th, 2011, 02:36 AM
I don't think that's clear at all. Didn't she reply "She knows"? - i.e. replying to something like "tell River that I love her". It would be an odd reply to being told his name. And "tell her that John Smith loves her" is an awkward way of phrasing it. We've already had (Shakespeare Code) that someone's name is powerful - leading up to the unknown question for The Silence.


Would it? Really?

She's evidentally impotant in his life, after all 'Mels' thinks hes calling out to her for help. So if he whispers to her 'tell her my name is.... XXXXX', of course she'll look at him funny and say 'I'm sure she knows'. It was a patronising, condescending comment, not, 'I'm sure she knows you love her', which would have been more likely said in a soft way to put his mind at ease.

SaberBlade
August 28th, 2011, 02:56 AM
River's regeneration history doesn't make any sense.

She's the girl in 1969
Suspected of somehow killing the Doctor in 2011 (but I doubt it's her in the suit that kills him, possibly a future pre-Library River if he's the "good man" she goes to Prison for killing, but I think the suit is Amy and the person killed is Rory).
Regenerates into "a toddler in the middle of New York" (which would have been 1970) Is able to amazing slow down her age because somehow finds her way to Leadworth in 1997 where as a girl of about 8 she beings to age normally with Amy and Rory.

There is either two people in the suit, or someone is helping Melody travel through time so I think there has to be a regeneration between the 1970 regeneration and 1997 that ultimately results her being taken to Leadworth and being able to fit in with Amy and Rory.

As for giving up her regenerations to save the Doctor, I saw her giving up regeneration energy to save him but I didn't expect her to give up all regenerations. Bit of a cheat really because we know she'll never use them (so seemed pointless) but an easy way to extend the Doctor's regenerations, which makes me wonder if the entire story of Amy, Rory and River was ultimately about keeping the show on the air as the Doctor should have one regeneration left. After this, I've given up all expectations they'll ever find Melody as a baby.

mjwalshe
August 28th, 2011, 03:17 AM
Holy Cow.

That was... wow. :D

Figured out Mels was River as soon as she came out of the cell. Mels's swagger was EXACTLY like River's. River's regeneration scene was great as well (and the banana! :D); evil!River was kinda intriguing.

Yes Nina Toussaint-White did mange to match Rivers swagger and persona very well.

stargatefan234
August 28th, 2011, 03:25 AM
anyone know, the 'immune system' of the robot...sounded like James Earl Jones......was it him or a soundalike?

this was just an enjoyable episode, just when I thought they were setting aside some arc stuff for regular episodes, they do this. But it's fine.

what i wonder about the 'silence'.....silence comes from nothing. what if the silence is the end....death of everything. (Unless it ties back to 'silence in the library'

I thought it sounded like Tom Baker :p

It was a great episode imo, but a tad predictable. i guessed Mel was River and guessed she'd "give" the doctor her remaining regenerations.

although did they say she gave them to him? i thought she said she "used up her remaining regenerations to heal him"?

Teddybrown
August 28th, 2011, 04:49 AM
River's regeneration history doesn't make any sense.

She's the girl in 1969
Suspected of somehow killing the Doctor in 2011 (but I doubt it's her in the suit that kills him, possibly a future pre-Library River if he's the "good man" she goes to Prison for killing, but I think the suit is Amy and the person killed is Rory).
Regenerates into "a toddler in the middle of New York" (which would have been 1970) Is able to amazing slow down her age because somehow finds her way to Leadworth in 1997 where as a girl of about 8 she beings to age normally with Amy and Rory.

There is either two people in the suit, or someone is helping Melody travel through time so I think there has to be a regeneration between the 1970 regeneration and 1997 that ultimately results her being taken to Leadworth and being able to fit in with Amy and Rory.

As for giving up her regenerations to save the Doctor, I saw her giving up regeneration energy to save him but I didn't expect her to give up all regenerations. Bit of a cheat really because we know she'll never use them (so seemed pointless) but an easy way to extend the Doctor's regenerations, which makes me wonder if the entire story of Amy, Rory and River was ultimately about keeping the show on the air as the Doctor should have one regeneration left. After this, I've given up all expectations they'll ever find Melody as a baby.

I also dont think her timeline has been completely shown, because if we are following in the timeline of each time the Doctor meets River/Mels, River is younger, next time we see River, it should be Mels...
And we know the Doctor has never met Mels before this point as she would have recognised him in the cornfield...

I also agree with Alan regarding the spacesuit being River that kills the Doctor. If it is her killing the Doctor, shouldnt she remember this while watching and so she would know what happened next to herself. Why would she attempt to shoot at herself? She also seemed genuinely shocked when it happened, like she wasnt expecting it, either she was acting because she knew, or she genuinely didnt know that was going to happen...

Also, shouldnt River remember it was her in the spacesuit, or recognise it? If Alans timeline is correct, the Silence come after her being inserted into the spacesuit so shouldnt she remember or atleast recognise it? Or does she remember and she doesnt want to reveal 'Spoliers' to the Doctor.
Corr, this timeline stuff is confusing!
Sorry if that makes no sense...

knowles2
August 28th, 2011, 05:08 AM
In real life, no, but in the Whoverse, anythings possible!

Looks like they are doing the secret messages in the Fourth Dimension again...
Heres what was found
[QUOTE]“When Reason Slept
Not sure what this one means. But the has not been reasonable for a long time with his enemies.

When Mothers Wept

When Amy cried in the episode before last when her daughter was taken.


When soldiers Crept
The solders under the doctor command crept into that asteroid base.


The Monsters came”


That sound like the next episode. Which was looking like a self contained story, but may be it is not self contained after all and is part of the bigger story.




As for the Doctors death, I will stand my ground till proven wrong =P lol
Good for you.

SaberBlade
August 28th, 2011, 05:21 AM
I also dont think her timeline has been completely shown, because if we are following in the timeline of each time the Doctor meets River/Mels, River is younger, next time we see River, it should be Mels...
And we know the Doctor has never met Mels before this point as she would have recognised him in the cornfield...

She did say it was the first time they had met, so would have been rude to kill him then. We also know that Amy created small Doctor dolls so I don't think she'd have any trouble recognising him especially when he's the only person there (other than her parents) standing in front of a blue police box.
--
Anyone got any ideas on the fish custard or tuxedo? The TARDIS voice interactive program pointed this out, as I thought it would have been a cure but he still died, so I'm wondering when that will be explained because bit strange that with 32 minutes left to live, he'd rush off to do something.

knowles2
August 28th, 2011, 05:29 AM
Also, shouldnt River remember it was her in the spacesuit, or recognise it?

She did connect a few of the dots after she fire her gun at it, she said "of cause not" this points to her putting together the events an recognising what is happening. So river from that point onwards, knows who kills the doctor.

Which given the info at the moment the most sensibly answer is Meloney.

Memory wipes or memory manipulation could also explain why she attempted to do the same thing in the future or it could just be the simplistic programming of her, so even through she kills the doctor once, when she sees him alive she attempts to do the same thing again, and will do so every time she meets him, until the programming is remove.


Anyone got any ideas on the fish custard or tuxedo? The TARDIS voice interactive program pointed this out, as I thought it would have been a cure but he still died, so I'm wondering when that will be explained because bit strange that with 32 minutes left to live, he'd rush off to do something. I thought the same as you, that it would be a cure.

The only idea I can come up with, is that the events of that evening was enough to make Amy fall in love with him and spends her entire life running after him. Perhaps it was the Tardis way of telling the doctor he needed to do something similar with Mel/River Song, so that she feel in love with the doctor there and then and sacrifice her own immortality to bring him back alive.
In a way it was a cure, just not directly. The tux is then the equivalent of the custard and fish fingers.

Love the voice interface mode of the Tardis, I think this season has given us more information and features of the Tardis than any other season I have watch.

stargatefan234
August 28th, 2011, 05:33 AM
I thought the same as you, that it would be a cure.

The only idea I can come up with, is that the events of that evening was enough to make Amy fall in love with him and spends her entire life running after him. Perhaps it was the Tardis way of telling the doctor he needed to do something similar with Mel/River Song, so that she feel in love with the doctor there and then and sacrifice her own immortality to bring him back alive.
In a way it was a cure, just not directly.

Love the voice interface mode of the Tardis, I think this season has given us more information and features of the Tardis than any other season I have watch.

as for the tux, the doctor wanted to go out in style ? :p

Demoniser
August 28th, 2011, 05:47 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing that. ;)

There is no evidence to prove at the moment that

a) The person in the spacesuit coming out of the water is Melody, and isn't in fact someone else

b) The Spacesuit found in that warehouse is the same one that came out of the water.

It's all based on assumptions. There is no proof, sorry :).

But i'm sure we'll find out by the end of the season.

stargatefan234
August 28th, 2011, 05:48 AM
There is no evidence to prove at the moment that

a) The person in the spacesuit coming out of the water is Melody, and isn't in fact someone else

b) The Spacesuit found in that warehouse is the same one that came out of the water.

It's all based on assumptions. There is no proof, sorry :).

But i'm sure we'll find out by the end of the season.

except the tesselecta crew said, melody pond was the person who killed the doctor, and that the doctors death was a fixed point, destined to happen at the lake in utah

knowles2
August 28th, 2011, 05:55 AM
There is no evidence to prove at the moment that

a) The person in the spacesuit coming out of the water is Melody, and isn't in fact someone else

b) The Spacesuit found in that warehouse is the same one that came out of the water.

It's all based on assumptions. There is no proof, sorry :).

But i'm sure we'll find out by the end of the season. There no proof, apart from everything we have been told so far saying Rive Song/meloney is that one that kills the doctor, the people in the robots thought so, the doctor thinks so, it the only explanation that makes any sense, and anything else will just add more story and more details to a story that is already pretty complicated story for what essentially a kid programme. Last night episode simplified that story a little and connected the dots together.
It makes little sense in my mind that the writers would throw in more plot twists on this thread of the story.

