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rolfbjarne
May 10th, 2011, 03:23 PM
Why couldn't Destiny ftl to a nearby star without drones to recharge before doing the huge ftl travel to the other galaxy? The drones can't cover every single star in the galaxy, and since they do know where the command ships are, it should be a pretty safe course of action.

Actually you can see that the command ships only cover systems with gates when they show where the command ships are, so there are nearby stars without command ships. And not a blue giant, they can pick something a bit less drastic.

This little nuisance is my only complain about this episode though, I really loved it :D

Too bad this is it for now.

Shylodog
May 10th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Why couldn't Destiny ftl to a nearby star without drones to recharge before doing the huge ftl travel to the other galaxy? The drones can't cover every single star in the galaxy, and since they do know where the command ships are, it should be a pretty safe course of action.

Actually you can see that the command ships only cover systems with gates when they show where the command ships are, so there are nearby stars without command ships. And not a blue giant, they can pick something a bit less drastic.

This little nuisance is my only complain about this episode though, I really loved it :D

Too bad this is it for now.


Rush stated they wouldn't be able to pull that stunt again.

Keeper
May 10th, 2011, 04:56 PM
problem is, they HAD to pick something drastic. otherwise, command ships could potentially predict variables.

they didn't seem to have a map of command ships that i noticed - they got ambushed the first time, and had to move in carefully after that. they did state that the command ships could be blocking a lot of stars. also, they don't seem to have a map of the gate network as they can only pick up local gates at any given time - last map i remember was the crashed alien ship, on the planet rush was dumped on that time.

Vargarv
May 10th, 2011, 05:17 PM
they didn't seem to have a map of command ships that i noticed

Seriously, did you watch the episode? They showed the locations of all the command ships ¬¬

Keeper
May 10th, 2011, 05:20 PM
Seriously, did you watch the episode? They showed the locations of all the command ships ¬¬

gauntlet? no not yet actually. some reason i thought this was in blockade section, only just realised now that it's not. ahh well.

AVFan
May 10th, 2011, 06:29 PM
Why couldn't Destiny ftl to a nearby star without drones to recharge before doing the huge ftl travel to the other galaxy? The drones can't cover every single star in the galaxy, and since they do know where the command ships are, it should be a pretty safe course of action.

Actually you can see that the command ships only cover systems with gates when they show where the command ships are, so there are nearby stars without command ships. And not a blue giant, they can pick something a bit less drastic.

This little nuisance is my only complain about this episode though, I really loved it :D

Too bad this is it for now.
I guess they had enough command ships to cover both planets with gates on them and stars that Destiny can refuel from... I find that hard to believe considering the sheer amount of stars that there are in a galaxy, but I digress.

GoodSmeagol
May 10th, 2011, 07:02 PM
Rush explained this to Telford.
There is no information outside of the seed ship corridor and it could take years to find appropriate stars/planets without the forwarded information.

Quadhelix
May 10th, 2011, 07:16 PM
Rush explained this to Telford.
There is no information outside of the seed ship corridor and it could take years to find appropriate stars/planets without the forwarded information.
Planets, yes - planets that are likely to support edible life are probably very, very rare.

However, "Blockade" established that Destiny can, in principle, refuel from almost any star - they picked an O-class star that happened to be nearby. They didn't have to go hunting around for O-class stars that also had properties that made it useable as fuel source.

However, the vast majority of stars are the ones that Destiny seems to prefer - cool, low mass stars. In "Blockade," they note that Destiny refuels mainly from M and K class stars, which together make up about 88.5% of all main sequence stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification#Harvard_spectral_classification).

Thus, Destiny shouldn't have any trouble finding a useable star not being blockaded now that they can track the command ships.

GoodSmeagol
May 10th, 2011, 07:23 PM
Planets, yes - planets that are likely to support edible life are probably very, very rare.

However, "Blockade" established that Destiny can, in principle, refuel from almost any star - they picked an O-class star that happened to be nearby. They didn't have to go hunting around for O-class stars that also had properties that made it useable as fuel source.

However, the vast majority of stars are the ones that Destiny seems to prefer - cool, low mass stars. In "Blockade," they note that Destiny refuels mainly from M and K class stars, which together make up about 88.5% of all main sequence stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification#Harvard_spectral_classification).

Thus, Destiny shouldn't have any trouble finding a useable star not being blockaded now that they can track the command ships.

fair enough

They could have used their shuttle trick to recharge in a sun, imo woulda been a better pick.

And.... why the heck would you mine a mineral, 'preferably on a planet with a lot of meteorite activity'
Why not goto the asteroid belt it self and mine from there.....

morbosfist
May 10th, 2011, 07:43 PM
It's a lot harder to mine from an asteroid belt. Those things are much bigger and moving. It would be even harder to get the needed supplies. Meteors have been stripped down from reentry, so the needed materials would be exposed and easier to collect.

GoodSmeagol
May 10th, 2011, 07:48 PM
It's a lot harder to mine from an asteroid belt. Those things are much bigger and moving. It would be even harder to get the needed supplies. Meteors have been stripped down from reentry, so the needed materials would be exposed and easier to collect.

I dunno bout that, see any big boulders of meteors on the moon?
Not like they are landing on a pillow, meteors get buried/pulverized...
Asteroids in a belt would move pretty predictably, pick one up in the back of a shuttle?
Not all asteroids are big... And destiny has sensors that could prob find the right signature to know ones to pick up.
Asteroids in a belt are not close to one another, they are hundreds if not thousands of miles apart.

morbosfist
May 10th, 2011, 07:55 PM
I dunno bout that, see any big boulders of meteors on the moon?
Not like they are landing on a pillow, meteors get buried/pulverized...
Asteroids in a belt would move pretty predictably, pick one up in the back of a shuttle?
Not all asteroids are big... And destiny has sensors that could prob find the right signature to know ones to pick up.
Asteroids in a belt are not close to one another, they are hundreds if not thousands of miles apart.Closeness isn't an issue. Size and composition is. In order to get a large supply, enough to repair the pods at any rate, they needed enough to fill an entire Kino sled. Now, they go to a planet to do this, they can just grab the right rocks and go. They go to asteroids, they have to find ones small enough to fit in the back, find ones of that type that have the necessary materials, find enough of those ones to meet their quote, break them all apart to get it, and then finally do whatever refinement process is necessary to make working parts out of it. All that in the limited time allowed not to ruin their stasis plan.

qingdom
May 10th, 2011, 08:02 PM
One last recharge could have been possible. The command ship was destroyed. They could have sync'd the inactive drones back up like how they played the role of the mama ship when they first encountered them.

Kamikaze runs will only benefit Destiny. All they need is to get close to the star, recharge, send subspace updates to drones to kill off command ship, FTL then say byebye.

Question becomes, how many drones were floating around and not attached to the original command ship ... hopefully enough to allow this possibility to work.. but it wasn't mentioned.

garhkal
May 10th, 2011, 08:19 PM
fair enough

They could have used their shuttle trick to recharge in a sun, imo woulda been a better pick.

And.... why the heck would you mine a mineral, 'preferably on a planet with a lot of meteorite activity'
Why not goto the asteroid belt it self and mine from there.....

Cause its easier to mine when its planet side, than in an asteroid belt.


Question becomes, how many drones were floating around and not attached to the original command ship ... hopefully enough to allow this possibility to work.. but it wasn't mentioned.

I doubt they could have taken them over WHEN another command ship got into range.

captain Qball
May 11th, 2011, 12:46 AM
My question is: would one last recharge have any gain?

Wasn't it just last episode that the Destiny refueled? Inside an O class star which produced much more power than the normal recharging stars. Now we don't know exactly how much time passed between episodes, but it couldn't be too long.

I think the Destiny was pretty much topped up on power, and even with all that power would only go so far as they could. Going into another Star now wouldn't give them more power, they would need the power halfway or beyond in the FTL travel, which of course they can't do.

KEK
May 11th, 2011, 03:10 AM
gauntlet? no not yet actually. some reason i thought this was in blockade section, only just realised now that it's not. ahh well.

You could have really used a map...


d'dum tss

GoodSmeagol
May 11th, 2011, 08:24 AM
Closeness isn't an issue. Size and composition is. In order to get a large supply, enough to repair the pods at any rate, they needed enough to fill an entire Kino sled. Now, they go to a planet to do this, they can just grab the right rocks and go. They go to asteroids, they have to find ones small enough to fit in the back, find ones of that type that have the necessary materials, find enough of those ones to meet their quote, break them all apart to get it, and then finally do whatever refinement process is necessary to make working parts out of it. All that in the limited time allowed not to ruin their stasis plan.

But see... my plan involved using their shuttle trick to recharge one last time.
Extending the life of their pod idea.
How many rocks on earth are pure in their elements?
Do you find just rocks of iron? Or do you find iron ore which needs to be refined?
'Grab the right rocks and go' works just as well as "load up the back of the shuttle with a mid size rock and break it up"
Both in reality would take tools they did not have, so we must accept the ore was common place in those asteroids.


My question is: would one last recharge have any gain?

Wasn't it just last episode that the Destiny refueled? Inside an O class star which produced much more power than the normal recharging stars. Now we don't know exactly how much time passed between episodes, but it couldn't be too long.

I think the Destiny was pretty much topped up on power, and even with all that power would only go so far as they could. Going into another Star now wouldn't give them more power, they would need the power halfway or beyond in the FTL travel, which of course they can't do.
Thats a good point, I assume after that battle, and their rush to get into extended ftl they were at least lower on power reserves.

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 08:55 AM
But see... my plan involved using their shuttle trick to recharge one last time.
Extending the life of their pod idea.
How many rocks on earth are pure in their elements?
Do you find just rocks of iron? Or do you find iron ore which needs to be refined?
'Grab the right rocks and go' works just as well as "load up the back of the shuttle with a mid size rock and break it up"
Both in reality would take tools they did not have, so we must accept the ore was common place in those asteroids.The larger rock would not be wholly composed of a single necessary element. In fact, most of it would be garbage. On the planet, the rocks they find would be mostly the right composition. Less work and more gain.


Thats a good point, I assume after that battle, and their rush to get into extended ftl they were at least lower on power reserves.The problem wasn't power, but damage. The ship was bleeding energy due to the damage. Even at full charge, collecting asteroids would use up more power than just gating to a world that had the needed supplies already.

megablue
May 11th, 2011, 03:21 PM
They had 2 critical issues to resolve - gather rare mineral to fix the pods and think a way to solve insufficient power for long jump. Under their circumstances, they can only pick one to the most viable option.

Since they learned it isn't a good idea dial inside a star they can either gather the mineral to fix the pods or charge the ship for one last time before the long ftl trip.

Also, they cant pull the shuttle trick twice.

Kanten
May 11th, 2011, 03:26 PM
However, "Blockade" established that Destiny can, in principle, refuel from almost any star - they picked an O-class star that happened to be nearby. They didn't have to go hunting around for O-class stars that also had properties that made it useable as fuel source.

However, the vast majority of stars are the ones that Destiny seems to prefer - cool, low mass stars. In "Blockade," they note that Destiny refuels mainly from M and K class stars, which together make up about 88.5% of all main sequence stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification#Harvard_spectral_classification).

Thus, Destiny shouldn't have any trouble finding a useable star not being blockaded now that they can track the command ships.

One problem: Where is the crew going to go? They have three spacesuits and there's a command ship watching every gate. I doubt the stasis pods would offer the necessary protection and shuttles can only hold a little over a dozen.

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 03:47 PM
Destiny only knows where to find a proper Sun, because of the Seedships. Everything outside the Seedship corridor is unknown Territory and finding a Sun there before Destiny is out of Fuel can be a very difficult Situation.

As Rush said: "Our whole survival depending on making it to the next Gas station. Hollarious"

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 04:22 PM
Planets, yes - planets that are likely to support edible life are probably very, very rare.

However, "Blockade" established that Destiny can, in principle, refuel from almost any star - they picked an O-class star that happened to be nearby. They didn't have to go hunting around for O-class stars that also had properties that made it useable as fuel source.

However, the vast majority of stars are the ones that Destiny seems to prefer - cool, low mass stars. In "Blockade," they note that Destiny refuels mainly from M and K class stars, which together make up about 88.5% of all main sequence stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification#Harvard_spectral_classification).

Thus, Destiny shouldn't have any trouble finding a useable star not being blockaded now that they can track the command ships.

All Destiny had to do was stop at stars off the blockaded path that were along it's route around the edge of the galaxy. Finding an earth like planet may have been difficult but not a suitable star to refuel in. There are 300 million stars, plenty to refuel at as needed.

The supposed scarcity was a plot contrivance.

And why couldn't they put two people in one pod?

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 05:15 PM
All Destiny had to do was stop at stars off the blockaded path that were along it's route around the edge of the galaxy. Finding an earth like planet may have been difficult but not a suitable star to refuel in. There are 300 million stars plenty to refuel at as needed.

