International law versus wraith

[WraithRichard]

I wanted to know other people's thoughts of this. We know that two characters mentioned that the Atlantis expedition violated the Geneva Convention concerning using a prisoner for medical testing.

There are several other laws that have been violated in other international laws, but only if one considers wraith to have the same rights as humans in war. But do they? They are not human in a physiological sense, they aren't human in a mental sense, they do not identify themselves as human or wanting to be human.

In a legal matter, do we consider any philosophy that they are human or an equal in mind? Would the laws concerning humans apply to them, or would the laws consider the wraith animals?

[General Jumper One]

I think the laws apply more to sentience than to "humanity"

[WraithRichard]

I think the laws apply more to sentience than to "humanity"

Even sentience that devours humans?

[General Jumper One]

Even sentience that devours humans?

yes

[WraithRichard]

yes

As long as that's also considered when it comes to legal procedures, not just philosophy.

[Flyboy]

Legally speaking, either could be argued to be a correct interpretation. Law, even International Humanitarian Law (to use the correct name) bases itself off precedent, convention, and agreement. There is, quite obviously, no direct precedent for the Wraith situation. As a result, the argument could effectively be made that by nature, International HUMANITARIAN Law applies solely to intra-species matters and should not be considered to be automatically the legal basis for some kind of Intergalactic Transpecies Law. Indeed, arguments could be made that IHL would not apply because it is an agreement between sovereign nation states, and NOT a defacto right that all humans have. Terror suspect prisoners are not, in reality, subject to the Geneva Conventions concerning the conduct of Prisoners of War because they do not represent the state as legitimate combatants, and are therefore not embroiled in legitimate combat and as such, are not afforded the appropriate protection as layed down by the 3rd Geneva Convention of 1929. Such an argument COULD be used as a precedent for why the Wraith should not be given the protection of IHL. At the same time, Wraith are quite obviously a form of combatant, so the 4th Geneva Convention of 1949 (governing the treatment of civilians) would most certainly not apply - unless the Atlantis team found a body of Wraith not directy linked to the Wraith 'war machine'. You could also down play the idea of a 'war' against the Wraith, further escaping the requirement to obey the Geneva Conventions, or indeed the Hague Conventions (restricting the use of certain weapons in warfare) because strictly speaking, the Wraith are not waging war, they are farming. Now, this could, strictly speaking, only be applied to Wraith actions against the worlds which they have historically culled, and not the Atlantis expedition, nevertheless, it's a good enough legal technicality that could, unfortunatly, permit the Atlantis team free reign from our laws of war.

That's the argument against.

In contrast, it could also be argued that the Wraith SHOULD be subject to the laws of war, and Atlantis personnel should obey IHL when engaging with the Wraith. There is less of a legal scope for this, because quite honestly, it would be very easy to say that the Geneva and Hague conventions were drawn up without consideration for such situations, and quite obviously it doesn't allow for its complexities. Nevertheless, it does not take a military or political mastermind to understand that IHL was drawn up for two reasons. Practicality and Morality. Adherance to the conventions affords a certain degree of stability within international affairs, and could, in theory have the same effect in intergalactic affairs. The conventions essentially provide protection to your own personnel by guaranteeing the protection of enemy personnel. This angle has become far more important now that the Atlantis team have essentially become personalised to the Wraith, they ARE individuals whos names are known. The Wraith recognise that these aren't just the usual food sources. In dealing with Atlantis personnel Wraith HAVE to act differently, because they do end up engaging in some element of diplomacy with Atlantis. Usually in the form of threats and hostage taking yes, but it is a very different situation to their usual farming methods. In such a situation, setting a precedent of humane treatment of Wraith prisoners of war and 'civilians' can help to improve diplomatic dialogues between the Wraith and Atlantis, in much the same way that Sheppard's humane treatment of Todd at their first meeting has positively benefitted Atlantis.

Beyond this, the moral reason is extremely important. All too often, simple minded fools argue for sacrificing morals in warfare for victory. History has taught us that such an approach does not work. Bombardment of enemy civilians, for example, a clear sign that the 'gloves are off' does NOT, in point of fact, move the enemy to surrender in horror, it encourages the enemy to seek new and more aggressive means of retaliating, escalating to a point where their gloves are also off, so to speak. There is no military advantage to immorality during war, it allows for physical harm to come to the enemy, but not to the extent that it brings victory any nearer. It also makes it less likely that the enemy will yield, having become convinced that the other nation will be merciless to them. In warfare, we must fight with the values and morals that we are fighting FOR. We must fight with the peace that we hope to achieve in mind at all times. One cannot hope for stable peace unless the war is conducted in such a way that will enable such peace to occur. Militant war mongers will argue to throw such principles away, 'Victory at all Costs!' and such rot. It neither works, nor is it desirable. In the Atlantis situation, it is vital that humanity adheres to its own rules. Particularly if they want to end with a stable situation. All out genocide against the Wraith is never moral, nor practical. It would not be as simple as the show makes out and would require far too many resources. If a smarter strategy is to be followed, then IHL must certainly be adhered to.


In short, I say yes. But there's a lot of legal holes that would allow for a 'no' answer.

[Skie]

You have put it together nicely.

Bombardment of enemy civilians, for example, a clear sign that the 'gloves are off' does NOT, in point of fact, move the enemy to surrender in horror, it encourages the enemy to seek new and more aggressive means of retaliating, escalating to a point where their gloves are also off, so to speak.[/B]

Most often true but didn't Japan surrender because of the two A-Bombs in WWII or was it maybe just sooner?

Anyway I would clearly say yes. Humanity and morality apply certainly for all sentient beings. Just imagine if we are in reality to encounter an alien race. We would all be very glad if the would exert humanity.
I would say the "The Golden Rule" or "ethic of reciprocity" is valid here: "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." Yes the wraith eat humans but do we not eat other life forms too? The Wraiths don't really have a choice, if they could eat something else they would. And the Wraiths honor morality as we have seen in CG and know the value of negotiation (BAMSR). Sure, not all Wraiths do but so do not all humans. But we are speaking about the Atlantis Expedition which serves as Ambassador for Earth, they just can't negate morality because it's suits them better to the current situation. Not to mention that Elizabeth Weir served as a successful diplomat on Earth.

[Flyboy]

You have put it together nicely.



Most often true but didn't Japan surrender because of the two A-Bombs in WWII or was it maybe just sooner?

It's increasingly widely accepted that the Japanese did not in fact surrender because of the Atomic bombs, but it provided an opportunity. There were three potential adversaries for Japan to surrender to, the Americans, the Russians, and the Chinese. Japan was already at the point were surrender was likely, Russia and China were effectively on their door step. The Russians had demonstrated a horrific lack of ethical treatment of civilians in their advance to Germany, raping and murdering with little regard, and in previous years, the Japanese had committed numerous attrocities to Chinese citizens, once again, raping and murdering of innocents etc... For the Japanese, surrendering to the Americans following the A-Bombs offered salvation from what would, in some minds, be a worse fate that would be brought on if the Chinese or Russians were able to march into Japanese cities. There's increasingly little evidence to coroborate the idea that the Atomic blasts themselves were causes of the decision to surrender.

Anyway I would clearly say yes. Humanity and morality apply certainly for all sentient beings. Just imagine if we are in reality to encounter an alien race. We would all be very glad if the would exert humanity.
I would say the "The Golden Rule" or "ethic of reciprocity" is valid here: "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." Yes the wraith eat humans but do we not eat other life forms too? The Wraiths don't really have a choice, if they could eat something else they would. And the Wraiths honor morality as we have seen in CG and know the value of negotiation (BAMSR). Sure, not all Wraiths do but so do not all humans. But we are speaking about the Atlantis Expedition which serves as Ambassador for Earth, they just can't negate morality because it's suits them better to the current situation. Not to mention that Elizabeth Weir served as a successful diplomat on Earth.

And the way to address that is to act with honour towards the Wraith.

[Skie]

For the Japanese, surrendering to the Americans following the A-Bombs offered salvation from what would, in some minds, be a worse fate that would be brought on if the Chinese or Russians were able to march into Japanese cities.

That sounds very reasonable to me. Unfortunately the civilian populations always suffers the most in a war. But I take it that the Japanese never officially commented on this question?

You know I always thought the only way to explain why Weir agreed to that experiment in PTW is that Weir never imagined Steve going to die. They always thought it would be a defense and not a weapon. But then again medical trails almost always have unexpected or not the desired outcomes at first. What I missed from this episode was a talk about the decisions leading to the incident that happened.

[Flyboy]

That sounds very reasonable to me. Unfortunately the civilian populations always suffers the most in a war. But I take it that the Japanese never officially commented on this question?

I don't believe they did. Though I could be wrong.

You know I always thought the only way to explain why Weir agreed to that experiment in PTW is that Weir never imagined Steve going to die. They always thought it would be a defense and not a weapon. But then again medical trails almost always have unexpected or not the desired outcomes at first. What I missed from this episode was a talk about the decisions leading to the incident that happened.

There was always a lot more room for discussion in SGA than that which they pursued...

[WraithRichard]

There was always a lot more room for discussion in SGA than that which they pursued...

Speaking of which, what if they immediately went the other way in regards to laws?

What if it was argued that legally the wraith didn't count as humans, but as animals, highly intelligent ones of course, but non-human living things? What laws would that bring up?

Does that solve any potential legal problems in regards to how wraith are treated, or does it bring up several legal questions regarding Todd at EATG? If space is legally international and you've been picking up native fauna from there, what are the rules on that? Don't the need to decide what kind of animal to classify them as (production, testing, pets)? Do they need to get licences?

Purely from a legal point, not that anyone would make them bother.

[General Jumper One]

I guess it would matter what your definition of "human" and "animal" are. Animals are less aware than humans are, and Wraith are as much aware of everything as much as we are.

[Skie]

There was always a lot more room for discussion in SGA than that which they pursued...

AMEN TO THAT! *deep sigh*

[magictrick]

I don't think that when the Geneva Convention was established they were considering how it would apply in a war against life-sucking aliens from another galaxy.

[WraithRichard]

I don't think that when the Geneva Convention was established they were considering how it would apply in a war against life-sucking aliens from another galaxy.

It was, however, established in order to prevent unforeseen wars that would hold consequences and situations they had not imagined.