Alan
August 28th, 2011, 05:59 AM
There no proof, apart from everything we have been told so far saying Rive Song/meloney is that one that kills the doctor, the people in the robots thought so, the doctor thinks so, it the only explanation that makes any sense, and anything else will just add more story and more details to a story that is already pretty complicated story for what essentially a kid programme. Last night episode simplified that story a little and connected the dots together.
It makes little sense in my mind that the writers would through in more plot twists on this thread of the story.

FAMILY show.

stargatefan234
August 28th, 2011, 06:17 AM
FAMILY show.

its a good point, regardless of its audience its getting mighty complicated

Teddybrown
August 28th, 2011, 07:22 AM
its a good point, regardless of its audience its getting mighty complicated

But thats Moffats style though! Lol

By the way Knowles2, just to point out, its Melody, not Meloney :) Unless your talking about someone else?

As most of you probably know, Im part of the camp who think its not River in the suit killing the Doctor.
Your points are valid on how it could be River, some of the evidence is pointing towards her, but consider this, has history been wrong before? What Im trying to say is, could all the historical records on that days event be wrong? Maybe all the records say it was River Song who did it, but really, it wasnt... Maybe the Tesselectar crews data is wrong?


There is no evidence to prove at the moment that

a) The person in the spacesuit coming out of the water is Melody, and isn't in fact someone else

b) The Spacesuit found in that warehouse is the same one that came out of the water.

It's all based on assumptions. There is no proof, sorry .

But i'm sure we'll find out by the end of the season.

I agree with these points.

P-90_177
August 28th, 2011, 08:38 AM
There no proof, apart from everything we have been told so far saying Rive Song/meloney is that one that kills the doctor, the people in the robots thought so, the doctor thinks so, it the only explanation that makes any sense, and anything else will just add more story and more details to a story that is already pretty complicated story for what essentially a kid programme. Last night episode simplified that story a little and connected the dots together.
It makes little sense in my mind that the writers would throw in more plot twists on this thread of the story.

Even though it isn't actually a kids show, it has been my experience that Kids understand the temporal shinanigans of the Doctor even better than most adults.

Coco Pops
August 28th, 2011, 08:44 AM
So the Silence is also a religious order. Bloody hell there's a lot of those about this series.......

A religious sect who believe that the Universe ends when a question is asked..

Well what if the question really is "what is the Doctor's name"

Why should he be more important then any other Timelord from Galifrey? I find that a bit egotistical to think he and only he could have such power over the whole universe where there were other Timelords who had done far more powerful things like Rassilon and such. And yet we know his name so why is there no drama when you mention the name Rassilon out loud?

Coco Pops
August 28th, 2011, 08:57 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing Jenny come back. I wonder where in space/time she is?

Alan
August 28th, 2011, 09:09 AM
So the Silence is also a religious order. Bloody hell there's a lot of those about this series.......

A religious sect who believe that the Universe ends when a question is asked..

Well what if the question really is "what is the Doctor's name"

Why should he be more important then any other Timelord from Galifrey? I find that a bit egotistical to think he and only he could have such power over the whole universe where there were other Timelords who had done far more powerful things like Rassilon and such. And yet we know his name so why is there no drama when you mention the name Rassilon out loud?

In the Season 25 stories Remembrance of the Daleks and Silver Nemesis, there were hints that the Doctor was far more than just another Time Lord...that he might have had a bigger part to play in Gallifreyan history and also particularly during The Dark Times and The Time of Chaos.

If indeed the question is "Doctor who?" then the answers: the Doctor's secrets, his history and his very name might be terrible enough for him to want to keep as hidden and as buried as possible.

IcarusAbides
August 28th, 2011, 09:18 AM
So the Silence is also a religious order. Bloody hell there's a lot of those about this series.......

A religious sect who believe that the Universe ends when a question is asked..

Well what if the question really is "what is the Doctor's name"

Why should he be more important then any other Timelord from Galifrey? I find that a bit egotistical to think he and only he could have such power over the whole universe where there were other Timelords who had done far more powerful things like Rassilon and such. And yet we know his name so why is there no drama when you mention the name Rassilon out loud?

I don't think that is the question as people have asked it before I'm sure unless it has to be asked at a specific point. Now as for why we know the name of Rassilon and other time lords such as Romana but not The Doctor's name is because The Doctor and others similar to him were rebellious renegade Time Lords who didn't observe the non interference policy of the majority of Time Lords and as a result gave up their names and took on titles such as The Master, The Rani, The Corsair and The Doctor.

By all means that may be the question but I would hope it was something less obvious and as this series so far has shown that is more than possible.

Teddybrown
August 28th, 2011, 09:25 AM
So the Silence is also a religious order. Bloody hell there's a lot of those about this series.......

A religious sect who believe that the Universe ends when a question is asked..

Well what if the question really is "what is the Doctor's name"

Why should he be more important then any other Timelord from Galifrey? I find that a bit egotistical to think he and only he could have such power over the whole universe where there were other Timelords who had done far more powerful things like Rassilon and such. And yet we know his name so why is there no drama when you mention the name Rassilon out loud?

Yeah, Im more curious about The Silence now.
I reckon that The Silence is controlling Kovarian and her army through post hypnotic suggestion, because they are kind of like a religious group, what with the popeal mainframe, and did the soldiers in the Angels episode have the same symbols on their gear?
Im curious about this question too, I understand what you mean by the Doctors name. We know other Time Lords names but nothing has happened. Could be why he always refers to himself as just the Doctor...
Who knows?

mi_guard
August 28th, 2011, 09:26 AM
Question: what does the Doctor say nearly at the end when River is in the hospital bed? something like "First rule: the Doctor lies"? :confused:

stargatefan234
August 28th, 2011, 09:28 AM
Question: what does the Doctor say nearly at the end when River is in the hospital bed? something like "First rule: the Doctor lies"? :confused:

his exact words may be "Rule 1: the doctor lies" but essentially yes

Teddybrown
August 28th, 2011, 09:29 AM
Question: what does the Doctor say nearly at the end when River is in the hospital bed? something like "First rule: the Doctor lies"? :confused:

He says "Rule one, The Doctor lies"
Maybe hes lieing about his past too?
Wonder what he means when he says that...

Argh, beaten to it! Darn you Stargatefan234 :P

thecolouryes
August 28th, 2011, 09:35 AM
Anyone got any ideas on the fish custard or tuxedo? The TARDIS voice interactive program pointed this out, as I thought it would have been a cure but he still died, so I'm wondering when that will be explained because bit strange that with 32 minutes left to live, he'd rush off to do something.

Not sure about the fish custard, but looking at your quote made me wonder... Maybe he went off to get married to future-River? I mean it would be a good excuse as any for the tux...


In the Season 25 stories Remembrance of the Daleks and Silver Nemesis, there were hints that the Doctor was far more than just another Time Lord...that he might have had a bigger part to play in Gallifreyan history and also particularly during The Dark Times and The Time of Chaos.

If indeed the question is "Doctor who?" then the answers: the Doctor's secrets, his history and his very name might be terrible enough for him to want to keep as hidden and as buried as possible.

So something other than the role he played in the Time War? (I haven't seen much of Classic Who, so sorry if that's coming out as an obvious answer. Mostly a good bit of Tom Baker's seasons.)

"Doctor who?" would give the title of the show an irony I'm sure Moffat wouldn't want to pass up on ;) Also, the Doctor DID ask it when he came out of the TARDIS when crazy!River was about to kill him... I'm sure that's not a coincidence. Or, it would be an awfully large one.

Quizziard
August 28th, 2011, 01:15 PM
If The Silence is an order not a species, Kovarian could simply be a member of the order?

Would the Master know the Doctor's real name?

A name is important (c.f. "The Shakespeare Code"). The Doctor has gone to continual and expressive lengths to ensure he doesn't use his real name. Even to the extent of noting the importance of Rover knowing it.

But, since River knows it, the woman who "killed" the Doctor (and then ensured he got better :D ), doesn't that mean the most obvious "oldest question" HAS already been answered?

IcarusAbides
August 28th, 2011, 01:16 PM
Yeah, Im more curious about The Silence now.
I reckon that The Silence is controlling Kovarian and her army through post hypnotic suggestion, because they are kind of like a religious group, what with the popeal mainframe, and did the soldiers in the Angels episode have the same symbols on their gear?
Im curious about this question too, I understand what you mean by the Doctors name. We know other Time Lords names but nothing has happened. Could be why he always refers to himself as just the Doctor...
Who knows?

Not all of them we don't, the outcasts/rebels such as The Doctor, The Master and The Rani's names are unknown as they gave them up and took on those titles when they rebelled. It's possible The Doctor's name is something powerful but he is not the only Time Lord whose name we do not know.

SGalisa
August 28th, 2011, 04:00 PM
Still waiting to see the eppy (BBCA is a week later?). *sigh*


Okay, watched it again and got some of my thoughts in order now.

Finally finding out that the person who taught River to fly the TARDIS while the Doctor was 'busy that day' was the TARDIS...brilliant and wonderful.
...

thank you! THANK YOU!! This confirms my suspicions from months and months ago. The only other entity besides the Doctor even nearly considered *the best* would be the TARDIS, from my understanding. ;)

The reason why the Doctor never said anything prior, was probably because he was dumbfounded as to not living out that part of his future yet, thus he couldn't have known. And River does like her mysteries to stay unspoiled for the most part... :p

Skydiver
August 28th, 2011, 05:33 PM
ok, the robot justice folks....they said that the doctor was a war criminal and that he stole a tardis.....but I thought his backstory was that he was a 'lone' survivor of a great war between timelords and the daleks....did they change that in canon? or could that be a result of someone mucking with the timeline.

Skydiver
August 28th, 2011, 05:33 PM
bbbc america is NOT a week behind. It's hours behind. Let's kill Hitler aired last night

Nth Chevron
August 28th, 2011, 05:44 PM
ok, the robot justice folks....they said that the doctor was a war criminal and that he stole a tardis.....but I thought his backstory was that he was a 'lone' survivor of a great war between timelords and the daleks....did they change that in canon? or could that be a result of someone mucking with the timeline.

Actually, when it showed that piece of info on the screen inside Robo-Pond, it showed a picture of the TARDIS, not the Doctor and Not River/Melody.

That jumped out at me, i believe it showed the TARDIS and underneath was written STOLEN.