The supposed scarcity was a plot contrivance.

And why couldn't they put two people in one pod?

Destiny cannot detect Stars while in FTL.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 05:34 PM
Destiny cannot detect Stars while in FTL.

Where do you get that? How do they avoid running into them if they can't detect them?

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 05:36 PM
Where do you get that? How do they avoid running into them if they can't detect them?"Faith" shows that it can't. Destiny's path is mapped out by the seed ships. It doesn't hit anything because it already knows what's ahead.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 05:48 PM
"Faith" shows that it can't. Destiny's path is mapped out by the seed ships. It doesn't hit anything because it already knows what's ahead.

If they can detect Drones to the edge of the galaxy (when they are only a third of the way in) they certainly can detect stars in any direction they are traveling.

Nth Chevron
May 11th, 2011, 05:54 PM
If they can detect Drones to the edge of the galaxy (when they are only a third of the way in) they certainly can detect stars in any direction they are traveling.

That was keying the subspace frequency into the sensor array.

We have seen in Atlantis that her long range sensors cover a small section of the galaxy, where as if tuned to subspace frequencies, the galaxy is the limit.

N.C

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 06:00 PM
If they can detect Drones to the edge of the galaxy (when they are only a third of the way in) they certainly can detect stars in any direction they are traveling.Rush never said they absolutely could detect all the way out there. He said they pushed the sensors as far as they would go. He merely came to the conclusion that they were at every gate.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 06:05 PM
That was keying the subspace frequency into the sensor array.

We have seen in Atlantis that her long range sensors cover a small section of the galaxy, where as if tuned to subspace frequencies, the galaxy is the limit.

N.C

If an older seed ship had the sensor capacity to map and locate habitable worlds then Destiny certainly does as well.

Stars are really really big and radiate huge amounts of energy. Destiny isn't going to have any problem finding one off the blockade path to refuel in.

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 06:21 PM
They already tried going off the path once and the drones were there. It stands to reason the drones have considered that Destiny could go off the path, so they've blocked the nearby ones, too. Destiny would have to go a while out.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 06:21 PM
Rush never said they absolutely could detect all the way out there. He said they pushed the sensors as far as they would go. He merely came to the conclusion that they were at every gate.

What?

Rush said there were drone ships at every gate to the edge of the galaxy. Vis-a-vis Destiny's sensors must have been able to scan to the edge of the galaxy for him to make that statement.

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 06:25 PM
If an older seed ship had the sensor capacity to map and locate habitable worlds then Destiny certainly does as well.

Stars are really really big and radiate huge amounts of energy. Destiny isn't going to have any problem finding one off the blockade path to refuel in.

That is not Destinys purpose. Destiny is one piece of a whole, Destiny should collect the Data for the Background Radiation Mystery and the Seedships should show the way. It could only detect the command ships because they tuned into the frequency they use to communicate. Suns dont send out more then Radiation and if Destiny could detect that, it wouldnt have ended up stuck between those 2 planets in the Season 1 Finale.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 06:37 PM
They already tried going off the path once and the drones were there. It stands to reason the drones have considered that Destiny could go off the path, so they've blocked the nearby ones, too. Destiny would have to go a while out.

The galaxy has 300 million stars of which 88.5% are suitable to refuel in (according to Quadhelix). All Destiny needs to do is stop at one. The Drones can't track Destiny while in FTL. How many stars do you think the Drones could possibly blockade off the path? Besides, the problem is really moot now that Destiny has the capability to track the Drones. the ship need only to go to a star that isn't being blockaded.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 06:47 PM
That is not Destinys purpose. Destiny is one piece of a whole, Destiny should collect the Data for the Background Radiation Mystery and the Seedships should show the way. It could only detect the command ships because they tuned into the frequency they use to communicate. Suns dont send out more then Radiation and if Destiny could detect that, it wouldnt have ended up stuck between those 2 planets in the Season 1 Finale.

Destiny's purpose is not relevant. I am only pointing out that their sensor capacity would be equal or greater than the older seed ships'. I can understand that it may take more time than they have supplies for to find an earth like habitable world. I don't think that would be the case for a suitable star to refuel in. Besides, Destiny could easily be programmed to search for one while the crew remains in stasis. It only needs to find one in three years. Although it would be far safer to refuel as soon as possible and continue to do so once reserves drop below say 50% of capacity.

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 06:51 PM
Destiny's purpose is not relevant. I am only pointing out that their sensor capacity would be equal or greater than the older seed ships'. I can understand that it may take more time than they have supplies for to find an earth like habitable world. I don't think that would be the case for a suitable star to refuel in. Besides, Destiny could easily be programmed to search for one while the crew remains in stasis. It only needs to find one in three years. Although it would be far safer to refuel as soon as possible and continue to do so once reserves drop below say 50% of capacity.

Destiny at least would need to jump in and out of FTL just to do that. What if they run out of Fuel before finding a suitable Sun?

Destinys purpose is relevant, because that is what it is equiped for. Why should the Ancients install Systems in Destiny that are completly out of its usefulness.

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 06:55 PM
The galaxy has 300 million stars of which 88.5% are suitable to refuel in (according to Quadhelix). All Destiny needs to do is stop at one. The Drones can't track Destiny while in FTL. How many stars do you think the Drones could possibly blockade off the path? Besides, the problem is really moot now that Destiny has the capability to track the Drones. the ship need only to go to a star that isn't being blockaded.Refueling doesn't help if you have no way to gather supplies. Even assuming they could, they'd have to go pretty far out. It'd defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place, especially since damage control didn't seem to be an option.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 07:02 PM
Destiny at least would need to jump in and out of FTL just to do that. What if they run out of Fuel before finding a suitable Sun?

88.5% of 300 million stars would be suitable. With just under 267 million available, finding one isn't going to be much of a problem. Besides, they have sufficient energy for a 3 year FTL jump. Spending time and reserves to refuel makes far more sense than gambling that they can make it all the way on their current reserves.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 07:08 PM
Refueling doesn't help if you have no way to gather supplies. Even assuming they could, they'd have to go pretty far out. It'd defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place, especially since damage control didn't seem to be an option.

As I have already mentioned, the crew is in stasis, supplies are unnecessary and the ship is capable of automated repairs. If the damage was such that it was beyond the ship's automated capacity, then the crew should have taken a month to fix everything before going into stasis so the ship could refuel along the way.

Again, the scarcity and sense of urgency was a plot contrivance.

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 07:13 PM
As I have already mentioned, the crew is in stasis, supplies are unnecessary and the ship is capable of automated repairs. If the damage was such that it was beyond the ship's automated capacity, then the crew should have taken a month to fix everything before going into stasis so the ship could refuel along the way.

Again, the scarcity and sense of urgency was a plot contrivance.The crew doesn't have any parts to do repairs with. They make a point of noting it. That rules out waiting. In order to have the ship go find some star to refuel, you'd have to program it to monitor and avoid all the drones, veer wildly off course searching for a star, then get back on course. With no crew, it has no way to adapt to the drones, so once they figured out they were being fooled, they'd get Destiny. Scarcity and urgency were a genuine problem.

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 07:15 PM
88.5% of 300 million stars would be suitable. With just under 267 million available, finding one isn't going to be much of a problem. Besides, they have sufficient energy for a 3 year FTL jump. Spending time and reserves to refuel makes far more sense than gambling that they can make it all the way on their current reserves.

There is a difference between starting an Engine and keeping it going. They never lasted that long before because of the dropouts of FTL. The more Eli jumps in and out, the more he would waste Fuel, not to mention what would happen if the Destiny jumps out near some Drones.

Also, if Eli manages to get more Energy what then? He could technically grow food, but he cant grow Water. The problem wasnt Energy at all, they just couldnt have survived in unknown space without proper Water recycling at least.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 07:27 PM
The crew doesn't have any parts to do repairs with. They make a point of noting it. That rules out waiting. In order to have the ship go find some star to refuel, you'd have to program it to monitor and avoid all the drones, veer wildly off course searching for a star, then get back on course. With no crew, it has no way to adapt to the drones, so once they figured out they were being fooled, they'd get Destiny. Scarcity and urgency were a genuine problem.

What do you mean they don't have parts for repairs? What are they going to do when they arrive at their destination nearly powerless if they can't fix anything?

The whole reason for the urgency was their assumption that there was no way to refuel along the way which I have already explained is baseless and a plot contrivance given the rules of the stargate universe.

And I have already explained, the Drones aren't going to be a problem off the path due to the sheer number of stars they would be forced to blockade and the simple fact that Destiny can now track them.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 07:34 PM
There is a difference between starting an Engine and keeping it going. They never lasted that long before because of the dropouts of FTL. The more Eli jumps in and out, the more he would waste Fuel, not to mention what would happen if the Destiny jumps out near some Drones.

Also, if Eli manages to get more Energy what then? He could technically grow food, but he cant grow Water. The problem wasnt Energy at all, they just couldnt have survived in unknown space without proper Water recycling at least.

I don't know how I can make what I am saying any more clear. The crew will be in stasis so supplies are unnecessary and once the ship refuels the safety margin for the trip rises considerably as it now has 100% reserves to complete the trip with.

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 07:50 PM
I don't know how I can make what I am saying any more clear. The crew will be in stasis so supplies are unnecessary and once the ship refuels the safety margin for the trip rises considerably as it now has 100% reserves to complete the trip with.

The problem is risking it! If Destiny is not able to recharge, it would have blown its only chance to get to save territory, which I still think might not be save after all.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 07:57 PM
The problem is risking it! If Destiny is not able to recharge, it would have blown its only chance to get to save territory, which I still think might not be save after all.

Risk what? Are you suggesting it is a safer bet to risk going all the way to their destination with less than a 1/10th of one percent safety margin in energy reserves than expending the energy to find and refuel at one of millions of suitable (88.5%) stars along the way that would bring Destiny's power reserves to 100%?

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 08:03 PM
What do you mean they don't have parts for repairs? What are they going to do when they arrive at their destination nearly powerless if they can't fix anything?The ship can still fly. All they have to do is recharge when they get there.


The whole reason for the urgency was their assumption that there was no way to refuel along the way which I have already explained is baseless and a plot contrivance given the rules of the stargate universe.There is no way to refuel. They can't stop at the stars along Destiny's course, because all those are blockaded. They can't change course mid-flight without waking up, because only Chloe knows how. They can't get resources because every gate is blocked, and time spent awake is time wasting resources.


And I have already explained, the Drones aren't going to be a problem off the path due to the sheer number of stars they would be forced to blockade and the simple fact that Destiny can now track them.If Destiny can't find more stars easily, which it obviously can't since the first time it tried it failed, then it doesn't matter. There's obviously a ridiculous amount of drones, more than enough to guard every star on or near Destiny's current course. They'd have to go way off the path to recharge, prohibitively so I would imagine.

Blackhole
May 11th, 2011, 08:18 PM
The ship can still fly. All they have to do is recharge when they get there.


As I have been saying repeatedly, there is no reason to wait especially when the trip has a power safety margin of less than 1/10th of one percent.


There is no way to refuel. They can't stop at the stars along Destiny's course, because all those are blockaded. They can't change course mid-flight without waking up, because only Chloe knows how. They can't get resources because every gate is blocked, and time spent awake is time wasting resources.


What? There are millions of suitable stars along the way to refuel at. The only stars blockaded are the ones on Destiny's original path. Destiny's computer is more than capable of refueling without the crew's guidance. It has been doing so for a million years.


If Destiny can't find more stars easily, which it obviously can't since the first time it tried it failed, then it doesn't matter. There's obviously a ridiculous amount of drones, more than enough to guard every star on or near Destiny's current course. They'd have to go way off the path to recharge, prohibitively so I would imagine.

I completely disagree, Destiny can find stars easily. I don't know what you are talking about. There are only drones along Destiny's original course. The ships long range sensors already clearly demonstrated this. That is the reason for Eli's new 3 year course to do an "end run" around them.

morbosfist
May 11th, 2011, 08:46 PM
As I have been saying repeatedly, there is no reason to wait especially when the trip has a power safety margin of less than 1/10th of one percent.The 1/10th of a percent refers to the distance, and Rush was being dramatic. The actual margin for error is never stated, but enough that both Eli and Chloe were confident that it would probably work.


What? There are millions of suitable stars along the way to refuel at. The only stars blockaded are the ones on Destiny's original path. Destiny's computer is more than capable of refueling without the crew's guidance. It has been doing so for a million years.Yet the first thing they try is picking a star that isn't on the path. Guess what? Blockaded. Are you just not remembering that episode? Destiny is not going to wildly veer off course to find a star. It's going to do what it's programmed to do: stop at a star along the path. That's going to get the ship destroyed. To keep Destiny from blowing itself up, the crew would have to be awake.


