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nx01a
May 6th, 2011, 07:02 PM
...us. Well, them. Er... the descendants of the alt. Destiny crew.

Reasoning:
1) We've only encountered them in this galaxy, where the alt. Destiny crew ended up.
2) As pointed out in this episode, the different colonies that branched out from Novus advanced at different rates... so some might be even more advanced than others.
3) The Novans that left seemed to have different views on how to run things than those who stayed behind, hence the exodus. Who knows how Brody's little fanatics eventually decided to defend themselves against The Big Bads of this galaxy?
4) It would just be really cool if humans ended up repeating the mistakes of the Ancients and unleashed our own brand of destruction [whether intentional or not] on a galaxy far, far away, destruction that ended up causing problems for their 'ancestors' aboard Destiny and creating their own existence via temporal paradox.
5) Had the series continued, Destiny's descendants could have become antagonists for Destiny's crew, their own ancestors. :)

That's the origin of the drones I'd like to see. Thoughts?

Vanek26
May 6th, 2011, 07:34 PM
I get the feeling they are older than the Novus colony would have been to reach that tech level.

tricky
May 6th, 2011, 07:47 PM
But, if they ARE from Futura, a people who believed Destiny was coming to save them, why are they attacking Destiny? Surely they could have put in a "if you see this ship, do not attack but lead it back go Futura territory" subroutine?

escyos
May 6th, 2011, 08:15 PM
Again with this!?

Novus did not exists until WE tried to go back to Earth and the drones existed before that. Your idea is a paradox.

nx01a
May 6th, 2011, 08:42 PM
Again with this!?
Novus did not exists until WE tried to go back to Earth and the drones existed before that. Your idea is a paradox.I didn't realize this idea had surfaced before. Sorry for posting on it in another thread. :S

As for a paradox... That's exactly my point. It would be interesting if Destiny's crew created the exact threat that lead them to be stranded in the past in the first place.

As for the drones attacking Destiny... Maybe the drones were simply carrying out their main programming to seek out new life and new civilizations and destroy them and took some time to recognize Destiny for what it really was. The blockade of stars might mean that the drones have figured out that it's Destiny they're dealing with.

escyos
May 6th, 2011, 08:45 PM
As for a paradox... That's exactly my point. It would be interesting if Destiny's crew created the exact threat that lead them to be stranded in the past in the first place.

The alternate Destiny encountered the drones BEFORE they went back in time. That Destiny never found Rush waiting for them so it never happened before. If it never happened before and the drones were built by Novus then that crew would have never encountered them.

General Jumper One
May 6th, 2011, 08:49 PM
to seek out new life and new civilizations and destroy them

sounds just like Star Trek's mirror universe :D

Shylodog
May 6th, 2011, 09:05 PM
The alternate Destiny encountered the drones BEFORE they went back in time. That Destiny never found Rush waiting for them so it never happened before. If it never happened before and the drones were built by Novus then that crew would have never encountered them.

This is the crux of the argument. How do you know the Alt Destiny encountered the drones before? We know OUR Destiny encountered them. WE then stumbled upon Alt Destiny falling into the sun. It was never, ever mentioned that Alt Destiny, nor her crew ever encountered the drones before they tried to dial from a Sun.

Just sayin...

morbosfist
May 6th, 2011, 09:12 PM
This is the crux of the argument. How do you know the Alt Destiny encountered the drones before? We know OUR Destiny encountered them. WE then stumbled upon Alt Destiny falling into the sun. It was never, ever mentioned that Alt Destiny, nor her crew ever encountered the drones before they tried to dial from a Sun.

Just sayin...Alt Destiny attempted the dialing under the same circumstances. Without those circumstances, they'd have never attempted it in the first place. The point of divergence is the dialing attempt. Everything before that remains.

Shylodog
May 6th, 2011, 09:17 PM
Or so we're left to assume. I hate to sound obstinate about it, but we'll never know for sure.

We've seen in SG1 that alternate timelines can lead to the same result.

escyos
May 6th, 2011, 09:23 PM
This is the crux of the argument. How do you know the Alt Destiny encountered the drones before? We know OUR Destiny encountered them. WE then stumbled upon Alt Destiny falling into the sun. It was never, ever mentioned that Alt Destiny, nor her crew ever encountered the drones before they tried to dial from a Sun.

Just sayin...

The timelines were identical up to the point where they approached the star, Rush, the supplies, the damage to destiny. No information is contradictory to this so we assume their is none.