Do they consider the TARDIS as some sort of war criminal for something we have yet to see or do they hold the TARDIS responsible for something to do with Melodies part timelord birth circumstance?

Also, the Time-War is a myth among the higher species, it went completely unnoticed to the lesser races.

So they wouldnt have known of the Time-War and the Doctors past per se, just what Kovarian and the alliance called what they planned to put inside the Pandorica.

"An ageless and timeless thing" "One day it would appear and tear your world down"

etc etc

N.C

Draygon
August 28th, 2011, 05:45 PM
ok, the robot justice folks....they said that the doctor was a war criminal and that he stole a tardis.....but I thought his backstory was that he was a 'lone' survivor of a great war between timelords and the daleks....did they change that in canon? or could that be a result of someone mucking with the timeline.
Actually, he is both. He started his adventures by stealing a Tardis (or being stolen by a Tardis according to her :P Either way, she referred to him as her thief) and our eye patch lady point out that the Doctor is a war criminal and they are in fact in war against him, hence the use of Melody against him.

But he is also the last survivor of the Time War.

So both are canon. This series though seems to be focusing more on the former's crimes than the latter's martyrdom.

darkgunsl
August 28th, 2011, 05:55 PM
That was an interesting episode.

I really liked each part and scene individually. However, as an episode, it almost felt like alot was cut and overall rushed.

Thoughts, predictions, etc.

1) Rivers and the Doctors, definitely not opposing linear. Timey whiney wibbly wobbley.

2) iirc, River did not go into archeology until after she earned her pardon (It was during the two part weeping angels episodes where I believe the Doctor addressed her as "Doctor Song" and she went "Oh? So I'm a Doctor? Spoilers!') and since this is the very first time they meet, and she pops up later on in the season (if not in the next season) then they meet again post hospital.

3) I read on another forum that what some thought he whispered to Melody, to tell "River" was "I just got back from marrying you". Which would explain so much, from her initial response "I'm sure she knows", the tuxedo, earlier conversations at Amy's and Rory's wedding, and the sudden change of mind for her to save him when she realizes she *is* River and asking if he is worth it.

4) I will say though, that would be the fastest wedding ever. Anyone actually time the screen time from the start of little Amelia saying 32 minutes left to live to the change of scenes, and then how long before he was saved after his tux appearance? Quick to get changed and married in about minutes maybe?

5) I love the fact of the flirting looks they give each other when trying to one-up another.

6) Rory had all the best lines in this episode. ignoring the much loved lines spoken to hitler, alot of his dialogue stood out to me rather than the rest of the cast.

Skydiver
August 28th, 2011, 06:08 PM
what if the fish fingers and custard DID cure the doctor....but when he showed back up in the tux he'd been poisoned again?

Draygon
August 28th, 2011, 06:13 PM
what if the fish fingers and custard DID cure the doctor....but when he showed back up in the tux he'd been poisoned again?
I think the fish fingers and custard thing was more of something to rally him. A memory back before he went wrong as he feels with Amelia. Amy used it as the thing to prove that he could trust them back at the beginning of the series when they met him after his death.
So to me its not so much the meal of fish fingers and custard itself that brought the Doctor back, but more the memory that went with it that kept him fighting on.

SGalisa
August 28th, 2011, 06:17 PM
Still waiting to see the eppy (BBCA is a week later?). *sigh*


bbbc america is NOT a week behind. It's hours behind. Let's kill Hitler aired last night

Not here. When I checked the BBCA "full" schedule (not the actual TV channel), it was showing reruns of previous eps. That was all day yesterday into midnight.

So, since we were having a hurricane, and I was sick from migraines and nausea (bad ginger ale did the final deed), I never turned the Tv on, and just went straight to my pillow. Never bothered recording (DVR) because I didn't know what time to record.

Anywho.. just found out from the BBCA, the following info----

Doctor Who Encores

Tuesday, August 30th at 12am EST
(Monday Night)

If Hurricane Irene keeps you from watching the midseason premiere of Doctor Who, "Let's Kill Hitler" and the "Doctor Who: Best of the Companions" special will re-air Tuesday.

(that's Monday pm night at midnight into Tuesday am)

nah, I don't think I'll stay up that late, but will see if we can DVR it to watch later in the week (next Sunday, instead, maybe). ;)

Coco Pops
August 28th, 2011, 07:53 PM
The Doctor being a war criminal ... Never.....

The Silence, Kovarian, and company are just telling porkies.

Although in the old series we are never fully told either why the Doctor ran away from Galifrey and took the TARDIS.... It's something open to debate. I hope they don't ruin things.

Skydiver
August 28th, 2011, 07:56 PM
well, i know on BBCA that I watched sat night, i saw the best of the companions special, and this eps, and there was another dr who special last saturday

MasySyma
August 28th, 2011, 08:01 PM
I'm going to have to give this episode, a great big meh.

I loved parts of it, namely parts with Mels/River. I love when she flirts with 11.
I appreciated the tiny gestures many have noticed, including the diary.

On the other hand, the alien of the week was horrific. They find historical despical people and torture them for who knows how long because it is their right. No one, not even the doctor says much about this? Not ok.

The tux means that the Doctor will probably have to interact with himself at Amy's wedding again, but I'm getting really tired of the Fez, suit jackets, tuxes, and Flesh doctors. Just tell a good story, not a convolutted one.

So the doctor can't save River at this moment but Mels can be by Amy growing up. Ok, but it was presented that this is as good as returning the child to her mother. That is so not ok.

Thankfully, the episode had a few laughs. But on the rewatch, it was even boring. A 7/10 at best.

Quizziard
August 28th, 2011, 09:39 PM
I think the fish fingers and custard thing was more of something to rally him. A memory back before he went wrong as he feels with Amelia. Amy used it as the thing to prove that he could trust them back at the beginning of the series when they met him after his death.
So to me its not so much the meal of fish fingers and custard itself that brought the Doctor back, but more the memory that went with it that kept him fighting on.
That's how I saw it. Something grounded, physical and a key part of the relationship with Amy (c.f. her "trust me" on fish/custard in "Rebel Flesh)

Flyboy
August 28th, 2011, 10:37 PM
The Doctor being a war criminal ... Never.....



What else would you call someone who requires a plural of the word 'Genocide'?

mi_guard
August 29th, 2011, 03:09 AM
I loved these lines:

Adolf Hitler: Thank you. Whoever you are. I think you have just saved my life.
The Doctor: Believe me. It was an accident.

Amy: I don't understand, okay? One minute she's going to marry you and then she's going to kill you.
The Doctor: Well she's been brainwashed. It all makes sense to her. Plus, she's a woman. Oh shut up, I'm dying!

stargatefan234
August 29th, 2011, 04:48 AM
ok, the robot justice folks....they said that the doctor was a war criminal and that he stole a tardis.....but I thought his backstory was that he was a 'lone' survivor of a great war between timelords and the daleks....did they change that in canon? or could that be a result of someone mucking with the timeline.

The justice people didnt say the doctor was a war criminal, they said Melody pond was

?

BruTak
August 29th, 2011, 05:36 AM
My one minor niggle, was that Hitler was using a revolver.

Strictly speaking, he should've had either a Luger or a Walther P-38. Preferably the latter, as the Lugers were rather prone to going off in your face if you so much as sneezed on them. :)

jameshawking
August 29th, 2011, 10:22 AM
a few problems:

1) Wait, so we only get one episode of River being evil? I call BS on that one. Seriously. the ENTIRE river-kills-doctor threat (with alex kingston anyway) was resolved in one episode? That seriously pisses me off.

2) Childhood Amy is more important to the Doctor, and liked more, Than IDRIS/the TARDIS itself? Really Moffat? I know you've got a thing for red-headed strippers, but...c'mon.

3) Why doesn't Rory have a Sonic Cane?

3b) Rory knows how to use the Sonic, as demonstrated in the previous episode. Why is he inept at it now?

4) Humans...never got Time Travel technology. Period. That was the whole point of the "Year that never was" arc. Incongruity annoys me when its like this.

5) If the TARDIS could mind-meld and talk to people, as she did with River....what the hell (censoring myself) is the reason for it not doing so with the Doctor, if for no reason other than to teach him how to park.

6) The question is obviously "what is your name?", just as clearly as river=amy's daughter was.

stargatefan234
August 29th, 2011, 10:27 AM
a few problems:

1) Wait, so we only get one episode of River being evil? I call BS on that one. Seriously. the ENTIRE river-kills-doctor threat (with alex kingston anyway) was resolved in one episode? That seriously pisses me off.

2) Childhood Amy is more important to the Doctor, and liked more, Than IDRIS/the TARDIS itself? Really Moffat? I know you've got a thing for red-headed strippers, but...c'mon.

3) Why doesn't Rory have a Sonic Cane?

3b) Rory knows how to use the Sonic, as demonstrated in the previous episode. Why is he inept at it now?

4) Humans...never got Time Travel technology. Period. That was the whole point of the "Year that never was" arc. Incongruity annoys me when its like this.

2) the doctor asked for someone he hadn't screwed up. being IDRIS would only remind the doctor that she died and that he would never be able to talk to the TARDIS again.

4) was that the point of "The year that never was"? what about the time agency and Jack? what about River? what about the fact time travel can be purchased on the black market in the 52nd century???

Replicator Todd
August 29th, 2011, 10:40 AM
I loved this episode! I can see it becoming one of my favorites! River song is awesome, definitely one of my favorites. My eyes were glued the whole time, Alex Kingston did a excellent job. Mels was quite awesome as well. :D

So good to have The Doctor back! :)

Carter1994
August 29th, 2011, 10:50 AM
1) Wait, so we only get one episode of River being evil? I call BS on that one. Seriously. the ENTIRE river-kills-doctor threat (with alex kingston anyway) was resolved in one episode? That seriously pisses me off.

We may yet have more River-as-Evil, just not with A.K.


3) Why doesn't Rory have a Sonic Cane?
3b) Rory knows how to use the Sonic, as demonstrated in the previous episode. Why is he inept at it now?

Is there a reason he should have a sonic cane? And when is he shown as being inept?


