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View Full Version : Have the people of Novus ascended?



Duneknight
April 23rd, 2011, 02:52 PM
The planet looked empty, could they have ascended? I can't think of why they would all die like that in 30 years. There should be some of them still there had that been the case. But if they ascended then that would explain things, actually no it won't still worth pondering on though. And how about those god-like aliens from "faith" planet? Maybe its them. Also is it at all possible to link what happened in novus to the "message in the universe"?

SaberBlade
April 23rd, 2011, 03:25 PM
They'd have to know how to ascend, and it took the Ancients over 50 million years to learn how to do it, assuming they had knowledge of it before they left their home galaxy. Unless an Ancient showed up and helped them, I can't see it happening.

Brian
April 23rd, 2011, 03:32 PM
Why is it so hard for people to believe people die? It happens around our planet every day. I think they explained pretty thoroughly why there where no people left on the planet.

kirmit
April 23rd, 2011, 03:36 PM
Why is it so hard for people to believe people die? It happens around our planet every day. I think they explained pretty thoroughly why there where no people left on the planet.

There'd be bodies though, wouldn't there? At the very least, bones.

eonflux
April 23rd, 2011, 03:43 PM
Why is it so hard for people to believe people die? It happens around our planet every day. I think they explained pretty thoroughly why there where no people left on the planet.

If you watched the ep you would know there was no evidence of them dying. They found the massive shelter. It could be they are all dead in there.

SGU is littered with speculative eps not knowing what happend to who and how. If they cant find evidence what happend it could be they somehow have been relocated by the planet builders or something else.

Puddle-Jumper
April 23rd, 2011, 04:12 PM
No..They didn't ascend at least it would be extremely unlikely. As far as we've seen Destiny is far beyond the reach of the ascended ancients and all the humans at our point in the evolutionary scale we've seen evolve had help from Oma or someone else.

Its far more likely they evacuated through the gate, but then the question arises of why didn't they contact their colonies.. the same could be said for evacuation via ship, like the city we saw didn't have any signs of damage. Perhaps the gate was destroyed suddenly so they built underground bunkers until the atmosphere became unbreathable and moved there.... or they could have moved off world but an explosion from the planet destroyed the gate on both ends... At any rate can't wait for new ep :)

blueray
April 23rd, 2011, 04:18 PM
my guess is that something killed them, or took them. though ascension is possible i doubt that is it. what ever it is i imagine it will be discussed in the next episode.

Ian-S
April 23rd, 2011, 04:22 PM
There'd be bodies though, wouldn't there? At the very least, bones.

under all the volcanic ash, yes.

Duneknight
April 23rd, 2011, 04:40 PM
the planet builders couldve saved them and maybe built for them a new planet?

Puddle-Jumper
April 23rd, 2011, 05:31 PM
the planet builders couldve saved them and maybe built for them a new planet?

I dunno.. if the planet builders were that generous they would have saved the hope peeps and not sent them back and died.. though sending them back was generous enough I suppose..

Maybe the hope planet was built for the Novus humans? It seemed perfect.. though the winter was pretty bad

garhkal
April 23rd, 2011, 05:36 PM
under all the volcanic ash, yes.

After 30 yrs.. those bodies would be bone and nothing else by now.

jsonitsac
April 23rd, 2011, 06:59 PM
After 30 yrs.. those bodies would be bone and nothing else by now.

Or it could be a Pompeii situation where the bodies were covered in ash casts.

Nth Chevron
April 23rd, 2011, 08:15 PM
I'll say it again, 2000 years is not long enough for humans from Earth to physiologically evolve into anything close to unaided Ascension.

As was stated above, it took the Ancients 50 million years.

2000 years is nothing compared to that.

N.C

Rylor
April 24th, 2011, 12:51 PM
Maybe they evacuated through the Stargate before it was rendered inoperable. We'll find out soon enough ;)

Duneknight
April 24th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Maybe they evacuated through the Stargate before it was rendered inoperable. We'll find out soon enough ;)

oh some of them probably did, unless the stargate got damaged all of a sudden by the drones. stargates are meant to survive volcanoes and such.

Wayston
April 24th, 2011, 01:37 PM
read or watch "the road", if you think people don't just die like that in 30 years.

If the volcanic winter was severe and planetwide, then nobody who didn't plan for the most extreme scenarios would be left alive. It's not impossible that the nations would have contingency plans that would allow small government communes to survive that long. It should be theoretically possible to create an underground bunker powered by something fairly sustainable like a nuclear/geiser/hydro-electric powerplant and a hydroponics bay with artificial lighting. Think the vaults from Fallout without the mutations from the fallout :).

Of course chances are they didn't plan for the size of the catastrophe that hit them, they could have figured their bunkers would only need food for a couple of years, they figured they could leave at any time through the stargate etc. I doubt there would be contingency planning on that long term scale on present day earth for example.