I completely disagree, Destiny can find stars easily. I don't know what you are talking about. There are only drones along Destiny's original course. The ships long range sensors already clearly demonstrated this. That is the reason for Eli's new 3 year course to do an "end run" around them.And their original course is the only course they have. Eli puts it thusly: "Out and around the length of this galaxy". Which is kind of an odd saying, but obviously his point is that they keep going and never stop.

The ship's long range sensors do not stretch the entire length of the galaxy. Rush and Eli weren't even sure that the drones were at every single gate, they only drew the conclusion from the fact that all the gates they could see were blocked. Without someone to input new course corrections every time, Destiny defaults to its normal course, right through death lane.

tomstone
May 11th, 2011, 08:55 PM
The 1/10th of a percent refers to the distance, and Rush was being dramatic. The actual margin for error is never stated, but enough that both Eli and Chloe were confident that it would probably work.

Yet the first thing they try is picking a star that isn't on the path. Guess what? Blockaded. Are you just not remembering that episode? Destiny is not going to wildly veer off course to find a star. It's going to do what it's programmed to do: stop at a star along the path. That's going to get the ship destroyed. To keep Destiny from blowing itself up, the crew would have to be awake.

And their original course is the only course they have. Eli puts it thusly: "Out and around the length of this galaxy". Which is kind of an odd saying, but obviously his point is that they keep going and never stop.

The ship's long range sensors do not stretch the entire length of the galaxy. Rush and Eli weren't even sure that the drones were at every single gate, they only drew the conclusion from the fact that all the gates they could see were blocked. Without someone to input new course corrections every time, Destiny defaults to its normal course, right through death lane.

Give it up, its like religous believe. If you believe hard enough it makes it true, so nothing and noone can convince him otherwise.

megablue
May 11th, 2011, 10:39 PM
They had 2 critical issues to resolve - gather rare mineral to fix the pods and think a way to solve insufficient power for long jump. Under their circumstances, they can only pick one to the most viable option.

Since they learned it isn't a good idea dial inside a star they can either gather the mineral to fix the pods or charge the ship for one last time before the long ftl trip.

Also, they cant pull the shuttle trick twice.

garhkal
May 12th, 2011, 04:40 PM
Especially since the first one Cost us a shuttle.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 03:44 PM
The 1/10th of a percent refers to the distance, and Rush was being dramatic. The actual margin for error is never stated, but enough that both Eli and Chloe were confident that it would probably work.

No, the 1/10th of a percent clearly refers to the power required to make the trip. And Rush was not being dramatic. He didn’t like the plan but couldn’t come up with anything better. See the pertinent portion of the transcript below.

RUSH: What Eli is neglecting to mention is that a jump like this is gonna require every last ounce of power we have, and if his calculations are off ...

WALLACE: They're not.

RUSH: ... and we fall short even by a fraction, a tenth of one percent ...

WALLACE: We won't.

RUSH: ... then we're gonna drift the rest of the way and instead of three years, it'll take a thousand.

(Young's head snaps around to look at him.)

RUSH: Or more.

(Young turns to look at Eli again.)

YOUNG: I assume you were gonna get to that part.

WALLACE: Look, I've run the numbers. This could work. But we have to do it soon. We're bleeding power from a dozen systems and we can't risk dropping out to recharge.

RUSH: There are too many things that could go wrong. We have to find another way.

(Young steps down from the pod and paces for a moment before turning back.)

YOUNG: All right. Uh, how long would it take you to prep the rest of these pods?

WALLACE: Uh, a day, maybe.

YOUNG: Get to work.

(Eli looks at him proudly for a moment, then turns and trots away.)

RUSH: Colonel ...

YOUNG: You've got twenty-four hours to come up with a better idea.

(He walks out of the room.)


Yet the first thing they try is picking a star that isn't on the path. Guess what? Blockaded. Are you just not remembering that episode? Destiny is not going to wildly veer off course to find a star. It's going to do what it's programmed to do: stop at a star along the path. That's going to get the ship destroyed. To keep Destiny from blowing itself up, the crew would have to be awake.

When did they pick a star off the path? We don't know that the Blue Giant star was off the path only that it was a star that Destiny would never consider refueling at that was why it wasn't blockaded.

We don't know what course Destiny's computer would have chosen if left to it's own. We do know that the computer came out of FTL on the backside of a gas giant to give the ship time to use up the three hour period required before FTL can be reinitialized without damage. Volker's statement clearly indicates that this was atypical behavior and to my reckoning indicates the ship's AI had a grasp of the Drone problem.


And their original course is the only course they have. Eli puts it thusly: "Out and around the length of this galaxy". Which is kind of an odd saying, but obviously his point is that they keep going and never stop.


The original course was the seeder route. The "out and around the edge of the galaxy" is the new route Eli proposed to do an end run around the blockaded gates. from your statement I don't think you remember/understood what was said in the episode.


The ship's long range sensors do not stretch the entire length of the galaxy. Rush and Eli weren't even sure that the drones were at every single gate, they only drew the conclusion from the fact that all the gates they could see were blocked. Without someone to input new course corrections every time, Destiny defaults to its normal course, right through death lane.

That is not what the transcript suggests:

CONTROL INTERFACE ROOM. As Young and Camille walk into the room, Eli Wallace turns to them.

WALLACE: We did it.

YOUNG: Fantastic!

WRAY: What'd they do?

YOUNG: I have no idea.

WALLACE: We found a way to track the command ships that control the drones.

WRAY: How?

RUSH: We managed to isolate the sub-space signals they use to communicate with each other.

WALLACE: Then we plugged the data into Destiny's long-range sensors, and it worked.

WRAY: So we know where they are. Then we can avoid them and find safe planets to re-supply.

WALLACE (his face unhappy): That was the idea, anyway.

YOUNG: Let's see it.

(Eli types on his console and the holographic screen comes up, showing a graphic of the route which Destiny is taking.)

WALLACE: This is the path that the seed ships plotted for us through this galaxy.

(He types again and some of the approaching stars are marked with blue flags.)

WALLACE: These are the upcoming Gates ...

(With a resigned expression, he hits one more key on his console.)

WALLACE: ... and these are the command ships.

(Each of the flags indicating a Stargate is overlaid with a red flag.)

WRAY: Oh my God.

RUSH: Look, we've pushed this as far as sensor capability will allow, and the results are the same. As far as we can tell, they're waiting at every Gate between here and the edge of the galaxy.

WALLACE: We're screwed.

I think you really need to rewatch the episode and study the transcript.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Give it up, its like religous believe. If you believe hard enough it makes it true, so nothing and noone can convince him otherwise.

If by "religious" you are suggesting my facts are unsubstantiated then I think you should look again.

From my debating experience, when one party resorts to a personal attack it is usually an indication they can’t logically support their position with facts. The attack is a diversion and poor attempt to prevail by attempting to discredit the other person.

tomstone
May 13th, 2011, 04:26 PM
If by "religious" you are suggesting my facts are unsubstantiated then I think you should look again.

From my debating experience, when one party resorts to a personal attack it is usually an indication they can’t logically support their position with facts. The attack is a diversion and poor attempt to prevail by attempting to discredit the other person.

I meant there is no way to bring you away from what you believe, thats what made me compare it to religion.

morbosfist
May 13th, 2011, 04:52 PM
No, the 1/10th of a percent clearly refers to the power required to make the trip. And Rush was not being dramatic. He didn’t like the plan but couldn’t come up with anything better. See the pertinent portion of the transcript below.That doesn't prove your point. In fact it contradicts it. "Fall short" is a term of distance, as it was used in "Sabotage" in the exact same context. Rush is referring to the distance, not Eli's margin of error for power requirements.


When did they pick a star off the path? We don't know that the Blue Giant star was off the path only that it was a star that Destiny would never consider refueling at that was why it wasn't blockaded.

We don't know what course Destiny's computer would have chosen if left to it's own. We do know that the computer came out of FTL on the backside of a gas giant to give the ship time to use up the three hour period required before FTL can be reinitialized without damage. Volker's statement clearly indicates that this was atypical behavior and to my reckoning indicates the ship's AI had a grasp of the Drone problem.It's literally the first thing Rush does when the drones block the first star they tried. "We've no option but to recharge, so we go off the path." There's even a handy little course projection on the screen showing exactly where Destiny would go. If Destiny knew about the drone problem, it wouldn't stop somewhere it would obviously get destroyed. It was a fluke.


The original course was the seeder route. The "out and around the edge of the galaxy" is the new route Eli proposed to do an end run around the blockaded gates. from your statement I don't think you remember/understood what was said in the episode."Out and around the length of this galaxy" is the quote. I remember it fine. You seem to be confused.


I think you really need to rewatch the episode and study the transcript."As far as we can tell." You're not paying attention, just quoting large blocks. They cannot scan to the edge. Rush's comment is indicating that they are drawing a conclusion. It isn't an absolute certainty, otherwise he wouldn't have said that.

garhkal
May 13th, 2011, 05:00 PM
I wonder.. could they have just reversed course??

morbosfist
May 13th, 2011, 05:01 PM
I wonder.. could they have just reversed course??The drones probably thought of that.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 05:02 PM
I meant there is no way to bring you away from what you believe, thats what made me compare it to religion.

That is because no facts have been presented to counter my arguments. There is no reason Destiny can't refuel along the way to the other galaxy. 88.5% of the millions of stars along the way are suitable for refuel. To risk the trip with a 1/10th of one percent power safety margin is insane.

My entire point is that the implied scarcity of stars along the way is a plot contrivance to create a sense of dramatic urgency. Given the rules of the Stargate universe that have existed so far, it is baseless.

tomstone
May 13th, 2011, 05:19 PM
That is because no facts have been presented to counter my arguments. There is no reason Destiny can't refuel along the way to the other galaxy. 88.5% of the millions of stars along the way are suitable for refuel. To risk the trip with a 1/10th of one percent power safety margin is insane.

My entire point is that the implied scarcity of stars along the way is a plot contrivance to create a sense of dramatic urgency. Given the rules of the Stargate universe that have existed so far, it is baseless.

Destiny cannot find Starsystems that easily! It knows its path thanks to the Seedships, out and about Destiny has NOTHING! It cannot and will never be able to Scan planets Millions of Lightyears away and it surely cant do so while in FTL. The only option is dropping out now and then and that would risk everyones lifes if power runs out. Rush knew exactly that it would carry to much risk and therefore agreed to the Pod solution. They went into the blue star because they guessed that the it would be out of the Drones search pattern and luckily guessed right. It was already in Destinys Databanks because it was right on Destinys path, just not suitable for recharge.

From where do you get your 88.5% anyways?

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 05:42 PM
That doesn't prove your point. In fact it contradicts it. "Fall short" is a term of distance, as it was used in "Sabotage" in the exact same context. Rush is referring to the distance, not Eli's margin of error for power requirements.

You are arguing nits and you know it. Whether the statement: "if Eli's calculations are off" refers to the distance they have to travel or the power required to traverse that distance is irrelevant. The point of the exchange is that the margin of safety to successfully arrive at the destination is extremely small and the consequence for failure very dire.


It's literally the first thing Rush does when the drones block the first star they tried. "We've no option but to recharge, so we go off the path." There's even a handy little course projection on the screen showing exactly where Destiny would go. If Destiny knew about the drone problem, it wouldn't stop somewhere it would obviously get destroyed. It was a fluke.

"Out and around the length of this galaxy" is the quote. I remember it fine. You seem to be confused.


Again you are arguing nits or you don't understand the dimensions of a galaxy. Even if the stars were off the path they weren't off by much. Eli's proposed course is to the outside of the galaxy and then around the edge to a point of proximity to the next galaxy and then across the void to it. Our galaxy has 100 billion stars the one Destiny is currently in 300 billion. Our galaxy is 100 thousand light-years across. Destiny's galaxy is therefore likely to be far larger.

The distance to the edge of the galaxy from the seeder ship's path could be hundreds of thousands of light-years. The number of stars Destiny will pass on its route to the edge of the galaxy could be in the hundreds of millions. To suggest the Drones will be able to blockade all those stars is ridiculous. And to suggest Destiny can not or should not refuel along the way is even more ridiculous.


"As far as we can tell." You're not paying attention, just quoting large blocks. They cannot scan to the edge. Rush's comment is indicating that they are drawing a conclusion. It isn't an absolute certainty, otherwise he wouldn't have said that.

Again nits. Whether Rush's statement is an estimation or certainty is irrelevant. The point being made is the gates and stars along the seeder ship's path are likely blockaded. Vis a vis the necessity for Eli's new bypass course to the next galaxy.

tomstone
May 13th, 2011, 05:51 PM
You are arguing nits and you know it. Whether the statement: "if Eli's calculations are off" refers to the distance they have to travel or the power required to traverse that distance is irrelevant. The point of the exchange is that the margin of safety to successfully arrive at the destination is extremely small and the consequence for failure very dire.