5) If the TARDIS could mind-meld and talk to people, as she did with River....what the hell (censoring myself) is the reason for it not doing so with the Doctor, if for no reason other than to teach him how to park.

River is apparently "The child of the TARDIS", maybe the TARDIS can therefore 'mind-meld' with River in ways the TARDIS can't with the Doctor. Or, maybe the TARDIS can 'meld' with the Doctor, but has never felt the need.


6) The question is obviously "what is your name?", just as clearly as river=amy's daughter was.

This does seem the most obvious solution, yes. ;)

Alan
August 29th, 2011, 10:54 AM
a few problems:

1) Wait, so we only get one episode of River being evil? I call BS on that one. Seriously. the ENTIRE river-kills-doctor threat (with alex kingston anyway) was resolved in one episode? That seriously pisses me off.

Errrr...without seeing the rest of the series, how do you even know she doesn't revert back to being psychopath River?


2) Childhood Amy is more important to the Doctor, and liked more, Than IDRIS/the TARDIS itself? Really Moffat? I know you've got a thing for red-headed strippers, but...c'mon.

See stargate234's answer above for this.


3b) Rory knows how to use the Sonic, as demonstrated in the previous episode. Why is he inept at it now?

How do you know that it wasn't the Doctor using the Sonic in the previous episode? All you see is a hand and the flash of a cloak but that doesn't mean that the Doctor wasn't wearing a cloak too on the Cyberman spaceship. Also when going in to get Amy the door opens and Rory is holding the baby and then the Doctor comes in. It could have been the Doctor using the Sonic to get the door open on Demon's Run.


4) Humans...never got Time Travel technology. Period. That was the whole point of the "Year that never was" arc. Incongruity annoys me when its like this.

Again...see stargatefan234's answer above to this one.



5) If the TARDIS could mind-meld and talk to people, as she did with River....what the hell (censoring myself) is the reason for it not doing so with the Doctor, if for no reason other than to teach him how to park.

Because only River was conceived in the TARDIS and no-one else was.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
August 29th, 2011, 10:55 AM
I enjoyed this ep but I am still confused about the time line though.

Spimman
August 29th, 2011, 10:55 AM
Amazing episode, I can't believe how many things were tied up and set in motion during this episode. It's the kind of thing I always hope for but rarely see happen.


However - why would someone wanting to contact/meet the Doctor study archaeology?

Sounds like a pretty good way for a genius mind like River or the Doctor to find a fellow time traveler when events are solved, or slight references are made.


So, do we think the Silence (species from the beginning of Series 6) are the same Silence as mentioned in this episode? A religious cult?

I would guess The Species from Season 6 is are of The Silence who we now know to be a religious order\cult. Whether they are members as a whole just just in part has yet to be revealed.


4) Humans...never got Time Travel technology. Period. That was the whole point of the "Year that never was" arc. Incongruity annoys me when its like this.

1) Are we 100% sure about this or did they just never develop time travel that equaled the capabilities of the TARDIS?
2) Are we sure those people were "human"

stargatefan234
August 29th, 2011, 11:01 AM
5) If the TARDIS could mind-meld and talk to people, as she did with River....what the hell (censoring myself) is the reason for it not doing so with the Doctor, if for no reason other than to teach him how to park.



Because only River was conceived in the TARDIS and no-one else was.

and theres a difference between "talking" and "imparting imformation". also, The Impossible Astronaut / The Day of the Moon imply the doctor may know more about his TARDIS than he lets on, ie the scanner working when cloaked

Alan
August 29th, 2011, 11:04 AM
1) Are we 100% sure about this or did they just never develop time travel that equaled the capabilities of the TARDIS?
2) Are we sure those people were "human"

1) Humans have time travel technology in the 51st century. Its just not as comfortable as TARDIS travel as explained back in the 2007 story Utopia and demonstrated in the story The Sound of Drums.
2) True, they might not have been human. But even if they were, humans have time travel technology and, as I say above, the human race has developed an uncomfortable form of it by the 51st century so they could have been from that century or after it.

stargatefan234
August 29th, 2011, 11:05 AM
1) Humans have time travel technology in the 51st century. Its just not as comfortable as TARDIS travel as explained back in the 2007 story Utopia and demonstrated in the story The Sound of Drums.
2) True, they might not have been human. But even if they were, humans have time travel technology and, as I say above, the human race has developed an uncomfortable form of it by the 51st century so they could have been from that century or after it.

also, humanity has interbred so much by the 51st century, all "humans" are infact "near-humans"

Sealurk
August 29th, 2011, 11:07 AM
a few problems:

1) Wait, so we only get one episode of River being evil? I call BS on that one. Seriously. the ENTIRE river-kills-doctor threat (with alex kingston anyway) was resolved in one episode? That seriously pisses me off.

You know what, I agree with that - while I'm grateful for the resolution to some major plot threads that have been dangling for a while, psycho!River was great fun to watch and I wish we could see more. Then again, maybe Rory's unanswered question about whether all that stuff is gone out of her head now is a hint that River might have some kind of relapse. I can't imagine all that conditioning just deleted itself that "easily".


2) Childhood Amy is more important to the Doctor, and liked more, Than IDRIS/the TARDIS itself? Really Moffat? I know you've got a thing for red-headed strippers, but...c'mon.

Maybe it's as simple as Suranne Jones being unavailable for filming. Maybe it's because the Doctor needs the image of an innocent ("somebody I haven't screwed up yet"), not just a long time friend (he turned down Rose, Martha and Donna because of the guilt associated with them, what's to say he doesn't have similar or even worse issues regarding the TARDIS due to stealing her, possibly fancying a machine etc).


3) Why doesn't Rory have a Sonic Cane?

Because the world can't handle that much awesome.


3b) Rory knows how to use the Sonic, as demonstrated in the previous episode. Why is he inept at it now?

Wait - when was he inept? He told Amy how to use it - "psychic interface, just point-and-think" - in exactly the manner of somebody who knows how to use a sonic screwdriver.


4) Humans...never got Time Travel technology. Period. That was the whole point of the "Year that never was" arc. Incongruity annoys me when its like this.

Uh...what? 51st century, time agency, Jack Harkness, vortex manipulators, Dorium and his 'fresh off the wrist...I said off the wrist' lines in The Pandorica Opens (which is most definitely after the year that never was)...all of that still happens/happened as far as I can tell, and I don't remember any such comment about the year that never was being related to human time travel.


5) If the TARDIS could mind-meld and talk to people, as she did with River....what the hell (censoring myself) is the reason for it not doing so with the Doctor, if for no reason other than to teach him how to park.

I think it has to do with River saying she's the 'child of the TARDIS'. I think that means she has a link to the TARDIS above and beyond even the Doctor's, possibly that she may even be part TARDIS, who knows? I think it's going to be another future development, and story wise, I'd say it's an absolute one off brought about purely by the circumstances of River's conception, not a regular but unused feature.


6) The question is obviously "what is your name?", just as clearly as river=amy's daughter was.

Yeah, I think it's likely to be some variation on that, but I wouldn't want to lay money on it.

Carter1994
August 29th, 2011, 11:12 AM
Because the world can't handle that much awesome.

:lol: Indeed.

Also, I find it interesting that the poison Melody/River used was from the "Judas" plant.

jameshawking
August 29th, 2011, 12:32 PM
General responses:

1) Yeah, I screwed up and forgot about jack. You can kill me now. (btw, why is Jack now almost explicitly gay D: !? )

2) Screwed up on Rory, too. -facepalm- I need to watch these things more than 2 times, it seems.

3) "child of the TARDIS" doesn't really fly with me, for one reason.

The Doctor regenerated how many times in the TARDIS? It's even been shown to have a direct boost in his recovery time. So, being conceived on the TARDIS (which isn't even why she's epic, it's just the foundation) would, in my view, be less important than being reconstituted numerous times and the TARDIS having an explicit impact on it.

4) Why do I have horrible nightmares about Sonic Screwdrivers being as copious in DW as Keyblades now are in kingdom hearts? First it was the Dr, then Master (laser, though), and now every current companion knows how to use it and there are several of them (at least two)

4a) Fan-wanking wish: Rory getting into a fight and fighting with the sonic-cane.

5) A.K. shouldn't be going back to psychopath. We see her becoming an archaeologist so she can find him (granted, could be evil as well, but considering this was immediately after saving his life and burning her entire life up in doing so...). She fully can be, I realize, but I do doubt it. I imagine a bunch of "substitute river" characters, like Mel.

Ian-S
August 29th, 2011, 06:59 PM
hmm, what can I say that hasn't already been covered.... hmmm not much.

Well, I found myself wondering off halfway through to make a cup of tea, which is very unlike me, imho the story is now getting far too complicated to follow, especially for the younger side of the audience that it's mainly aimed at, it needs to be wrapped up asap as A.K. isn't getting any younger :lol:

Although I was enjoying the storyline, I'm not anymore.

SGalisa
August 29th, 2011, 08:27 PM
Not here. When I checked the BBCA "full" schedule (not the actual TV channel), it was showing reruns of previous eps. That was all day yesterday into midnight.

So, since we were having a hurricane, and I was sick from migraines and nausea (bad ginger ale did the final deed), I never turned the Tv on, and just went straight to my pillow. Never bothered recording (DVR) because I didn't know what time to record.

Anywho.. just found out from the BBCA, the following info----
...
(that's Monday pm night at midnight into Tuesday am)

nah, I don't think I'll stay up that late, but will see if we can DVR it to watch later in the week (next Sunday, instead, maybe). ;)


well, i know on BBCA that I watched sat night, i saw the best of the companions special, and this eps, and there was another dr who special last saturday

again, we've been screwed. no DW here. Time has changed again to Tuesday into Wednesday now.
No repeats on same Sat night before the next ep, either. Just BSG until next ep of DW starts. I give up.
Our DVR won't record if the codes are wrong either. No DW listed for tonight. :(
Top Gear did look interesting, tho. :p

Lahela
August 30th, 2011, 12:30 AM
hmm, what can I say that hasn't already been covered.... hmmm not much.