Basically after 30 years the planet's ground surface biosphere will be nothing but a distant memory. There should still be natural life on the planet (earth was once a giant frozen billiard ball and yet life survived in a few of the remaining hotspots), just nothing very sentient.

A lot could have happened to the bodies. They could be covered under the layer of snow we saw, they could be covered under volcanic ash beneath the snow, they could have been chewed/torn to bits by animals or cannibals. A lot of them could be indoors in their homes (suffocated by fumes, frozen inside or whatever).

The Destiny
April 24th, 2011, 02:13 PM
My guess is they evacuated. Not everything has to be linked to the planetbuilders :)

The reason they didn't contact their colony(ies) could be because they were too busy evacuating, possibly to one of the other colonies, or perhaps the empty city they saw was futuran and maybe futura at that time controlled the gate as well, while the tangarans are all trying to survive a nuclear winter without gate-acces.

We'll just have to wait and see. I can't wait. :D

Duneknight
April 24th, 2011, 02:34 PM
My guess is they evacuated. Not everything has to be linked to the planetbuilders :)

that right there is why this show didn't click with people.

Nth Chevron
April 24th, 2011, 02:50 PM
How the hell do you figure that?

Everything isnt exorably or inexorably linked to some really cool aliens that have the abilities to either move planets and stars or create them.

SO WHAT.

They are not the be all and end all of SGU and is definitely NOT why people didnt tune in.

JHC.

N.C

Duneknight
April 24th, 2011, 02:53 PM
How the hell do you figure that?

Everything isnt exorably or inexorably linked to some really cool aliens that have the abilities to either move planets and stars or create them.

SO WHAT.

They are not the be all and end all of SGU and is definitely NOT why people didnt tune in.

JHC.

N.C

you didnt fully understand what i meant. im talking about the broader picture. things should be linked.

Keeper
April 24th, 2011, 05:47 PM
the civilisation was divided into two NUCLEAR-armed camps. ascension is pretty much out the window at this point, unless someone like oma desala is intervening again - these aren't a pure, innocent people like abydos, being wiped out by some malevolent beast because they're in the way.

nor, indeed, are these people enlightened enough to accept that people have made honest mistakes in the past.

no, these people are choosing aggression, against each other, because, through whatever they've gotten in their histories, they've mis-interpreted rush as either messiah or demon, depending on their nation and what they've been taught over the years. they've rejected the message of peace laid down by the ancestors, and focussed on their disputes.


as for what actually happened - no idea. but ascension has been clearly indicated in the past to be achieved through extreme inner peace, or ascended intercession - not by pointing a gun to the other guy's head. even the replicators seemed aware of the need for peace - even if most of them were prepared to give up on the idea eventually.



as for linking stuff together - lots of stuff in sg1 and atlantis both wasn't inherently linked, yet both shows were successful. sgu has plenty of reasons for failing to catch viewers, but not linking enough things together isn't going to be a major thing, as that can take a long time to connect. example - how long did it take for sg1 to link ancients+gatebuilders+ascended? it's also taken 13ish? years to explain the 9th chevron - something that has had people guessing from day 1. neither issue broke the franchise :p

tinerin
April 24th, 2011, 06:15 PM
the civilisation was divided into two NUCLEAR-armed camps. ascension is pretty much out the window at this point, unless someone like oma desala is intervening again - these aren't a pure, innocent people like abydos, being wiped out by some malevolent beast because they're in the way.

I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Being pure and innocent is only a requirement for ascension when an Ancient, like Oma, is helping you to ascend (Daniel Jackson actually said something like this in SG-1 but I can't remember what episode). Anubis was able to ascend by tricking Oma into believing he was pure and innocent and Adria was able to ascend on her own; how do you even explain the Ori ascending cuz they obviously weren't pure and innocent?

Keeper
April 24th, 2011, 06:52 PM
I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Being pure and innocent is only a requirement for ascension when an Ancient, like Oma, is helping you to ascend. Anubis was able to ascend by tricking Oma into believing he was pure and innocent and Adria was able to ascend on her own; how do you even explain the Ori ascending cuz they obviously weren't pure and innocent?
sorry, re-reading it i understand what you're saying - i took the abydos people a bit out of context. however, i'll refer now to the community sheppard stayed with - at least for the pure part. they had to wise up a bit, and face fears, but they were a pure people who missed a step along the way.



the ori - based on what i've seen anyway - were a very pure race, capable yes of violence - but they were defensive of faith. in the real world, those defending fundamentalist faith can act in ways that may run contrary to the spirit of the faith. however, take away the threat - in the case of the ori, the lanteans LEFT them alone - and you return them to the relative innocence of no wars, no external influences, and just their own faith to follow.