Again you are arguing nits or you don't understand the dimensions of a galaxy. Even if the stars were off the path they weren't off by much. Eli's proposed course is to the outside of the galaxy and then around the edge to a point of proximity to the next galaxy and then across the void to it. Our galaxy has 100 billion stars the one Destiny is currently in 300 billion. Our galaxy is 100 thousand light-years across. Destiny's galaxy is therefore likely to be far larger.

The distance to the edge of the galaxy from the seeder ship's path could be hundreds of thousands of light-years. The number of stars Destiny will pass on its route to the edge of the galaxy could be in the hundreds of millions. To suggest the Drones will be able to blockade all those stars is ridiculous. And to suggest Destiny can not or should not refuel along the way is even more ridiculous.



Again nits. Whether Rush's statement is an estimation or certainty is irrelevant. The point being made is the gates and stars along the seeder ship's path are likely blockaded. Vis a vis the necessity for Eli's new bypass course to the next galaxy.

How is Destiny supposed to know that it is just passing a suitable Sun?

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Destiny cannot find Starsystems that easily! It knows its path thanks to the Seedships, out and about Destiny has NOTHING! It cannot and will never be able to Scan planets Millions of Lightyears away and it surely cant do so while in FTL. The only option is dropping out now and then and that would risk everyones lifes if power runs out. Rush knew exactly that it would carry to much risk and therefore agreed to the Pod solution. They went into the blue star because they guessed that the it would be out of the Drones search pattern and luckily guessed right. It was already in Destinys Databanks because it was right on Destinys path, just not suitable for recharge.

From where do you get your 88.5% anyways?

If Destiny doesn't have the sensor capacity to find star systems how is suppose to navigate to the edge of the galaxy and then around and to the next galaxy?

Maybe the problem is you don't have a basic understanding of astronomy? Destiny will pass millions of star systems along its course to the next galaxy. 88.5% of them have stars that Destiny can easily refuel in.

88.5% came from Quadhellix in an earlier post in this thread.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 06:02 PM
How is Destiny supposed to know that it is just passing a suitable Sun?

The same way it has been for a million years - with its sensors.

tomstone
May 13th, 2011, 06:06 PM
If Destiny doesn't have the sensor capacity to find star systems how is suppose to navigate to the edge of the galaxy and then around and to the next galaxy?

Maybe the problem is you don't have a basic understanding of astronomy? Destiny will pass millions of star systems along its course to the next galaxy. 88.5% of them have stars that Destiny can easily refuel in.

88.5% came from Quadhellix in an earlier post in this thread.

I know enough about astronomy, but we should go by the Info we get in the Episodes and not real facts. If this Plan was worth persuing, and as easy to do as you say, then why didnt they mention even a tiny bit of it? It sure would have been useful to think of before everyone says goodbye and jumps in their Pods for 3 - 1000 Years.


The same way it has been for a million years - with its sensors.

With the Data of the Seedships, Destiny ran right into the faith Planet. Some nice Sensors Destiny got there.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 06:15 PM
I know enough about astronomy, but we should go by the Info we get in the Episodes and not real facts. If this Plan was worth persuing, and as easy to do as you say, then why didnt they mention even a tiny bit of it? It sure would have been useful to think of before everyone says goodbye and jumps in their Pods for 3 - 1000 Years.

With the Data of the Seedships, Destiny ran right into the faith Planet. Some nice Sensors Destiny got there.

As I have said several times - My entire point is that the implied scarcity of stars along the way is a plot contrivance to create a sense of dramatic urgency for the episode. Given the rules of the Stargate universe that have existed so far, it is baseless. Destiny should be able to locate and refuel in any one of the millions of suitable stars along the way of its 3 year FTL course to the next galaxy.

morbosfist
May 13th, 2011, 06:27 PM
You are arguing nits and you know it. Whether the statement: "if Eli's calculations are off" refers to the distance they have to travel or the power required to traverse that distance is irrelevant. The point of the exchange is that the margin of safety to successfully arrive at the destination is extremely small and the consequence for failure very dire.Nevertheless, Eli's margin of error isn't so small as you claim, and was independently verified to be worth it.


Again you are arguing nits or you don't understand the dimensions of a galaxy. Even if the stars were off the path they weren't off by much. Eli's proposed course is to the outside of the galaxy and then around the edge to a point of proximity to the next galaxy and then across the void to it. Our galaxy has 100 billion stars the one Destiny is currently in 300 billion. Our galaxy is 100 thousand light-years across. Destiny's galaxy is therefore likely to be far larger.

The distance to the edge of the galaxy from the seeder ship's path could be hundreds of thousands of light-years. The number of stars Destiny will pass on its route to the edge of the galaxy could be in the hundreds of millions. To suggest the Drones will be able to blockade all those stars is ridiculous. And to suggest Destiny can not or should not refuel along the way is even more ridiculous. Point is they were off the path and still guarded. The drones obviously have a wide net. Destiny can only go on its preset path. "Faith" demonstrated this. It can't scan the entire galaxy, and they certainly can't just fly in a random direction. They'd hit something.

If there are enough drones to guard every gate, then that means there are massive amounts of drones who can and must have the ability to build more of themselves. Depending on how old these things are, there very well could be enough to guard every viable star on and near the path. Destiny can't (and won't under autopilot) go very far off its intended course, so getting around them just isn't an option.


Again nits. Whether Rush's statement is an estimation or certainty is irrelevant. The point being made is the gates and stars along the seeder ship's path are likely blockaded. Vis a vis the necessity for Eli's new bypass course to the next galaxy.And the ones off the path proved to be blockaded. Even assuming they could find a usable star, they'd have to go way off course to do it. They can't gather food or water in their current state, so they'd run out doing this. And depending on how far they go, that's more power wasted, possibly as much as they used up just doing it in the first place.

You're stuck on this idea that they can just find some star and recharge, when it's made pretty clear that Destiny has a path to follow and straying from it doesn't work that well. It doesn't matter how many stars are out there. Getting to them is the problem.

Shylodog
May 13th, 2011, 06:43 PM
Even IF they found another star not blockaded by the drones, it's likely it would have to be a star that they'd have to send the crew off the ship for again. That's why the drone data in relation to the gates is so important. They can't gate off the ship.

The power issue is not the point anyway. The problem that Destiny is facing is that they are running out of food. They cannot gate off to get food, so they needed to bypass the drone domain to get somewhere that they could get food. The power issue became a problem because they needed to implement the end-run around the drones.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 06:58 PM
Nevertheless, Eli's margin of error isn't so small as you claim, and was independently verified to be worth it.

It is pointless to debate with you when you completely ignore what was clearly said in the transcript.


Point is they were off the path and still guarded. The drones obviously have a wide net. Destiny can only go on its preset path. "Faith" demonstrated this. It can't scan the entire galaxy, and they certainly can't just fly in a random direction. They'd hit something.

Your replies are now just plain silly. That is not the point. If Destiny can only go on a preset path then how is it going to follow Eli's new galaxy course? And why would Destiny need to scan an entire galaxy? I have made it clear it just needs to scan the stars it passes along Eli's new course.


If there are enough drones to guard every gate, then that means there are massive amounts of drones who can and must have the ability to build more of themselves. Depending on how old these things are, there very well could be enough to guard every viable star on and near the path. Destiny can't (and won't under autopilot) go very far off its intended course, so getting around them just isn't an option.

Again your reply is just plain silly. If the Drones have the nearly infinite numbers to guard every star in the current galaxy then they can easily guard every star in the next galaxy. If that is the case, then Destiny is doomed wherever it goes and it is pointless to do anything.



And the ones off the path proved to be blockaded. Even assuming they could find a usable star, they'd have to go way off course to do it. They can't gather food or water in their current state, so they'd run out doing this. And depending on how far they go, that's more power wasted, possibly as much as they used up just doing it in the first place.

Again your reply is just plain silly. I have made it clear that there is is absolutely no reason they would ever have to go off course. There will be millions of suitable stars they will pass along their 3 year course, anyone of which they could easily stop at to refuel.


You're stuck on this idea that they can just find some star and recharge, when it's made pretty clear that Destiny has a path to follow and straying from it doesn't work that well. It doesn't matter how many stars are out there. Getting to them is the problem.

Again, another silly reply. There is no problem finding anyone of millions of suitable stars along their path.

It is very very simple. Eli programs Destiny's new course and instructs the ship to as needed, refuel at any suitable star along the way. Period. End of discussion.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 07:05 PM
Even IF they found another star not blockaded by the drones, it's likely it would have to be a star that they'd have to send the crew off the ship for again. That's why the drone data in relation to the gates is so important. They can't gate off the ship.

The power issue is not the point anyway. The problem that Destiny is facing is that they are running out of food. They cannot gate off to get food, so they needed to bypass the drone domain to get somewhere that they could get food. The power issue became a problem because they needed to implement the end-run around the drones.

Why? If you have followed this thread, 88.5% of the stars they will encounter are suitable to refuel in and will not require the crew to disembark. The ship could easily be programed to refuel as needed at any suitable star along the way.

garhkal
May 13th, 2011, 07:11 PM
Nevertheless, Eli's margin of error isn't so small as you claim, and was independently verified to be worth it.


By whom?? The same people who said his math was solid for the dial home in a star??

As for the command ships.. They only seemed to be on planets that had gates on.. So why not hit a planet in between via using the shuttles to gather food.

morbosfist
May 13th, 2011, 07:19 PM
It is pointless to debate with you when you completely ignore what was clearly said in the transcript.Goes both ways. I can prove the context. You cannot.


Your replies are now just plain silly. That is not the point. If Destiny can only go on a preset path then how is it going to follow Eli's new galaxy course? And why would Destiny need to scan an entire galaxy? I have made it clear it just needs to scan the stars it passes along Eli's new course.Eli's course isn't new. It's a straight shot, no stopping. It doesn't have to correct because it knows what's there.

It cannot scan things in FTL, as has been proven multiple times. It nearly ran into a star that it didn't know was there.


Again your reply is just plain silly. If the Drones have the nearly infinite numbers to guard every star in the current galaxy then they can easily guard every star in the next galaxy. If that is the case, then Destiny is doomed wherever it goes and it is pointless to do anything.Why would they go to the next galaxy? They can't know there are gates all the way out there unless they've already been there. They're in this galaxy, and presumably no others.


Again your reply is just plain silly. I have made it clear that there is is absolutely no reason they would ever have to go off course. There will be millions of suitable stars they will pass along their 3 year course, anyone of which they could easily stop at to refuel.And all of which the drones will more than likely guard against exactly that sort of thing. Now I see why you're so set on this. You think the drones, having clearly established a strategy to deal with Destiny, are suddenly going to abandon it.


Again, another silly reply. There is no problem finding anyone of millions of suitable stars along their path.

It is very very simple. Eli programs Destiny's new course and instructs the ship to as needed, refuel at any suitable star along the way. Period. End of discussion.See above. It is a problem if the drones are there and blow the ship up, which they almost certainly would be.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Goes both ways. I can prove the context. You cannot.

Go ahead.


Eli's course isn't new. It's a straight shot, no stopping. It doesn't have to correct because it knows what's there.


Of Course it is new. Eli just devised it.


It cannot scan things in FTL, as has been proven multiple times. It nearly ran into a star that it didn't know was there.

Fine, list examples.


Why would they go to the next galaxy? They can't know there are gates all the way out there unless they've already been there. They're in this galaxy, and presumably no others.

They know there are gates in this galaxy. It certainly wouldn't be much of a stretch to conclude there are gates in the next galaxy and that is where Destiny will go when it leaves this one.


And all of which the drones will more than likely guard against exactly that sort of thing. Now I see why you're so set on this. You think the drones, having clearly established a strategy to deal with Destiny, are suddenly going to abandon it.

What thing? I don't think that at all.


See above. It is a problem if the drones are there and blow the ship up, which they almost certainly would be.

What?

tomstone
May 13th, 2011, 07:39 PM
It cannot scan things in FTL, as has been proven multiple times. It nearly ran into a star that it didn't know was there.




Fine, list examples.


He just did but fine:

1. "Faith" Planet
2. Those radiation Stars from the Finale in Season 1.

Sorry, there hasnt been more, but 2 should be enough, though I know it wont.

morbosfist
May 13th, 2011, 07:48 PM
Go ahead.Sigh, you're just being purposefully difficult now.

BRODY: How much will we fall short?

RUSH: Fifty thousand light years, give or take.

BRODY: Just a few percent of the total.

RUSH: Yeah.

Right there. Percent is distance.


Of Course it is new. Eli just devised it.Eli didn't devise a new course. Only Chloe can do that. All he suggested was that they not bother stopping.


Fine, list examples.
Faith: Cannot see star.
Resurgence: Cannot see Control Ship.
Gauntlet: Cannot see Control Ship until they literally stop on top of it.