Well, I found myself wondering off halfway through to make a cup of tea, which is very unlike me, imho the story is now getting far too complicated to follow, especially for the younger side of the audience that it's mainly aimed at, it needs to be wrapped up asap as A.K. isn't getting any younger :lol:

Although I was enjoying the storyline, I'm not anymore.

I find myself asking my 13yo to remind me about things... he's become a better Whovian than me! :o

As to the wibbly wobbly timey wimey... theories busted again... my head hurts.

mi_guard
August 30th, 2011, 03:03 AM
how comes that River doesn't get poisoned with the poison she has on her lips?

Lahela
August 30th, 2011, 03:22 AM
how comes that River doesn't get poisoned with the poison she has on her lips?

I always think of Get Smart... rubber lips. :o

Coco Pops
August 30th, 2011, 04:29 AM
how comes that River doesn't get poisoned with the poison she has on her lips?

She's used them before too.... So that's not out of the question

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
August 30th, 2011, 09:20 AM
The only bit I don't get with the timeine is how River was a little kid in both 1969 and 1980s. She must have time traveled as a kid.

Lahela
August 30th, 2011, 11:24 AM
The only bit I don't get with the timeine is how River was a little kid in both 1969 and 1980s. She must have time traveled as a kid.

I got the impression (from her comment about making herself a bit younger) that she could control her aging.

Alan
August 30th, 2011, 01:58 PM
I got the impression (from her comment about making herself a bit younger) that she could control her aging.

That's right. That's why when she dies in Silence in the Library she looks slightly younger than she does now.

stargatefan234
August 30th, 2011, 01:59 PM
That's right. That's why when she dies in Silence in the Library she looks slightly younger than she does now.

:D i only thought of that today :D

Alan
August 30th, 2011, 03:06 PM
:D i only thought of that today :D

I wonder what that says about me then? :o

BruTak
August 30th, 2011, 03:12 PM
I wonder what that says about me then? :oThat great minds think alike and fools seldom differ? ;)

Alan
August 30th, 2011, 03:34 PM
That great minds think alike and fools seldom differ? ;)

I'll buy that. :D

Cold Fuzz
August 30th, 2011, 05:09 PM
I just watched the episode for the first time earlier today. Did anybody catch Colin Firth's cameo? :D He's Mel's first head teacher, the man she sees when she first starts being a problem child.

Edit: He doesn't have any lines but just gives this hilarious, exasperated look.

Sealurk
August 30th, 2011, 05:33 PM
I just watched the episode for the first time earlier today. Did anybody catch Colin Firth's cameo? :D He's Mel's first head teacher, the man she sees when she first starts being a problem child.

Edit: He doesn't have any lines but just gives this hilarious, exasperated look.

I've just watched the scene in question, and to be honest, I don't think that's Colin Firth. Unless I'm watching the wrong part.

Cold Fuzz
August 30th, 2011, 05:35 PM
I've just watched the scene in question, and to be honest, I don't think that's Colin Firth.

Really? He had the same height and build and one look at his face and I thought it was him. *shrugs* Well, that's the first thing I thought when I saw that teacher.

I'm actually re-watching the episode right now and I think my favorite moments in this episode so far both involve Rory: Rory punches Hitler. He then later yells, "Shut up Hitler!" :D

Coco Pops
August 30th, 2011, 05:41 PM
Well did anyone check the credits to see if it was him?

Sealurk
August 30th, 2011, 05:46 PM
I just checked the credits over on the TARDIS Index File wiki, no mention, nothing in trivia either, and I've just checked out the screencaps for the episode in question. Definitely similar, but not him.

Still, Mr Firth has mentioned he'd love to be on the show (as a villain, and to be fair headmasters probably count in that category when you're at school), so I fully expect him to show up in series 7!

Cold Fuzz
August 30th, 2011, 07:34 PM
I just watched the episode for the second time, with some questions popping up on the second viewing. If the Silence is supposed to be a religious movement, it would make sense that they would infiltrate religious orders like the Headless Monks and their ilk. However, how come the Clerics featured in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone were willing to work with the Doctor?


After this, I've given up all expectations they'll ever find Melody as a baby.

Very unfortunate but I think you're right. This would be devastating to parents who had their baby stolen from them... to never see their child grow. I suppose their consolation is their adventures with River on the TARDIS.

Alan
August 31st, 2011, 03:00 AM
I just watched the episode for the second time, with some questions popping up on the second viewing. If the Silence is supposed to be a religious movement, it would make sense that they would infiltrate religious orders like the Headless Monks and their ilk. However, how come the Clerics featured in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone were willing to work with the Doctor?

Because presumably at that time, the Doctor has defeated the Silence and the Clerics change allegiances. Don't forget that The Time of Angels takes place *after* A Good Man Goes to War.

Shpinxinator
August 31st, 2011, 05:35 AM
See now heres the thing, I have a therory that the time machine in "The Lodger" traveled somewhere after it vanished at the end of the episode and was found by the scilence.

knowles2
August 31st, 2011, 08:26 AM
Well we know the doctor goes to the planet (that neutral planet the marine spoke about in good men got to war), where someone is given the name River Song because the natives do not have there own word for melody.

I think there still the general assumption that person is still the river song we know and love.

We know the Doctor visited that planet because it the only time anything exciting happen was when the Doctor showed up once. I find it inconceivable that he would visit the planet an not find her. An we know from this point forward, Mel goes by name River Song/

for me this now the biggest question about River Song/Melody time line, as it suggests the doctor will meet her as a baby or as a child. But somehow this will not be there first encounter, and according to the last episode, it will not be where she gets the name Rive Song from either, despite what we were told in Good men go to war.


This is the only part in her time line that does not fit, no matter how I have tried to reconcile lets kill hitler with what we learnt in Good men go to war, the two seem contradictory at the moment.

The only solution I can come up with is either Mel was lieing about this being the first time she met the doctor directly or she had her mind wiped of past events, which makes sense as you do not want your best warrior to have to suffer the scars of defeat after defeat against the doctor.

There is a third possibility that Mel was playing dumb and that the doctor told her the let kill hitler events had to take place and that Mel just played along as to not to muck up her or the doctors timeline.
Which could explain why there was no obvious event which undid her programming that took place in Let Kill Hitler, because the doctor already undid it in a previous/future encounter. It would also explain where she got the poison to kill the doctor from the doctor himself.

An I like the idea of the doctor going around and trying to fix seriously muck timeline of River Song.

Alan
August 31st, 2011, 10:51 AM
<respectfully snipped>
An I like the idea of the doctor going around and trying to fix seriously muck timeline of River Song.

I don't think the Doctor's trying to fix River's time line but rather now trying to steer its course so that it follows a route which eventually leads her to the Library so he can meet her for the first time (from his POV) and then go on from there where they eventually end up in the situation they're in right now.

I love time travel. :D

DigiFluid
August 31st, 2011, 02:41 PM
In true Moffatt style though, this answers a number of questions whilst leaving others really glaringly wide open.

If the Silence are a religious order rather than a species, where do the aliens who we've been referring to till now as 'the Silence' fall into the hierarchy? Are they at the top and running things? If so, how are they running things when everyone forgets who they are? Strictly through post-hypnotic suggestion? If so, do subservient races know what "Silence will fall" actually means? Is Kovarian's Holy Army an alliance organized by the Silence against the Doctor in the intervening millennia between 1969 and Demons Run?

Were the Silence effective in modifying Melody/River in some way when they captured Amy back in Day of the Moon, or was that just the beginning of their plan? If so, what did they do to her?

How did baby Melody get from Demons Run back to 1969? What did the Silence do to her there? And did she actually live from 1969 up till 2011 continuously, or did she hop ahead to the 80s somehow?

Shpshftr
August 31st, 2011, 03:20 PM
Hello, everyone. First time posting.

Usually I just come here to read the episode discussion for the various tv shows I watch. My better half doesn't
watch the shows I like, so reading here satisfies my need to talk about the shows afterward - especially when I see someone bring up points in my mind. Wanted to comment on a few things this time, though.

First, I'm with the others who don't understand why Melody Pond is trying to kill the Doctor after her regeneration into the River Song we know. When asked why by one of the characters (can't remember which one, now) why, she basically says she's programmed to do that, or some such. BUT, she must remember that she had already, successfully, carried out her objective when she killed the Doctor when she was a small child in that suit. Does her objective require her to kill him twice? Does she know something we don't, like maybe when she killed him as a child in the spacesuit, either it didn't really kill him or it wasn't really him (maybe it was flesh doctor)? Either way, she did succeed killing him this time because he died, and that would have satisfied her programming. The fact that she brought him back to life won't affect the fact that her programming was fulfilled, I don't think. An interesting side note, remembering when she and the others were there to witness the Doctor getting shot, and River shoots at the person in the suit and misses, she says, "Of course not".....as if she already knew it was she herself in the suit and this time tried to stop herself BUT she remembered back when she was in the suit and the older version of herself fired and missed, so she knew she'd miss, but had to try anyway. I love time travel shows. LOL

Next, I think I know what the Doctor whispered to her and why. In the Silence In The Library/Forest of The Dead episodes, River had to convince the Doctor (#10) to trust her and she knew the way to do that was to whisper to him his real name. She knew by then that the Doctor would trust anyone who knew his real name because he'd only tell someone he really trusted. Now, skip ahead in time to this episode (ahead for the Doctor but back in River's past). Doctor #11 was dying and he knew it. He also remembered that River told him his name back then in the Library. In order for her to do that, she had to know his name. The Doctor knew he had to tell her his name before he died so she'd know it to tell him as #10 in the Library. No, the Doctor didn't die permanently then, but at the time he was dying, he really thought it was the end, and he knew River had to be told. She responded in an almost sarcastic way, which makes sense because if he whispered for her to tell this River person (who River didn't know was herself yet) what his name was (this River that the Doctor kept talking about as if he knew her), River would imagine, as anyone would, that this River person would already know his name. Hence her sarcastic way of say, "I'm sure she knows." Cause yes, in her place, I'd be sure this River person he kept talking about would already know his name since they obviously knew each other. She was probably thinking it an odd thing to say to someone. The only thing that makes me doubt this theory and wonder if he really did tell her to tell River he loved her was her reaction to finding out she herself was River. She cried...like she just found out that the man she just killed loved her.