i don't believe it was ever established that the ori ascended when the lanteans left - and from ark of truth, it's clearly established that the lanteans didn't ascend straight away either. since one of the guys has a notebook outlining plans for a stargate, we can safely assume that they had quite some time to go before they ascended - milky way and pegasus networks took time to build, and destiny's mission seems to have been planned from a relatively early stage too. in fact, seedships seem to have an older model of the gates, suggesting that the milky way and pegasus networks are v2.0 or later - which itself would have taken time to develop.

thus, with lantean development as a rough (and, i realise, rather inaccurate) baseline to follow, it can be assumed that while intelligent, and even relatively wise, the ori were certainly pure in their faith - regardless of how it may have been misguided - and innocent in many ways too. they seemed to think they were alone again in the universe, until daniel and vala showed up to announce our presence to them. add in that they developed a greater understanding of ascension AFTER it occurred - it was only then that they realised they could use power from others to empower themselves.

the roots of ori faiths stay strong, in that toman, when learning the book of ori, was taught about the peaceful nature - something that comes out when he debates with a prior as to the meaning of a particular text. the text implies something like the ori embraced a village in peace, when one who had walked away from the ori repented and turned back to them. the prior re-interprets it that the ori wiped out the village for its part in harbouring evil - but the ordinary congregations of the ori are learning goodness from the faith. that the ascended ori have twisted and reinterpreted the faith to suit their needs, and impart this knowledge to the priors as needed, only strengthens the good roots of the faith - if it was inherently violent, people would be aware of that in their normal learnings.

give any human a massive amount of power over the lives and deaths of others, and it's pretty hard to say who will be corrupted by it and who won't. the ori received a massive amount of both power and understanding in ascension - and desired more. they gave way to the temptation after ascension rather than before.



Adria didn't exactly 'ascend' on her own either - she was programmed genetically by the ori to be capable. essentially, she was one of their own, masquerading as a human. for sg1, the ascended rulebook has become very murky - even when they get an ascended to help with the plauge, he's only able to hang around for a short time, and seems incapable of ascending again afterwards (though when he built a stargate in sam's basement from spare parts, he descended to human form at least for a brief time, and retained a good chunk of knowledge in the process.) adria went through a birth and growth process, but it appears that she did so only to sidestep the formalities of the rulebook - she wasn't simply descended, she was human after a fashion, though she had enough power and knowledge that she was a little more than even a prior.



anubis studied a lot, and tricked oma - but he couldn't get there on his own, oma made that pretty clear. if you're not good enough to ascend alone, you shouldn't be ascending, was the view held by the ancient ascendeds - oma broke the rules, but she did so believing that good people were losing out on the chance because they weren't informed in the first place.

tinerin
April 24th, 2011, 07:10 PM
How can faith be a requirement for ascension when faith is a very arbitrary thing? Who the hell is deciding who is "pure and innocent? The Ancients didn't even have a faith as Orlin said the Ori were the religious ones and the Ancients just believed in science.

Adria DID ascend on her own even though he body was genetically altered for her to be able to achieve ascension. It's no difference than what Anubis attempted to do with Khalek or what the Ancient ascension device did with McKay. With reqards to Orlin and the plague, he broke the ascended Ancient's rules by descending to help us with the plague and that is basically why he wasn't able to ascend again.

Everything we've seen in the franchise says that there are only two components to natural ascension: a evolution/genetic component that enables a body to be physically capable of ascending and the mental ability to perform the actual ascension. It has absolutely nothing to do with faith or being "pure and innocent" unless the Ancients are involved. Even that colony that Sheppard found only believed that being "pure and innocent" was a requirement for ascension because that is what the Ancient writing told them.

Keeper
April 24th, 2011, 08:09 PM
faith, in and of itself, isn't a requirement - just like science isn't. but when excluding the other, they do become pure - and where only one 'faith' (where science, in a way, can be considered a faith - specific teachings, and formulas laid down for doing things) is followed, there's nothing else to infringe upon them. or you could rename 'pure' to 'inner peace' if you really want.

the rules of any particular faith are arbitrary and subjective - but most have a few core beliefs in common. even in science, there are certain rules upheld in certain fields - doctors, for example, take an oath to 'do no harm' (see carson beckett when dealing with, iirc, the hoffan drug - or was it michael? been a while since i watched atlantis.) the ancients, while they had weapons tech, had managed to re-seed life in the milky way, and weren't handing out their version of phasers to the uneducated - they were sticking to non-aggressive interference, as best they could.



the ancients - and indeed even the ori - were portrayed as being a unified people - something humans have never achieved, because there are so many different faiths, ways of life, whatever you want to call it. take away all the animosity however, and what you get is purity, non-aggression, or whatever term you feel suits you - both the ori and the ancients managed to unite what remained in their groups, and achieve ascension. but we have never been told of anyone who ascended with blood on their hands, with the sole exception of anubis - who actually had to trick his way up. the replicators who try to reject violence likely had access to the entire lantean database - and even if they didn't they've had all the time since whatever time they were abandoned to research it themselves - so when they believe that they need to avoid bloodshed, it's likely not just a bit of writing on a wall for sheppard's community either.



adria was, plain and simple, an ori disguised as a human. she was never entirely human, and so she wasn't ascending from a human perspective, at least not entirely, since she was only returning to her true form - her human form was created essentially by the power and intervention of the ori.

her change was very different from khalek - we don't know if his could work at all, and even if it could, it wasn't entirely by himself anyway - anubis was using an ancient lab, to try to create ascension, which - in my book - counts as intervention, even if it was only his dear old dad.

as for the ascension device - it didn't work on mckay. he wasn't able to calm himself, clean out the dust in his mind, and see that wide open field that sheppard was jabbering on about half the time. he even got his mind to the 'ascension zone' for a split second before he died - so the mental ability is questionable. hard to know - the zone is apparently where comatose patients tend to be, yet khalek was able to remain concious while trying to ascend, so thats a very grey area.

orlin had broken the rules before, to appear to sam when he built a stargate in her basement. he was able to get back then - so i suspect, when he helped with the plague, it was at least somewhat because he was helping with ascended knowledge to fight a weapon provided to humans by other ascended beings. or it could be an example of writer inconsistencies - i admit he's not the best reference point, because of that.



perhaps the terms used themselves aren't the clearest - as you say, who decides what is pure? unfortunately the concepts we have to deal with are merely human, and not entirely universal - but i doubt very much that anyone could show a definition of nuclear-armed camps in Common Descent being 'pure' in any sense, and considering the tension between them, their mental states were highly unlikely to be capable of the 'ascension zone.'

however, until we're shown a group of ascended beings who got there - naturally - with violent pasts, or were using their power to take advantage of or do harm to others even before ascension, i'm prepared to accept that such things are - as implied by the franchise - inherent blocks to ascension. i stand by my earlier assertation that the ori followed their faith without interference from the ancients for a very long time before they ascended, and therefore don't consider them to have been taking advantage of the appropriate worshippers until after they ascended.

of course all of this is my own opinion and interpretation of what has been shown - none of it is written in stone anywhere.

The Destiny
April 24th, 2011, 08:32 PM
things should be linked.

but not necessarily to the planetbuilders :)

D Toccs
April 24th, 2011, 08:52 PM
Paraphrased - "people have to be pure to ascend" - Paraphrased.

You've got it wrong dude. The Ori didn't ascend because they were a "united people" and therefore pure. The Ori ascended because over millions of years they naturally evolved to the point that they could, the same applies for the Ancients.
Their individual beliefs or whether or not they were good people had no bearing at all on their ascension.

The only requirements for natural ascension are 90% synaptic activity in the brain and enough control to mentally perform the ascension.
Being good and pure only comes into play when Oma Desala is involved, and then it is only used as a way for her to judge if a person is worthy of her breaking the rules to ascend them.

The reason that Orlin couldn't re-ascend the second time was because he had irreparably damaged his brain by trying to hold on to the ascended knowledge as it faded. His brain was literally too damaged to facilitate the ascension process.

Gollumpus
April 25th, 2011, 11:28 AM
Why is it so hard for people to believe people die? It happens around our planet every day. I think they explained pretty thoroughly why there where no people left on the planet.

Yup. It's a "Mr. Kurtz, he dead" moment. If they do find anyone, they'd be living in some sort of shelter, perhaps underground, and just about to die out. Also, having them around would just complicate the story.

regards,
G.

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 11:59 AM
Once you are sufficiently advanced physiologically, it doesnt matter if you are good or evil, you can Ascend, like Adria did in 10x19 SG-1, only when your getting a leg-up do you need to be a good person, or make like one of the locals :P

N.C

The Destiny
April 25th, 2011, 12:41 PM
Ascension is basically the ultimate step in evolution. And I don't think the process of evolution cares if you're good or evil :)

It'd matter when Oma helped you though.

lordofseas
April 25th, 2011, 05:00 PM
The planet looked empty, could they have ascended? I can't think of why they would all die like that in 30 years. There should be some of them still there had that been the case. But if they ascended then that would explain things, actually no it won't still worth pondering on though. And how about those god-like aliens from "faith" planet? Maybe its them. Also is it at all possible to link what happened in novus to the "message in the universe"?

Did you miss the "super-volcano" explanation?

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 05:01 PM
Or just plain death from starvation of having to live underground for 30 odd years?

N.C