Proof positive. They can't see in FTL, and never have.


They know there are gates in this galaxy. It certainly wouldn't be much of a stretch to conclude there are gates in the next galaxy and that is where Destiny will go when it leaves this one.Which galaxy? There are any number of galaxies any number of directions from Destiny that do not emit any signal capable of reaching across the span of a galaxy.


What thing? I don't think that at all.Destiny has already proven it goes a certain way and uses certain stars. You're acting like the drones will, for no reason, suddenly decide to abandon this strategy and leave all those nice stars ahead of Destiny ripe for the picking.

Blackhole
May 13th, 2011, 07:50 PM
He just did but fine:

1. "Faith" Planet
2. Those radiation Stars from the Finale in Season 1.

Sorry, there hasnt been more, but 2 should be enough, though I know it wont.

I don't remember. Please elaborate what happened that illustrates your point.

GoodSmeagol
May 13th, 2011, 11:19 PM
I don't remember. Please elaborate what happened that illustrates your point.

They dropped out of FTL because the faith planets sun gravitational force was not on destinys database, and it caused the ship to drop out of ftl for a month to reconfigure its course.
If destiny could scan while in ftl, it would have adjusted it course before having to spend a month to do so.

Blackhole
May 14th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Sigh, you're just being purposefully difficult now.

BRODY: How much will we fall short?

RUSH: Fifty thousand light years, give or take.

BRODY: Just a few percent of the total.

RUSH: Yeah.

Right there. Percent is distance.

Whether the statement: "if Eli's calculations are off" refers to the distance they have to travel or the power required to traverse that distance is irrelevant. The point of the exchange is that the margin of safety to successfully arrive at the destination is extremely small and the consequence for failure very dire.


Eli didn't devise a new course. Only Chloe can do that. All he suggested was that they not bother stopping.


What does it matter who devised the course; the fact remains that one was devised and implemented. The point is Destiny has the sensor capacity to scan ahead and leave the seeder ship's path. Since this is so they can find suitable stars to refuel at along the way.


Faith: Cannot see star.
Resurgence: Cannot see Control Ship.
Gauntlet: Cannot see Control Ship until they literally stop on top of it.

Proof positive. They can't see in FTL, and never have.


All this proves is that their scanning isn't foolproof not that the ship can't scan in FTL. If I took the time to carefully review all the episodes I fully expect I could find examples of Destiny scanning while in FTL. The situations you mention are indicative that near misses and surprises make for good drama. But even if I couldn't find examples the point is largely moot. The fact that Destiny’s sensors showed all the gates and stars ahead were blockaded proves conclusively that Destiny is able to scan far ahead. If Destiny can detect small objects like Drones it certainly can detect huge objects like stars. The point is Destiny can scan far ahead, whether it needs to scan before it enters FTL or indeed can scan during. If we assume for the sake of argument that Destiny can’t scan during FTL then it must need to scan ahead before each FTL jump. Many suitable stars would be detectable at that time. Again, the ship could easily be programmed to refuel as needed at any suitable star along the way.


Which galaxy? There are any number of galaxies any number of directions from Destiny that do not emit any signal capable of reaching across the span of a galaxy.

True but the closest one would likely be the one Eli is referring to and the next one on Destiny’s path.


Destiny has already proven it goes a certain way and uses certain stars. You're acting like the drones will, for no reason, suddenly decide to abandon this strategy and leave all those nice stars ahead of Destiny ripe for the picking.

I don’t understand your statement. I am not suggesting that at all. Do you understand that it was Eli’s plan to leave the seeder ship course? He was the one who proposed that Destiny put everyone in stasis and follow a 3 year course to the outside of the galaxy, follow the edge around to a point of proximity (I assume) and then cross the void to the next galaxy (on Destiny’s course)? I haven’t ever tried to critique his plan. I just suggested that there was no reason that Destiny couldn’t refuel along the way.

Destiny is capable of scanning ahead and locating suitable stars to refuel in. It is really unimportant whether the scanning has to be done before each FTL jump or during. The fact remains that the stars are locatable.

Earlier, you said Eli wouldn’t be able to program the ship to refuel along the way because Destiny would automatically default to the seeder ship course and be destroyed by the Drones. I countered that the ship’s AI is already is aware of the Drone threat because it altered its refuel course behind a gas giant so if it encountered the Drones it could immediately reenter FTL without engine damage. Volker’s statement that the ship’s approach course was atypical behavior supports my conclusion.

If the crew has sufficient control of Destiny’s command functions to successfully program a 3 year deviation from the seeder ship course then there is no sensible reason to assert that Destiny wouldn’t allow for refueling along the way. The risk to the ship is far, far, far greater from one uninterrupted FTL jump than from multiple ones where Destiny’s power reserves can be kept high by repeated refuels.

I suspect your refusal to accept my arguments are due far more to a problem with my criticism of the show’s logic than from the soundness of my arguments.

garhkal
May 14th, 2011, 03:22 PM
One thing i just thought of. From watching it again, we see lots of stars in that "corridor", but only a few gates spread out.. which is where the Drone command ships were.

Could they not have figured out a 'stopping point' to hit one of Those stars to recharge at?

morbosfist
May 14th, 2011, 05:11 PM
Whether the statement: "if Eli's calculations are off" refers to the distance they have to travel or the power required to traverse that distance is irrelevant. The point of the exchange is that the margin of safety to successfully arrive at the destination is extremely small and the consequence for failure very dire.Rush is trying to emphasize the worst-case scenario. Considering he was later ok with leaving someone outside for two weeks on minimal life support, clearly he just wasn't ok with the idea in the first place.


What does it matter who devised the course; the fact remains that one was devised and implemented. The point is Destiny has the sensor capacity to scan ahead and leave the seeder ship's path. Since this is so they can find suitable stars to refuel at along the way.Only when it's not in FTL, and only to a certain distance. It's easy to track signals through subspace, as previous episodes (and series) have demonstrated. Locating objects in space on sensors has considerably less range.


All this proves is that their scanning isn't foolproof not that the ship can't scan in FTL. If I took the time to carefully review all the episodes I fully expect I could find examples of Destiny scanning while in FTL. The situations you mention are indicative that near misses and surprises make for good drama. But even if I couldn't find examples the point is largely moot. The fact that Destiny’s sensors showed all the gates and stars ahead were blockaded proves conclusively that Destiny is able to scan far ahead. If Destiny can detect small objects like Drones it certainly can detect huge objects like stars. The point is Destiny can scan far ahead, whether it needs to scan before it enters FTL or indeed can scan during. If we assume for the sake of argument that Destiny can’t scan during FTL then it must need to scan ahead before each FTL jump. Many suitable stars would be detectable at that time. Again, the ship could easily be programmed to refuel as needed at any suitable star along the way.If you can find one then find one. You haven't, while I can show you proof that it not only can't detect ships but entire star systems. Open and shut until you get new evidence.

Eli projected the path ahead, as is prescanned by the seeders. It can project their entire course through the galaxy if need-be, but that doesn't mean they can see that far ahead.


True but the closest one would likely be the one Eli is referring to and the next one on Destiny’s path.But the drones have no way of knowing this. It could be in any number of directions, and they cannot know that gates lie outside the galaxy.


I don’t understand your statement. I am not suggesting that at all. Do you understand that it was Eli’s plan to leave the seeder ship course? He was the one who proposed that Destiny put everyone in stasis and follow a 3 year course to the outside of the galaxy, follow the edge around to a point of proximity (I assume) and then cross the void to the next galaxy (on Destiny’s course)? I haven’t ever tried to critique his plan. I just suggested that there was no reason that Destiny couldn’t refuel along the way.He never says they should leave the course. He says they should skip it, which Chloe reiterates. There's plenty of reason Destiny can't refuel along the way, namely that the drones will blow it up.


Destiny is capable of scanning ahead and locating suitable stars to refuel in. It is really unimportant whether the scanning has to be done before each FTL jump or during. The fact remains that the stars are locatable.Destiny already knows where the stars are, which it gets from the seed ships. It doesn't have to scan ahead, which is why it nearly hit the star in "Faith".


Earlier, you said Eli wouldn’t be able to program the ship to refuel along the way because Destiny would automatically default to the seeder ship course and be destroyed by the Drones. I countered that the ship’s AI is already is aware of the Drone threat because it altered its refuel course behind a gas giant so if it encountered the Drones it could immediately reenter FTL without engine damage. Volker’s statement that the ship’s approach course was atypical behavior supports my conclusion.If it knew about the drones, why stop there at all? Your logic is based on a faulty assumption. You assume that Destiny somehow knows about the danger when it had expressly never encountered drones at the star before then decided to act weird just in case. It was a fluke, and Destiny never shows any indication of being so charitable. Hell, it tried to abort their vital refueling attempt twice.


If the crew has sufficient control of Destiny’s command functions to successfully program a 3 year deviation from the seeder ship course then there is no sensible reason to assert that Destiny wouldn’t allow for refueling along the way. The risk to the ship is far, far, far greater from one uninterrupted FTL jump than from multiple ones where Destiny’s power reserves can be kept high by repeated refuels.And when they stop, they'll run into drones, and the drones will destroy them. Destiny will not act out of self-preservation.


I suspect your refusal to accept my arguments are due far more to a problem with my criticism of the show’s logic than from the soundness of my arguments.More than your criticism fails to take into consideration the very problems outlined in the episode itself. You just seem to think they can magically avoid the problem that caused this situation in the first place.


One thing i just thought of. From watching it again, we see lots of stars in that "corridor", but only a few gates spread out.. which is where the Drone command ships were.

Could they not have figured out a 'stopping point' to hit one of Those stars to recharge at?The drones probably were at the stars. They wouldn't just leave. Eli was just demonstrated that the couldn't possibly get supplies.

tomstone
May 14th, 2011, 06:09 PM
Do you guys notice that the same is being repeated for 3 Pages now? I am going back to calling this Religion and without hope of both sides agreeing. Dont take it wrong again Blackhole, but you are not going to budge anymore from your viewpoint than I will or the others might. If you want I can even call myself the religiously believing one and you are the one with pure facts. Doesnt change that we will keep on trying to turn each other to the Darkside! :P

We should rather make this a poll and ask everyone if they think Destiny can find its way on its own even without the Seedship path.

Blackhole
May 14th, 2011, 06:14 PM
Rush is trying to emphasize the worst-case scenario. Considering he was later ok with leaving someone outside for two weeks on minimal life support, clearly he just wasn't ok with the idea in the first place.


You are ignoring what the transcript clearly says because it doesn't support your view.


Only when it's not in FTL, and only to a certain distance. It's easy to track signals through subspace, as previous episodes (and series) have demonstrated. Locating objects in space on sensors has considerably less range.

Your conclusions about Destiny's scanning capability are ridiculous, If Destiny couldn't scan in FTL there would be no possible way it could navigate in one FTL jump the 3 year course 2/3 through the current galaxy to its outside edge and then along the perimeter to a point of proximity where it would cross to the next galaxy. Our galaxy is 100 thousand light-years across. Destiny's galaxy could easily be three times larger. If Destiny had such limited sensor capacity as you suggest it would get lost long before it reached the other galaxy.


If you can find one then find one. You haven't, while I can show you proof that it not only can't detect ships but entire star systems. Open and shut until you get new evidence.

See above point.


Eli projected the path ahead, as is prescanned by the seeders. It can project their entire course through the galaxy if need-be, but that doesn't mean they can see that far ahead.

See above point.


But the drones have no way of knowing this. It could be in any number of directions, and they cannot know that gates lie outside the galaxy.

The Drones obviously were able to scan ahead and locate the stars and planets along the seeder ship path. Rush said their blockade extended to the edge of the current galaxy. At the galaxy's edge there would likely only be one direction the Seeder Ship would have gone and that would be the next galaxy. If the Drones have such limitless numbers as you suggest then it would be a small mater to cross to the next galaxy and blockade all the gates and stars in that galaxy as well.


He never says they should leave the course. He says they should skip it, which Chloe reiterates. There's plenty of reason Destiny can't refuel along the way, namely that the drones will blow it up.


There is no evidence at all that the Drones have any where near the sufficient numbers to blockade all the stars along Eli's course to the next galaxy.


Destiny already knows where the stars are, which it gets from the seed ships. It doesn't have to scan ahead, which is why it nearly hit the star in "Faith".

That may be true in the Seeder Ship's course it wouldn't be true on Eli's course to the next galaxy.


If it knew about the drones, why stop there at all? Your logic is based on a faulty assumption. You assume that Destiny somehow knows about the danger when it had expressly never encountered drones at the star before then decided to act weird just in case. It was a fluke, and Destiny never shows any indication of being so charitable. Hell, it tried to abort their vital refueling attempt twice.