Hmm. Don't these comment boxes have a weird word wrap, cutting words in half, or am doing something wrong? :(

DigiFluid
August 31st, 2011, 04:14 PM
BUT, she must remember that she had already, successfully, carried out her objective when she killed the Doctor when she was a small child in that suit.
We don't know if she was in the suit or not. The camera cut away before the visor opened.


Hmm. Don't these comment boxes have a weird word wrap, cutting words in half, or am doing something wrong? :(
It's been doing that ever since the last "upgrade" of the forum. Really annoying.

Teddybrown
August 31st, 2011, 04:25 PM
Hello, everyone. First time posting.

Usually I just come here to read the episode discussion for the various tv shows I watch. My better half doesn't
watch the shows I like, so reading here satisfies my need to talk about the shows afterward - especially when I see someone bring up points in my mind. Wanted to comment on a few things this time, though.

First, I'm with the others who don't understand why Melody Pond is trying to kill the Doctor after her regeneration into the River Song we know. When asked why by one of the characters (can't remember which one, now) why, she basically says she's programmed to do that, or some such. BUT, she must remember that she had already, successfully, carried out her objective when she killed the Doctor when she was a small child in that suit. Does her objective require her to kill him twice? Does she know something we don't, like maybe when she killed him as a child in the spacesuit, either it didn't really kill him or it wasn't really him (maybe it was flesh doctor)? Either way, she did succeed killing him this time because he died, and that would have satisfied her programming. The fact that she brought him back to life won't affect the fact that her programming was fulfilled, I don't think. An interesting side note, remembering when she and the others were there to witness the Doctor getting shot, and River shoots at the person in the suit and misses, she says, "Of course not".....as if she already knew it was she herself in the suit and this time tried to stop herself BUT she remembered back when she was in the suit and the older version of herself fired and missed, so she knew she'd miss, but had to try anyway. I love time travel shows. LOL

Welcome fellow Whovian!
Im going to agree with Digi here, and as most of you probably already know, Im one of the people who dont think it is River who shoots the Doctor in the spacesuit.
Heres a few reasons why:
1) We were never shown who was in the suit
2) It seems too obvious
3) As some people have said, why would she try and kill the Doctor again, when she did it on the beach. But what if it isnt her on the beach and this is the first time shes tried to kill him

I have plenty of other reasons why I dont think its River in the suit, but they slip my mind at the moment.
And as Ive said already, I will happily put my hands up and say Im wrong if it is proved to be River who does shoot the Doctor (if it is, I hope theres still a Moffat twist), but till then, I stand my ground! lol

EDIT: Bloody hell! just found this clip from Lets Kill Hitler, but listen very carefully afer Rory says 'Ive got this pounding in my head'
Is it just me or does it sound like the Silence audio cut suggesting they may be there??
Heres the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi4ENC031iU&feature=player_embedded

Shpshftr
August 31st, 2011, 05:05 PM
We don't know if she was in the suit or not. The camera cut away before the visor opened.True enough. I think I'm operating on the assumption that it was her for a number of reasons but you're right, until they specifically state that it was her, we don't really know and they could be leading us on a wild goose chase.


But what if it isnt her on the beach and this is the first time shes tried to kill himAn intriguing point. That would make this later attempt make sense. That would make me really look forward to see who they reveal the suit occupant to really be and why. Either way, I'm sure I'll enjoy whatever the actual reveal is. I'm pretty easy to please when it comes to my favorite shows (which are dropping in number as they cancel them all one by one. *sigh*).


does it sound like the Silence audio cut suggesting they may be thereHmm...I may have to go check (I don't remember that sound), but it wouldn't surprise me if they were there. Heck, I may have to go back and watch that group of episodes to refresh the memory.

Ian-S
August 31st, 2011, 06:41 PM
1) We were never shown who was in the suit

True, but...


2) It seems too obvious

So did the whole River being Amy's baby theory, but that turned out to be true in the end.


3) As some people have said, why would she try and kill the Doctor again, when she did it on the beach.

The only thing I can think of for this is that she reverts to her basic "programming" everytime she regenerates, a bit like Robocop's Prime Directives - it's likely that if she ever had to regenerate, it would be because she had been "killed" by the Doctor, so when she finishes regenerating, her first thought is to kill him, it may even be that she forget's that she has done it previously etc.

It wouldn't be much good creating an assassin who is immortal, but who forget's what their mission is when they are resurrected.

Pharaoh Atem
August 31st, 2011, 06:50 PM
brillence

Pharaoh Atem
August 31st, 2011, 09:01 PM
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k591/paulm84/f1c9e659.jpg

the newspaper no date tnat i can tell

Cold Fuzz
September 1st, 2011, 12:39 AM
In true Moffatt style though, this answers a number of questions whilst leaving others really glaringly wide open.

If the Silence are a religious order rather than a species, where do the aliens who we've been referring to till now as 'the Silence' fall into the hierarchy? Are they at the top and running things? If so, how are they running things when everyone forgets who they are? Strictly through post-hypnotic suggestion? If so, do subservient races know what "Silence will fall" actually means? Is Kovarian's Holy Army an alliance organized by the Silence against the Doctor in the intervening millennia between 1969 and Demons Run?

Were the Silence effective in modifying Melody/River in some way when they captured Amy back in Day of the Moon, or was that just the beginning of their plan? If so, what did they do to her?

How did baby Melody get from Demons Run back to 1969? What did the Silence do to her there? And did she actually live from 1969 up till 2011 continuously, or did she hop ahead to the 80s somehow?

I'm inclined to think that the entire plot surrounding Melody/River was an act of revenge on the part of the Silence (the aliens) for the Doctor effectively liberating Earth from their influence back in 1969. But the fact that such a large faction of humans (Kovarian's people) would serve the Silence either willingly or by manipulation indicates that outwitting the Silence using their own post-hypnotic suggestion won't nearly be enough to defeat them. I'm beginning to think that the only way for the Doctor to truly defeat them would be to have them fall inside their own cracks in and be obliterated from the timeline. What irony would that be. But if the cracks didn't actually happen... ugh. I should know better than to ponder time paradoxes past midnight. :P

Alan
September 1st, 2011, 04:01 AM
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k591/paulm84/f1c9e659.jpg

the newspaper no date tnat i can tell

Local newspapers don't tend to have dates on them. But dating that paper...judging by the look of it, the paper colour and fading...it's old. It definitely wasn't printed a day or two after the crop circles were discovered.

BruTak
September 1st, 2011, 04:55 AM
Local newspapers don't tend to have dates on them. But dating that paper...judging by the look of it, the paper colour and fading...it's old. It definitely wasn't printed a day or two after the crop circles were discovered.Dunno what your local paper is like, but I can assure you that mine - the Greenock Telegraph - has both day and date prominently displayed below the masthead.

DigiFluid
September 1st, 2011, 09:39 AM
Yeah newspapers pretty much always have the date on them :confused:

Interesting other tidbits, I Googled both "Colchester Knights" and "McGriffin suspended" and got no relevant results. Apparently neither that team nor that player exist.

DigiFluid
September 1st, 2011, 09:41 AM
I'm inclined to think that the entire plot surrounding Melody/River was an act of revenge on the part of the Silence (the aliens) for the Doctor effectively liberating Earth from their influence back in 1969. But the fact that such a large faction of humans (Kovarian's people) would serve the Silence either willingly or by manipulation indicates that outwitting the Silence using their own post-hypnotic suggestion won't nearly be enough to defeat them. I'm beginning to think that the only way for the Doctor to truly defeat them would be to have them fall inside their own cracks in and be obliterated from the timeline. What irony would that be. But if the cracks didn't actually happen... ugh. I should know better than to ponder time paradoxes past midnight. :P
Let me just add to your headache: if the new universe was reconstructed from the particles of the timeline experienced by the TARDIS as well as Amy's memories, both of those experienced the cracks. So shouldn't the new universe of Big Bang 2 have the Cracks in it as well?

Does your head hurt yet? :p

SaberBlade
September 1st, 2011, 11:33 AM
Yeah newspapers pretty much always have the date on them :confused:

Interesting other tidbits, I Googled both "Colchester Knights" and "McGriffin suspended" and got no relevant results. Apparently neither that team nor that player exist.

There is a phone number on it too and it looks like an 01632 area code which according to wikipedia is used for TV purposes only.


Local newspapers don't tend to have dates on them. But dating that paper...judging by the look of it, the paper colour and fading...it's old. It definitely wasn't printed a day or two after the crop circles were discovered.

I think it's colour and fading is to show that the Doctor discovered it sometime in the future and used it to return to that date/time in Leadworth.

Spimman
September 1st, 2011, 11:34 AM
Anyone else think it is possible that River was arrested before murdering the Doctor in a in a "pre-crime" kind of thing? Since those little people time travel and enforce justice?

Not sure I think that's it, but the thought occurred to me.

Skydiver
September 1st, 2011, 11:46 AM
its possible. the justice dudes obviously time travel and they wanted to kill hitler before he got 'bad', so maybe they imprisoned her before she could commit her crime.

Flyboy
September 1st, 2011, 11:50 AM
its possible. the justice dudes obviously time travel and they wanted to kill hitler before he got 'bad', so maybe they imprisoned her before she could commit her crime.

Actually no, they made a mistake, and recognised as much. They were about to leave for later in Hitler's time stream when the Doctor accidentally arrived.

DigiFluid
September 1st, 2011, 11:52 AM
I don't think so, no. They tried to abort the capture of Hitler when they realized that they were too early in his timestream, and even explained that they pluck war criminals out of time at the end of their particular established timelines.

I think the thing with River was not anything to do with crime prevention, but rather the zealousness of war criminal hunters having the biggest prize in history appear right in front of them. Imagine if Hitler or Himmler had survived WW2 and French/German/Israeli war criminal hunters found themselves unexpectedly face-to-face with one of them. They'd leap at the opportunity to capture them, consequences be damned.


edit; DAMN YOU FOB :p

DigiFluid
September 1st, 2011, 11:55 AM
There is a phone number on it too and it looks like an 01632 area code which according to wikipedia is used for TV purposes only.
The UK's analogue of "555", I presume?

