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GateWorld
July 5th, 2011, 07:13 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/torchwood/s4/immortal-sins/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/immortal-sins-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">TORCHWOOD: MIRACLE DAY</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/torchwood/s4/immortal-sins/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">IMMORTAL SINS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 407</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
With the camps brought to a temporary halt, Gwen kidnaps Jack in the hopes of rescuing her family. Jack recalls a past love affair with a man who he enlisted as his "companion" -- leading to a revelation about the origins of the Miracle.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/torchwood/s4/immortal-sins/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

morbosfist
August 19th, 2011, 08:01 PM
Now we're getting some traction. That's some determination. The man got one name, one piece of information, and managed to engineer a global conspiracy within his own lifetime to render the planet immortal. Also, Colonel Kira works for him, so that's good too.

MasySyma
August 20th, 2011, 09:10 AM
I found episode 7 slow, but it also provided some much needed exposition. I also appreciate that the villain (at least one of them) has motivation other than "let's destory the world."

I also appreciated honesty out of Gwen for the first time in four years.

Skydiver
August 20th, 2011, 09:55 AM
I agree, it was slow. LIke 40 minutes were spend to build up to the last 10.

and yeah, we have motive, scorned lover and we have almost a century's of revenge coming to play

RJLCyberPunk
August 20th, 2011, 01:49 PM
I frankly have to skip all the Gay stuff and I do Thank God for DVR but it does add anm interesting backdrop even the Doctor is mentioned so I have to wonder if he will be making a Cameo appearance.

Skydiver
August 20th, 2011, 01:53 PM
i think we'd have heard had the doctor been cast.

DigiFluid
August 20th, 2011, 02:21 PM
Ugh, sloppy writing. Both season-wide and individual to this episode. The story of the scorned lover in the 20s should have been told right near the beginning of the season, or else gradually in bits throughout each episode up till now. The way it's been handled now, I feel like I've been jerked around for six episodes guessing at something that couldn't possibly have been known till episode 7. Lame. Extremely lame.

And the writing in this episode itself was pretty frickin' lousy too. Paper-thin explanation for Jack's being in America, Jack being a supposedly covert TW agent who apparently springs thieving illegal immigrants because they make his pants twitch, flat and poorly told relationship between Jack and Angelo, wasted opportunity to do a bit of period-piece storytelling, pretty much zero reason for Jack to bring Angelo in on TW, mostly lifeless dialogue between Jack and Gwen in the car the whole episode long, and really--Gwen needing to borrow Jack was suddenly suspicious to Esther, and she randomly decides to check the contact lenses? Wtf?

Who wrote this garbage?

EvilSpaceAlien
August 20th, 2011, 03:45 PM
Who wrote this garbage?

Jane Espenson. :P

DigiFluid
August 20th, 2011, 06:44 PM
Oh. Well that explains everything.

knowles2
August 21st, 2011, 02:41 AM
Sound like a pretty crap explanation to the immortality plot line. a scorn lover, surely the writers of TW could have come up with something more original than that.

An personally anything that can undo something a being as powerful as a person absorbing the time vortex needs something pretty powerful technology. So it would make sense that the doctor would show up and deal with it, sooner or later., now that it been use and the earth has experience the change it needed to, him interfering now should not break any rules. because undoing what ever rose did would surely involve manipulating the time vortex itself.

Also why would a lover go through all this trouble and then order his death on the plane. I presuming someone would only make himself immortal if he could live that immortality with his lover after all.

I have not seen the episode yet so may be they explain all of that in the episode.

LtColCarter
August 21st, 2011, 10:50 AM
I liked getting glimpses into Jack's past...

Krisz
August 21st, 2011, 11:11 AM
What is it about poor guys called Jack being brutally killed, coming back to life and killed over and over again?!!!

This episode did go round the houses a bit with revealing who was behind the whole miracle day thing, it was pretty obvious to me pretty quickly that it was Angelo. Still, it was interesting to get a bit of information on Jack's past.

mathpiglet
August 21st, 2011, 11:31 AM
Oh, so many franchises!

Immortality!

I had problems with all the agony...killing Jack over and over again.

When Jack and Angelo open the box and...

...and the parasite was there, my hubby said, "Oh look a goa'uld.

I'm still enjoying it. I have no idea how this will be resolved.