Destiny could have easily surmised that the Drones may attempt to blockade gates and star ahead. It wouldn't know which ones. Charting the course around the gas giant kept its options open in case this star was blockaded. My assumption isn't faulty at all. Destiny made an atypical maneuver that saved everyone's life. If it hadn't come out of FTL where it did it would not have been able to enter FTL without severe damage to the engines. If you don't agree with my assumption then why did Destiny do what it did?


And when they stop, they'll run into drones, and the drones will destroy them. Destiny will not act out of self-preservation.


There is no evidence at all that the Drones are anywhere outside of the Seeder Ship corridor.


More than your criticism fails to take into consideration the very problems outlined in the episode itself. You just seem to think they can magically avoid the problem that caused this situation in the first place.

That is not true at all. There is evidence that Destiny's scans in FTL are not foolproof. But the fact remains that Destiny could not follow Eli's 3 year course unless it could scan vast distances ahead. This fact is incontrovertible.


The drones probably were at the stars. They wouldn't just leave. Eli was just demonstrated that the couldn't possibly get supplies.

You keep saying the Drones would leave. Leave where? I have no idea what you are talking about. I have never suggested the Drones would leave anywhere.

Blackhole
May 14th, 2011, 06:16 PM
Do you guys notice that the same is being repeated for 3 Pages now? I am going back to calling this Religion and without hope of both sides agreeing.

We should rather make this a poll and ask everyone if they think Destiny can find its way on its own even without the Seedship path.

You are right. A poll would be a good idea.

morbosfist
May 14th, 2011, 06:27 PM
You are ignoring what the transcript clearly says because it doesn't support your view.No, I just have a different interpretation, one supported by previous episodes. You refuse to see it.


Your conclusions about Destiny's scanning capability are ridiculous, If Destiny couldn't scan in FTL there would be no possible way it could navigate in one FTL jump the 3 year course 2/3 through the current galaxy to its outside edge and then along the perimeter to a point of proximity where it would cross to the next galaxy. Our galaxy is 100 thousand light-years across. Destiny's galaxy could easily be three times larger. If Destiny had such limited sensor capacity as you suggest it would get lost long before it reached the other galaxy.Nevertheless, I have proven Destiny cannot scan in FTL. It nearly hit a star and the only thing that drew it out was the gravity well. My claims are backed up by facts. You simply cannot fit that into your preconceptions and thus seek to ignore it.


The Drones obviously were able to scan ahead and locate the stars and planets along the seeder ship path. Rush said their blockade extended to the edge of the current galaxy. At the galaxy's edge there would likely only be one direction the Seeder Ship would have gone and that would be the next galaxy. If the Drones have such limitless numbers as you suggest then it would be a small mater to cross to the next galaxy and blockade all the gates and stars in that galaxy as well.Except, again, they do not know any gates are out there, and they cannot have been around to see the seeder ships if the seeder ships made it to the next galaxy, which they clearly did. The drones won't leave this galaxy without cause, and they have none.


There is no evidence at all that the Drones have any where near the sufficient numbers to blockade all the stars along Eli's course to the next galaxy.Sure there is. They can guard every single star along the path all at once, and later every single gate. Unless they decided to just change tactics outright, then there must be enough for both tasks.


That may be true in the Seeder Ship's course it wouldn't be true on Eli's course to the next galaxy.Unless Eli is planning on flying through empty space, he's going to have to stick to the path.


Destiny could have easily surmised that the Drones may attempt to blockade gates and star ahead. It wouldn't know which ones. Charting the course around the gas giant kept its options open in case this star was blockaded. My assumption isn't faulty at all. Destiny made an atypical maneuver that saved everyone's life. If it hadn't come out of FTL where it did it would not have been able to enter FTL without severe damage to the engines. If you don't agree with my assumption then why did Destiny do what it did?There's no way of knowing. Perhaps the planet was in the way. It is affected by objects in real space. If said planet's orbital pattern brought it in a direct line between the star and Destiny, then it only makes sense to slingshot around it. You're drawing a conclusion from one errant action, one that does not suggest so much as you want it to.


There is no evidence at all that the Drones are anywhere outside of the Seeder Ship corridor.And no evidence to suggest that Eli's new course has radically changed their direction, other than the lack of stopping. They can't leave the course without risking hitting something. Rush in fact makes an issue of this when he first gains control of the ship. He doesn't want to risk flying the ship himself and accidentally stopping by something dangerous.


That is not true at all. There is evidence that Destiny's scans in FTL are not foolproof. But the fact remains that Destiny could not follow Eli's 3 year course unless it could scan vast distances ahead. This fact is incontrovertible.You want it to be, but it's not. It can't scan vast distances ahead. It couldn't detect one piddly star from the location of its last jump.


You keep saying the Drones would leave. Leave where? I have no idea what you are talking about. I have never suggested the Drones would leave anywhere.You are suggesting they would leave. You keep saying that Destiny could recharge. As has been established, the drones are prepared for that. You keep ignoring this fact. The only alternative is for them to go on a tangent, and they're not going to do that.

Blackhole
May 14th, 2011, 06:51 PM
No, I just have a different interpretation, one supported by previous episodes. You refuse to see it.


No you don't understand what the transcript has said. See below.


Nevertheless, I have proven Destiny cannot scan in FTL. It nearly hit a star and the only thing that drew it out was the gravity well. My claims are backed up by facts. You simply cannot fit that into your preconceptions and thus seek to ignore it.

Except, again, they do not know any gates are out there, and they cannot have been around to see the seeder ships if the seeder ships made it to the next galaxy, which they clearly did. The drones won't leave this galaxy without cause, and they have none.

Sure there is. They can guard every single star along the path all at once, and later every single gate. Unless they decided to just change tactics outright, then there must be enough for both tasks.

Unless Eli is planning on flying through empty space, he's going to have to stick to the path.

There's no way of knowing. Perhaps the planet was in the way. It is affected by objects in real space. If said planet's orbital pattern brought it in a direct line between the star and Destiny, then it only makes sense to slingshot around it. You're drawing a conclusion from one errant action, one that does not suggest so much as you want it to.

And no evidence to suggest that Eli's new course has radically changed their direction, other than the lack of stopping. They can't leave the course without risking hitting something. Rush in fact makes an issue of this when he first gains control of the ship. He doesn't want to risk flying the ship himself and accidentally stopping by something dangerous.

You want it to be, but it's not. It can't scan vast distances ahead. It couldn't detect one piddly star from the location of its last jump.

You are suggesting they would leave. You keep saying that Destiny could recharge. As has been established, the drones are prepared for that. You keep ignoring this fact. The only alternative is for them to go on a tangent, and they're not going to do that.

Your sentences in bold explain it all. You don't understand that Eli's proposed 3 year course is exactly a tangent. A tangent leaving the Seeder Ship corridor to the edge of the galaxy, then around the perimeter of the same galaxy to a point of closest proximity with the adjacent galaxy and then across the void (separating the two galaxies) to the adjacent galaxy.

See transcript below:

WALLACE: Another day, another galaxy.

YOUNG: What the hell's that mean?

WALLACE: This is just one of a thousand galaxies in Destiny's path, and I think you'll agree it's turned out to be something of a hostile environment.

YOUNG (sitting on the edge of the bed and taking his shoes off): So?

WALLACE: So, we skip it. One continuous F.T.L. jump out and around the length of this galaxy, across the gap to the next one until we reach the first Gate on the other side.

YOUNG: Well, how long's that gonna take?

WALLACE (hesitantly): ... That's the part you're not gonna like. We're only about a third of the way through this galaxy, plus the gap to the next one's quite a bit larger than last time. On top of that, thanks to the ass-kicking that was just handed to us, we've got power issues ... and some not-insignificant damage to the F.T.L. drive that we won't have time to fix, which means we'll be operating at reduced speed, which means we might actually run out of ...

YOUNG: Eli. How long?

WALLACE: Three years, give or take.

(Everett lowers his head and chuckles.)

YOUNG: Wow. Three years.

(Eli nods.)

YOUNG: We barely have enough for a month. What do you suggest we do for food and water while all this is happening?

WALLACE: Nothing.

(Young frowns at him. Eli smiles back smugly.)

WALLACE: That's the genius part, by the way.


STASIS CHAMBERS. Eli activates the controls outside one of the pods and its door slides up. He gestures to the pod as Young looks at it. Nicholas is standing at a nearby console with a look on his face that suggests that he either just chewed a wasp, or he's mad as hell that he didn't think of this first.

WALLACE: Once you're sealed inside the stasis pod, your metabolism shuts down. You don't need food or water. Basically you just sleep through the whole thing. And we found several other corridors like this one. There should be enough for everybody.

(Young steps up to the edge of the open pod and peers inside.)

WALLACE: And thanks to the, uh, the research that Brody and I have already done ...

(Nick smirks.)

WALLACE: ... we know they work.

YOUNG: Three years?

WALLACE: Give or take.

YOUNG: You keep saying that.

RUSH: What Eli is neglecting to mention is that a jump like this is gonna require every last ounce of power we have, and if his calculations are off ...

WALLACE: They're not.

RUSH: ... and we fall short even by a fraction, a tenth of one percent ...

WALLACE: We won't.

RUSH: ... then we're gonna drift the rest of the way and instead of three years, it'll take a thousand.

(Young's head snaps around to look at him.)

RUSH: Or more.

(Young turns to look at Eli again.)

YOUNG: I assume you were gonna get to that part.

WALLACE: Look, I've run the numbers. This could work. But we have to do it soon. We're bleeding power from a dozen systems and we can't risk dropping out to recharge.

RUSH: There are too many things that could go wrong. We have to find another way.

(Young steps down from the pod and paces for a moment before turning back.)

YOUNG: All right. Uh, how long would it take you to prep the rest of these pods?

WALLACE: Uh, a day, maybe.

YOUNG: Get to work.

(Eli looks at him proudly for a moment, then turns and trots away.)

RUSH: Colonel ...

YOUNG: You've got twenty-four hours to come up with a better idea.

(He walks out of the room.)

I have bolded the pertinent section for you. I will repeat it again for clarity.

WALLACE: So, we skip it. One continuous F.T.L. jump out and around the length of this galaxy, across the gap to the next one until we reach the first Gate on the other side.

"One continuous F.T.L. jump out and around the length of this galaxy, across the gap to the next one until we reach the first Gate on the other side." The bolded "jump out and around" means they are leaving the Seeder Ship corridor - hence the need for navigation over vast distances, hence no Drone ships, hence the need and safety of refueling at any one of millions of available and suitable stars along the way.

garhkal
May 15th, 2011, 12:54 PM
The drones probably were at the stars. They wouldn't just leave. Eli was just demonstrated that the couldn't possibly get supplies.

We only saw Command ships poping up GUARDING the gates in our path. Not at any of the suns... I was saying plan a recharge point for power.. just before we leave.

Blackhole
May 15th, 2011, 05:05 PM
morbosfist,

I have posted another section of transcript that confirms that the margin of error for Eli’s plan is very small and that his new course will leave the Seeder Ship corridor.

Nick is in the corridor where he does his thinking. Flicking through a notebook, he scribbles a calculation on the wall with chalk, then promptly crosses it through several times. He paces, turning from wall panel to wall panel as he looks at various calculations. Trying to write another calculation and realizing that it's useless, he flings the chalk in exasperation to the floor.

RUSH (furiously, under his breath): Ah, gods!

(He gets back to work but soon hurls the chalk angrily to the floor again. Pacing, he searches through his notebook but then tears out some of the pages in a fit of pique and chucks them onto the floor. Chloe's voice comes from behind him.)

ARMSTRONG: How's it going?

RUSH: Huh?

(He turns as she walks closer. He sighs in frustration.)

RUSH: It's not.

ARMSTRONG: For what it's worth, I went over Eli's numbers. It's true there's not much margin for error, but I think it might just work.

RUSH: Yeah, if we're lucky.

(He gestures around the walls.)

RUSH: Destiny is on this path for a reason. We've only strayed from it once and that's what caused all this trouble in the first place.

ARMSTRONG: But we're not going off the path - at least, not for good. We're just skipping part of it.

RUSH: Yeah, well that's what bothers me. This ship was launched to solve a mystery, not by arriving at some ultimate destination where all the questions are answered at one time, but by accumulating knowledge bit by bit. If we skip over this galaxy, then who's to say we won't skip over some vital piece of the puzzle - and then all of this, everything we've been through, could be for nothing.

(He turns back to face the wall and looks around for a piece of chalk to pick up.)

RUSH: There's gotta be a way to defeat them. I just need more time.

ARMSTRONG: Which we don't have. Look, you're right: if we go into those pods, we're taking a chance. We might miss something, or we might sleep a lot longer than we planned and never see our loved ones again. Or we might never wake up at all. But Destiny will keep going. If we stay and we don't find a way to defeat the drones, we'll all be killed and this ship will be destroyed, and then this really will have all been for nothing.

(Nick looks down unhappily, knowing that she's right.)

For clarity I am posting the pertinent sections again.

ARMSTRONG: For what it's worth, I went over Eli's numbers. It's true there's not much margin for error, but I think it might just work.

ARMSTRONG: But we're not going off the path - at least, not for good. We're just skipping part of it.

Looking forward to a reply.

morbosfist
May 15th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Too much text to quote. Assuming that Eli intends to just go "up and out", so to speak, then yes they wouldn't need to worry about hitting anything. Unless he's going in a straight line, though, it'd take a lot longer than three years.

Blackhole
May 15th, 2011, 05:20 PM
morbosfist,

I gather you now agree that Destiny must be able to scan vast distances ahead for it to successfully complete its tangential 3 year course out of the Seeder Ship corridor to the next galaxy?

And due to the very small margin of error for a successful one FTL jump arrival, the ship can and should stop for refueling as needed, at any one of the millions of available and suitable stars along the way?

morbosfist
May 15th, 2011, 05:49 PM
I gather you now agree that Destiny must be able to scan vast distances ahead for it to successfully complete its tangential 3 year course out of the Seeder Ship corridor to the next galaxy?

And due to the very small margin of error for a successful one FTL jump arrival, the ship can and should stop for refueling as needed, at any one of the millions of available and suitable stars along the way?I still maintain that it cannot do that, as I have shown. But, if it's just going to fly up and out of the galaxy and do a straight shot to the next, then it won't need to. Just empty space from here to there. Recharging wouldn't be an option unless they flew back in, in which case you get the same problem. It would need to scan ahead, which would require stopping and unfreezing someone to plot the new course.

Blackhole
May 15th, 2011, 06:25 PM
I still maintain that it cannot do that, as I have shown. But, if it's just going to fly up and out of the galaxy and do a straight shot to the next, then it won't need to. Just empty space from here to there. Recharging wouldn't be an option unless they flew back in, in which case you get the same problem. It would need to scan ahead, which would require stopping and unfreezing someone to plot the new course.

Why would you think flying 2/3 across a huge galaxy with 300 million stars would be empty space? Has the small corridor it has been following been empty space? How is Destiny suppose to navigate across a vast distance of hundreds of thousands of light-years and millions of solar systems if it can't scan far, far ahead? What is to keep it from getting lost and running into stars? Why isn't recharging an option? Destiny will be passing millions of suitable stars along the way to refuel in. We are not talking about a drive across town. I am not sure if you are just stubborn or simply have very little astronomical knowledge.

morbosfist
May 15th, 2011, 07:04 PM
You keep harping on all those stars, but you refuse to accept the fact that Destiny only knows where it's going because the seed ships mapped out the course for it. This isn't just supposition, it's an outright fact. Those other stars don't matter if Destiny has no way of getting to them safely, which it really can't do unless it knows what's out there.

Fact of the matter of this. Unless it leaves the galaxy entirely and flies through empty space the whole way, it needs to know what's ahead. It only knows the course provided by the seed ships, and its scanning capability is not that good. Therefore, it can either travel on the course and not stop, or fly out of the galaxy and go straight to the next.

Blackhole
May 15th, 2011, 07:53 PM
You keep harping on all those stars, but you refuse to accept the fact that Destiny only knows where it's going because the seed ships mapped out the course for it. This isn't just supposition, it's an outright fact. Those other stars don't matter if Destiny has no way of getting to them safely, which it really can't do unless it knows what's out there.

Fact of the matter of this. Unless it leaves the galaxy entirely and flies through empty space the whole way, it needs to know what's ahead. It only knows the course provided by the seed ships, and its scanning capability is not that good. Therefore, it can either travel on the course and not stop, or fly out of the galaxy and go straight to the next.

You assert that Destiny only knows the space ahead that the Seeder Ships have mapped out for it and cannot navigate any course except through said space. You further assert that if Destiny was to leave the Seeder Ship's corridor it would need to know what is ahead in order to navigate. You are completely unable to understand that this is exactly what Destiny will be doing for the next 3 years - navigating a vast (hundreds of thousands light-years) uncharted region of space. Your position is completely convoluted and illogical - but everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint.

tomstone
May 15th, 2011, 08:25 PM
You assert that Destiny only knows the space ahead that the Seeder Ships have mapped out for it and cannot navigate any course except through said space. You further assert that if Destiny was to leave the Seeder Ship's corridor it would need to know what is ahead in order to navigate. You are completely unable to understand that this is exactly what Destiny will be doing for the next 3 years - navigating a vast (hundreds of thousands light-years) uncharted region of space. Your position is completely convoluted and illogical - but everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint.

I just wanted to point out that it is not so hard to point Destiny in a direction without stars in the way and thats it.

Also another thought, since Destiny travels FTL, cant it bent around gravitational fields like light does? I probably explained it wrong, but when I heard about it I was about 12.

morbosfist
May 15th, 2011, 09:31 PM
You assert that Destiny only knows the space ahead that the Seeder Ships have mapped out for it and cannot navigate any course except through said space. You further assert that if Destiny was to leave the Seeder Ship's corridor it would need to know what is ahead in order to navigate. You are completely unable to understand that this is exactly what Destiny will be doing for the next 3 years - navigating a vast (hundreds of thousands light-years) uncharted region of space. Your position is completely convoluted and illogical - but everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint.Uncharted, but empty, assuming it leave the galaxy first. The odds of hitting anything in space are low to begin with, lower still in the void between galaxies. Destiny cannot navigate a course through a galaxy without it being scanned. "Faith" proved this. But if they go into the void, they don't have to do much more than point in the direction of the next galaxy. If they stick to the seed ship course and just never stop, which is the most likely course (nothing shorter than a straight line), then they don't have a problem.

Rylor
May 16th, 2011, 12:11 AM
Well, for one thing, space is very big and mostly filled with... nothing. The chance of accidentally hitting something as "small" as a star is close to zero (assuming normal stellar conditions, the chance is higher inside star clusters for example). So there is really no need to worry about that. Alternatively, Destiny could simply leave the galactic plane (in essence, fly "above" the galactic disk). The stellar density there is even lower.

I don't really see a need for Destiny to be able to scan while in FTL or have an absurd scan radius.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 02:04 PM
Uncharted, but empty, assuming it leave the galaxy first. The odds of hitting anything in space are low to begin with, lower still in the void between galaxies. Destiny cannot navigate a course through a galaxy without it being scanned. "Faith" proved this. But if they go into the void, they don't have to do much more than point in the direction of the next galaxy. If they stick to the seed ship course and just never stop, which is the most likely course (nothing shorter than a straight line), then they don't have a problem.

To leave the galactic plane the distance could easily be in excess of 1000 light-years. A very long way with a lot of stars. Next, the right galaxy has to be located. What if there is more than one nearby? How do they determine which one without sensors? Then the relatively infinitesimal Seeder Ship corridor has to be located. You make it sound like all they have to do is point Destiny in the right direction and it would be a piece of cake. Obviously you don't understand the distances and scale involved in galactic travel. You keep clinging to your "Faith" example as proof positive for your destiny can't scan argument. The very least amount of common sense dictates that Destiny couldn't have possibly have traveled nearly across the known universe without very sophisticated sensors. Without them Destiny would have gotten hopelessly lost.

For some reason I can fathom, still you just can't seem to get, ("If they stick to the seed ship course and just never stop, which is the most likely course (nothing shorter than a straight line), then they don't have a problem."), the course that Eli's set and Destiny has already embarked on "skips" the seeder ship course. One more time slowly - Destiny has already left the seeder ship corridor.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 02:15 PM
I just wanted to point out that it is not so hard to point Destiny in a direction without stars in the way and thats it.

Also another thought, since Destiny travels FTL, cant it bent around gravitational fields like light does? I probably explained it wrong, but when I heard about it I was about 12.

Really, You think all is needed to navigate distances likely well in excess of a hundred thousand light-years, is to point Destiny in the right direction. That is like saying if you want to drive without a map and compass from northern most Alaska to the southern most tip of Chile all you have to do is head south.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 02:21 PM
Well, for one thing, space is very big and mostly filled with... nothing. The chance of accidentally hitting something as "small" as a star is close to zero (assuming normal stellar conditions, the chance is higher inside star clusters for example). So there is really no need to worry about that. Alternatively, Destiny could simply leave the galactic plane (in essence, fly "above" the galactic disk). The stellar density there is even lower.

I don't really see a need for Destiny to be able to scan while in FTL or have an absurd scan radius.

See above two posts.

Rylor
May 16th, 2011, 02:42 PM
In "Life" they accessed the data collected by the seed ships. The star in "Faith" is an exception since it was not there when the seed ships mapped out the galaxy. It was created specifically for Destiny by the Obelisk builders.

Your analogy is flawed. The shortest distance in space is a straight line. Of course, space travel is not always that simple. Fuel concerns come to mind. Therefore, in real life special maneuvers and flight paths are used. But since Destiny does travel faster than light through interstellar and intergalactic space, there is neither the need nor the possibility for a special path.
On Earth, you rarely can travel in a straight line, because we have means of transportation that allow for faster travel even if the distance traveled is higher. If you were to go on foot, you would have to consider obstacles like forests, deserts, mountains, rivers and so on, therefore, a detailed map would indeed be necessary. If you just fly through space, the chance of randomly hitting an object larger than a dust particle is very, very low. So you could simply take the shortest path and not worry about obstacles on the way.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 03:33 PM
In "Life" they accessed the data collected by the seed ships. The star in "Faith" is an exception since it was not there when the seed ships mapped out the galaxy. It was created specifically for Destiny by the Obelisk builders.

Your analogy is flawed. The shortest distance in space is a straight line. Of course, space travel is not always that simple. Fuel concerns come to mind. Therefore, in real life special maneuvers and flight paths are used. But since Destiny does travel faster than light through interstellar and intergalactic space, there is neither the need nor the possibility for a special path.
On Earth, you rarely can travel in a straight line, because we have means of transportation that allow for faster travel even if the distance traveled is higher. If you were to go on foot, you would have to consider obstacles like forests, deserts, mountains, rivers and so on, therefore, a detailed map would indeed be necessary. If you just fly through space, the chance of randomly hitting an object larger than a dust particle is very, very low. So you could simply take the shortest path and not worry about obstacles on the way.

My analogy isn't flawed. The trip Destiny is going to take isn't like a plane flying toward a distant airport. The earth's airports have been mapped the galaxy destiny is in hasn't been except for possibly the Seeder Ship corridor. Destiny is going to have to first exit the galaxy. Whether it heads out of the galactic plane or straight through to the edge and then along it in the plane to a point of nearest proximity to the destination galaxy and then across we have no way of knowing.

Everything in space is moving at different velocities and complex orbits. The only way a straight line course would be possible is if the ship's exact velocity and destination point were known to an incredibly precise detail. Destiny would have to head for where the destination point would be when it arrives. Such a straight line course would require an extremely complete and precisely detailed 3-D map and Destiny would need sensors of extreme sophistication to navigate it. Frankly I don't think any sensors ever created would be able to map out such a long and precise course in advance (without a detailed map in place) for a single FTL jump. The trip would likely have to be mapped out in a series of segments sequentially.

To suggest that this trip could be done without extremely sophisticated sensors is ridiculous for anyone with even the most basic of astronomical knowledge.

And you are right that space is vast and there is a great distance between objects but colliding once with any object larger than a dust particle at the speeds Destiny is traveling would be a game ending event. There is no way Destiny would ever chance hurtling blindly through space.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 04:42 PM
I was reviewing the transcript for Resurgence and I found an example of Destiny scanning while in FTL.

See below:

BRIDGE. Adam Brody, Dale Volker and Lisa Park are working on separate consoles at the front of the Bridge as Nicholas Rush walks in and stands at the balcony at the rear of the room. Somewhere an alarm is beeping quietly but insistently. Nicholas looks around.

RUSH: Where's Eli?

VOLKER: He hasn't shown yet.

(Leaning on the balcony with one arm, Nick raises his radio and activates it.)

RUSH: Eli, where are you?

(At her station, Lisa continues to work as the alarm continues to beep. It's coming from the read-out on her screen and she continues to try to correct the problem.)

RUSH (into radio): Eli, you're needed on the Bridge.

(When he still doesn't receive a reply, he tucks the radio into his jeans and walks into the room. He stops as he passes Lisa's console and sighs in irritation as he sees what she is doing. Walking to her side, he leans forward and presses three buttons. The alarm stops beeping. Sighing again, he turns and walks away.)

PARK: Thanks. I'm not sure what happened there. I think I must have ...

RUSH (talking over her in a bored tone): Yeah, yeah, very interesting.

(He sits down in the central command chair and leans forward to a console but before he can do anything all the lights go out and the consoles go dark. Nick sinks back into his chair in a "I'm surrounded by idiots!" way.)

VOLKER: Oops!

RUSH (irritably): Mr. Volker!

VOLKER (working on his console): Sorry. I was running a diagnostic on the ship's power distribution network and I think ...

RUSH (interrupting): Did you remember to bypass the critical systems?

(His face says that he already knows the answer.)

VOLKER: Uhh ... no.

(Nick stands up and steps down towards Dale's station but just then the lights come back on.)

VOLKER: There we go.

(Rolling his eyes, Nick spins around and go back to his own seat. Sitting down and getting comfortable, he takes his pencil out of his notebook and is just about to start writing when ...)

BRODY: This is interesting.

(Nick wipes his brow tiredly.)

BRODY: Looks like Destiny picked up some sort of remote energy signature.

RUSH (tetchily): Mr. Brody, please don't make me come over there.

(Equally tetchily, Adam spins around in his seat to face Nick.)

BRODY: Why don't you be my guest?

(He gets out of his seat and steps aside as Nick stomps over to his station and looks at the screen. The other two look across to them curiously.)

PARK: So?

(Nick doesn't respond, riveted by what he can see on the read-out.)


Shortly afterwards, Colonel Everett Young has been called to the Bridge.

YOUNG: What do you mean, "distant"? We're on a spaceship in the middle of nowhere. From where I'm sitting, everything is distant.

RUSH: This energy signature: it's come from an area outside of the course mapped out for us by the seed ships. Now, getting there would take a bit of a detour.

YOUNG: How much of a detour?

RUSH: About a day's journey in F.T.L.

YOUNG: Do we have any guesses what it could be?

PARK: Could be a potential new power source; signs of intelligent life ...

WALLACE: ... a big black monolith orbiting a planet.

(Young glances round to see Eli Wallace leaning nonchalantly against the door frame. Eli straightens up.)

WALLACE: Sorry. Overslept.

RUSH: There's no way of telling, which is precisely why we should investigate.

BRODY: Whoa, whoa. Whatever happened to "Destiny has a mission and we're all on board and moving forward"? This isn't forward; this is sideways.

Now the next question is why didn’t the ship’s sensors detect the Faith Planet. Because this is a TV show and it is more dramatic to drop out of FTL unexpectedly and find a mysterious planet than to detect it in advance and go there purposely.

Stargate isn’t always consistent in following the rules. In Faith they said the unexpected star’s gravity well was responsible for the ship dropping out of FTL and that they would need to wait and travel at space normal speeds for some distance till they were beyond the well before they could reinitiate FTL. In Gauntlet they initiated FTL very close to the star to escape the Drones (it appears well within the star's gravity well). The point I am making is - creating a sense of drama often trumps closely following the rules.

garhkal
May 16th, 2011, 05:23 PM
OR what the builders did to make the sun/planet also shielded it.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 05:33 PM
OR what the builders did to make the sun/planet also shielded it.

I like your explanation far better than Destiny can't scan in FTL.

morbosfist
May 16th, 2011, 06:06 PM
To leave the galactic plane the distance could easily be in excess of 1000 light-years. A a very long way with a lot of stars. Next, the right galaxy has to be located. What if there is more than one nearby? How do they determine which one without sensors? Then the relatively infinitesimal Seeder Ship corridor has to be located. You make it sound like all they have to do is point Destiny in the right direction and it would be a piece of cake. Obviously you don't understand the distances and scale involved in galactic travel. You keep clinging to your "Faith" example as proof positive for your destiny can't scan argument. The very least amount of common sense dictates that Destiny couldn't have possibly have traveled nearly across the known universe without very sophisticated sensors. Without them Destiny would have gotten hopelessly lost.The seed ships transmit the course back to Destiny. It already knows where the next galaxy is. You don't seem to understand this. Its course comes from the seed ships. Proven fact, see "Life". The way is already mapped. It doesn't need scanners to know which way to go.


For some reason I can fathom, still you just can't seem to get, ("If they stick to the seed ship course and just never stop, which is the most likely course (nothing shorter than a straight line), then they don't have a problem."), the course that Eli's set and Destiny has already embarked on "skips" the seeder ship course. One more time slowly - Destiny has already left the seeder ship corridor.It's still skipping the course if they just never stop. They don't need to leave the course, just never come out of FTL. Therefore, they haven't left the path that we know of, just stopped trying to examine anything along the way.


I was reviewing the transcript for Resurgence and I found an example of Destiny scanning while in FTL.Nope.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9676/resurgenceopening.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/resurgenceopening.jpg/)

Normal space.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 06:28 PM
The seed ships transmit the course back to Destiny. It already knows where the next galaxy is. You don't seem to understand this. Its course comes from the seed ships. Proven fact, see "Life". The way is already mapped. It doesn't need scanners to know which way to go.

I understand completely. Only the course to the next galaxy from the corridor was provided not the tangential course Eli programmed.


It's still skipping the course if they just never stop. They don't need to leave the course, just never come out of FTL. Therefore, they haven't left the path that we know of, just stopped trying to examine anything along the way.

That is not what was said in the transcript and you know it.

WALLACE: So, we skip it. One continuous F.T.L. jump out and around the length of this galaxy, across the gap to the next one until we reach the first Gate on the other side.

ARMSTRONG: But we're not going off the path - at least, not for good. We're just skipping part of it.

If Eli meant to stay in the corridor without stopping he wouldn't have said "out" and there would be no need to go around the length of the galaxy because the corridor would already have come out of the current galaxy in close proximity to the next one.

Both Eli and Chloe used the word "skip" and Chloe said "at least not for good". They wouldn't have said that if they meant to follow the corridor and not stop in it and Rush wouldn't have been so upset if they weren't bypassing it entirely.

You really should show some intellectual honesty and not try to muddy your way through.


Nope.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9676/resurgenceopening.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/resurgenceopening.jpg/)

Normal space.

Are you suggesting this was from the time of the dialog?

Even if it was the same time and indeed was normal space why would Destiny have stopped at this particular point? If Destiny was unable to scan in FTL it would have flown right by with no one the wiser. The signal had to have been detected in FTL and Destiny stopped to allow for investigation.

morbosfist
May 16th, 2011, 06:52 PM
I understand completely. Only the course to the next galaxy from the corridor was provided not the tangential course Eli programmed.It doesn't need to be. That's a simple course correction.


That is not what was said in the transcript and you know it.

WALLACE: So, we skip it. One continuous F.T.L. jump out and around the length of this galaxy, across the gap to the next one until we reach the first Gate on the other side.

ARMSTRONG: But we're not going off the path - at least, not for good. We're just skipping part of it.

If Eli meant to stay in the corridor without stopping he wouldn't have said "out" and there would be no need to go around the length of the galaxy because the corridor would already have come out of the current galaxy in close proximity to the next one.

Both Eli and Chloe used the word "skip". They wouldn't have said that if they meant to follow the corridor and not stop in it and Rush wouldn't have been so upset if they weren't bypassing it.

You really should show some intellectual honesty and not try to muddy your way through.Rush is upset because they are bypassing it, no matter how you look at it. If they leave the path, they're skipping it. If they fly right by, skipping again. No matter how you chop it, it's a skip.


Are you suggesting this was from the time of the dialog?

Even if it was the same time and indeed was normal space why would Destiny have stopped at this particular point? If Destiny was unable to scan in FTL it would have flown right by with no one the wiser. The signal had to have been detected in FTL and Destiny stopped to allow for investigation.Now you're just making excuses. Yes, it is from that point in the dialog and they clearly aren't in FTL. Destiny has stopped in empty space many times before this.

Blackhole
May 16th, 2011, 07:24 PM
It doesn't need to be. That's a simple course correction.

Yea right, Eli and the writers take the time to mention a simple course correction.


Rush is upset because they are bypassing it, no matter how you look at it. If they leave the path, they're skipping it. If they fly right by, skipping again. No matter how you chop it, it's a skip.

You know fully well that if Eli's plan was to follow the corridor and simply not stop that his description to Young would have clearly indicated such as would the dialog between Chloe and Rush.


Now you're just making excuses. Yes, it is from that point in the dialog and they clearly aren't in FTL. Destiny has stopped in empty space many times before this.

Yea right, Destiny just happened to stop in the middle of nowhere right where a remote energy signature just happened to be detected.

I am no more making excuses than you are from your assumption in Faith that the unexpected stop indicated Destiny couldn't scan in FTL. Garhkal's explanation "what the builders did to make the sun/planet also shielded it" makes far more sense than yours. To doggedly maintain that an intergalactic starship that has nearly traversed the known universe doesn't have extremely sophisticated sensors is so patently ridiculous as to defy reason.

I am tired of your profound lack of intellectual honesty. We are done.

morbosfist
May 16th, 2011, 07:44 PM
Yea right, Eli and the writers take the time to mention a simple course correction.Why would they? There's no need. Destiny has made course corrections before.


You know fully well that if Eli's plan was to follow the corridor and simply not stop that his description to Young would have clearly indicated such as would the dialog between Chloe and Rush."We're not leaving the path, just skipping part of it." You can stick to your guns, I'll stick to mine.


Yea right, Destiny just happened to stop in the middle of nowhere right where a remote energy signature just happened to be detected.And it stopped in the middle of nowhere to be attacked, to let the crew fire randomly into space, and so forth. You're making motives where none exist.


I am no more making excuses than you are from your assumption in Faith that the unexpected stop indicated Destiny couldn't scan in FTL. Garhkal's explanation "what the builders did to make the sun/planet also shielded it" makes far more sense than yours. To doggedly maintain that an intergalactic starship that has nearly traversed the known universe doesn't have extremely sophisticated sensors is so patently ridiculous as to defy reason. I have proof, you do not. I can show that Destiny cannot scan in FTL. Your one example otherwise was disproven.


I am tired of your profound lack of intellectual honesty. We are done.Yet you cannot provide any proof to back up your assertions. How's that honest?

Rylor
May 17th, 2011, 09:10 AM
OR what the builders did to make the sun/planet also shielded it.

Yeah, I didn't consider that possibility. Good thought :)

garhkal
May 17th, 2011, 07:44 PM
I like your explanation far better than Destiny can't scan in FTL.

Thanks.. We know the ancients can 'shield' planets, along with entire galaxies. I figured the planet builders could do the same.


Yeah, I didn't consider that possibility. Good thought

Thanks again.

Mardus
June 9th, 2011, 03:36 AM
What Eli is suggesting is that Destiny skip the troublesome galaxy and not deviate from the course -- by sticking to the course set by seeder ships and not stopping along the way, because the drones are at every suitable star and any star system with a gate, along and around the path followed by Destiny. Eli did not program Destiny to deviate from the path set by seeder ships. Deviating from the path to find another suitable star showed that the drones are at every such star, too.

That Destiny was able to find out where the drones were, was because Rush et al tapped into the drones' communication network, which transmitted all data about where all the drones were in that galaxy, including the path that the drones inferred Destiny was using, and everywhere outside the path that had gates or a nearby suitable yellow star. The drones are now likely to include blue stars into the mix, too.

Destiny and seed ships can't make a long-range scan during FTL, that's why the seed ships had to go through all these galaxies and chart them out for Destiny by doing the actual exploring first. While not in FTL, Destiny's scan radius is probably only a certain not too large number of next solar systems, yet I'm not sure if the sensors are able to tell from afar how good every solar system's star is and whether a planet is good enough to sustain life, which is why the seed ships did all the legwork and put he gates on all the right planets in all the right solar systems. Drones occupy all the useful stars along Destiny's path.

Eli's supposed "new course" was not new, but that of Destiny, one that would skip the galaxy and all solar systems along the path, per data that Destiny already had from seeder ships. Eli never programmed any new course that would substantially deviate from the corridor set by seeder ships; Destiny knew itself what the course would be with and without stopping at the gates, so there really is no new course to speak of.

Eli just programmed Destiny to not make any stops along the path pre-set by seeder ships into the next galaxy, which means that Destiny could recalculate the course itself and fly along what would be a reasonbly straight trajectory, avoiding zigzagging to various solar systems with gates, and drones in those solar systems.

Eli also set Destiny to shut down services at a certain point of time when there was just enough energy left to make the long jump.

That Eli somehow programmed a "new" course himself for Destiny to circumnavigate the galaxy, is inference, because the course Destiny is taking now is the one it would have taken anyway, were there no crew on the ship and no drones trying to destroy her; Eli just set Destiny to fly as it would without an active crew.

I do agree with Destiny trying to preserve itself first and foremost, yet it's hard to say yet how it prioritizes its own survival over its crew's lives. That Destiny's AI is highly developed, is accurate in my book. I hope to see more of it in the future, despite cancellation and all.

garhkal
June 9th, 2011, 04:29 PM
I would also like to know if with Franklin Ginn and Perry uploaded, those 'preservation' protocols have changed any..