SaberBlade
September 1st, 2011, 12:26 PM
Anyone else think it is possible that River was arrested before murdering the Doctor in a in a "pre-crime" kind of thing? Since those little people time travel and enforce justice?

Not sure I think that's it, but the thought occurred to me.

I don't believe so as doing that would ultimately change the future. The Justice Department (who run the Teselecta) are more interested in punishing those who go unpunished, which is a surprise considering he [Hitler] killed himself. Makes me wonder what really happens to Hitler since they wanted to "give him hell" so either they killed Hitler (thus becoming part of history) or replaced him and he's being tortured somewhere while they pretended to be Hitler at the time of his death.


The UK's analogue of "555", I presume?

Basically yeah, but for the UK it seems to be a lot more thought out as there are fake numbers set aside for a decent amount of cities, cellphones, freephones, premium rate numbers. The fact they used that number would suggest they aren't placing Leadworth anywhere specific, otherwise they could have used a number for the county it's located in.

Carter1994
September 1st, 2011, 01:36 PM
Actually no, they made a mistake, and recognised as much. They were about to leave for later in Hitler's time stream when the Doctor accidentally arrived.

I thought that was a bit odd. I mean, they go through all of this trouble to infiltrate Hitler's staff (down to the exact skin color and all that :P) and yet somehow didn't notice it was the wrong year until the EXACT moment they were confronting Hitler? Not to mention after they'd killed a member of his staff, thus messing with the time-stream...

TheLadyMore
September 1st, 2011, 01:57 PM
I actually thought the episode was going to be about them fighting Hitler at the end of WWII *shrugs* but of course never EVER judge anything by its tittle.

I loved this episode. I love the many instances of off beat humor, like Rory, Amy and The Doctor screaming at Mel's car charging at them, them regretting saving Hitler only to have Rory push him in a closet and Rory beating up the robotic human.

I also liked seeing River's development, why in the end she goes from being urged to kill the Doctor to instead saving his life. Personally the River/Doctor Shipper in me squealed at the part where she used all her regenerations to revive the Doctor, it was just beautiful.

And of course...Matt Smith's performance was brillant as usual!

Cold Fuzz
September 1st, 2011, 10:14 PM
Let me just add to your headache: if the new universe was reconstructed from the particles of the timeline experienced by the TARDIS as well as Amy's memories, both of those experienced the cracks. So shouldn't the new universe of Big Bang 2 have the Cracks in it as well?

Does your head hurt yet? :p

I must quote Miles O'Brien: I hate temporal mechanics. :P

I've given up trying to make sense of whether or not the Cracks still exist or not or whether they happened or not. I just roll with the Doctor's notion that time can be unwritten as well as rewritten. Either that or the whole thing's just hopelessly FUBAR anyway so I don't bother trying to wrap my brain around it. :lol:

knowles2
September 2nd, 2011, 01:50 AM
I thin captain Janeway had a couple of better quote.

Time travel. Since my first day on the job as a Starfleet captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a headache.

Or there this one

My advice on making sense of temporal paradoxes is simple: don't even try.

PMN1
September 2nd, 2011, 12:24 PM
I thin captain Janeway had a couple of better quote.

Time travel. Since my first day on the job as a Starfleet captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a headache.

Or there this one

My advice on making sense of temporal paradoxes is simple: don't even try.

I'm waiting for someone to say 'Oh no...not again......'

Coco Pops
September 2nd, 2011, 06:19 PM
I thin captain Janeway had a couple of better quote.

Time travel. Since my first day on the job as a Starfleet captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a headache.

Or there this one

My advice on making sense of temporal paradoxes is simple: don't even try.

The problem with that is that Janeway said it, but then gets caught up in a hell of a lot of them during the series.

Coco Pops
September 2nd, 2011, 06:19 PM
Just over 8 hours to go for the show here in Australia

Quizziard
September 2nd, 2011, 10:32 PM
Just over 8 hours to go for the show here in Australia
And only about 12 here until the next one... this time zones thing isn't the way I imagined it :D

Coco Pops
September 2nd, 2011, 11:01 PM
And only about 12 here until the next one... this time zones thing isn't the way I imagined it :D

Why is that?

What country are you in?

Quizziard
September 3rd, 2011, 06:06 AM
Why is that?
What country are you in?

The UK. So "Night Terrors" is on in, now, 5 hours...

[I was being facetious about timezones. In this case you're a week behind, in Doctor Who terms, rather than temporally 12 hours ahead... ]

Coco Pops
September 4th, 2011, 06:27 AM
Ooh that was cool..........

Loved the cornfield....... Loved the Tesselecta.......I wonder if they just left it there like that in Germany or whether it left of its own accord? Reminded me of the failed movie "Meet Dave."

Well we learn more of what the Silence is. How River got the diary, and so forth.... I wonder if we'll see more of the Silence again and of EEPL?

But I still have some unanswered things?

What about the Tesselecta? Will it return to its home or is is stuck standing there in Germany, and yes I know minor nitpick but really? Or will it get a new crew?

Also it did bug me a teeeeny tiny bit that they had so much free time in that hall after River caused a commotion. Wouldn't the place be swarming with nazis? And Hitler seriously did he stay in the cupboard? (Yes I know the writers were making a rude metaphor there)

Also the biggest bug for me was the programming of River Song. She does what she's programmed to do but is then freed. But how was she programmed? Just how much time did EEPL have to program a baby? If we take the fact Mels lived with Amy and Rory as her Best Friend they would have had to let the baby go back to Earth to find Amy at some point? So just how long did EEPL have to program her?

EEPL= Evil Eye Patch Lady

Quizziard
September 4th, 2011, 09:39 PM
So just how long did EEPL have to program her?

EEPL= Evil Eye Patch Lady

Given that the "Impossible Astronaut's" little girl was about nine, that would give them nine years... she mentioned in "Hitler" she regenerated back to a toddler, at which point she had to grow up a little and then get to England to find Rory and Amy.

Since she explicitly says that the New York alley regeneration was the previous one to becoming Alex Kingston, do we have to assume that she visibly ages slower than humans?

Blencathra
September 5th, 2011, 09:08 AM
I was on holiday last week when this was on & had to squint at it on a tiny telly. Well I've had chance to watch it properly now and I can't begin to say how much I loved it (but I'll have a go). :D

I have to admit at the beginning I had a bit of a face on. I didn't like Mels very much & hoped she wouldn't be around very long - as I thought she was too similar to River (my own stupidity amazes me at times :P) I should have realised right at the beginning when Mels is looking down at the Doctor in the field & the sun is behind her back so we can't see her face - just like River in The Impossible Astronaut when she shoots off the Doctor's stetson.

:) Loved seeing young Amy & Rory. Young Rory is just how I imagined him to be.

:) Loved the timey wimey twist that has Amy & Rory actually bringing up their daughter without realising it.

:) "That's right Adolf. The British are coming."

:D "Shut up Hitler." And.... "I'm putting Hitler in the cupboard."

:D "Shut up Dad. I'm focussing on a dress size."

:D "Hello Benjamin."

:D "The teeth, the teeth! Oh look at them! Watch out that bow tie!"

:D "Oh that's MAGNIFICENT!" I'm going to wear lots of jodhpurs!"

:) "My bespoke psychopath."

:D "Well I was on my way to this gay gypsy bar mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought - gosh the Third Reich's a bit rubbish."

:D "Fat lot of good that is, you big ging."

:S My one tiny gripe (if you can call it that). Why oh why did River have to use up ALL her regerations bringing back the Doctor - because I want River to be around forever and popping up in a regenerated form for years to come.

I would have given this episode 10/10 but that would put it on the same footing as my All Time Favourite, Blink, and I didn't think it was quite that good. So I'm giving it 9.5/10. :)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6111748186_e6a2db6402_o.gif

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6196/6111747778_eac5a31ff0_o.gif

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6069/6111746526_c4b35d5396_o.gif

SGalisa
September 5th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Finally got to see the eppy. It went too fast -- IMO. :(
I think the transformation of bad Melody/River into good River between when the Doctor whispered into River's ear just went too fast psychologically for River. If she was programmed to be evil and kill the Doctor, which once her lipstick did the deed, it was essentially over, why would she even *care* to change into someone good? That's the part that could have taken longer to explain.

And the ending just came too soon. *sigh*

Yes, it was interesting watching Amy and Rory basically raising their daughter (in the same age bracket they were in) without knowing it, until Mels regenerated into Melody/River. :p

Yes, it was nice about how River gave up her remaining regenerations to save the Doctor.. and it was great seeing the Doctor whispering --most probably his name-- into River's ear to keep the continuity of Doctor #10's first encounter with River Song intact.

But there just seemed to be parts of the story that just went by too fast in the transitioning of River's personality into someone good. Why would she care long enough to sit (or stand) and watch the rest of the scenario play out? Plus, there's a ton of back story missing about baby Melody into the little girl in the spacesuit, etc. Snippets left off as just side info and not much more, or stuff waiting for a future eppy like maybe Melody's timeline life possibly being reset into a different direction by some other time interfering creature?

;)

rockstarsister
September 5th, 2011, 07:16 PM
it was an awesome yet very confusing episode but they left Hitler in the cupboard now what I want to know is if the writers meant to leave him in the cupboard or just completely forgot that they put him in there until they were editing???

Coco Pops
September 5th, 2011, 09:41 PM
it was an awesome yet very confusing episode but they left Hitler in the cupboard now what I want to know is if the writers meant to leave him in the cupboard or just completely forgot that they put him in there until they were editing???

And did he stay there the entire episode, which makes no sense at all..... And I can suspend disbelief for the sake of a story but all that commotion people screaming running out of the dining hall and no nazis come to investigate...

knowles2
September 6th, 2011, 05:43 PM
And did he stay there the entire episode, which makes no sense at all..... And I can suspend disbelief for the sake of a story but all that commotion people screaming running out of the dining hall and no nazis come to investigate...

The room was surrounded by a sound dampening field, produce by the robot. Listening to what the actors says generally help you understand what going on screen occasionally.