I enjoyed this review (http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2011/08/torchwood_miracle_day_episode_6.html).

LtColCarter
August 21st, 2011, 01:24 PM
When Jack and Angelo open the box and...

...and the parasite was there, my hubby said, "Oh look a goa'uld.

:lol:

DigiFluid
August 21st, 2011, 05:45 PM
I'm still enjoying it. I have no idea how this will be resolved.
Really? Seems pretty obvious to me now. Jilted ex-lover has now found a way to reverse the situation for Jack so he knows what it feels like to be the scorned one for something beyond his control. Jack very sadly finds a way to kill the old man ex-lover and things to back to normal.

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like this will be the ludicrous solution, after seeing this absurdly awful episode.

Spimman
August 22nd, 2011, 06:36 AM
While Angelo is obviously in on this whole thing, let's not forget the three men who shook hands in a triangle way when they agreed to purchase Jack. Those 3 had to be the brains (at least originally) behind the whole thing. I'm guessing next week we'll see how they and Angelo have worked together on this, and they are likely alien.

Angelo is how old at this point? Roughly 110? Was he already made immortal?

thecolouryes
August 22nd, 2011, 09:46 AM
Ugh, sloppy writing. Both season-wide and individual to this episode. The story of the scorned lover in the 20s should have been told right near the beginning of the season, or else gradually in bits throughout each episode up till now. The way it's been handled now, I feel like I've been jerked around for six episodes guessing at something that couldn't possibly have been known till episode 7. Lame. Extremely lame.

And the writing in this episode itself was pretty frickin' lousy too. Paper-thin explanation for Jack's being in America, Jack being a supposedly covert TW agent who apparently springs thieving illegal immigrants because they make his pants twitch, flat and poorly told relationship between Jack and Angelo, wasted opportunity to do a bit of period-piece storytelling, pretty much zero reason for Jack to bring Angelo in on TW, mostly lifeless dialogue between Jack and Gwen in the car the whole episode long, and really--Gwen needing to borrow Jack was suddenly suspicious to Esther, and she randomly decides to check the contact lenses? Wtf?

Who wrote this garbage?

I hated it too. While I was watching it, especially the 20s bits, I kept wondering to myself if the writers had gotten tired and searched the online vault of awful fanfiction for some particularly poorly written Jack/OC smut fic and then cast it. But that's just my opinion as a fanfiction author who's seen a lot of the awful stuff fans think other fans want to read. [Apparently, some fans even want to read it.]


While Angelo is obviously in on this whole thing, let's not forget the three men who shook hands in a triangle way when they agreed to purchase Jack. Those 3 had to be the brains (at least originally) behind the whole thing. I'm guessing next week we'll see how they and Angelo have worked together on this, and they are likely alien.

Angelo is how old at this point? Roughly 110? Was he already made immortal?

Agree on the point about those three. Seemed alien when we met them because their cadences/habits weren't exactly identical to the rest of everyone else supposedly from the 20s. And otherwise, this has been so far a totally alien-free series about alien invasions (?!?).

Oh, and the thing with Angelo (I thought) was kind of obvious. He's probably in a wheel chair on life support somewhere, and Miracle Day was perfectly timed to keep him alive.

Spimman
August 22nd, 2011, 11:11 AM
Oh, and the thing with Angelo (I thought) was kind of obvious. He's probably in a wheel chair on life support somewhere, and Miracle Day was perfectly timed to keep him alive.

Quite possibly, but why would he want to live forever like that? Unless he is somehow gaining something else from the "Miracle"

Flyboy
August 22nd, 2011, 01:04 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with much of what's been said here.

I actually think it was a better episode than last weeks, but it had its problems.

Ironically, minor issues are the most annoying ones, specifically the coat, as has already been mentioned. Now, it IS entirely possible that Jack could have gotten such a coat Pre-WW1, though I wonder about that...

What gets me is that Jack has always been rather... better at the Doctor at blending in in his time period. Not necessarily ALWAYS in clothing, but in appearance, take his hair and the style of his coat in the CoE flash backs.

I did like the 'Goa'uld' sub plot, very Torchwoood, very cool. Ironic that the big bad behind that was a villain first introduced in The Sarah Jane Adventures, named in passing by an angry father...

DigiFluid
August 22nd, 2011, 01:17 PM
Ironic that the big bad behind that was a villain first introduced in The Sarah Jane Adventures, named in passing by an angry father...
I missed that reference completely. Fill me in?

Flyboy
August 22nd, 2011, 01:38 PM
I missed that reference completely. Fill me in?

The "Goa'uld" was put into the hands of the 'bad guys' by the Trickster's Brigade, according to Jack. The Trickster's first appearance was in The Sarah Jane Adventures episode: Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane?. The Trickster was named when Alan, Maria's father, first sees it and attempts to charge at it. So far the Trickster has only ever appeared in TSJA, but the Trickster's Brigade has been in Doctor Who, - Turn Left. It's the first Torchwood mention of The Trickster's Brigade, and it's not surprising, because the Trickster is actually quite laughable as a singularly entity, but quite chilling as a concept, hence why I think outside of TSJA the 'brigade' is utilised by writers, not the Trickster.

DigiFluid
August 22nd, 2011, 03:43 PM
Ahh okay. Yes, I remember the Trickster very well. I just missed the line in TW :)

thecolouryes
August 22nd, 2011, 09:12 PM
Flyboy: The small stuff gets me, too. I tend to use those little minor details to determine how much care/thought the directors, casting department, make-up and props, etc. invest in the realism of a show. Also, I completely don't understand why Jack has the coat. In all of the episodes that he was a companion in new series 1 of Doctor Who, he changed his outfit and -- get this! -- blended it. And then he comes back to life and suddenly has to look like he's from the 1940s?? I thought Torchwood would have offered some explanation by now for why he would keep that look past the '40s when he was happy to blend in with the outfits of the late 19th Century (I'm remembering a flashback in one of the first two seasons of Torchwood, don't remember which episode, but when Jack was explaining about the founding of Torchwood), but it just looks like their costume department is lazy now. *shrug* At least the plotlines aren't meaningless.

Spimman
August 23rd, 2011, 11:57 AM
The real question is...if Jack is\becomes The Face of Bo...does he still own the coat? :p

thecolouryes
August 23rd, 2011, 09:12 PM
The real question is...if Jack is\becomes The Face of Bo...does he still own the coat? :p
He's made it into some sort of special covering for that silly tank getup. Of course. :P

Cairistiona
August 24th, 2011, 01:45 PM
Uh, a bit slow, but at least some explanations. And now I'm curious again who's behind it all and why. And the coat, of course ;)

Darren
August 25th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Just ended on BBC in the U.K. I appreciated the backstory and the fact that Jack has a relationship with the person who seems to be pulling the strings behind the Miracle (or is at least close to them). It's not just going to be a no-name who steps out from behind the curtain. And Angelo has a legitimate beef with Jack, even if from Jack's perspective the guy was a Judas.

The writing wasn't bad, if a bit slashfic-happy. I did have to avert my delicate eyes at one point (presumably the U.S. edit was wang-free?). I did appreciate the later car dialogue -- Gwen and Jack finally being honest about their relationship. It's kinda twisted and disfunctional, at the end of the day. Either the characters have no clue what it means to love someone (i.e. self-sacrificially, putting their needs before your own), or the writers don't. I'll assume they're just writing the characters as authentic, flawed human beings.

DigiFluid
August 25th, 2011, 02:34 PM
I haven't seen the UK version, but I'm pretty sure I saw some sausage in the Starz version.

Can't say I have any desire to go back and double-check though :lol:

Matt G
August 25th, 2011, 03:11 PM
1. Fair point about the coat in 1927. Bear in mind Jack went through WWII at least twice before he first joined Torchwood so he would certainly have had it. Possibly still lazy writing but it's plausible that there was a 1920 coat that looked similar enough to it that he thought he could give his favourite coat an early airing.

2. Angelo...I'm going for him becoming one of the first beneficiaries of immortality.

3. Gwen...interesting exchange but Torchwood was always dysfunctional so meh.

4. Generally liked the 1920s stuff...the reference to "family" foreshadowed something ugly happening given that "families" were referenced before.

Let's see what happens now...

Naonak
August 25th, 2011, 03:32 PM
The story of the scorned lover in the 20s should have been told right near the beginning of the season, or else gradually in bits throughout each episode up till now. The way it's been handled now, I feel like I've been jerked around for six episodes guessing at something that couldn't possibly have been known till episode 7. Lame. Extremely lame.
Totally agree, it should have been spread through the season. Could have helped with the issue of a couple of episodes being notably Jack-light, too.


Not really happy with how easily Gwen just decided to hand Jack over. "If there was another way out I'd have thought of it!", then Rex and Esther are just like "Can we track them?" "Yes." Come on Gwen, sort it out.

Loved the Trickster's Brigade reference far more than is probably reasonable :p, but Pre-Utopia Jack using the "fixed point in time" line bugged the hell out of me.

Flyboy
August 25th, 2011, 10:45 PM
Totally agree, it should have been spread through the season. Could have helped with the issue of a couple of episodes being notably Jack-light, too.


Not really happy with how easily Gwen just decided to hand Jack over. "If there was another way out I'd have thought of it!", then Rex and Esther are just like "Can we track them?" "Yes." Come on Gwen, sort it out.

Loved the Trickster's Brigade reference far more than is probably reasonable :p, but Pre-Utopia Jack using the "fixed point in time" line bugged the hell out of me.

Didn't notice that. Was that in 1927? God that's annoying.

*rages*

Matt G, as off 1927, Jack would have only lived in WW2 once, the Empty Child incident, and I doubt he still had his uniform from that.



Regarding Gwen not having any options, remember, they were in her EYES. All she could do was hope Esther and Rex would get suspicious.

Naonak
August 26th, 2011, 02:14 AM
Didn't notice that. Was that in 1927? God that's annoying.

*rages*
Near the end, on the rooftop, when he was explaining why he was leaving Angelo. "... Time itself changed me to a fixed point." 31612


Regarding Gwen not having any options, remember, they were in her EYES. All she could do was hope Esther and Rex would get suspicious.
They don't have sound, all she's got to do is not look at them when they're talking.

Matt G
August 26th, 2011, 03:16 AM
Didn't notice that.

Matt G, as off 1927, Jack would have only lived in WW2 once, the Empty Child incident, and I doubt he still had his uniform from that.





Nope. In "Captain Jack Harkness" It was at least implied that he picked up the "Jack Harkness" identity during a previous trip to WWII.

mjwalshe
August 26th, 2011, 11:44 AM
Near the end, on the rooftop, when he was explaining why he was leaving Angelo. "... Time itself changed me to a fixed point." 31612


They don't have sound, all she's got to do is not look at them when they're talking.

yes when saw the preview clip I assumed that Gwen was setting up the bad guys - interesting that Both of them finally admitted that they Loved each other.

mjwalshe
August 26th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Immortal Sins / Lets Kill Hitler cross-reference.

It just struck me that the Gould thingy was to disrupt Roosevelt to mess with WW2 is it just coincidence that this weekends Dr who is “lets Kill Hitler” set in 1930’s Berlin?

Admiral Mappalazarou
August 26th, 2011, 01:13 PM
I liked it.

It seems to be pointing towards the whole scorned lover trying to be with Jack by making everyone immortal type-thing, as Jack said they couldn't be in a relationship because Angelos would die and Jack would live forever. Also - The Trickster's Brigade! I do love DW references. They were behind the insect/parallel timeline in Turn Left!

Flyboy
August 30th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Btw, looked into it.

'New' style RAF uniform (inc the Great Coat) came about in 1924, so Jack could conceivably have picked one up from an airman he 'encountered' a year or so before...

LtColCarter
August 31st, 2011, 07:37 AM
Btw, looked into it.

'New' style RAF uniform (inc the Great Coat) came about in 1924, so Jack could conceivably have picked one up from an airman he 'encountered' a year or so before...

I want a RAF Great Coat!

Flyboy
August 31st, 2011, 12:05 PM
I want a RAF Great Coat!

Soon as I make Squadron Leader nothing will keep me away from Stores to sign one out! ;)

mathpiglet
August 31st, 2011, 04:42 PM
I want a RAF Great Coat!

My son has one (army/navy surplus store). He has dressed up as Captain Jack for a few Halloweens. It earned him many hugs at the train station.

thecolouryes
August 31st, 2011, 04:54 PM
My son has one (army/navy surplus store). He has dressed up as Captain Jack for a few Halloweens. It earned him many hugs at the train station.

Best costume ever! Also I'd like to say that I love your signature, I have something like it on a t-shirt :D

mathpiglet
August 31st, 2011, 05:21 PM
Thanks!