Shylodog
May 6th, 2011, 09:36 PM
The timelines were identical up to the point where they approached the star, Rush, the supplies, the damage to destiny. No information is contradictory to this so we assume their is none.

Because we weren't, nor will we be, told any different. There was a timeline where Sam never joined the military. Daniel was never asked to decipher a cartouche. Teal'c was not enlisted by Jack to rise against Apophis. Yet they still managed through completely different sets of circumstances to fly a puddle jumper back in time to urge the uprising against Ra. There is absolutely no evidence that the alternate timeline encountered the drones, but it's possible that during their travels they discovered along the same timeframe that they could dial from inside the sun and thus creating the alternate timeline. And they never did adequately explain how Destiny was able to travel in time.

If everything happened the same as before, then the Alt Destiny should have encountered an Alt, Alt Destiny. It's enough to make one's head hurt.

morbosfist
May 6th, 2011, 09:44 PM
Alt Destiny was the first instance. It wouldn't encounter itself. Once it travel back, it altered time, and from then on there was a second Destiny for the earlier one to encounter.

Gollumpus
May 6th, 2011, 09:47 PM
...us. Well, them. Er... the descendants of the alt. Destiny crew.

Well, the folks on Novus built very "primitive" spacecraft capable of transporting folks to the nearest colony sometime in the last 30 years. I'm assuming that as this was the largest (and original) colony it would have the biggest population and the largest industrial base.

So, taking into consideration the time it would take to manufacture something as large as a drone fleet (multiple motherships and thousands of drones), what kind of level of technology and industrial base would they have to possess to do something like this? And if they did have the tech level to build the drones, why would they be afraid of their neighbors?

Now if you're talking about an alternate, alternate universe cultures created in some sort of weird sci-fi loop then all bets are off. I would hope that such is not the case.

regards,
G.

Shylodog
May 6th, 2011, 10:09 PM
Alt Destiny was the first instance. It wouldn't encounter itself. Once it travel back, it altered time, and from then on there was a second Destiny for the earlier one to encounter.

I get that. We're supposed to accept that. My question is then, what was so different about Alt Destiny's timeline that they didn't encounter another Alt Destiny falling into the sun? What could have been so wildly different, since we're expected to assume that everything that led up to that point was supposed to be the same?

That's why I say it's entirely possible that Alt Destiny never encountered the drones. But again, we'll never know for sure now will we?

escyos
May 6th, 2011, 10:42 PM
Because we weren't, nor will we be, told any different. There was a timeline where Sam never joined the military. Daniel was never asked to decipher a cartouche. Teal'c was not enlisted by Jack to rise against Apophis. Yet they still managed through completely different sets of circumstances to fly a puddle jumper back in time to urge the uprising against Ra. There is absolutely no evidence that the alternate timeline encountered the drones, but it's possible that during their travels they discovered along the same timeframe that they could dial from inside the sun and thus creating the alternate timeline. And they never did adequately explain how Destiny was able to travel in time.

If everything happened the same as before, then the Alt Destiny should have encountered an Alt, Alt Destiny. It's enough to make one's head hurt.

Why exactely you referenced a timeline that we know worked out, i havent the slightest. But from what you wrote you are comparing an alternate REALITY to something that happend in out TIMELINE.

Until we are shown otherwise the timelines were exactely the SAME. There is NO evidence to say that they were any different until they went back in time, there is however evidence that it was the same:

1. The circumstances leading up to the time travel were the same.
2. Destiny was damaged enough that the ship couldn't handle dialing Earth

By your logic I can say that there is no evidence that rain is made of Goat magic yet there is evidence it is water, but i simply refuse to believe that.

morbosfist
May 6th, 2011, 10:54 PM
I get that. We're supposed to accept that. My question is then, what was so different about Alt Destiny's timeline that they didn't encounter another Alt Destiny falling into the sun? What could have been so wildly different, since we're expected to assume that everything that led up to that point was supposed to be the same?

That's why I say it's entirely possible that Alt Destiny never encountered the drones. But again, we'll never know for sure now will we?Flawed logic. There was no event which led Alt Destiny to meet its past self. That had not happened yet. Alt Destiny initiated it. You're stuck on the idea that the alt crew must have existed before, but it didn't. Just like time, there was no Kino on the planet the first time. They all acted normally. The act of the Kino going back changed time.

Shylodog
May 7th, 2011, 12:18 AM
Why exactely you referenced a timeline that we know worked out, i havent the slightest. But from what you wrote you are comparing an alternate REALITY to something that happend in out TIMELINE.

Until we are shown otherwise the timelines were exactely the SAME. There is NO evidence to say that they were any different until they went back in time, there is however evidence that it was the same:

1. The circumstances leading up to the time travel were the same.
2. Destiny was damaged enough that the ship couldn't handle dialing Earth

By your logic I can say that there is no evidence that rain is made of Goat magic yet there is evidence it is water, but i simply refuse to believe that.

You say I referenced an alternate reality, but I actually referenced an alternate timeline (since folks 'round these parts insist there is a difference). SG(not)1 did not change an alternate reality, they went back in time and fixed what SG1 prime broke, allowing SG1 to pick up after the video tape apparently no worse for wear except there is fish in Jack's pond now.

I referenced it to show that in timelines, the course of events don't have to be the identically the same for an event to happen (in this case Jack, Sam and Teal,c go back in time to save the day). Just like the drones didn't HAVE to exist for Destiny to be at that star at that time when they chose to try to dial home. Nor do we have any explicit evidence to prove that the drones existed for them. In this episode, OUR crew stumbles upon the Destiny that is falling into the sun. Frankly, we have no knowledge whatsoever of their history except the moments that led up to them dialing Earth, and drones were never mentioned.


Flawed logic. There was no event which led Alt Destiny to meet its past self. That had not happened yet. Alt Destiny initiated it. You're stuck on the idea that the alt crew must have existed before, but it didn't. Just like time, there was no Kino on the planet the first time. They all acted normally. The act of the Kino going back changed time.

This is the fun of time travel episodes. You never know how things can change up the story. You made my point for me, actually. There was no event which led Alt Destiny to meet itself. Which could translate that the drones did not exist until the paradox had been created in the first place. But we'll never truly know because the story teller won't be able to tell us.

escyos
May 7th, 2011, 12:24 AM
You say I referenced an alternate reality, but I actually referenced an alternate timeline (since folks 'round these parts insist there is a difference). SG(not)1 did not change an alternate reality, they went back in time and fixed what SG1 prime broke, allowing SG1 to pick up after the video tape apparently no worse for wear except there is fish in Jack's pond now.

you said:

There was a timeline where Sam never joined the military. Daniel was never asked to decipher a cartouche. Teal'c was not enlisted by Jack to rise against Apophis. Yet they still managed through completely different sets of circumstances to fly a puddle jumper back in time to urge the uprising against Ra.

The part in bold is an alternate reality, the other is an alternate timeline, yet you matched them.


I referenced it to show that in timelines, the course of events don't have to be the identically the same for an event to happen (in this case Jack, Sam and Teal,c go back in time to save the day). Just like the drones didn't HAVE to exist for Destiny to be at that star at that time when they chose to try to dial home. Nor do we have any explicit evidence to prove that the drones existed for them. In this episode, OUR crew stumbles upon the Destiny that is falling into the sun. Frankly, we have no knowledge whatsoever of their history except the moments that led up to them dialing Earth, and drones were never mentioned.

So basically you refuse to listen to reason, fair enough.

ALSO (rebut this!) HOW COME THE NOVANS DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE DRONES!? At least two different colonies did not know and the most advanced (Novus) showed NO sign of damage to technology.

Trinary
May 7th, 2011, 01:44 AM
My best guess is the drone will be made by the original Rush. Before the original Destiny blown out in that star, He managed to download his consciousness and some destiny database into repair bot and dial up the gate before destiny completely exploded.

Rush (repair bot) arrived a 1000 years in the past in a planet near the Ursini's home world. Then he built himself an automated machine cities and started a war with nearby civilization as he sees them as an obstacles in achieving his master plan. He end up making a fleet of command ship and drones to destroy all civilizations and becoming evil bot Rush that feared by many as been told in the Novusians prophecy for a thousand years.

rushy
May 7th, 2011, 01:50 AM
Again with this!?

Novus did not exists until WE tried to go back to Earth and the drones existed before that. Your idea is a paradox.

They went back in time 2000 years! Meaning that Novus was there when the Stargate was uncovered in 1928! Meaning that Novus was there when Ra took human form!

rushy
May 7th, 2011, 01:51 AM
Oh, and I think that Kinsey invented the drones.

escyos
May 7th, 2011, 02:04 AM
They went back in time 2000 years! Meaning that Novus was there when the Stargate was uncovered in 1928! Meaning that Novus was there when Ra took human form!

Umm you are aware that they didn't go to Earth, right?

KEK
May 7th, 2011, 03:39 AM
It wouldn't be a paradox for the Novans to have created the drones, but there is another reason why we know they never - the drones have hyperdrives, the Novans did not.

nx01a
May 7th, 2011, 06:16 AM
The Novans didn't, but one of the other colonies might have been far more advanced.

qingdom
May 7th, 2011, 06:21 AM
They went back in time 2000 years! Meaning that Novus was there when the Stargate was uncovered in 1928! Meaning that Novus was there when Ra took human form!

If you're gonna go there, I'll toss in that Baal had been going back in time again and again and again to god knows where just to plant those subspace satellites that broadcasts solar flare telemetry.

Paradox indeed. It's not the paradox that gives me a headache. It's the concept of 'undoing' the timeline that drives me bonkers. Because in one dimension or another, the timeline had to have carried through. So there's really no 'undoing' the timeline per-se... just another branch in dimension created.

Gollumpus
May 7th, 2011, 06:28 AM
The Novans didn't, but one of the other colonies might have been far more advanced.

Yeah, that seems a bit too far advanced to me. If you have that kind of capability compared to your neighbors then you do control the area.

The only way I could see any Novans having anything to do with seeder ships is this: a group arrived on a planet and discovered an active gate to a semi-derelict seeder ship. It's gate was previously out of range of Destiny's gate when the crew first came through that area.

They gated to that ship and over time retro-fitted it to be the first drone mother ship. It then started to produce drones and additional mother ships rather than stargates.

Personally, I ain't buying it. :P

regards,
G.

rushy
May 7th, 2011, 06:53 AM
Umm you are aware that they didn't go to Earth, right?

Yeah...

Shylodog
May 7th, 2011, 10:01 AM
The part in bold is an alternate reality, the other is an alternate timeline, yet you matched them.

So basically you refuse to listen to reason, fair enough.

ALSO (rebut this!) HOW COME THE NOVANS DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE DRONES!? At least two different colonies did not know and the most advanced (Novus) showed NO sign of damage to technology.

Do you not remember geeky Sam Carter who thought her comment about reproductive organs being on the inside is a bad comment? The one with glasses and a dorky look getting it on with Jack in the puddle jumper in ancient Egypt? That is an alternate timeline, not reality.

I don't refuse to listen to reason, you refuse to broaden your imagination. I never said they never ran into the drones, I simply provided a possible alternative (which I think some others may agree could have happened, given all the comments about how the Novans could have created the drones) and shown how we were never told otherwise. You state we HAVE to assume something, and I say we should never assume anything. Seeing as we aren't writing the story and all.

You asked me to rebut it, so here goes... The two characters who made comments about the drones were born on the Colony World. Well after losing communications with Novus. Maybe Novus was never the target, nor the Tanerans. Maybe the drones were developed on a world colonized by the Tanerans centuries ago that lost contact with Novus specifically to defend against the evil demon Rush and his Chariot to Hell Destiny, and something went wrong. I don't really buy into that scenario, but it's possible that the writers could have gone in that direction. Who knows? Anything could have happened.

Shadow_7
May 7th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Except that Alt. Destiny dialed earth, not because they were under attack, but because they had a working theory and could. Up until the point that the theory didn't work (except for Telford).

Bear in mind that these other worlds might have traits (or creatures) that could have enhanced the human genus. Double the life span or whatnot, which gives a bit more opportunity for development. And since Brody founded futura, and didn't seem to get hitched and have kids in the Alt. Timeline, increased lifespan might have been a field of interest for his colony. You can do a lot when you live longer than 50 to 70 years and remain productive all those years.

With a little DNA and cloning tech, you could create thousands of Eli's so he could spend his days doing research and not playing school marm. Lots of potential for many different scenarios that'll never be realized in a format other than print, if ever.

geddarkstorm
May 7th, 2011, 03:12 PM
Does anyone remember when the Tolan people were supposidly harvested from Earth and planted on their world? I was pretty sure it was made out to seem that they advanced extraordinarily fast on their own. The drones are easily Tolan level tech (ion canons anyone?), so it could still be possible to be from the Novans.

There are other types of time loops than an N-snap. The alt. Destiny and ours could actually still be in the same timeline. The Novans always existed because Destiny always got duplicated by a 12 hour split.

Shylodog
May 7th, 2011, 05:49 PM
There are other types of time loops than an N-snap. The alt. Destiny and ours could actually still be in the same timeline. The Novans always existed because Destiny always got duplicated by a 12 hour split.

That's what I'm proposing. Also, who's to say "OUR" Destiny just wasn't the first one to encounter Alt Rush and Alt Destiny? The possibilities really could be endless.

escyos
May 7th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Do you not remember geeky Sam Carter who thought her comment about reproductive organs being on the inside is a bad comment? The one with glasses and a dorky look getting it on with Jack in the puddle jumper in ancient Egypt? That is an alternate timeline, not reality.

Well i thought you were talking about the reality from "There But for the Grace of God", my bad. Besides we KNOW that those two timelines are different, we SAW the differences PLUS there were consequences that led to that timeline being that way, namely Ra taking the Stargate from Earth. We have seen no differences as of yet:


ALTERNATE RUSH
"Shortly after we dropped out of FTL, Colonel, you asked me for a number. I told you ten plus two."
That happened in our timeline

Destiny was in the same condition as the alternate Destiny, which indicates that it too had been attacked by the drones.


I don't refuse to listen to reason, you refuse to broaden your imagination. I never said they never ran into the drones, I simply provided a possible alternative (which I think some others may agree could have happened, given all the comments about how the Novans could have created the drones) and shown how we were never told otherwise. You state we HAVE to assume something, and I say we should never assume anything. Seeing as we aren't writing the story and all.

If you say we never assume anything then why are you assuming that the timelines were different before they went back in time?


You asked me to rebut it, so here goes... The two characters who made comments about the drones were born on the Colony World. Well after losing communications with Novus. Maybe Novus was never the target, nor the Tanerans. Maybe the drones were developed on a world colonized by the Tanerans centuries ago that lost contact with Novus specifically to defend against the evil demon Rush and his Chariot to Hell Destiny, and something went wrong. I don't really buy into that scenario, but it's possible that the writers could have gone in that direction. Who knows? Anything could have happened.

When it comes down to it you are NOT offering any evidence to support your theory, I however am - check the scoreboard.

escyos
May 7th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Yeah...

Your comment made it sound like Novus was there when the Stargate was uncovered and Ra came to earth. (Which is impossible because Ra took human form 10,000 years ago.)

Kanten
May 7th, 2011, 06:36 PM
The alternate Destiny encountered the drones BEFORE they went back in time. That Destiny never found Rush waiting for them so it never happened before. If it never happened before and the drones were built by Novus then that crew would have never encountered them.

Really, wouldn't that be how the paradox would work though? It wouldn't be the first time in the SG universe that it's happened, Hammond knew about SG-1 going to 1969 before they actually did it.

Shylodog
May 7th, 2011, 08:12 PM
When it comes down to it you are NOT offering any evidence to support your theory, I however am - check the scoreboard.

Oh geeze. Is that what this, a contest? Tell you what, I'll remove my self from the equation and not play your game. There is no score when we're debating fiction where anything can happen and anyone can come back from the dead. Peace.

escyos
May 7th, 2011, 10:11 PM
Oh geeze. Is that what this, a contest? Tell you what, I'll remove my self from the equation and not play your game. There is no score when we're debating fiction where anything can happen and anyone can come back from the dead. Peace.

That was a metaphor for:
~My argument = 1 (evidence)
~Your argument = 0

My5tiC4L
May 7th, 2011, 10:32 PM
Impossible. Drones have FTL/ hyperdrive technology. Novans did not have that technology or else they would have put them in their transport ships.

DarkandBright
May 8th, 2011, 12:14 AM
JM gave an answer - might have been discussed in another thread, I did not re-read everything. Okay, its JM, but I would believe him here:

cat4444 writes: “Hey, any chance we’ll find out anything more about the origin of the drones that keep attacking Destiny or was that something that would have been followed up in Season 3 had there been one?”

Answer: It may well have been a story we could have touched on in season 3. Although we never really sat down and discussed, the backstory for the drones I originally included in Resurgence – that was later cut for time – talked about the fact that they were a weapon created by one side in an interstellar conflict. It proved all too effective, wiping out the enemy, then turning on its creators and wiping them out as well. As for who these creators were – I guess we’ll never know.

At least,

its not the Novans...

rushy
May 8th, 2011, 01:14 AM
Does anyone remember when the Tolan people were supposidly harvested from Earth and planted on their world? I was pretty sure it was made out to seem that they advanced extraordinarily fast on their own. The drones are easily Tolan level tech (ion canons anyone?), so it could still be possible to be from the Novans.

There are other types of time loops than an N-snap. The alt. Destiny and ours could actually still be in the same timeline. The Novans always existed because Destiny always got duplicated by a 12 hour split.

IT WAS NOT THE NOVANS because they wouldn't build weapons of mass destruction if they KNEW what they were gonna be. + it couldn't have been them because the writers couldn't explain it.