Coco Pops
September 6th, 2011, 07:01 PM
The room was surrounded by a sound dampening field, produce by the robot. Listening to what the actors says generally help you understand what going on screen occasionally.

I didn't catch that bit.....But surely seeing all those folk running out of the hall must have raised some kind of alarm

rockstarsister
September 6th, 2011, 07:12 PM
but did they mean to leave him in the cupboard (this has been bugging me since Saturday)

Carter1994
September 6th, 2011, 08:25 PM
It's rather hard to forget a detail that important, so it was probably deliberate. Perhaps there was a later scene that involved Hitler, but was cut due to time constraints.

morbosfist
September 8th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Someone would come along and find Hilter eventually. They probably felt it best not to further antagonize him after admitting to being from the London Police.

mi_guard
September 9th, 2011, 05:13 AM
Someone would come along and find Hilter eventually. They probably felt it best not to further antagonize him after admitting to being from the London Police.
I would have loved to see that, I mean, mainly his explanation of why he was in there :)

fumblesmcstupid
September 10th, 2011, 02:37 AM
I loved the anti-bodies.

"You will feel a tingling sensation, then DEATH!"

OMG my brother and I keep saying that to eachother.

Coco Pops
September 10th, 2011, 07:18 AM
I loved the anti-bodies.

"You will feel a tingling sensation, then DEATH!"

OMG my brother and I keep saying that to eachother.

And they sounded like Tom Baker ....Awesomeness

Galileo_Galilee
September 10th, 2011, 09:26 AM
To top it off...

River IS the eye patch lady.

ANNNNNND...

The good man she kills is not the Doctor.

Quizziard
September 10th, 2011, 02:38 PM
To top it off...

River IS the eye patch lady.

ANNNNNND...

The good man she kills is not the Doctor.

Where were they shown? I don't remember either... (though I agree, as most probable, about the second ;) )

DigiFluid
September 10th, 2011, 02:58 PM
River IS the eye patch lady.
wat

Matt G
September 10th, 2011, 03:53 PM
1. When I saw the addition to the crop circle I thought 'River'.

2. When I saw some black girl getting out of the car I thought 'huh'?

3. When we find out her name is 'Mels' I thought 'AHA'.

4. Time vigilantes...not a bad idea.

5. They seemed to associate the TARDIS with Melody/River though.

6. And yet Melody/River still saves the Doctor.

Interesting...

Coco Pops
September 10th, 2011, 04:40 PM
To top it off...

River IS the eye patch lady.

ANNNNNND...

The good man she kills is not the Doctor.



WHERE did you hear this?

And that's it Moffat's screwed with the canon if River is Evil Eye Patch Lady.....

Galileo_Galilee
September 10th, 2011, 05:10 PM
WHERE did you hear this?

There was an ad that had some very very brief clips of upcoming episodes for the seasons. In on of the clips they showed River wearing an eyepatch.

It's something you have to be paying a lot of attention to to see it because of how brief it is.

If I am right I would appreciate some green.

If not, I'll give green to the people who disagreed with me.

morbosfist
September 10th, 2011, 05:14 PM
I'd green you if I could. Yes, that is a scene from a future episode, but taken completely out of context. In fact, based on the background of the scene in question, it may very well not even be real (in the sense that it's not an actual, in-universe fact, rather than the idea that it's been faked).

DigiFluid
September 10th, 2011, 05:38 PM
River isn't/won't be Kovarian. Two obvious reasons:
1) What possible reason could she have to manipulate her own childhood so that she'd end up in prison?
2) We've already seen River Song--played by Alex Kingston!!--die in Forest of the Dead.

I will, of course, toss some green your way if I'm wrong. But I'm sure I won't be.

Blencathra
September 10th, 2011, 05:51 PM
There was an ad that had some very very brief clips of upcoming episodes for the seasons. In on of the clips they showed River wearing an eyepatch.

It's something you have to be paying a lot of attention to to see it because of how brief it is.

If I am right I would appreciate some green.

If not, I'll give green to the people who disagreed with me.

A bet?! You're on. ;)

I don't think River is Kavorian either. If I'm wrong I'll gladly give you a green. :)

pbellosom
September 10th, 2011, 07:13 PM
I've been away from these forums for a while, so I don't know whether this idea on the eyepatches has been posted yet.

Kovarian wears an eyepatch. Clips from the trailer show the Doctor, River and the viking looking guy also wear eyepatches throughout the season. What if, the eyepatches have an image of a Silent on them? Then you always remember they exist.

morbosfist
September 10th, 2011, 08:03 PM
You have that backwards. Images of the Silent, like the Silent themselves, induce amnesia upon looking away.

Coco Pops
September 10th, 2011, 09:30 PM
I just hope that poster in the other thread is wrong about River being Kovarian

Quizziard
September 10th, 2011, 09:46 PM
It seems fairly clear that River isn't actually Kovarian... she's simply wearing an eye-patch. Which doesn't make Long John Silver, either....

Pharaoh Atem
September 10th, 2011, 10:00 PM
wat considering the source highly unlikely

Nth Chevron
September 11th, 2011, 08:34 AM
5. They seemed to associate the TARDIS with Melody/River though.

Could that be because its where the TARDIS ends up after future Doctor is killed?

River is a child of the TARDIS in a sense, would it not make sense for the TARDIS to then summon her child, as it were, to take custody of her, now her stolen Time-Lord is dead?

N.C

Galileo_Galilee
September 11th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Another thing that I realized is that those beings the Doctor fought in The Impossible Astronaut were not The Silence since the ship refereed to The Silence as a religious order.

Many sci - fi shows are fairly predictable for me. Doctor Who, at least in the modern era is not that predictable to me.

Quizziard
September 11th, 2011, 10:23 AM
Another thing that I realized is that those beings the Doctor fought in The Impossible Astronaut were not The Silence since the ship refereed to The Silence as a religious order.
It doesn't mean they can't be part of The Silence (i.e. the religious order).

Galileo_Galilee
September 11th, 2011, 10:25 AM
It doesn't mean they can't be part of The Silence

No, it doesn't.

Heck now I'm expecting that "The Silence Will Fall" to be played out by the end of this season, which might bring about an end to that religious order.

Dangit.

Nth Chevron
September 12th, 2011, 04:14 PM
Just a point of curiosity, The Silence is a religious order, just like the Anglican Marines and the Headless Monks, now, are the Monks headless for a reason beyond religious indoctrination?

No head = no eyes or brain - does that maybe counter the Post hypnotic suggestion used by the white Silents ?

Possibly a way of stopping them from taking over this order of Silence completely?

N.C

Coco Pops
September 12th, 2011, 05:29 PM
Just a point of curiosity, The Silence is a religious order, just like the Anglican Marines and the Headless Monks, now, are the Monks headless for a reason beyond religious indoctrination?

No head = no eyes or brain - does that maybe counter the Post hypnotic suggestion used by the white Silents ?

Possibly a way of stopping them from taking over this order of Silence completely?

N.C

I think they are headless so that they can't think for themselves. Basically bodies working on remote control from that papal mainframe.... You destroy that you destroy the monks. That's my take on it and remember when they fought the angels the Doctor said that this is the FINAL resting place of the headless monks... I find that interesting that he said that so does he play a part in their downfall, which makes no sense since he already mentions it in a past episode..

Coco Pops
September 12th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Personally I would like to see the monks and marines gone for good.

Quizziard
September 12th, 2011, 09:26 PM
I think they are headless so that they can't think for themselves. Basically bodies working on remote control from that papal mainframe.... You destroy that you destroy the monks. That's my take on it and remember when they fought the angels the Doctor said that this is the FINAL resting place of the headless monks... I find that interesting that he said that so does he play a part in their downfall, which makes no sense since he already mentions it in a past episode..
From memory, the "headless monks" were originally created as a cool-sounding group to have previously inhabited the crash-site planet. Then someone thought it would be even more cool, and shown internal consistency/cross-reference and timey-wimey-ness, by bringing them back to a period when they were still living. Which meant creating reasons for them being headless... And yes, that means they sacrifice their heads (the source of distracting thoughts) leaving them to follow their "religious" faith (i.e. their hearts).

Coco Pops
September 13th, 2011, 03:24 AM
From memory, the "headless monks" were originally created as a cool-sounding group to have previously inhabited the crash-site planet. Then someone thought it would be even more cool, and shown internal consistency/cross-reference and timey-wimey-ness, by bringing them back to a period when they were still living. Which meant creating reasons for them being headless... And yes, that means they sacrifice their heads (the source of distracting thoughts) leaving them to follow their "religious" faith (i.e. their hearts).

Well that's not possible as you can't survive with no head...... I still say they are merely bodies on remote control as external sensors to the computer that controls them.

Sealurk
September 13th, 2011, 04:33 AM
Well that's not possible as you can't survive with no head...... I still say they are merely bodies on remote control as external sensors to the computer that controls them.

And statues can't come alive and kill you when you don't look at them, things can't be bigger on the inside than the outside, time travel isn't thought to be possible and there are no humanoid reptiles living under the surface of the Earth, for starters.

Doctor Who has about as much scientific validity and realism as Futurama. Don't worry about it, enjoy the fantasy, the story, the characters. :)

Hang on a minute...headless monks, heads in jars...the monks are the bodies of celebrities in the New New York Head Museum!

Flyboy
September 13th, 2011, 10:37 PM
And statues can't come alive and kill you when you don't look at them, things can't be bigger on the inside than the outside, time travel isn't thought to be possible and there are no humanoid reptiles living under the surface of the Earth, for starters.



...

......

What?!?

Sealurk
September 14th, 2011, 12:24 AM
...

......

What?!?

I know, it's a big shock. I would say it gets better, but...yeah...

So, anyway, great episode!

maneth
June 18th, 2013, 09:05 AM
Cool episode! I really enjoyed the weirdness of the Teselecta. And of course, more info on Melody Pond / River Song too, and actually seeing her regenerate...

Coco Pops
June 18th, 2013, 08:29 PM
And Mels looked kind of hot before she transformed into the even hotter River Song

maneth
June 19th, 2013, 10:26 AM
:lol: